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Welsh Rugby Pyramid

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GavinDragon
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ScarletSpiderman
SecretFly
XR
LordDowlais
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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Mon Apr 20, 2015 9:51 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:The disenfranchised fans in Wales wouldn't turn up to watch the regions if they played in the Pro12 or the Super15 though.
Fair enough. Again FWIW. I think there should be a ground up process begun in Wales. In an attempt to build a proper pyramid structure.

Consulting with every member of Rugby clubs at every level. Find out what team/region etc. that the individual wants to have allegiance to.

Collate all the results no matter how outlandish and see if you can make an attempt to satisfy as many as possible.

At least if everyone had a vote (all you have to do to get one is join a Rugby club at any level if you are not already a member) it might be easier to sell the result to the people who lost the most.

Regional fans could vote on what smaller clubs they wanted to feed into them and visa versa through the tiers.

To me one of the main issues is that Regions are excluded from the grass roots AND from any input into team Wales.

Perhaps Roger the dodger leaving would be a good time to start the campaign?
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:This is going off topic now, but why should amateur clubs who can't afford their electricity bills have any say on hos multi-million pound pro sports teams are run, and vice versa?
They shouldn't. But they should be able to decide which "Region" (or larger club in the case of small clubs) they want to feed into, even if it is one that doesn't currently exist.

Surely you would want a proper structure where everyone can row in the same direction? (barring those that are too pig headed to)

Anyway. Sorry for cluttering up your thread. Judgement Day = a good thing and I'll leave it at that.

Steffan wrote:Personally I think there are only 2 real options to change Welsh domestic rugby for the better

Fold the "regions", drop out of the Pro 12 and have a domestic Welsh club league of about 8 teams. This would allow more players to be exposed at competitive rugby and we wouldn't the player shortage like we do now. Plus we could halt the matches during the international period so players don't get injured in between and people are not paying good money to watch second string sides

The other is to install proper regions that represent the whole of Wales not just towns and cities and play in the Aviva Premiership. Plus games could be taken on the road. This would then be bringing rugby to the people as opposed to people being expected to turn up to one venue all the time

I would be happy with either of these options

Splitting this off from the current Judgement Day thread.

Sometimes outsider can see things that insiders are to close to notice. Other times they may be too naive and unaware of all of the issues.

Personally I don't think either of Steffan's options are good. What I am talking about is working within the existing Regional framework and trying to put a structure on it.

If a new Region is ever to be created then this process may help identify where that is best done. Obvious candidates are the RGC1404 and some form of Valleys team which roughly corresponds to Celtic warriors patch.

If the WRU forced through the RGC one because they could control it (against the wishes of the majority of fans/club members) That would be obvious.

If there were in fact not enough support for "Valleys Rugby" then at least you could say it had been looked at.

I'm sure most of you will say that I am.....

A: Naive.

B: know nothing about Welsh Rugby ans so should shut up

and/or

C: I am obsessed with getting everyone in Wales on the same page because I come from "union controlled" Ireland.

Sure so what. I have only wasted 10 minutes of my time. Very Happy

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Post by Chunky Norwich Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:00 pm

Fold the "regions", drop out of the Pro 12 and have a domestic Welsh club league of about 8 teams. This would allow more players to be exposed at competitive rugby and we wouldn't the player shortage like we do now. Plus we could halt the matches during the international period so players don't get injured in between and people are not paying good money to watch second string sides

8 teams? More players playing competitive rugby? We're struggling with 4 sides as it is. 8 teams would mean:

more teams with awful facilities (Bridgend v Neath at the top domestic tier in Wales, really?
standard of rugby diluting as semi pro players introduced
current teams getting worse as a result
less people attending as a result
less money in the game as a result

The other is to install proper regions that represent the whole of Wales not just towns and cities and play in the Aviva Premiership. Plus games could be taken on the road. This would then be bringing rugby to the people as opposed to people being expected to turn up to one venue all the time

By doing that, you'd likely lose the current 20k season ticket holders of the 4 regions. So you're back to square one.

The real answer in all this is to re-structure the Union so that the amateur clubs run their own shop - and the regions run theirs. Currently we have Dai Jones from Llanscratcharse RFC having a say in how the entire Union is run and therefore how pro-rugby is run. So the game will never move forward as long as that is the case.

As for the disenfranchised fans in Wales - there will always be disenfranchised fans - because of the sense of entitlement to professional rugby on everybody's doorstep.

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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:11 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
By doing that, you'd likely lose the current 20k season ticket holders of the 4 regions. So you're back to square one.

