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Pro12 value - the facts

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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 9 Apr - 18:37

First topic message reminder :

Broadcasting revenue. As revealed today by the CEO of PRW:

The French Top14 = £50m
Aviva Prem = £40m
Pro12 = £11.5m.

That is quite simply unsustainable if you want to be a professional rugby team in domestic Northern Hem rugby. Somethign has to change for the celtic teams, and quickly.

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Post by SecretFly Fri 10 Apr - 12:52

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:Why would the English want the Welsh to join the AP?

What would they get out of it?

We've done this a million times. They probably wouldn't. So take it to another thread, this one's about the pathetic ability of the pro12 to make any money.

They make roughly the same money per capita as the big Nations make.   Italy being the untapped source of any REAL expansion - but then, most people on these threads never seem to want the poor bloody Italians Wink  Yet they're the key to genuine mucho bucks if we encouraged them to take a true interest.

But I guess the non-Celticness of them makes 'villagers' constantly turn the nose up at their very presence.

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Post by beshocked Fri 10 Apr - 12:53

LordDowlais wrote:Beshocked, bringing those players back will do absolutely sweet fa for the league, the Irish provinces have NEVER played their central contracted players that often in the league, and with these new DC players that we are getting back will have limits on their games as well, but I am hearing that the amount of games for each DC player might be a bit vague to say the least.

Disagree. I think it would be a huge boost for the Italian teams to have Italian hero, Sergio Parisse in the Pro12.

Even if these guys play a handful of games it's better than zero.

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Post by LordDowlais Fri 10 Apr - 12:53

Don Alfonso wrote:Why would the English want the Welsh to join the AP?

What would they get out of it?

You do realise that the English clubs have a massive and long history with the Welsh clubs don't you ? This is why the LV cup was kept as the English sides wanted to keep the historic rivalry between them.

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Post by Don Alfonso Fri 10 Apr - 12:58

LordDowlais wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:Why would the English want the Welsh to join the AP?

What would they get out of it?

You do realise that the English clubs have a massive and long history with the Welsh clubs don't you ? This is why the LV cup was kept as the English sides wanted to keep the historic rivalry between them.

Then how come you aren't playing with them now in their main competition?

And since this is a thread about money and business - what would the financial incentive be for something that woudl be logistically more convoluted and involve sharing money amongst more bodies?

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Post by LordDowlais Fri 10 Apr - 12:58

beshocked wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Beshocked, bringing those players back will do absolutely sweet fa for the league, the Irish provinces have NEVER played their central contracted players that often in the league, and with these new DC players that we are getting back will have limits on their games as well, but I am hearing that the amount of games for each DC player might be a bit vague to say the least.

Disagree. I think it would be a huge boost for the Italian teams to have Italian hero, Sergio Parisse in the Pro12.

Even if these guys play a handful of games it's better than zero.

Yeh, great for the Italians, but the money men want to see the british and Irish stars as well, and in this regard the Irish have always treated the league with contempt, I could probably count how many games BOD played in the league on one hand. Now with the Welsh players on DC I doubt we will see many Welsh internationals either, but as I said earlier, the amount of games they will not be able to play might be a bit over exaggerated.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Fri 10 Apr - 12:59

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:Why would the English want the Welsh to join the AP?

What would they get out of it?

We've done this a million times. They probably wouldn't. So take it to another thread, this one's about the pathetic ability of the pro12 to make any money.


So the success of a league is judged on how much money they make?

Your thread is becoming a farce because I can't tell if you are saying the teams aren't good enough because they aren't making enough money.

The fact that pro12 teams seem to be doing quite well in Europe, 50% of the international teams involved in the league seem to be doing quite well, the league is competitive, the clubs are competitive in Europe, I'm at a bit of a loss as to what the purpose of this thread is?


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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 10 Apr - 13:00

SecretFly wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:Why would the English want the Welsh to join the AP?

What would they get out of it?

