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The Official *England's Passage to Paris 2016* Thread

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The Official *England's Passage to Paris 2016* Thread - Page 2 Empty The Official *England's Passage to Paris 2016* Thread

Post by FootballLight Mon 30 Mar 2015, 5:44 am

First topic message reminder :

Sorry 24, I'm thinking of the World Cup again.

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Post by sportform Wed 01 Apr 2015, 6:27 am

GSC wrote:And the less said about Phil Jones the better. Shouldn't be an automatic squad member
I don't understand why you would play Jones at the base on the diamond when you have Carrick in the squad?

Wrong tactics, too narrow, too made short passes, no movement, awful passing...
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Post by GSC Wed 01 Apr 2015, 6:30 am

Id play Carrick if only because neither Delph or Henderson have the ability to positively pass a ball.

I have no idea what Phil Jones adds to the team to be honest. Poor mans David Luiz.
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Post by GSC Wed 01 Apr 2015, 6:34 am

Hopefully the last time we see that formation. An utter failure of an experiment
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Post by Guest Wed 01 Apr 2015, 6:36 am

Said Roy was clueless years ago. Woeful first half, formation a mess. Phil Jones is so bad, its just embarrassing. Not too confident on Clyne either at the top level. I like that Italian no.14 in the centre of the park, looks a talent.

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Post by GSC Wed 01 Apr 2015, 6:37 am

Its a friendly John. The experiment failed, but that's why you try it in a friendly.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 01 Apr 2015, 6:40 am

The formation would work perfectly against the three at the back if they were just braver, the DM needs to push on to make it almost 4-3-1-2 so the 1 is the free man not the DM.

Passing is too slow and safe also.
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Post by sportform Wed 01 Apr 2015, 6:40 am

GSC wrote:Hopefully the last time we see that formation. An utter failure of an experiment
I would put Townsend on the left for Delph, push Walcott wide right, Kane and Rooney through the middle.
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler Wed 01 Apr 2015, 7:00 am

Little better since the changes

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Post by NickisBHAFC Wed 01 Apr 2015, 7:17 am

As expected Walcott has been utter rubbish again. Just like every game for England.

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Post by Stella Wed 01 Apr 2015, 7:20 am

NickisBHAFC wrote:As expected Walcott has been utter rubbish again. Just like every game for England.

What about the hat-trick vs croatia? He was ok that night.

He does look like he needs some more minutes though.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 01 Apr 2015, 7:22 am

HOW DOES HE KEEP DOING THAT HE'S RUBBISH
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Post by NickisBHAFC Wed 01 Apr 2015, 7:23 am

TOWNSEND!!!!!! What a goal!!!!

Why is Townsend a very good player for country but shocking for tottenham?

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Post by GSC Wed 01 Apr 2015, 7:24 am

Fabulous strike from Townsend.

Now if he actually did stuff like that a bit more often he might make a squad on merit
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Post by NickisBHAFC Wed 01 Apr 2015, 7:25 am

Tbf to him, he never plays badly for england just shocking for tottenham. Very strange.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 01 Apr 2015, 7:36 am

Much better second half once we'd taken off the runners and put people who can pass on
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Post by NickisBHAFC Wed 01 Apr 2015, 7:37 am

Stella wrote:
NickisBHAFC wrote:As expected Walcott has been utter rubbish again. Just like every game for England.

What about the hat-trick vs croatia? He was ok that night.

He does look like he needs some more minutes though.
Forgot about that game that happened in 2008. 7 years later one would hope that he still isn't making the team based on that.

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Post by GSC Wed 01 Apr 2015, 7:39 am

Average performance. Neither side really got out of 2nd gear. Much better in the 2nd half but not hard
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Post by Stella Wed 01 Apr 2015, 7:40 am

NickisBHAFC wrote:
Stella wrote:
NickisBHAFC wrote:As expected Walcott has been utter rubbish again. Just like every game for England.

What about the hat-trick vs croatia? He was ok that night.

He does look like he needs some more minutes though.
Forgot about that game that happened in 2008. 7 years later one would hope that he still isn't making the team based on that.

Possibly based on being one of England's best attacking players, when fit, which looked like the problem tonight.
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Post by NickisBHAFC Wed 01 Apr 2015, 7:44 am

Stella wrote:
NickisBHAFC wrote:
Stella wrote:
NickisBHAFC wrote:As expected Walcott has been utter rubbish again. Just like every game for England.

What about the hat-trick vs croatia? He was ok that night.

He does look like he needs some more minutes though.
Forgot about that game that happened in 2008. 7 years later one would hope that he still isn't making the team based on that.

Possibly based on being one of England's best attacking players, when fit, which looked like the problem tonight.
One of England's best attacking players? I've heard it all now.