The real answer in all this is to re-structure the Union so that the amateur clubs run their own shop - and the regions run theirs. Currently we have Dai Jones from Llanscratcharse RFC having a say in how the entire Union is run and therefore how pro-rugby is run. So the game will never move forward as long as that is the case.

As for the disenfranchised fans in Wales - there will always be disenfranchised fans - because of the sense of entitlement to professional rugby on everybody's doorstep.

I agree that disbanding the Regions is utter nonsense as it would complicate the picture FAR more, having disenfranchised Regional fans (20K and more of them) to add to the current mob.

I also agree that there there will always be disenfranchised fans.

I even agree that  Dai Jones from Llanscratcharse RFC should not have a say in how the entire Union is run and therefore how pro-rugby is run.

Where I differ is that I think there should be a pathway (Buzzword borrowed from Irish Rugby) for players to develop along the lines of Llanscratcharse RFC > Betws y SlightlyBiggerArse Rfc > Premiership team > Region > Team Wales.

Not sure how many levels should exist between Llanscratcharse and Team Wales, but that is what the vote thing is about.

All lower levels should have a say in, is which side in the next level they wish to feed into. Not a say in the running.

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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:13 pm

Conversely. The higher levels could be asked which sides they want to have feeding into them.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:20 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Where I differ is that I think there should be a pathway (Buzzword borrowed from Irish Rugby) for players to develop along the lines of Llanscratcharse RFC > Betws y SlightlyBiggerArse Rfc > Premiership team > Region > Team Wales.

Not sure how many levels should exist between Llanscratcharse and Team Wales, but that is what the vote thing is about.

Regional academies exist atm. Very successfully too. If they do their job properly then the best players fed into these and Premiership teams.

All lower levels should have a say in, is which side in the next level they wish to feed into. Not a say in the running.

So what if evey single club in Wales wants to feed into the Ospreys? Where does that leave you?


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Post by The Saint Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:22 pm

Essentially, with the valleys region, you're talking about making Blues North (academy team) into a region; it could work but I'm not sure where it would be based. Unless it alternates between Ponty and Merthyr. Then there's a case for the capital city being a region in itself. But their stretched for resources as it is, so it might not work. RGC are already there, with an academy, they basically cover the entire north and hopefully it should come to fruition in a few years. This is where the new valleys regions needs to begin.

Before this happens I'd prefer to see a re-vamp of welsh premiership (expand, make it upper and lower tier; look to include North Walian teams) and welsh regional A teams.

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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:22 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:

So what if evey single club in Wales wants to feed into the Ospreys? Where does that leave you?

Laugh

No worse off than if you don't know who wants what.

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Post by The Saint Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:27 pm

On the point of levels between club and team Wales, does anyone know if premiership youth teams still exist? If not then they should.

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Post by Steffan Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:06 pm

The Saint wrote:On the point of levels between club and team Wales, does anyone know if premiership youth teams still exist? If not then they should
Ponty have youth team although I don't know how serious it is taken due to the whole Cardiff Blues North Academy thing

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Post by Steffan Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:16 pm

The Saint wrote:Essentially, with the valleys region, you're talking about making Blues North (academy team) into a region; it could work but I'm not sure where it would be based. Unless it alternates between Ponty and Merthyr
I think this would work fine. I'm all for playing in Ponty and Merthyr as this addresses the north and the south of the Valleys

The Saint wrote:Then there's a case for the capital city being a region in itself. But their stretched for resources as it is, so it might not work
I have no problems with this. They were meant to be a stand alone region anyway in the beginning. Not sure why they would be stretched for resources when they got an endless pot of money behind them  

The Saint wrote:RGC are already there, with an academy, they basically cover the entire north and hopefully it should come to fruition in a few years
A north Wales region. Sounds good to me

The Saint wrote:and welsh regional A teams
This wouldn't make the league fair though. The regional A teams would get to choose all the best players plus they would have all the best facilities. Plus from my own biased point of view I would hate Ponty to lose all our best young players like Jarrod Evans to a regional A team as would other Premiership teams trying to be a successful as possible within the boundaries of semi-professionalism

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Post by Irish Londoner Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:25 pm

The issues in Welsh Rugby will not be resolved until one of two things happen:
1 - The WRU take over control of the professional game and run rugby from top to bottom (The Irish/Scottish model)
2 - The commercial owners take control of the professional game and it's run as a proper risk v reward business. But if said business goes boobies up then it's the clubs problem not the WRUs.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:26 pm

The whole set-up from the start was wrong, it was built on ego's and people with too much money, there should not be two teams in West Wales, neither should there be two teams in East Wales, there should be one in each, one in the valleys and one in North Wales, that's what the four regions should have been from the start. But we had a union on it's knees with debt, and powerful men with lots of money threatening to take the union to court, a battle the union could not afford at the time, now as a result, we have one region half owned by the WRU, another region who needed bail outs off the WRU, another that is in debt to it's owner, and another one that had to let all it's best players go to survive, and none of our regions can compete with the big boys anyway.

