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Pro12 value - the facts

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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:37 pm

First topic message reminder :

Broadcasting revenue. As revealed today by the CEO of PRW:

The French Top14 = £50m
Aviva Prem = £40m
Pro12 = £11.5m.

That is quite simply unsustainable if you want to be a professional rugby team in domestic Northern Hem rugby. Somethign has to change for the celtic teams, and quickly.

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Post by rodders Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:54 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
rodders wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:Broadcasting revenue. As revealed today by the CEO of PRW:

The French Top14 = £50m
Aviva Prem =  £40m
Pro12 = £11.5m.

That is quite simply unsustainable if you want to be a professional rugby team in domestic Northern Hem rugby. Somethign has to change for the celtic teams, and quickly.

Is that just for the sky sports deal or inclusive of the other broadcasting deals the individual teams and unions have?

Figures look pretty good to me considering the relative population sizes and the length of time the relative leagues have been going.

Exciting times for the pro12.

I took it as inclusive of all.

So the argument for such a poor figure is "It's a good broadcasting deal considering the factors that make the league logistically impossible to command a reasonable broadcast deal"

I think that just about sums it all up.

Didn't say that - but this is the first inclusive broadcasting deal the league is done - if the viewing figures are good then down the line hopefully better deals will follow in years to come.
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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:54 pm

marty2086 wrote:

The Pro12 went 13 years without a central tv deal and survived so on what exactly do you base the assertion not to mention that Davies said the Welsh regions have signed a new commercial deal with BT Sport which they expect to help cover the difference and are working on establishing new commercial revenue streams so its actually relevant because maybe you just don't know what your talking about

I rather think the game has moved on when France and England can command £90m between them for 2 leagues.


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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:57 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:You keep jumping about with your point Chunky, you've already acknowledged there's more finance than just TV money, why not include it for the full picture?

Because as Mark Davies said yesterday:

"The key to increasing revenue in today’s environment is broadcast revenue. That dwarves sponsorship and ticket sales in professional sport."

This quote?

'There will be considerably more revenue coming our way as the European competition grows, as a result of the position we took on Europe. That is working for us.

Now we need to focus on the Pro12. From a PRW perspective, that is my number one priority. We need to go to the market early, secure the right value for that product and make sure we are in the same ball park as other leagues in Europe.

The French Top14 brings in more than £50m from broadcasting rights, the new English deal is expected to deliver about £40m. The Pro12 TV deal at this point is around £11.5m.
It is what it is. The other leagues are more established. They have been more stable, but there is a real drive there to realise the value of the Pro12.

The answer to sustaining four regions is broadcast revenue, not the WRU or individuals paying for everything.

We will also be looking to increase revenue through sponsorship and the commercial side of things. We have already secured an important agreement with BT Sport and we have got to drive the whole commercial area harder and focus on marketing the game. We are now in a position to do that.'

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Post by marty2086 Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:57 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:You keep jumping about with your point Chunky, you've already acknowledged there's more finance than just TV money, why not include it for the full picture?

Because as Mark Davies said yesterday:

"The key to increasing revenue in today’s environment is broadcast revenue. That dwarves sponsorship and ticket sales in professional sport."

The answer to sustaining four regions is broadcast revenue, not the WRU or individuals paying for everything.

We will also be looking to increase revenue through sponsorship and the commercial side of things. We have already secured an important agreement with BT Sport and we have got to drive the whole commercial area harder and focus on marketing the game. We are now in a position to do that.

There will be considerably more revenue coming our way as the European competition grows, as a result of the position we took on Europe. That is working for us.

Again context!

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:59 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:You keep jumping about with your point Chunky, you've already acknowledged there's more finance than just TV money, why not include it for the full picture?

Because as Mark Davies said yesterday:

"The key to increasing revenue in today’s environment is broadcast revenue. That dwarves sponsorship and ticket sales in professional sport."

This quote?

'There will be considerably more revenue coming our way as the European competition grows, as a result of the position we took on Europe. That is working for us.

Now we need to focus on the Pro12. From a PRW perspective, that is my number one priority. We need to go to the market early, secure the right value for that product and make sure we are in the same ball park as other leagues in Europe.

The French Top14 brings in more than £50m from broadcasting rights, the new English deal is expected to deliver about £40m. The Pro12 TV deal at this point is around £11.5m.
It is what it is. The other leagues are more established. They have been more stable, but there is a real drive there to realise the value of the Pro12.