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Post by mystiroakey Wed 01 Apr 2015, 7:49 am

I am warming to carrick..

But jag was the surprise of the night..

Rooney missed a number of decent chances..

Fair result.

Annoying game. Italy play like pulis.. But with better players.

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Post by GSC Wed 01 Apr 2015, 7:52 am

Walcott is a very good player. But hasn't been fit for a while now
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Post by super_realist Wed 01 Apr 2015, 7:55 am

NickisBHAFC wrote:As expected Walcott has been utter rubbish again. Just like every game for England.

Can't be too harsh on Walcott, I think you'd struggle to name a single England player who had reproduced club form for country form in the last 10-12 years. Perhaps the odd performance in 20, but there really hasn't been a top notch player in a long long time.

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Post by Guest Wed 01 Apr 2015, 8:14 am

I was really only interested in Kane's performance, everything else is pointless because players will change & formations by 2016. Chiellini had KANE in his pocket pretty much all night, think his lack of pace will catch up with him on this stage.

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Post by mystiroakey Wed 01 Apr 2015, 8:18 am

Yes but he pulled defenders out. And created space for rooney who should have scored a couple. He was double timed and fouled constantly.. I thought he did Okish.

Provided a few decent final balls when he got the chance and had a couple of shots on target..

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Post by mystiroakey Wed 01 Apr 2015, 8:20 am

The importance of Wilshire and carrick being fit for the tourny has really come to light anyway. So at least we have learnt that.

I can't think of another that can play tht role effectively.

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Post by sportform Wed 01 Apr 2015, 8:25 am

I would like to see Walcott up front, he makes good runs, gets into good positions and would create space for Rooney. One, he force the centre backs to drop back because of his pace creating space in the whole, two, he makes runs across goal dragging centre backs out of position for Rooney, midfielders to run into.

The trouble tonight was a) Kane was was alongside him and took spaces up and b) we were far too slow moving the ball forward in the first half.

I would have played Kane or Walcott up front with Rooney but not both. We also had no width which didn't help either striker.
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Post by sportform Wed 01 Apr 2015, 8:30 am

LiamB wrote:I was really only interested in Kane's performance, everything else is pointless because players will change & formations by 2016. Chiellini had KANE in his pocket pretty much all night, think his lack of pace will catch up with him on this stage.
The formation didn't help Kane at all. Far too crowded up top with Walcott and Rooney, we were too narrow and too slow. I don't know why Hodgson didn't copy Spurs' line up. I would have like to have seen Kane up top, with Rooney in behind (like Eriksen) and Walcott and Townsend wide (like Chadli, Townsend). The diamond formation didn't get the best out of anyone.
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Post by Duty281 Wed 01 Apr 2015, 4:32 pm

Formation pretty poor. England couldn't get width, which is a strength of theirs, and were far too compact to successfully break a poor Italy side down.

Pleased that Harry Kane played average - hopefully the media can release their expectation on him now, just a bit. Walcott barely got a chance - moved to the tip of the diamond after around half an hour, which obviously won't suit him. Delph looked completely out of his depth at this standard, and Jones wasn't much better. Impressed by the Jag, oddly enough.

Didn't learn much other than the diamond doesn't work (4-2-3-1 please, Roy, or 4-3-3), and that Townsend and Barkley will probably be utilised as impact players when the time comes.

Oh and Portugal lost to the Cape Verde Islands at home! Laugh

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Post by LivinginItaly Wed 01 Apr 2015, 6:16 pm

Watching the game in Italian with Italian commentators it was very interesting to hear views about the English team from a non English perspective. The following is the gist of their opinions:

1. Jones is a liability at his best position of central defence let alone as a holding midfielder.

2. The starting formation made absolutely no sense.

3. Carrick should start every game as the defensive midfielder

4. England pass sideways too much, lack penetration, pass with no pace on the ball.

5. England should build the team around Barkley, who they rate as an incredible talent and game changer.

6. Roy Hodgson is not very good, although this was also the opinion before he became England manager.

I'm not saying i agree with everything they were saying but it makes interesting reading.


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Post by Stella Wed 01 Apr 2015, 6:23 pm

5. Is he not better as a sub, at present, who can come on and inject legs and life into our game?

I agree with 3.
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Post by LivinginItaly Wed 01 Apr 2015, 6:32 pm

I agree with you about Barkley but it was interesting to hear high highly they rate him given that he hasn't exactly made a huge impact yet at a world wide level.

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Post by Duty281 Wed 01 Apr 2015, 6:32 pm

1 and 2 I agree.
3 would just cause 4.
5 is a maybe, but he presently lacks consistency for his club.
6 I disagree. England have made good steps forward under Hodgson.

I think England's tempo last night was poor, but the game was being played at friendly-pace.