Yes things are changing, but it has taken us over a decade to get to where we are, and we still aint any good really. The only shining light has been the performance of the national team in the 6N a couple of times, and a WC semi final last time out, if we did not see an improvement in the national side, for me regionalism would have to have been seen as a failure, but we are where we are now, so I guess we should try, and we need to try and make it work, scrapping and starting again could set us back another ten or more years, people will warm to the regions, but they have to get past my generation first, when you get people who only know regionalism, then and only then will you get the fans, I would say, for the next generation of players, the aim should be, getting into your region, then getting into the Welsh team, and that is how it should work. Also, we need a league that gets the fans excited, at the moment we do not, because it is not seen as a priority by many.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:40 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:The issues in Welsh Rugby will not be resolved until one of two things happen:
1 - The WRU take over control of the professional game and run rugby from top to bottom (The Irish/Scottish model)
2 - The commercial owners take control of the professional game and it's run as a proper risk v reward business. But if said business goes boobies up then it's the clubs problem not the WRUs.

Yes. The second option please. With full control of their destinies and ability to bid for tv rights etc.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:43 pm

Steffan wrote:
The Saint wrote:Essentially, with the valleys region, you're talking about making Blues North (academy team) into a region; it could work but I'm not sure where it would be based. Unless it alternates between Ponty and Merthyr
I think this would work fine. I'm all for playing in Ponty and Merthyr as this addresses the north and the south of the Valleys

The Saint wrote:Then there's a case for the capital city being a region in itself. But their stretched for resources as it is, so it might not work
I have no problems with this. They were meant to be a stand alone region anyway in the beginning. Not sure why they would be stretched for resources when they got an endless pot of money behind them  

The Saint wrote:RGC are already there, with an academy, they basically cover the entire north and hopefully it should come to fruition in a few years
A north Wales region. Sounds good to me

The Saint wrote:and welsh regional A teams
This wouldn't make the league fair though. The regional A teams would get to choose all the best players plus they would have all the best facilities. Plus from my own biased point of view I would hate Ponty to lose all our best young players like Jarrod Evans to a regional A team as would other Premiership teams trying to be a successful as possible within the boundaries of semi-professionalism

The thing is, you can't just magically start a couple of new regions because you feel like it. The whole balance of the pro and semi-pro game will then be shifted. Which could potentially cause chaos.

You take away the Blues academy and make it a region - but the Blues won't give up those players unless the valleys region compensates them for the loss of their entire academy!. So this new magic valley region is left with a worse off team, little infrastructure to create a pro rugby entity and little money behind it.

What does that spell to you?

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Post by Steffan Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:48 pm

LordDowlais wrote:The whole set-up from the start was wrong, it was built on ego's and people with too much money, there should not be two teams in West Wales, neither should there be two teams in East Wales, there should be one in each, one in the valleys and one in North Wales, that's what the four regions should have been from the start. But we had a union on it's knees with debt, and powerful men with lots of money threatening to take the union to court
Agree with this a thousand times over

The stupid thing is as well is that a proper West Wales region now would be made up of a mix of players like Biggar, Liam Williams, JD, Scott Williams, Rhys Webb, AWJ, Samson Lee, Tipuric etc. They would be an awesome outfit

The current "regional" system wasn't set up based on democratic decision based on the good of Welsh rugby...it was set up on the basis of who had the most money and who made the most noise. Regardless of how crap the Pro 12 is, I for one would never line the pocket of Peter Pies. A man who would have rather seen Welsh rugby go bankrupt than see his precious Kaaaaaaaaaaairdiff rugby have to share a setup with other teams

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Post by Chunky Norwich Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:55 pm

Steffan wrote:

The stupid thing is as well is that a proper West Wales region now would be made up of a mix of players like Biggar, Liam Williams, JD, Scott Williams, Rhys Webb, AWJ, Samson Lee, Tipuric etc. They would be an awesome outfit

Where would they play? What would they be called?

The current "regional" system wasn't set up based on democratic decision based on the good of Welsh rugby...it was set up on the basis of who had the most money and who made the most noise. Regardless of how crap the Pro 12 is, I for one would never line the pocket of Peter Pies. A man who would have rather seen Welsh rugby go bankrupt than see his precious Kaaaaaaaaaaairdiff rugby have to share a setup with other teams

This is Cardiff rugby club we're talking about. The day an entity like that dies to become the East Wales snakes, is the day rugby dies.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:01 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:Where would they play? What would they be called?