The answer to sustaining four regions is broadcast revenue, not the WRU or individuals paying for everything.

We will also be looking to increase revenue through sponsorship and the commercial side of things. We have already secured an important agreement with BT Sport and we have got to drive the whole commercial area harder and focus on marketing the game. We are now in a position to do that.'

No, this quote:

"The key to increasing revenue in today’s environment is broadcast revenue. That dwarves sponsorship and ticket sales in professional sport."

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:59 pm

The top 14 and the pro12 are totally different though. The pro12 exists as an entity to fuel quality home grown talent for the unions international team. The top 14 does not.

Ask any frenchman about the amount of money and foreign players in their league, coupled with the performance of their international team and ask if that makes them happy.

Scotland, Wales, Ireland and Italy are doing just fine and not requiring huge budgets to do so.

Again I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. If you are saying that the pro12 would be better with more money and more foreign players I would disagree 100%
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Post by marty2086 Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:00 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

The Pro12 went 13 years without a central tv deal and survived so on what exactly do you base the assertion not to mention that Davies said the Welsh regions have signed a new commercial deal with BT Sport which they expect to help cover the difference and are working on establishing new commercial revenue streams so its actually relevant because maybe you just don't know what your talking about

I rather think the game has moved on when France and England can command £90m between them for 2 leagues.


Last year no one was ringing alarm bells when there was no deal, they are now earning more from the Pro12 along with Europe plus the new Welsh central contracts will spread some costs around

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:01 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:You keep jumping about with your point Chunky, you've already acknowledged there's more finance than just TV money, why not include it for the full picture?

Because as Mark Davies said yesterday:

"The key to increasing revenue in today’s environment is broadcast revenue. That dwarves sponsorship and ticket sales in professional sport."

This quote?

'There will be considerably more revenue coming our way as the European competition grows, as a result of the position we took on Europe. That is working for us.

Now we need to focus on the Pro12. From a PRW perspective, that is my number one priority. We need to go to the market early, secure the right value for that product and make sure we are in the same ball park as other leagues in Europe.

The French Top14 brings in more than £50m from broadcasting rights, the new English deal is expected to deliver about £40m. The Pro12 TV deal at this point is around £11.5m.
It is what it is. The other leagues are more established. They have been more stable, but there is a real drive there to realise the value of the Pro12.

The answer to sustaining four regions is broadcast revenue, not the WRU or individuals paying for everything.

We will also be looking to increase revenue through sponsorship and the commercial side of things. We have already secured an important agreement with BT Sport and we have got to drive the whole commercial area harder and focus on marketing the game. We are now in a position to do that.'

No, this quote:

"The key to increasing revenue in today’s environment is broadcast revenue. That dwarves sponsorship and ticket sales in professional sport."

It's the same interview Chunks. Ain't a context a b****.

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Post by SecretFly Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:05 pm

"The Position we took in Europe" ......... Laugh

Being kicked around from billy to jack in a much bigger play for power between the PRL and LNR?

The Welsh Regions created the framework of the new European deal by saying they'd go along with England in an Anglo/Welsh League if their 'friends' in the Pro12 didn't bend down and kiss the feet of their betters and join the new More Money and Less Influence ERCC?

Thanks Mark.  Thanks for everything.  You pulled us all though the tough times together. Now we know why Welsh business heads would run the Pro12 better.

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Post by Sin é Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:51 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:

Eh, Saracens are in debt to the tune of 40 million Erm(which they say includes the redevelopment of a 10K stadium). Bath (who are also undergoing refurbishment) are losing 3m per annum.

So? That's because they spend wildly and don't manage themselves within their means like Leicester and Exeter. And presumably, by your assumption Munster?

Its not getting them anywhere though, is it? (and there is a fair bit of difference comparing a debt for 2 stadia (26.5K & 10K) with a debt of 9m euro to redeveloping a 10K stadium with debts of over £40m (and dependent on the vagaries of a consortium) WITH this great tv deal!


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Post by Sin é Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:48 pm

Chunks - better hang onto the Irish coat tails - in a recent BT survey (2000) in BRITAIN the most popular sporting lullaby is Ireland's Call (ahead of Swing Low & You'll Never Walk Alone).