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Post by LivinginItaly Wed 01 Apr 2015, 6:43 pm

I think the opinions surrounding Barkley perfectly encapsulate the difference between English and Italian mentalities regarding life in general. We talk about consistency they talk about creativity. They focus on the one moment of genius out of twenty opportunities, whilst we complain about the other 19 moments.

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Post by Stella Wed 01 Apr 2015, 6:47 pm

LivinginItaly wrote:I think the opinions surrounding Barkley perfectly encapsulate the difference between English and Italian mentalities regarding life in general. We talk about consistency they talk about creativity. They focus on the one moment of genius out of twenty opportunities, whilst we complain about the other 19 moments.

Nonsense, give me Delph, Henderson, and Jones Very Happy
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Post by LivinginItaly Wed 01 Apr 2015, 7:03 pm

Now that is a midfield combination to put fear into the opposition

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Post by Stella Wed 01 Apr 2015, 7:09 pm

I see your point, but to be fair, over the years, Italy haven't been great to watch, with their play acting, and negative tactics. I enjoyed watching them in 82, but not really since.
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Post by mystiroakey Wed 01 Apr 2015, 7:51 pm

re 3 and 4- wilshire can also play that role.

5- you might as well say the same about sterling or even a fit ox

6- no he is pretty decent

2- i totally agree with

1. i think he is getting better, but the way Jag played last night we might not need jones or smalling to start.

I dont know what is going on at everton this year- but their two players really did make the biggest impact last night..


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Post by Mike Selig Wed 01 Apr 2015, 8:34 pm

I think there is quite a bit of negativity for an away draw in Italy in which England I thought if anything outplayed the opposition overall.

I agree that the formation at the start was too narrow.

Delph had a poor match, and I don't think Phil Jones can play CDM in today's game. Carrick and Henderson (who I rate) must start.

I thought Kane did OK. Not great, but OK. He was often double-marked, but showed good physicality and linked up well with Rooney a couple of times. I wouldn't want to damn him based on that performance.

Barkley I like a lot, but at times he is also very lazy in defence. He almost gifted Italy a match-winning chance by giving the ball away and then not tracking back. I would like to find a way of fitting him into England's starting XI but not sure how.

Overall I thought it was "encouraging".

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Post by mystiroakey Wed 01 Apr 2015, 8:37 pm

I think hendersons level significantly dropped against italy (a good passing midfield team) compared to his recent liverpool and england games. So I am not 100% sold on him

but the reality is - we had 60 % possession and we created more chances and more shots on target in the 90 and we wasted 40 minutes of the game with a very experimental if not pointless system.

for now barkley remains an impact sub- remembering we have sterling that should be starting in the number 10 or head of a diamond.

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Post by Ent Wed 01 Apr 2015, 9:31 pm

Italy aren't great, then only team they beat at the world cup was england.

2nd in their group - drawn last 2 qualifiers.

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Post by GSC Wed 01 Apr 2015, 9:36 pm

To be honest neither Delph or Henderson made any impact on the game.
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Post by dummy_half Wed 01 Apr 2015, 9:37 pm

A game of two halves

First half England were woeful. Criticisms of the slow tempo and negative lateral passing were entirely justified. We need at least one player in midfield who can make an incisive pass in to the front three, which the starting trio of Jones, Henderson and Delph absolutely failed to do. Add to that that Clyne was being out-paced down his side so couldn't risk getting forward (and that his passing is sloppy) and we were really limited.

Carrick made a big difference, in that the ball started to go forward much quicker, allowing Rooney to stay further up the pitch and stretch the Italian defence, and then Barklay's pace and ball carrying ability really swung the game in our favour.

Positives - Carrick, Barklay, Gibbs (not great, but good), Walker (his pace was an improvement over Clyne, even if he is prone to some defensive lapses), Jagielka.

Negatives - Delph (gave the ball away cheaply far too often), Henderson, Jones in DM (was more comfortable at CB, but even there not outstanding). First half tactics were way too negative.

Overall, I'd give us about 3/10 for the first half and 7/10 for the second.

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Post by Guest Wed 01 Apr 2015, 10:16 pm

I have the same fear that Clyne will be found out like Baines was at the WC, when the quality really steps up. The fact Walker is the backup, compounds my worry in that position, it was Walker who fouled up towards he end & gave Antonelli that chance that went just wide. Delph was truly abysmal, it's performances like that, that just invite the return of Wilshere (who I'm not a fan of & he's always injured), so more worries. As for Barkley, he's a impact sub & no more. The foreign media might praise him but he has no final ball, so his runs end up being pointless, he also gives away the ball in dangerous positions, in a nutshell he's raw & a liability in the middle of the park, no wonder he's been saying he sees himself as a striker, long term.

Think once the formation is resolved, I'd still have concerns over the fullbacks & one central midfield position & who partners Carrick & Henderson.