We've done this a million times. They probably wouldn't. So take it to another thread, this one's about the pathetic ability of the pro12 to make any money.

They make roughly the same money per capita as the big Nations make.   Italy being the untapped source of any REAL expansion - but then, most people on these threads never seem to want the poor bloody Italians Wink  Yet they're the key to genuine mucho bucks if we encouraged them to take a true interest.

But I guess the non-Celticness of them makes 'villagers' constantly turn the nose up at their very presence.

Per capita means sod all unfortunately. What good is per capita when there are 12 teams in each league in the UK?

All we know is at the moment , in terms of broadcast revenue, we are lagging behind by £30m to our nearest rivals the English.

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Post by Guest Fri 10 Apr - 13:01

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:It would be a huge mistake for the Scots or the Italians to bring in extra teams right now, LD. They couldn't afford it, and the Pro12 would need a second tier.

Well for a start they need them, Scotland and Italy are already making a joke out of the 6N, it is no surprise that the two nations with only two pro sides are the worst, they need extra teams, they are not poor countries they should be doing more, and more teams will be a bigger incentive to get more sponsors, if it means a second tier, then so be it.

I think it's a bit harsh on Scotland. Scotland were close at times, and Cotter needs a bit of time to work with the team.

Where are these extra teams going to get SQ players from? It isn't as if Embra are packed full of natives, so how are the SRU going to fill out 2 extra teams?

I would really like to see it, LD, as much as I would like to see a 2nd tier in the Pro12, but it's too early for that, even though Glasgow are now consistent and Embra appear to be turning a corner.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 10 Apr - 13:03

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
So the success of a league is judged on how much money they make?

Your thread is becoming a farce because I can't tell if you are saying the teams aren't good enough to they aren't making enough money.

The money is (largely) how the clubs are funded. The English money is 4 times the PRO12 money. So this suggests that the league is 4 times more valuable.

The pro12 will never be as valuable as the aviva prem (for a variety of reasons).

Therefore, the aviva prem is going to get richer. And the pro 12 will at best stagnate.

Therefore I'd rather be in a league which doesn't stagnate. The best chance of that - is one in which English teams are invovled in.

That way the clubs get more money.

The fact that pro12 teams seem to be doing quite well in europe, 50% of the international teams seem involved in the league to be doing quite well, the league is competative, the clubs are competative in europe, I'm at a bit of a loss as to what the purpose of this thread is?


Again, you've wandered into recent on the pitch matters. I'm trying to see a bigger picture here.

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Post by Sin é Fri 10 Apr - 13:08

Chunky Norwich wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
So the success of a league is judged on how much money they make?

Your thread is becoming a farce because I can't tell if you are saying the teams aren't good enough to they aren't making enough money.

The money is (largely) how the clubs are funded. The English money is 4 times the PRO12 money. So this suggests that the league is 4 times more valuable.

The pro12 will never be as valuable as the aviva prem (for a variety of reasons).

Therefore, the aviva prem is going to get richer. And the pro 12 will at best stagnate.

Therefore I'd rather be in a league which doesn't stagnate. The best chance of that - is one in which English teams are invovled in.

That way the clubs get more money.

The fact that pro12 teams seem to be doing quite well in europe, 50% of the international teams seem involved in the league to be doing quite well, the league is competative, the clubs are competative in europe, I'm at a bit of a loss as to what the purpose of this thread is?


Again, you've wandered into recent on the pitch matters. I'm trying to see a bigger picture here.

So your major gripe is about TV money, which there never will be enough of and is unsustainable. How about the Welsh clubs try and build up a decent fanbase. Take a leaf out of Glasgow's book and develop a fanbase. You can grow that year-on-year. Depending on TV money is not sustainable.


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Post by SecretFly Fri 10 Apr - 13:11

Chunky Norwich wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:Why would the English want the Welsh to join the AP?

What would they get out of it?

We've done this a million times. They probably wouldn't. So take it to another thread, this one's about the pathetic ability of the pro12 to make any money.