Very Happy
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Post by LordDowlais Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:08 pm

I really like Ireland's call, it's a very stirring song, it's just you Irish lot who hate it.

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Post by Guest Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:10 pm

Sin é wrote:Chunks - better hang onto the Irish coat tails - in a recent BT survey (2000) in BRITAIN the most popular sporting lullaby is Ireland's Call (ahead of Swing Low & You'll Never Walk Alone).

Very Happy

And prize for the most pointless post in 606v2 history goes to...

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Post by The Saint Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:14 pm

I've only ever heard Ireland's call being sang by the Irish during 6 Nations time. So I'm quite surprised at that apparent stat.

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Post by Sin é Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:18 pm

Griff wrote:
Sin é wrote:Chunks - better hang onto the Irish coat tails - in a recent BT survey (2000) in BRITAIN the most popular sporting lullaby is Ireland's Call (ahead of Swing Low & You'll Never Walk Alone).

Very Happy

And prize for the most pointless post in 606v2 history goes to...

You don't get that for British people to know Ireland's Calls, they would need to watch them playing international rugby which shows that there is interest in Irish Rugby (the only major sport to use Ireland's Call) in Britain (The survey was commissioned by BT who televise sport).



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Post by Exiledinborders Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:23 pm

Sin é wrote:
Griff wrote:
Sin é wrote:Chunks - better hang onto the Irish coat tails - in a recent BT survey (2000) in BRITAIN the most popular sporting lullaby is Ireland's Call (ahead of Swing Low & You'll Never Walk Alone).

Very Happy

And prize for the most pointless post in 606v2 history goes to...

You don't get that for British people to know Ireland's Calls, they would need to watch them playing international rugby which shows that there is interest in Irish Rugby (the only major sport to use Ireland's Call) in Britain (The survey was commissioned by BT who televise sport).



Let's all accept that Ireland's Call is the best tune. Let's all accept that people have heard it listening to the Irish International team. Having accepted those two assertions as fact how does that make the Pro12 more or less sustainable?

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Post by Sin é Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:27 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Griff wrote:
Sin é wrote:Chunks - better hang onto the Irish coat tails - in a recent BT survey (2000) in BRITAIN the most popular sporting lullaby is Ireland's Call (ahead of Swing Low & You'll Never Walk Alone).

Very Happy

And prize for the most pointless post in 606v2 history goes to...

You don't get that for British people to know Ireland's Calls, they would need to watch them playing international rugby which shows that there is interest in Irish Rugby (the only major sport to use Ireland's Call) in Britain (The survey was commissioned by BT who televise sport).



Let's all accept that Ireland's Call is the best tune. Let's all accept that people have heard it listening to the Irish International team.  Having accepted those two assertions as fact how does that make the Pro12 more or less sustainable?

The survey was conducted by BT and now knowing that Irish rugby is popular in Britain, it might incentivise BT to bid against Sky for games that involves Irish teams because they would have a market for them in England (and its large population).

Lets not forget that BT declined to bid for the PRO12 rights last year.
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Post by SecretFly Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:45 pm

Griff wrote:
Sin é wrote:Chunks - better hang onto the Irish coat tails - in a recent BT survey (2000) in BRITAIN the most popular sporting lullaby is Ireland's Call (ahead of Swing Low & You'll Never Walk Alone).

Very Happy

And prize for the most pointless post in 606v2 history goes to...

That's a fecking strategic post and Sin shouldn't have let the cat out of the bag!!! Schmidt will be pi-ssed! We were planning on using the lullaby effect in the WC. Earplugs all round for our opponents now. Thank a bloody bunch Sin.

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Post by Guest Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:47 pm

Sin é wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Griff wrote:
Sin é wrote:Chunks - better hang onto the Irish coat tails - in a recent BT survey (2000) in BRITAIN the most popular sporting lullaby is Ireland's Call (ahead of Swing Low & You'll Never Walk Alone).

Very Happy

And prize for the most pointless post in 606v2 history goes to...

You don't get that for British people to know Ireland's Calls, they would need to watch them playing international rugby which shows that there is interest in Irish Rugby (the only major sport to use Ireland's Call) in Britain (The survey was commissioned by BT who televise sport).



Let's all accept that Ireland's Call is the best tune. Let's all accept that people have heard it listening to the Irish International team.  Having accepted those two assertions as fact how does that make the Pro12 more or less sustainable?