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Post by Guest Wed 01 Apr 2015, 10:54 pm

When Jon Flanagan is fit he should be considered if he can regain last season's form (some niggling part of me thinks he might have some Irish in him though, still let the FA figure it out)

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Post by Roller_Coaster Thu 02 Apr 2015, 12:06 am

Not seen him much but is Stones worth a shout yet at CB? After a few years Jones & Smalling look little more than the level at Blackburn and Fulham that they left behind. Outrageous and untrue statement alert - My dog would be better at CB than them two, and he's been dead 4 years!

Right back worries me. Walker is appalling IMO and Clyne may be one for the future but needs some coaching first I think.

Didn't think a massive amount of Gibbs at LB but don't really want Baines there anymore and Shaw needs some more coaching too.

For all the talent (and we do have some) in midfield and up top, the back 3/4/5 (or whatever) is the basis for not losing and we don't have it nailed by a long chalk. At the minute against a half decent side I feel we need to score 3 to win it.

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Post by Duty281 Thu 02 Apr 2015, 12:15 am

Carrick should have been England's Pirlo. Laugh

At least that is some of the rubbish being written after a decent game last night. Amusing how Carrick did not seem so adept at being England's Pirlo the last time it mattered (against Poland in 2013, when England had no control in midfield).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/england/11506098/Michael-Carrick-should-have-been-Englands-Andrea-Pirlo-but-it-is-not-too-late.html

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 02 Apr 2015, 1:57 am

I like Barkley, we looked 100 times more threatening in there with him because he's not afraid to try and take someone on, play a risky pass. Of course this has its negatives, and he has a long way to go but he's a very promising young player, who at the moment is perfect to play that impact sub role.
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The Official *England's Passage to Paris 2016* Thread - Page 2 Empty Re: The Official *England's Passage to Paris 2016* Thread

Post by Liam Thu 02 Apr 2015, 2:14 am

Barkley has great potential, there's doubt about it and comparisons will probably be made to how he's quite similar to how Rooney was at that age. Last night he did well but could have played rooney in for a 1 v1 but didn't get his head up. Something like that can be erased over time as he matures. For now, he's a great impact sub.

I think for England to succeed in tournaments with the promising squad they have (I think the Euro's is a tournament too soon for these players) they need to play with width. They haven't the technical ability to beat teams through the middle, but they have pace in abundance and can also be a very good counter attacking team if they play the right formation. I'd look to go with a 4-3-3, with a midfield trio of Carrick (cdm), Henderson (rcm) and if fit, wilshere (lcm). You have Carrick who can provide the calming influence in midfield but someone who can dictate play and get it out wide quickly. You also have the energy and attack mindedness of Henderson and Wilshere. Then have Walcott/Ox and Sterling on the wings. They'll give full backs nightmares out wide and then Rooney up top, where he can lead the line as he's done superbly for Utd recently.

If England need to change things, they can easily drop one of the three midfielders and bring on a sturridge or a kane and go 2 up top or bring sturridge on as a left/right forward and stay with the 4-3-3. However I still think England's biggest concern is their defence. I don't think Jageilka is up to international standard and Jones and Smalling are only just finding some form at utd. Cahill is obviously seen as the key man at the back now but even he, after a good start, has struggled at thhe highest level this year. Baines has also underperformed this year and Shaw/Gibbs have been underwhelming. WOuld have liked to have seen Bertrand given a go. Clyne is very promising, but there is absolutely no back up for him really.

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The Official *England's Passage to Paris 2016* Thread - Page 2 Empty Re: The Official *England's Passage to Paris 2016* Thread

Post by Guest Thu 02 Apr 2015, 2:36 am

Duty, it's not surprise. Before the game it was the media proclaiming Prince Kane as a world beater, jizz everywhere. He has a shocker, so the media go elsewhere & they land at Carrick 'could have been Pirlo'. If people think by now going with Carrick we will suddenly be transformed into a good side, with plenty of possession, they need to come back down to reality. This wasn't even a good Italian side, they were experimenting too, the guy I sat next too didn't even know one of their midfield starters, so for Carrick to come on & 'look good' was no surprise.

As it's been pointed out, our defence looks woeful. All our CB's look scared on the ball & look like accidents waiting to happen. Usually those accidents get found out a tournaments & not in embarrassing qualifying groups or friendlies.

I also worry about how many goals we will score with the current first choice of Roy - Welbeck, Rooney & Sterling. Apart from Rooney, Welbeck isn't a natural finisher, regardless of qualifying form & we all know Sterling can't hit a barn door, so the reality of us having a poor defence & needing to score more than they do to win, doesn't look good.

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Post by Stella Thu 02 Apr 2015, 2:44 am

When is Sturridge due back?
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