Do they need a base though, Munster travel around their region, perhaps they could have used the Liberty Stadium for the big games, and used Stradey for lesser games.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:03 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:Where would they play? What would they be called?

Do they need a base though, Munster travel around their region, perhaps they could have used the Liberty Stadium for the big games, and used Stradey for lesser games.

That would have alienated a massive, massive section of rugby supporters in Wales. Including myself.

There's no one size fits all approach but that would be like merging Leicester and Northampton, and using Welford Rd to host the Midland Mammoths Rugby club.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:05 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:This is Cardiff rugby club we're talking about. The day an entity like that dies to become the East Wales snakes, is the day rugby dies.

This really does make me laugh now, ok, Cardiff came good in the nineties after them and Swansea made that breakaway during the rebels season, but before then they never used to win nowt, it was always Pontypool, Neath and Llanelli when I was growing up. Cardiff are not the trail blazers they would have you believe.

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Post by Steffan Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:05 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:Where would they play? What would they be called?
The Liberty Stadium and Parc Y Scarlets wouldn't be a bad start. Not sure on the name. But something new and marketable (not like West Wales Scarlet Swans etc.)


Chunky Norwich wrote:This is Cardiff rugby club we're talking about. The day an entity like that dies to become the East Wales snakes, is the day rugby dies
Yeah...being the lowest ranked British & Irish team in the Pro 12 and never winning any Silverware year after year really shows how much the club is bigger than rugby itself

Still...at least the mighty Kaaaaaaairdiff know which stadium want to play in now. Unless Pies decides that after the Cardifff City Stadium failure the club is now back on its feet and worthy of every home match at the Millennium Stadium

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:07 am

Steffan wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:Where would they play? What would they be called?
The Liberty Stadium and Parc Y Scarlets wouldn't be a bad start. Not sure on the name. But something new and marketable (not like West Wales Scarlet Swans etc.)

I wouldn't be buying in. Terrible idea.


Yeah...being the lowest ranked British & Irish team in the Pro 12 and never winning any Silverware year after year really shows how much the club is bigger than rugby itself

Still...at least the mighty Kaaaaaaairdiff know which stadium want to play in now. Unless Pies decides that after the Cardifff City Stadium failure the club is now back on its feet and worth of every home match at the Millennium Stadium

The irony is, that given the chance you'd have Ponty replace the blues in a  heartbeat. The good of the game would go out the window then.

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Post by Steffan Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:12 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:This is Cardiff rugby club we're talking about. The day an entity like that dies to become the East Wales snakes, is the day rugby dies.

This really does make me laugh now, ok, Cardiff came good in the nineties after them and Swansea made that breakaway during the rebels season, but before then they never used to win nowt, it was always Pontypool, Neath and Llanelli when I was growing up. Cardiff are not the trail blazers they would have you believe.
I'm used to this LD. I've worked with Kaaaaidiff rugby fans in the past all who believe that the club has some kind of God-like status over everyone else in Wales

It's this kind of sickening arrogance that has got us in the domestic mess we are in now

People can get the sticky tissues out to maybe 40,000 people turning up to a double header in the Millennium but in reality and the big picture Twickenham would sell out for a day like this as did the old national stadium on cup final days before the "regions" came in

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:16 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:Where would they play? What would they be called?

Do they need a base though, Munster travel around their region, perhaps they could have used the Liberty Stadium for the big games, and used Stradey for lesser games.

That would have alienated a massive, massive section of rugby supporters in Wales. Including myself.

There's no one size fits all approach but that would be like merging Leicester and Northampton, and using Welford Rd to host the Midland Mammoths Rugby club.

Yes I agree, but luckily for you you were not alienated, but more WERE then WERE NOT. You have a massive population in the valleys who do not buy into regionalism, add all the Rhondda valeys, Merthyr, Aberdare, Pontypridd, Cearphilly, Brecon, and you have a bigger population than that of Swansea and Llanelli put together, ALL those people were alienated, not to mention people from the North Gwent Valleys, Ebbw Vale, Tredegar, Bleanau, Abergavenny, Bargoed, Blackwood, Beufort, and you will probably have a quarter of the population of Wales alienated, I reckon losing 25,000 people in Llanelli, is not as bad as losing 250,000 people from the valleys. Also, before anybody picks me up (Saint), I just used those populations as a ball park figure, they are not accurate.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:16 am

So if a team doesn't win anything for a while it should b disbanded in favour of something else?