They make roughly the same money per capita as the big Nations make.   Italy being the untapped source of any REAL expansion - but then, most people on these threads never seem to want the poor bloody Italians Wink  Yet they're the key to genuine mucho bucks if we encouraged them to take a true interest.

But I guess the non-Celticness of them makes 'villagers' constantly turn the nose up at their very presence.

Per capita means sod all unfortunately. What good is per capita when there are 12 teams in each league in the UK?

All we know is at the moment , in terms of broadcast revenue, we are lagging behind by £30m to our nearest rivals the English.

That's all you got ...reality.  

You can't dream of having a bigger population to draw from - unless you dream about really encouraging Italy to become more involved and serious.
The reality is that if the USA took to club rugby seriously, they'd be making oodles more money than the French or English.  Bigger populations means bigger asking price for TV rights because of that bigger TV viewership for advertising and sponsorship.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 10 Apr - 13:14

Sin é wrote:

So your major gripe is about TV money

Well spotted. 3 pages in.

How about the Welsh clubs try and build up a decent fanbase. Take a leaf out of Glasgow's book and develop a fanbase. You can grow that year-on-year.

Do you really want to do a seasonal attendance average of Glasgow v the Welsh regions?

Depending on TV money is not sustainable.

? That is how the entire model of professional rugby is financed. What are you on about? Are you serious? Surely not?

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Post by Sin é Fri 10 Apr - 13:15

Chunky - Munster raised 2m euro for this season with a Patron Scheme. So far Munster have 30 fan patrons who have agreed to contribute up to 30K per year for 3 years. They intend on expanding this scheme to 200 patrons.

They also have Corporate Patrons (i.e., up to 100K per year for 3 years). Greencore (sponsor the Munster Academy). Marks & Spencers & Independent News & Media (Sponsor Musgrave Park for 100K per year) fit this category.

There is also a fund raising dinner in London every year now.
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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 10 Apr - 13:15

SecretFly wrote:

You can't dream of having a bigger population to draw from - unless you dream about really encouraging Italy to become more involved and serious.
The reality is that if the USA took to club rugby seriously, they'd be making oodles more money than the French or English.  Bigger populations means bigger asking price for TV rights because of that bigger TV viewership for advertising and sponsorship.

ABSOLUTELY!!!!

So why do you want to stay in a league with such a poor viewership?

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 10 Apr - 13:16

Sin é wrote:Chunky -  Munster raised 2m euro for this season with a Patron Scheme. So far Munster have 30 fan patrons who have agreed to contribute up to 30K per year for 3 years. They intend on expanding this scheme to 200 patrons.

They also have Corporate Patrons (i.e., up to 100K per year for 3 years). Greencore (sponsor the Munster Academy). Marks & Spencers & Independent News & Media (Sponsor Musgrave Park for 100K per year) fit this category.

There is also a fund raising dinner in London every year now.

And they still had to renegotiate their stadium debt, because they couldn't afford an agreed payment of £3m to their own Union.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 10 Apr - 13:23

So the overall theme is you want the Welsh to move to the AP? Not going to happen.

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Post by Sin é Fri 10 Apr - 13:23

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:Chunky -  Munster raised 2m euro for this season with a Patron Scheme. So far Munster have 30 fan patrons who have agreed to contribute up to 30K per year for 3 years. They intend on expanding this scheme to 200 patrons.

They also have Corporate Patrons (i.e., up to 100K per year for 3 years). Greencore (sponsor the Munster Academy). Marks & Spencers & Independent News & Media (Sponsor Musgrave Park for 100K per year) fit this category.

There is also a fund raising dinner in London every year now.

And they still had to renegotiate their stadium debt, because they couldn't afford an agreed payment of £3m to their own Union.

Yep, Munster own a 26K stadium, redeveloped in 2008 and owe about 9m on it to their parent company. They also redeveloped their 2nd 10K stadium which is paid for.