The survey was conducted by BT and now knowing that Irish rugby is popular in Britain, it might incentivise BT to bid against Sky for games that involves Irish teams because they would have a market for them in England (and its large population).

Lets not forget that BT declined to bid for the PRO12 rights last year.

No. It proves only that your song is popular. It is one of my wife's favourite rugby anthems (along with Flower of Scotland. Just asked her), but she has no intetest in Ireland or Irish rugby. Similarly, Italy's anthem is my favourite but I'm not really interested in them, apart from when we're playing them.

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Post by carpet baboon Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:30 pm

On a more vitaly important note, do we think chunky just needs a big hug? It could help a lot

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Post by Pot Hale Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:23 am

Not sure what all the fuss is about Chunky stating the bleeding obvious.

In the last week, two Welsh rugby heads have come out and said they need to get more funds into the PRO12 and Welsh rugby needs to get its act together.  And one of them points out the disparity between the respective TV deals for the three leagues.

What a surprise.

The previous week, the CEO of Leinster said the same thing.   Re-brand the Pro12, greater marketing drive and increase broadcast revenue - with the UK the target market in his view to generate more broadcast revenue - and presumably better commercial support/sponsorship.

It's not exactly a rocket science statement to make.  And I'd be inclined to take Mr Dawson a lot more seriously as a rugby business head since he runs a successful business and has taken it from meagre regular crowds of a couple of thousand in Donnybrook to 10k+ season ticket holders and a new stadium that's heading for a 22k capacity revamp in the next few years.

Dawson said the Scots need to pull their socks up, particularly Edinburgh.  And the Welsh regions need to get their players back - presumably to make the produce more saleable with the best players playing in their own league, along with a smattering of profile imports across the different clubs.  

The only notable country absent from his tick list was Italy.  I wonder does a re-branding of Pro12 in Dawson's eyes mean it should get re-named to Pro10.......?

The Irish clubs have possibly better business nous coupled with greater access to commercial and business backing.  Munster are actively looking to bring in a much stronger business relationship to the club that lessens their dependency on union funds, or gives them more purchasing clout.   Leinster have had wealthy businesspeople support retaining or bringing back key players.  Even Connacht has managed to achieve a fair bit of a turnaround with its local business backers.

You'd wonder if there's a few more Derek Richardsons floating around in the UK who might be encouraged to put their money into Irish rugby clubs rather than English ones.  As Dawson observed in his interview, the notion of a British & Irish League is a long way away given the TV deals that the PRL has already entered into.   If the Premiership becomes a lock-out in a couple of years, is there potential for attracting in some of the English teams outside the ring fence into a revamped Pro 12 - a tier one premiership of ten teams, and a tier two of 10-12?  Having an English component in a revamped/re-branded Pro 12 would make for a much better draw to attract in TV revenue.   A kind of an Anglo-Celtic Horse to wheel up outside Mr McCafferty's ring fenced walls, all -prettied up and a nice pink bow on its price tag so he might like to take it inside for a while to inspect it further......
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Post by Pot Hale Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:28 am

Continuing the idle dreaming....

Let's say that you brought in:

6 English clubs e.g. Worcester, Yorkshire Carnegie, Bristol, London Welsh, Cornish Pirates, and Bedford
2 Welsh Clubs - not a clue - for example's sake say current top two in Premiership -

Total 20 clubs split into two tiers.  With promotion/relegation for two teams for the first few years to allow any perceived imbalances to be sorted out between the two leagues, (then possibly reduce to one).   Dump the "one for every country in the audience" approach to European Cup.  Top 6 in tier one automatically qualify for the Heino, plus the play-off 7th spot with England and France.   Bottom 3 and promoted 2 go into Challenge Cup.

The Guinness European League

Premiership - Tier One might have the following teams to start off:

Ospreys
Scarlets
Glasgow
Treviso
Worcester
London Welsh
Bristol
Ulster
Munster
Leinster

The Lidl Euro League - Tier Two might have:
Zebre
Connacht
Dragons
Cardiff Blues
Yorkshire
Bedford
Pirates
Edinburgh
Pontypridd
Llandovery
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Post by Guest Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:19 am

Pot Hale wrote:Not sure what all the fuss is about Chunky stating the bleeding obvious.

In the last week, two Welsh rugby heads have come out and said they need to get more funds into the PRO12 and Welsh rugby needs to get its act together.  And one of them points out the disparity between the respective TV deals for the three leagues.