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:18 am

LordDowlais wrote:

Yes I agree, but luckily for you you were not alienated, but more WERE then WERE NOT. You have a massive population in the valleys who do not buy into regionalism, add all the Rhondda valeys, Merthyr, Aberdare, Pontypridd, Cearphilly, Brecon, and you have a bigger population than that of Swansea and Llanelli put together, ALL those people were alienated, not to mention people from the North Gwent Valleys, Ebbw Vale, Tredegar, Bleanau, Abergavenny, Bargoed, Blackwood, Beufort, and you will probably have a quarter of the population of Wales alienated, I reckon losing 25,000 people in Llanelli, is not as bad as losing 250,000 people from the valleys. Also, before anybody picks me up (Saint), I just used those populations as a ball park figure, they are not accurate.

You're figures are all over the place. We're talking people with a vested interest in paying hard earned money to buy season tickets. Creating new plastic regions for a few armchair fans is going to kill the game overnight.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:21 am

Steffan wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:This is Cardiff rugby club we're talking about. The day an entity like that dies to become the East Wales snakes, is the day rugby dies.

This really does make me laugh now, ok, Cardiff came good in the nineties after them and Swansea made that breakaway during the rebels season, but before then they never used to win nowt, it was always Pontypool, Neath and Llanelli when I was growing up. Cardiff are not the trail blazers they would have you believe.
I'm used to this LD. I've worked with Kaaaaidiff rugby fans in the past all who believe that the club has some kind of God-like status over everyone else in Wales

It's this kind of sickening arrogance that has got us in the domestic mess we are in now

People can get the sticky tissues out to maybe 40,000 people turning up to a double header in the Millennium but in reality and the big picture Twickenham would sell out for a day like this as did the old national stadium on cup final days before the "regions" came in

Laugh

I know where you are coming from Stef, I actually go and watch the Blues quite regularly, and just because I come from Merthyr and I drive a decent car, and dress tidy, they came up with the name LordDowlais for me, I take it as a bit of fun, but most of them think civilization stops anywhere north of Radyr. The funny thing is, I bet there are more well off people around the valleys than there is in the whole of Cardiff. Laugh



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Post by XR Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:23 am

It's the sense of entitlement that gets me with Pontypridd fans. They feel they deserve a pro team. the fact is Cardiff RFC Ltd stumped up £1million to be a stand alone region, PRFC couldn't do that because they were on the bones of their backside and were merged with bridgend who had the benefactor, Samuels.

PRFC had their pro team but because it wasn't called Ponty and playing at Sardis they didn't support it, it folded and then they were aligned to the Blues region....the region whose owners paid £1 million to represent solely Cardiff only a year prior. Who should be more peaved at this?

If PRFC want to show they can be successful without Cardiff money then go ahead, all academy and full time contracts Cardiff RFC Ltd players should go to the rags. The fact remains that whilst they may be Pontypridd RFC, they thrive off Cardiff RFC money.

If anyone fancies a laugh, check out @owenins on twitter. Played for Pontypridd a few years back and is the most deluded person i have ever seen when it comes to opinions on rugby.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:27 am

gcBlues wrote:It's the sense of entitlement that gets me with Pontypridd fans. They feel they deserve a pro team. the fact is Cardiff RFC Ltd stumped up £1million to be a stand alone region, PRFC couldn't do that because they were on the bones of their backside and were merged with bridgend who had the benefactor, Samuels.

PRFC had their pro team but because it wasn't called Ponty and playing at Sardis they didn't support it, it folded and then they were aligned to the Blues region....the region whose owners paid £1 million to represent solely Cardiff only a year prior. Who should be more peaved at this?

If PRFC want to show they can be successful without Cardiff money then go ahead, all academy and full time contracts Cardiff RFC Ltd players should go to the rags. The fact remains that whilst they may be Pontypridd RFC, they thrive off Cardiff RFC money.

If anyone fancies a laugh, check out @owenins on twitter. Played for Pontypridd a few years back and is the most deluded person i have ever seen when it comes to opinions on rugby.

Exactly. The disenfranchised valley fans plead that what we need is the good of the game in Wales, but the reality is, all they want is the pipedream of pro rugby on their doorstep to come true.

When the regions first came into being I had genuine sympathy with Pontypridd fans, but seeing how the vast majority of them have behaved towards pro domestic rugby and other regionally owned semi pro teams over the last 10 years -  that has waned.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:28 am

gcBlues wrote:PRFC had their pro team but because it wasn't called Ponty and playing at Sardis they didn't support it,

Not true, by a country mile, the games that were played at Ponty were always a sell out, they stopped playing there becuase Leighton Samuels threw his toys out of the pram, because Pontypridd RFC would not sell him their ground. Thus he took all the games to Bridgend and lost a hell of a lot of support along with it.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:29 am

gcBlues wrote:If PRFC want to show they can be successful without Cardiff money then go ahead, all academy and full time contracts Cardiff RFC Ltd players should go to the rags. The fact remains that whilst they may be Pontypridd RFC, they thrive off Cardiff RFC money.