Not many English premiership clubs own even one 26.5K stadium, let alone two stadia. (Wasps probably are the only English premiership club that own their stadia and that is thanks to Irish owner and money).
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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 10 Apr - 13:27

No 7&1/2 wrote:So the overall theme is you want the Welsh to move to the AP? Not going to happen.

No, I want a tier based British and Irish League.

This, has to happen in the next 5 years or the celtic nations run the risk of cutting pro teams or even havign semi pro rugby.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 10 Apr - 13:28

Sin é wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:Chunky -  Munster raised 2m euro for this season with a Patron Scheme. So far Munster have 30 fan patrons who have agreed to contribute up to 30K per year for 3 years. They intend on expanding this scheme to 200 patrons.

They also have Corporate Patrons (i.e., up to 100K per year for 3 years). Greencore (sponsor the Munster Academy). Marks & Spencers & Independent News & Media (Sponsor Musgrave Park for 100K per year) fit this category.

There is also a fund raising dinner in London every year now.

And they still had to renegotiate their stadium debt, because they couldn't afford an agreed payment of £3m to their own Union.

Yep, Munster own a 26K stadium, redeveloped in 2008 and owe about 9m on it to their parent company. They also redeveloped their 2nd 10K stadium which is paid for.

Not many English premiership clubs own even one 26.5K stadium, let alone two stadia. (Wasps probably are the only English premiership club that own their stadia and that is thanks to Irish owner and money).

That debt would be massively eaten into if Munster were in a British and Irish league. You could have 3 stadiums!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 10 Apr - 13:30

B&I league not going to happen either.

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Post by thebandwagonsociety Fri 10 Apr - 13:30

gcBlues wrote:
Sin é wrote:After the hatchet job the Welsh regions and their fans did on the Pro12, its surprising that the tv rights are worth 11.5 pence. Of course the ridiculed Roger using his influence with the BBC as well to get a good deal. They could do better of course. They have to learn the hard way that if you rubbish the league you are playing in, people will not want to watch it on tv.

A quote another poster from a forum:

In Wales, where we are told that we dislike the Prolapse12, the TV contract is worth £3.5m. In Scotland it is worth £150k. In Ireland it is worth €900k.

We could, therefore, easily rise the "value of the product" to its Welsh "value" simply by doing one of two things:

1 - forcing the lazy blazers at the SRU and IRFU to properly sell TV rights
or
2 - force the Prolapse12 to ensure that broadcast revenues are kept per territory


Food for thought.

The money is divyed out equally... except for the tv revenue where because Wales brings in more revenue, they actually get to take that out for themselves (it isn't split up like sponsorship and other revenue centrally sold).

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 10 Apr - 13:31

No 7&1/2 wrote:B&I league not going to happen either.

That's the spirit. Vote for death.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 10 Apr - 13:36

Well you've set out a very good reason why it won't go ahead. The English league get all that money, why would they want to kick out some of their clubs and weaken themselves financially? The likelyhood would be that the Welsh clubs would be 2nd tier and still be struggling financially.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 10 Apr - 13:38

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well you've set out a very good reason why it won't go ahead. The English league get all that money, why would they want to kick out some of their clubs and weaken themselves financially? The likelyhood would be that the Welsh clubs would be 2nd tier and still be struggling financially.

Because when the Irish, Scots and Welsh are on their knees - the Six nations tv money would be in danger because the competition will be worthless as European rugby descends into oblivion. Then the English ears will Tinkywinky up.

I'd bite your hand off to be in that 2nd tier by the way.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 10 Apr - 13:43

6 nations has a fine history even back pre professional. There'll always be someone willing to pay, BT, Sky whoever.

Why would you want to be in that 2nd tier? The money would go to the top tier, maybe matching French money, but the money offered to the 2nd tier would likely be less than what the Pro 12 get as no one will pay top dollar for the 2nd best. You'd be in a much worse situation.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 10 Apr - 13:46

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Why would you want to be in that 2nd tier? The money would go to the top tier, maybe matching French money, but the money offered to the 2nd tier would likely be less than what the Pro 12 get as no one will pay top dollar for the 2nd best. You'd be in a much worse situation.