What a surprise.

You're right. I don't know why Chunky gets such abuse. Well, I do know. It's because people do not respect others right to an opinion. We have mob rule on here. I don't always agree with Chunky, especially on the Pro12, but he is often called a WUM. But WUMs deliberately try to wind people up, hence the acronym, and often post and run. But Chunky isn't trying to wind people up here IMO. He's just got a view, a belief about the way he sees the league going, that others don't agree with. Big difference. And he's happy to discuss it and debate it. He may not be right, but neither might we all be as we're discussing future possibilities. Let the guy have his opinion. And as you point out, others in the industry are saying similar things. Just perhaps not so bluntly!

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Post by LordDowlais Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:21 am

Well said Griff, there seems to be a wolf pack mentality on here at times, no wonder the members are decreasing in numbers.

This forum is for discussions and opinions, not for mob rule.

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Post by VinceWLB Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:26 am

Now that the pro 12 is competitive and that now almost every game has something at stakes, better TV deals should be asked, if that means no free viewing anymore on the likes of BBC, TG4 etc so be it.

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Post by TJ Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:55 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:Why would the English want the Welsh to join the AP?

What would they get out of it?

You do realise that the English clubs have a massive and long history with the Welsh clubs don't you ? This is why the LV cup was kept as the English sides wanted to keep the historic rivalry between them.

Nonsense - the LV cup is all about money.; Nothing else matters in the ap

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Post by TJ Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:03 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:I can't change your mind. You're institutionalised in your thought process.

That's why it'll hit hard when it happens.

~thing is we live int he real world where the pro 12 is the only option. You live in some weird fantasy world where the english teams are going to vote to give the welsh teams millions - it ain't gonna happen. do you actually know the history of professionalism in rugby?

A british and irish league was suggested. the english would no join in. The english did not play in the european cup at first, the english have a long history in rugby of looking after their own interests first second and third

there is no other option to the pro 12. NOne at all. The welsh have exhausted a lot of goodwill from the rest of the pro 12 with their continual complaints, their lack of commitment to it and their behaviour during the euro cup negotiation. the pro 12 need the welsh - but the welsh need the pro 12 far more

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Post by The Great Aukster Sun Apr 12, 2015 12:14 pm

TJ wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:I can't change your mind. You're institutionalised in your thought process.

That's why it'll hit hard when it happens.

~thing is we live int he real world where the pro 12 is the only option.  You live in some weird fantasy world where the english teams are going to vote to give the welsh teams millions - it ain't gonna happen.  do you actually know the history of professionalism in rugby?

A british and irish league was suggested.  the english would no join in.  The english did not play in the european cup at first, the english have a long history in rugby of looking after their own interests first second and third

there is no other option to the pro 12.  NOne at all.  The welsh have exhausted a lot of goodwill from the rest of the pro 12 with their continual complaints, their lack of commitment to it and their behaviour during the euro cup negotiation.  the pro 12 need the welsh - but the welsh need the pro 12 far more

I agree TJ.

Why would the AP reduce their revenue by going into a B&I League on a wing and a prayer? On the figures quoted - they would need to sell the combined rights of a B&I league for 80m just to break even. They'd have extra expenses with increased travelling and potential reduced average home gates. The ERC Cup would be further devalued and so take a big revenue hit which the extra League broadcast rights would also have to cover. As Mark Davies says the only show in town is the Pro12, and as a product has far more potential to grow than trying to skim off a mature cash cow like the AP.

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Post by Sin é Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:02 pm

Pot Hole - I listened to the Mick Dawson interview. He gave the reason for the need to rebrand the Pro12 as being down to all the infighting recently. A major component of the rebranding is that the Welsh Regions will have to undo all the damage they have done with their continued rubishing of the Pro12.

Chunky take note.

Secondly, he said that the Aviva Premieship (through McCafferty) have no interest in a B&I League. However, he said that talking to the clubs themselves privately they say they would like to be in a league with Munster, Leinster & Ulster because (take note Chunky) of the huge support they have.

i.e., the Welsh Regions will need to bring something to the table if they want this B&I league.
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Post by Notch Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:27 pm

A British and Irish League is possible, in other words, just don't expect the Welsh and the Scottish to be invited.