That I agree with, NOW, but if the Warriors were kept, I reckon they would be thriving now.


Last edited by LordDowlais on Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:31 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:29 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:

Yes I agree, but luckily for you you were not alienated, but more WERE then WERE NOT. You have a massive population in the valleys who do not buy into regionalism, add all the Rhondda valeys, Merthyr, Aberdare, Pontypridd, Cearphilly, Brecon, and you have a bigger population than that of Swansea and Llanelli put together, ALL those people were alienated, not to mention people from the North Gwent Valleys, Ebbw Vale, Tredegar, Bleanau, Abergavenny, Bargoed, Blackwood, Beufort, and you will probably have a quarter of the population of Wales alienated, I reckon losing 25,000 people in Llanelli, is not as bad as losing 250,000 people from the valleys. Also, before anybody picks me up (Saint), I just used those populations as a ball park figure, they are not accurate.

You're figures are all over the place. We're talking people with a vested interest in paying hard earned money to buy season tickets. Creating new plastic regions for a few armchair fans is going to kill the game overnight.

I totally agree with that point.

No disrespect to anyone, but the fans that keep the teams going are the ones who turn up at the stadium and pay cash into the system. If the folk from the valleys had turned up and put their cash into their side they would still have the warriors there. The true loss of fans to rugby due tot he Warriors going belly up was what 15k at a push (and I do have a real sympathy for them), however the rest are just bleating as it gives them an excuse to bleat.

It would be the same should any of the other regions fold. There are probably about 20-30k regular (a few times a season of more) money paying fans for each region. The majority of the welsh public are happy to watch the regions playing on telly, and have a favourite side, but do nothing more than that. They are no better than the people who whinge about the government, but can't be bothered to turn out and vote!
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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:34 am

LordDowlais wrote:
gcBlues wrote:PRFC had their pro team but because it wasn't called Ponty and playing at Sardis they didn't support it,

Not true, by a country mile, the games that were played at Ponty were always a sell out, they stopped playing there becuase Leighton Samuels threw his toys out of the pram, because Pontypridd RFC would not sell him their ground. Thus he took all the games to Bridgend and lost a hell of a lot of support along with it.

And that is why if you started to 'share' games out around grounds in the regions you would lose fans too. People from say Carmarthen/Llandovery would be happy to host a Scarlets, until they realise that they are being pooped upon and only given the dross games like LV= or Zebre/Treviso, that include no star players etc. Then they would whip out the disenfranchised card too.
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Post by Steffan Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:34 am

LordDowlais wrote:The funny thing is, I bet there are more well off people around the valleys than there is in the whole of Cardiff
I agree. My family are loaded yet the amount of times someone from a council house in Cardiff (not that there is anything wrong with that but people in glass houses etc.) have given me the whole..."Oh you're from Ponty are you. I best make sure my car is locked when your around etc."

One girl I worked with text me once saying she was up my 'up my neck of the woods'. Turned out she was in Merthyr. Yeah cos Merthyr is really up Pontypridd's neck of the woods ain't it. Another one once referred to the pink cowboy hate brigade as "your lot". I'm proud to be Welsh but the cultural and geographic ignorance from Kaaaaairdiff people at times really makes a lot of them hard to like which is a shame as it's a wonderful city to work and live in

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:37 am

Steffan wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The funny thing is, I bet there are more well off people around the valleys than there is in the whole of Cardiff
I agree. My family are loaded yet the amount of times someone from a council house in Cardiff (not that there is anything wrong with that but people in glass houses etc.) have given me the whole..."Oh you're from Ponty are you. I best make sure my car is locked when your around etc."

One girl I worked with text me once saying she was up my 'up my neck of the woods'. Turned out she was in Merthyr. Yeah cos Merthyr is really up Pontypridd's neck of the woods ain't it. Another one once referred to the pink cowboy hate brigade as "your lot". I'm proud to be Welsh but the cultural and geographic ignorance from Cardiff people at times really makes a lot of them hard to like which is a shame as it's a wonderful city to work and live in

From my experience at Sardis Road in the last decade, perhaps you bring it on all yourself. I've never been treated as I have been at Sardis Rd. Even an elderly lady Ponty fan told one of our female fans to **** off.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:39 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
gcBlues wrote:PRFC had their pro team but because it wasn't called Ponty and playing at Sardis they didn't support it,

Not true, by a country mile, the games that were played at Ponty were always a sell out, they stopped playing there becuase Leighton Samuels threw his toys out of the pram, because Pontypridd RFC would not sell him their ground. Thus he took all the games to Bridgend and lost a hell of a lot of support along with it.