No one knows the details of what tier 1 and tier 2 would get. I'd just be happy playing better more attractive teams week in week out, and I guess gates would rise as a result.

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Post by SecretFly Fri 10 Apr - 13:49

Chunky Norwich wrote:
SecretFly wrote:

You can't dream of having a bigger population to draw from - unless you dream about really encouraging Italy to become more involved and serious.
The reality is that if the USA took to club rugby seriously, they'd be making oodles more money than the French or English.  Bigger populations means bigger asking price for TV rights because of that bigger TV viewership for advertising and sponsorship.

ABSOLUTELY!!!!

So why do you want to stay in a league with such a poor viewership?

You don't get it....................... per capita........................... add the Pro12 Welsh to the English and what?  The increase that the new League would get would be in proportion to the per-capita increase - the joining of England's 50 million to Wale's 2.something million.  The Welsh and English sides would still want their cut so the cut gets divided - more money, more division of it... not much of an increase for any if at all.

Plus..........  I'm happy.  Happy with the Pro12.  Happy with Provinces developing.  Happy with how Provinces lead into International.  I know you're not happy about any of that in a Welsh context but I'm happy about it in an Irish context. I can't not be happy to make you feel better. I can only be happy with what I see.  

Now what argument can you throw at me now that would see me hop on a bandwagon that would have Irish Provinces jump into a League that would have bulk control by RFU/PRL designed for specific English club and English National gains? They'd be the major players in every way - from rules to funding to TV deals.  
What argument could you make that would want me to let Irish Provinces join up to a relegation League that might see two or even three of them (or even all four) drop down to the lesser tiers and remain there for decades?  The promise of more money would make me crave that risk???  Two million more?  One million more?  Run those risks of destroying Irish rugby for a few million quid extra?

You stick to your Anglo/Welsh League and leave us to our own sense of what success means.  Success to me means winning - winning in League, winning in Europe and winning at International.  Now that's not always going to happen but that's the buzz - not the bank balances and 12 English players on a Leinster or Munster team in tier three of a B&I league.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 10 Apr - 13:51

Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Why would you want to be in that 2nd tier? The money would go to the top tier, maybe matching French money, but the money offered to the 2nd tier would likely be less than what the Pro 12 get as no one will pay top dollar for the 2nd best. You'd be in a much worse situation.

No one knows the details of what tier 1 and tier 2 would get. I'd just be happy playing better more attractive teams week in week out, and I guess gates would rise as a result.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 10 Apr - 13:52

I can't change your mind. You're institutionalised in your thought process.

That's why it'll hit hard when it happens.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 10 Apr - 13:53

Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Why would you want to be in that 2nd tier? The money would go to the top tier, maybe matching French money, but the money offered to the 2nd tier would likely be less than what the Pro 12 get as no one will pay top dollar for the 2nd best. You'd be in a much worse situation.

No one knows the details of what tier 1 and tier 2 would get. I'd just be happy playing better more attractive teams week in week out, and I guess gates would rise as a result.

Well it's pretty straight forward to know that TV companies will want the top tier and not be that bothered about the rest. The gap would grow larger financially. Thought that was what you were arguing against not the attractiveness of the teams you will face (which would be no more attractive)?

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 10 Apr - 13:58

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Well it's pretty straight forward to know that TV companies will want the top tier and not be that bothered about the rest. The gap would grow larger financially. Thought that was what you were arguing against not the attractiveness of the teams you will face (which would be no more attractive)?

The gap wouldn't grow larger, because the Tier 1 and 2 competition would be all inclusive in a tv deal etc

To put it crudely:

Now: Combined Pro12 and AP tv deals are worth £50m
B&I League : Worth £80m

Appreciate those figure are speculative but they need to be at this point.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 10 Apr - 14:06

It wouldn't be includsive though. It would be the top tier and 2nd tier. Where has there ever been a deal where the top tier doesn't get the vast majority of the money?