I'd rather the Pro12 and it's meagre broadcast rights than joining up with the England and condemning the Scots and the Welsh to quicker decline and disaster.
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Post by Exiledinborders Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:00 pm

TJ wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:I can't change your mind. You're institutionalised in your thought process.

That's why it'll hit hard when it happens.

~thing is we live int he real world where the pro 12 is the only option.  You live in some weird fantasy world where the english teams are going to vote to give the welsh teams millions - it ain't gonna happen.  do you actually know the history of professionalism in rugby?

A british and irish league was suggested.  the english would no join in.  The english did not play in the european cup at first, the english have a long history in rugby of looking after their own interests first second and third

there is no other option to the pro 12.  NOne at all.  The welsh have exhausted a lot of goodwill from the rest of the pro 12 with their continual complaints, their lack of commitment to it and their behaviour during the euro cup negotiation.  the pro 12 need the welsh - but the welsh need the pro 12 far more
You are correct. However the Scots, Welsh also have a history of looking after themselve too. The Pro12 was not formed out of a desire by the Scots for example to help Welsh rugby. It was, as it is now, the only realistic option. The smaller countries need to band together to form a professional league whereas the larger countries don't. That does not make the Celtic countries more altruistic just equally realistic.

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Post by TJ Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:02 pm

Would the irish cast the scots adn welsh adrift? I doubt it personally. Especially of all the nations in the pro 112 the irish are the ones it works best for.

I still say no chance of a british and irish league. some english clubs would end up in the second tier not the top - they ain't gonna vote for tat. Breoadcast money would be reduced per english team - they ain't gonna vote for that. English teams would have less chance of winning the league - they ain't gonna vote for that. English teams would have less chance of getting into europe - they ain't gonna vote for that

Turkeys rarely vote for christmas

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Post by Sin é Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:08 pm

TJ wrote:Would the irish cast the scots adn welsh adrift?  I doubt it personally.  Especially of all the nations in the pro 112 the irish are the ones it works best for.

I still say no chance of a british and irish league.  some english clubs would end up in the second tier not the top - they ain't gonna vote for tat.  Breoadcast money would be reduced per english team - they ain't gonna vote for that.  English teams would have less chance of winning the league - they ain't gonna vote for that.  English teams would have less chance of getting into europe - they ain't gonna vote for that

Turkeys rarely vote for christmas

I don't think the Irish would cast aside the Welsh or Scots (fortunately for the Welsh & Scots, the Provinces are not run by some ego maniac).

However, just including 3 Irish teams (an extra 6 games) wouldn't be too much of a hardship for the Premier clubs if they dumped the Anglo-Welsh Cup.
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Post by Notch Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:22 pm

TJ wrote:Would the irish cast the scots adn welsh adrift?  I doubt it personally.  Especially of all the nations in the pro 112 the irish are the ones it works best for.

I still say no chance of a british and irish league.  some english clubs would end up in the second tier not the top - they ain't gonna vote for tat.  Breoadcast money would be reduced per english team - they ain't gonna vote for that.  English teams would have less chance of winning the league - they ain't gonna vote for that.  English teams would have less chance of getting into europe - they ain't gonna vote for that

Turkeys rarely vote for christmas

The turkeys wouldn't vote for it, but the Shoitehawks would. It seems that Turkeys outnumber Shoitehawks at present if the salary cap debate is any barometer.

There's no chance because the IRFU would be unwilling to make enemies of the SRU and WRU. There's a World Cup in 2023 they are after and who knows what else will come up.
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Post by SecretFly Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:26 pm

I don't like insulting any of our partners for the price of banter.

I've pulled my hair out verbally fighting for the rights of Italians and Scottish teams last year in the context of Europe. And would fight verbally hard again (worthless to be sure but it's all a supporter has these days) if the Scots or Italians were being set up for another fall with plans or pre-plans for another money making B&I league jaunt.

That jaunt would be even more dangerous for the survival of truly competitive rugby on the fringes of the big two (England/France) than the European competitions will prove to be over the next handful of years.

Welsh rugby is strong enough to be always in with 'safe' places in any new League or Competition - the Scots and Italians are the ones I'd fight for. If you don't have the nobility to stand up for your own League partners in a fight then you don't have a whole lot of nobility fullstop.


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Post by Sin é Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:46 pm

In defence of the Welsh (WRU), they split the European money more or less equally between the Unions (Italian Union gets a small bit less) even though both the Irish & Welsh have 4 teams.