And that is why if you started to 'share' games out around grounds in the regions you would lose fans too.  People from say Carmarthen/Llandovery would be happy to host a Scarlets, until they realise that they are being pooped upon and only given the dross games like LV= or Zebre/Treviso, that include no star players etc.  Then they would whip out the disenfranchised card too.

No SS, he did not share the games, he took the lot to Bridgend, lock,stock and barrel, that is why the Ponty fans stuck two fingers up to HIM, not the Warriors. Also,I do not mean just LV= games, I mean take league games there as well.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:39 am

Steffan wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The funny thing is, I bet there are more well off people around the valleys than there is in the whole of Cardiff
I agree. My family are loaded yet the amount of times someone from a council house in Cardiff (not that there is anything wrong with that but people in glass houses etc.) have given me the whole..."Oh you're from Ponty are you. I best make sure my car is locked when your around etc."

One girl I worked with text me once saying she was up my 'up my neck of the woods'. Turned out she was in Merthyr. Yeah cos Merthyr is really up Pontypridd's neck of the woods ain't it. Another one once referred to the pink cowboy hate brigade as "your lot". I'm proud to be Welsh but the cultural and geographic ignorance from Kaaaaairdiff people at times really makes a lot of them hard to like which is a shame as it's a wonderful city to work and live in

Steff, I think that sort of ignorance is a not just a Cardiff thing, but a city/big town problem in general.
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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:40 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Steff, I think that sort of ignorance is a not just a Cardiff thing, but a city/big town problem in general.

A Cardiff rugby fan once told me he was off to West Wales for the weekend. When I asked where, he said "Porthcawl" !

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:44 am

LordDowlais wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
gcBlues wrote:PRFC had their pro team but because it wasn't called Ponty and playing at Sardis they didn't support it,

Not true, by a country mile, the games that were played at Ponty were always a sell out, they stopped playing there becuase Leighton Samuels threw his toys out of the pram, because Pontypridd RFC would not sell him their ground. Thus he took all the games to Bridgend and lost a hell of a lot of support along with it.

And that is why if you started to 'share' games out around grounds in the regions you would lose fans too.  People from say Carmarthen/Llandovery would be happy to host a Scarlets, until they realise that they are being pooped upon and only given the dross games like LV= or Zebre/Treviso, that include no star players etc.  Then they would whip out the disenfranchised card too.

No SS, he did not share the games, he took the lot to Bridgend, lock,stock and barrel, that is why the Ponty fans stuck two fingers up to HIM, not the Warriors. Also,I do not mean just LV= games, I mean take league games there as well.

I remember the games were not shared back then.

The 'sharing' issue is that the big games will be in the big stadiums. So that is 4 derbies, and Euro games in the big stadia. Then there will be the Irish, and Glasgow in the next biggest stadia, and finally the LV= and Italians/Edinburgh/Connacht in the smallest stadia. And that will lead to the "I am not going to games as we only get the meaningless games" moan.

Truth is people moan, and they will moan whatever. Those who give a monkeys will turn up, and they will turn up whatever (regardless of the journey they need to make, I mean I do 120 mile round trip each home game and never moan about it).
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Post by Steffan Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:45 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:From my experience at Sardis Road in the last decade, perhaps you bring it on all yourself. I've never been treated as I have been at Sardis Rd. Even an elderly lady Ponty fan told one of our female fans to **** off
I'm if that experience happened to you but you can't condemn a whole county of people based on a few idiots at a rugby match. To be honest there are a few people who watch Ponty that I would rather not be there (the ref bashing brigade for starters) but most of us are decent knowledgeable rugby fans

I don't bring it on myself as I don't give it the big Valleys act infact I have (and for some reason always had) an accent many people have said is rather Cardiffy so most people I speak to don't even know I'm not from there originally

That programme called "The Valleys" didn't help mind. Made out that in Cardiff the streets are paved with gold but if you got evicted or whatever it was from the house then it's back to the Valleys concentration camp for you boyo for life of poverty and drug abuse

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:45 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Steff, I think that sort of ignorance is a not just a Cardiff thing, but a city/big town problem in general.

A Cardiff rugby fan once told me he was off to West Wales for the weekend. When I asked where, he said "Porthcawl" !