Say for arguments sake you're correct and for the 1st time you see the money spread across, you would see the English clubs who were in the AP getting less money; why would they go for it?

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Post by marty2086 Fri 10 Apr - 14:07

Chunky Norwich wrote:Broadcasting revenue. As revealed today by the CEO of PRW:

The French Top14 = £50m
Aviva Prem =  £40m
Pro12 = £11.5m.

That is quite simply unsustainable if you want to be a professional rugby team in domestic Northern Hem rugby. Somethign has to change for the celtic teams, and quickly.

If your going to quote someone you should include the whole quote especially when its pretty key to the point he was trying to make. Not like you Chunky to take things out of context

It is what it is. The other leagues are more established. They have been more stable, but there is a real drive there to realise the value of the Pro12.

The Top14 has been around for over 100 years, the AP about 30 and the Pro12 14 and only 4 in its current format. That's not to mention the AP and Top14 have signed exclusive deals which are more lucrative plus he doesn't mention if the figure covers Sky or all the rights signed in the different regions with different broadcasters

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 10 Apr - 14:08

No 7&1/2 wrote:It wouldn't be includsive though. It would be the top tier and 2nd tier. Where has there ever been a deal where the top tier doesn't get the vast majority of the money?

Say for arguments sake you're correct and for the 1st time you see the money spread across, you would see the English clubs who were in the AP getting less money; why would they go for it?

I'm not saying it will be spread across. I'm saying that it will be significantly more. Even for the 2nd tier.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 10 Apr - 14:10

marty2086 wrote:

The Top14 has been around for over 100 years, the AP about 30 and the Pro12 14 and only 4 in its current format. That's not to mention the AP and Top14 have signed exclusive deals which are more lucrative plus he doesn't mention if the figure covers Sky or all the rights signed in the different regions with different broadcasters

Perfectly valid reasons why the pro12 gets such a poor broadcast deal.
Doesn't address what to do about the shortfall.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 10 Apr - 14:11

Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:It wouldn't be includsive though. It would be the top tier and 2nd tier. Where has there ever been a deal where the top tier doesn't get the vast majority of the money?

Say for arguments sake you're correct and for the 1st time you see the money spread across, you would see the English clubs who were in the AP getting less money; why would they go for it?

I'm not saying it will be spread across. I'm saying that it will be significantly more. Even for the 2nd tier.

No it wouldn't, not for the 2nd tier. Why would a broadcaster pay a good amount for the 2nd best?

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Post by Sin é Fri 10 Apr - 14:13

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:Chunky -  Munster raised 2m euro for this season with a Patron Scheme. So far Munster have 30 fan patrons who have agreed to contribute up to 30K per year for 3 years. They intend on expanding this scheme to 200 patrons.

They also have Corporate Patrons (i.e., up to 100K per year for 3 years). Greencore (sponsor the Munster Academy). Marks & Spencers & Independent News & Media (Sponsor Musgrave Park for 100K per year) fit this category.

There is also a fund raising dinner in London every year now.

And they still had to renegotiate their stadium debt, because they couldn't afford an agreed payment of £3m to their own Union.

Yep, Munster own a 26K stadium, redeveloped in 2008 and owe about 9m on it to their parent company. They also redeveloped their 2nd 10K stadium which is paid for.

Not many English premiership clubs own even one 26.5K stadium, let alone two stadia. (Wasps probably are the only English premiership club that own their stadia and that is thanks to Irish owner and money).

That debt would be massively eaten into if Munster were in a British and Irish league. You could have 3 stadiums!

Eh, Saracens are in debt to the tune of 40 million Erm(which they say includes the redevelopment of a 10K stadium). Bath (who are also undergoing refurbishment) are losing 3m per annum.
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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 10 Apr - 14:13

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:It wouldn't be includsive though. It would be the top tier and 2nd tier. Where has there ever been a deal where the top tier doesn't get the vast majority of the money?