The problem isn't the unions, its the clubs.
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Post by profitius Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:55 pm

Griff wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:Not sure what all the fuss is about Chunky stating the bleeding obvious.

In the last week, two Welsh rugby heads have come out and said they need to get more funds into the PRO12 and Welsh rugby needs to get its act together.  And one of them points out the disparity between the respective TV deals for the three leagues.

What a surprise.

You're right. I don't know why Chunky gets such abuse. Well, I do know. It's because people do not respect others right to an opinion. We have mob rule on here. I don't always agree with Chunky, especially on the Pro12, but he is often called a WUM. But WUMs deliberately try to wind people up, hence the acronym, and often post and run. But Chunky isn't trying to wind people up here IMO. He's just got a view, a belief about the way he sees the league going, that others don't agree with. Big difference. And he's happy to discuss it and debate it. He may not be right, but neither might we all be as we're discussing future possibilities. Let the guy have his opinion. And as you point out, others in the industry are saying similar things. Just perhaps not so bluntly!

Some people should read up on marketing and advertising etc. If you continually talk something down and call it sh!t, others will start to look on it negatively. This will impact negatively on the product.

There are a bunch of supporters who have been critical of the league from day one and not only that, the arguments have changed over time!

Theres no such thing as a balanced opinion, its ALL negativity.

The league isn't perfect but its doing a lot of things right and has grown every year. It could be better but there are still some entertaining games. The 6th place finish, the Italians competing with each other for their Euro spot, the top 4 places, the home semis. There is a lot to play for and some excellent games and drama in recent weeks.
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Post by LordDowlais Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:08 pm

The gloss has been taken off the Pro12 for me, to only get a home semi for finishing top stinks of shoite, first or second carries the same prize now, I know I harp on about things geared up for the Irish in this league, but to announce this rule change half way through the season makes it look this way, the one season where it looks as though an Irish province will not finish top, then the goal posts are moved to keep the final in Ireland anyway.

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Post by Sin é Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:16 pm

LordDowlais wrote:The gloss has been taken off the Pro12 for me, to only get a home semi for finishing top stinks of shoite, first or second carries the same prize now, I know I harp on about things geared up for the Irish in this league, but to announce this rule change half way through the season makes it look this way, the one season where it looks as though an Irish province will not finish top, then the goal posts are moved to keep the final in Ireland anyway.

And why do you think the Pro12 want it located in Ireland?
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Post by Guest Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:18 pm

I'm not sold on it myself, LD. It doesn't seem right that a team who finishes top may have to play their final at their opponents home ground.

What I don't get is your reasoning that this change supports your view that the league is geared up for the Irish? Any logical reason for this? If not, I'm sure you can understand why I believe that most of the complaints coming from the few Welsh are based on unsubstantiated conspiracy theories.

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Post by LordDowlais Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:30 pm

The blazers who run the Pro12 want the final in Ireland to keep the sponsors happy, like I have said before unfortunately there are no big multinational companies in Wales, the only others could be one of the whiskey firms in Scotland or perhaps one of the car companies in Italy, unfortunately you need to keep the people putting money into the happy, that is why I think the league is geared up to keep the Irish happy.

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Post by Sin é Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:35 pm

LordDowlais wrote:The blazers who run the Pro12 want the final in Ireland because they will get a good gate which will enable them to run the competition.

Fixed that for you.

If say Glasgow ended up v Ulster in the Final in Wales - how many locals would go to it?
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Post by TJ Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:36 pm

Sin é wrote:
TJ wrote:Would the irish cast the scots adn welsh adrift?  I doubt it personally.  Especially of all the nations in the pro 112 the irish are the ones it works best for.

I still say no chance of a british and irish league.  some english clubs would end up in the second tier not the top - they ain't gonna vote for tat.  Breoadcast money would be reduced per english team - they ain't gonna vote for that.  English teams would have less chance of winning the league - they ain't gonna vote for that.  English teams would have less chance of getting into europe - they ain't gonna vote for that

Turkeys rarely vote for christmas

I don't think the Irish would cast aside the Welsh or Scots (fortunately for the Welsh & Scots, the Provinces are not run by some ego maniac).