That is one I have had issues with when people draw up their 'ideal regions', people seem to believe that Swansea/Llanelli are as west as wales goes.
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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:50 am

So what are the names of these new plastic regions that the disenfranchised folk want to bring in, and where do they play the majority of home games?

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Post by Steffan Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:58 am

gcBlues wrote:If anyone fancies a laugh, check out @owenins on twitter. Played for Pontypridd a few years back and is the most deluded person i have ever seen when it comes to opinions on rugby
More than a 'few years back'. Mid 90s. Owen Robbins what good player he was. Always held his own against Nigel Walker and Ieuan Evans etc.

I haven't checked out his opinion yet but its clear that you don't like Ponty or Valleys rugby in general so I guess anything he says that is pro-Valleys you are going to disagree with and try to moc

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Post by SecretFly Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:04 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Then there will be the Irish, and Glasgow in the next biggest stadia, and finally the LV= and Italians/Edinburgh/Connacht in the smallest stadia.

The f**king Irish is a f**king middle ranked stadium??? Oh the f**king disrespect! We demand you build a 90,000 seater specifically for Irish games!

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Post by Steffan Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:05 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:That is one I have had issues with when people draw up their 'ideal regions', people seem to believe that Swansea/Llanelli are as west as wales goes
As someone who holidays on Pembrokeshire I agree that West Wales does not stop at Llanelli but to be fair it was the Scarlets who played the whole 'We are the team of West Wales and we should be a region' card back in 2003 so they are responsible for lack of pro rugby rugby past Parc Y Scarlets. That being said there is no stadium further west capable of hosting a big match that I am aware of unless there is some 20,000 all seater stadium in Pembroke Dock that I don't know about

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Post by Steffan Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:17 am

Also, remember when Llanelli said they were going to be the "region" of North Wales

That went down like a like a spliff at a rehab centre laughing

A couple of token games and yet another WRU bail out later...

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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:19 am

So let's see if I have this right.

Financially....

Newport RFC and the WRU "Own" the Dragons region. Ebbw Vale having dropped out.

Neath RFC and Swansea RFC "Own" the "One True Region"

Cardiff RFC and Lanelli RFC "Own" their regions.

Effectively....

Caerphilly is closer to Cardiff geographically but in The Dragons Region and (relatively) happy?

Ebbw are up the north end of the Valleys but part of the Dragons and (relatively) happy?

Bridgend are now part of the Ospreys and (relatively) happy?

RGC1404 are part of the Scarlets and (relatively) happy?

Pontyprid are north west of Cardiff and although in the Cardiff region neither side is in the least bit happy.


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Post by Steffan Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:38 am

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Pontyprid are north west of Cardiff and although in the Cardiff region neither side is in the least bit happy
The Ponty section are not happy. While Cardiff rugby fans dislike Ponty just as much they enjoy us being a part of their setup and on more than one occasion I have had the Cardiff rugby crew gloat that "we own you now bla bla"

Moffett was naive enough to think that Ponty fans would switch allegiance and start flocking to the Arms Park to chant "Kaaaairdiff" every week. Then when he was trying to out Rodger Lewis he started giving the whole "Ponty should be a region" to try and win support. That man is an idiot

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:38 am

Hi just got back, sorry for the late replies, I also know how far West Wales goes, I have a static caravan in Sageston, a lovely part of the world, although the infrastructure is not the best down there, but as somebody told me my figures were way out, I decided to do some digging, so according to the interweb, these are the population figures for the biggest towns in the valleys:-

Rhondda 72443
Merthyr 59500
Aberdare 31705
PontyPridd 29781
Cearphilly 30388
Brecon 7901

There are loads of villages I have not encluded as well, so perhaps you could another few thousand to the final figure.

So that is a massive 231718 people who are potentialy alienated, that is roughly the population of Swansea, and Llanelli has a population of 49591. So make of that what you will, also I have not counted the Gwent Valleys. I would imagine they are not far off the valleys of Glamorgan.

So 231718 is a massive chunk of the population to leave out considering how small a country we actually are.

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Post by Steffan Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:49 am

You're wasting your time LD

Anyone who questions the current system is seen as a deluded by this lot on here

This rather apathetic attitude of "Oh well we have to make do with what we got now" is very negative as well

Domestic Welsh rugby needs change. I don't have all the answers, but the current setup will keep people from the game and domestic Welsh rugby will never reach the heights that it once did and will never be able to compete with the rest of Europe on a domestic level

Sadly the WRU does not seem to care as long as the pink cowboy hat brigade and the corporate boys are willing to fork out £70-100 a ticket to watch the national team

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