Say for arguments sake you're correct and for the 1st time you see the money spread across, you would see the English clubs who were in the AP getting less money; why would they go for it?

I'm not saying it will be spread across. I'm saying that it will be significantly more. Even for the 2nd tier.

No it wouldn't, not for the 2nd tier. Why would a broadcaster pay a good amount for the 2nd best?

Because that's part of the deal.

Just like the challenge cup at the moment.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 10 Apr - 14:14

Sin é wrote:

Eh, Saracens are in debt to the tune of 40 million Erm(which they say includes the redevelopment of a 10K stadium). Bath (who are also undergoing refurbishment) are losing 3m per annum.

So? That's because they spend wildly and don't manage themselves within their means like Leicester and Exeter. And presumably, by your assumption Munster?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 10 Apr - 14:16

Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:It wouldn't be includsive though. It would be the top tier and 2nd tier. Where has there ever been a deal where the top tier doesn't get the vast majority of the money?

Say for arguments sake you're correct and for the 1st time you see the money spread across, you would see the English clubs who were in the AP getting less money; why would they go for it?

I'm not saying it will be spread across. I'm saying that it will be significantly more. Even for the 2nd tier.

No it wouldn't, not for the 2nd tier. Why would a broadcaster pay a good amount for the 2nd best?

Because that's part of the deal.

Just like the challenge cup at the moment.

What deal? Championship and Premiership are sold separately in every sport. Why would a broadcaster pay a top price for the 2nd tier?

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Post by Totalflanker Fri 10 Apr - 14:16

Even if you accept that a British and Irish league is an attractive proposition, which arguably it could be. Main stumbling block, how do trust the PRL - goalpost would change at the drop of a hat if there was a chance of chasing bigger bucks, Celtic teams and potentially nations would be seen as perfectly reasonable collateral damage if it suited them. Italian rugby would be just the first in line for the chop as they are alienated for PRL purposes.

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Post by SecretFly Fri 10 Apr - 14:17

Chunky Norwich wrote:I can't change your mind. You're institutionalised in your thought process.

That's why it'll hit hard when it happens.

I'm not institutionalised...I'm clinging to what we have for as long as we can cling to it.

I'm the one - not you - me and few others last year - who warned about the road we were going down with Europe.  
It can't hit me hard, nothing can hit me hard because it's already happening and I'm already concerned.  

The pressures are already beginning.  The players are already being tempted by massive wages elsewhere.  The rules are being changed by some and having to be obeyed by others.  Money, power and influence is already talking and controlling. Your Armageddon is already started ...and your rush to your sanctuary of a Relegation B&I League is yet another step on the ladder to your 'omenous' future.

I can't make you see that consolidation of rugby in Europe is not in Welsh rugby's best interests.  You'll think otherwise.  But I'm here warning you - be careful what you wish for if your wish is to sustain quality rugby in Wales.  You'll be hit hard when you see the fruits of your wished for future, not me.

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Post by rodders Fri 10 Apr - 14:24

Chunky Norwich wrote:Broadcasting revenue. As revealed today by the CEO of PRW:

The French Top14 = £50m
Aviva Prem =  £40m
Pro12 = £11.5m.

That is quite simply unsustainable if you want to be a professional rugby team in domestic Northern Hem rugby. Somethign has to change for the celtic teams, and quickly.

Is that just for the sky sports deal or inclusive of the other broadcasting deals the individual teams and unions have?

Figures look pretty good to me considering the relative population sizes and the length of time the relative leagues have been going.

Exciting times for the pro12.
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Post by Pete330v2 Fri 10 Apr - 14:28

This is a hoot to read through after my lunch break.

Chunkles says "I can't change your mind. You're institutionalised in your thought process."

Is that chunkles talking to chunkles? It has to be as it's the only logical reason for him/her typing that.