However, just including 3 Irish teams (an extra 6 games) wouldn't be too much of a hardship for the Premier clubs if they dumped the Anglo-Welsh Cup.

making a bigger league? When do they play those games? Not going to happen. that would mean a 15 team league

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Post by TJ Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:39 pm

Sin é wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The gloss has been taken off the Pro12 for me, to only get a home semi for finishing top stinks of shoite, first or second carries the same prize now, I know I harp on about things geared up for the Irish in this league, but to announce this rule change half way through the season makes it look this way, the one season where it looks as though an Irish province will not finish top, then the goal posts are moved to keep the final in Ireland anyway.

And why do you think the Pro12 want it located in Ireland?

No one but a few welsh fans think its loaded in favour of Ireland.

The welsh teams either raise their game orgo away. For goodness sake stop with the continual whining. "too many irish refs" - disproven Too many Games on some particular day - Welsh TVs choice etc etc.

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Post by Guest Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:41 pm

LD, if the blazers in the Pro12 wanted to keep the final in Ireland, then they would have been better off just leaving things as they were.

What evidence do you have that the blazers who run the Pro12 want to keep the final in Ireland?

Do you believe Guinness are behind this? Are you now bemoaning Guinness coming in as sponsors?

A far as I'm aware, there were only 2 teams competing for the final venue - Glasgow and Ulster. Ospreys didn't want it, and stated that they will wait and see how this years does. Whoever does host the final will want to be sure that they sell enough tickets to cover costs. Something which Ulster did with ease.

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Post by LordDowlais Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:41 pm

Cheers TJ, just because I have an opinion I am whining, oh well I will remember you saying this next time Scotland lose and get a few yellows.

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Post by The Great Aukster Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:42 pm

TJ wrote:
Sin é wrote:
TJ wrote:Would the irish cast the scots adn welsh adrift?  I doubt it personally.  Especially of all the nations in the pro 112 the irish are the ones it works best for.

I still say no chance of a british and irish league.  some english clubs would end up in the second tier not the top - they ain't gonna vote for tat.  Breoadcast money would be reduced per english team - they ain't gonna vote for that.  English teams would have less chance of winning the league - they ain't gonna vote for that.  English teams would have less chance of getting into europe - they ain't gonna vote for that

Turkeys rarely vote for christmas

I don't think the Irish would cast aside the Welsh or Scots (fortunately for the Welsh & Scots, the Provinces are not run by some ego maniac).

However, just including 3 Irish teams (an extra 6 games) wouldn't be too much of a hardship for the Premier clubs if they dumped the Anglo-Welsh Cup.

making a bigger league?  When do they play those games?  Not going to happen.  that would mean a 15 team league

Aren't the PRL scrapping the LV and talking about extending their ring-fenced league to 16 teams?

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Post by TJ Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:44 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Cheers TJ, just because I have an opinion I am whining, oh well I will remember you saying this next time Scotland lose and get a few yellows.

Its because the complaints some welsh fans make are completely baseless - thats the issue. None of the complaints stack up when actually looked at. If you have a genuine complaint its fine - to invent spurious things with no foundation in fact is spurious and whining and it makes the people doing it look ridiculous

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Post by SecretFly Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:44 pm

I don't think the sponsors care where the final is.

Obviously the best use of sponsorship is Spreading the word of a company, not simply re-selling it over and over to people already Sold Out Wink - as in Guinness doesn't need the excite the Irish market that is already well in tune with the 'pleasures ' of the black stuff. Selling the brand identity in other places if where they potentially generate most 'growth'.

So the argument doesn't stand in a marketing sense.


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Post by LordDowlais Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:46 pm

Munchkin wrote:LD, if the blazers in the Pro12 wanted to keep the final in Ireland, then they would have been better off just leaving things as they were.

What evidence do you have that the blazers who run the Pro12 want to keep the final in Ireland?

Do you believe Guinness are behind this? Are you now bemoaning Guinness coming in as sponsors?

A far as I'm aware, there were only 2 teams competing for the final venue - Glasgow and Ulster. Ospreys didn't want it, and stated that they will wait and see how this years does. Whoever does host the final will want to be sure that they sell enough tickets to cover costs. Something which Ulster did with ease.


Ospreys did not bother as they knew they would not get it, they put demands into staging the final that could not be met by anybody else, like a minimum amount of five star hotels within a few miles of the stadium ect. I am not bemoaning Guinness either, I am very happy to have them putting money into our league, but they need to be kept happy, and that is why I THINK the league is geared up to favour the Irish.

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