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Post by marty2086 Fri 10 Apr - 14:34

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

The Top14 has been around for over 100 years, the AP about 30 and the Pro12 14 and only 4 in its current format. That's not to mention the AP and Top14 have signed exclusive deals which are more lucrative plus he doesn't mention if the figure covers Sky or all the rights signed in the different regions with different broadcasters

Perfectly valid reasons why the pro12 gets such a poor broadcast deal.
Doesn't address what to do about the shortfall.

You call it poor based on what? A comparison to what the other leagues get? Again you lack an understanding of context and the knowledge of what makes up the 11.5m figure, if that's just sky then theres more money to be added to that amount and as other contracts had been signed prior to the sky deal once they expire it may open the door to a bigger piee of the pie for Sky and hence more money.

You also miss out that the AP also had the advantage of BT trying to buy up whatever they can to outdo Sky so the is an element of over inflation with their figure

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 10 Apr - 14:36

rodders wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:Broadcasting revenue. As revealed today by the CEO of PRW:

The French Top14 = £50m
Aviva Prem =  £40m
Pro12 = £11.5m.

That is quite simply unsustainable if you want to be a professional rugby team in domestic Northern Hem rugby. Somethign has to change for the celtic teams, and quickly.

Is that just for the sky sports deal or inclusive of the other broadcasting deals the individual teams and unions have?

Figures look pretty good to me considering the relative population sizes and the length of time the relative leagues have been going.

Exciting times for the pro12.

I took it as inclusive of all.

So the argument for such a poor figure is "It's a good broadcasting deal considering the factors that make the league logistically impossible to command a reasonable broadcast deal"

I think that just about sums it all up.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 10 Apr - 14:38

marty2086 wrote:

You call it poor based on what? A comparison to what the other leagues get? Again you lack an understanding of context and the knowledge of what makes up the 11.5m figure, if that's just sky then theres more money to be added to that amount and as other contracts had been signed prior to the sky deal once they expire it may open the door to a bigger piee of the pie for Sky and hence more money.

You also miss out that the AP also had the advantage of BT trying to buy up whatever they can to outdo Sky so the is an element of over inflation with their figure

Nothing is missed out. No context is lacking.

The only context are the figures, because the context is broadcast revenue. The reasons are many. But the result will be the same - a slow painful descent of celtic domestic rugby.

I'm clearly worried about it, and these figures backup my assertions. If you're not worried by it - then great, keep smiling.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 10 Apr - 14:42

You keep jumping about with your point Chunky, you've already acknowledged there's more finance than just TV money, why not include it for the full picture?

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Post by marty2086 Fri 10 Apr - 14:50

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

You call it poor based on what? A comparison to what the other leagues get? Again you lack an understanding of context and the knowledge of what makes up the 11.5m figure, if that's just sky then theres more money to be added to that amount and as other contracts had been signed prior to the sky deal once they expire it may open the door to a bigger piee of the pie for Sky and hence more money.

You also miss out that the AP also had the advantage of BT trying to buy up whatever they can to outdo Sky so the is an element of over inflation with their figure

Nothing is missed out. No context is lacking.

The only context are the figures, because the context is broadcast revenue. The reasons are many. But the result will be the same - a slow painful descent of celtic domestic rugby.

I'm clearly worried about it, and these figures backup my assertions. If you're not worried by it - then great, keep smiling.

The Pro12 went 13 years without a central tv deal and survived so on what exactly do you base the assertion not to mention that Davies said the Welsh regions have signed a new commercial deal with BT Sport which they expect to help cover the difference and are working on establishing new commercial revenue streams so its actually relevant because maybe you just don't know what your talking about

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 10 Apr - 14:53

No 7&1/2 wrote:You keep jumping about with your point Chunky, you've already acknowledged there's more finance than just TV money, why not include it for the full picture?

Because as Mark Davies said yesterday:

"The key to increasing revenue in today’s environment is broadcast revenue. That dwarves sponsorship and ticket sales in professional sport."

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