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Pro12 Value - The Facts (continued)

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Post by George Carlin Wed 22 Apr 2015, 11:38 am

A continuation of Chunky Norwich's original thread:
https://www.606v2.com/t58514-pro12-value-the-facts
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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 22 Apr 2015, 11:40 am

For a WUM thread this one sure had legs Rolling Eyes picard
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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 22 Apr 2015, 11:43 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:WUM

Sigh.


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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 22 Apr 2015, 11:49 am

Don't urinate in my ear and tell me it's raining Norwich, you hate the pro-12 and can’t resist having a little dig at any opportunity.

You're thread has mutated and evolved like a virus countering treatment drugs. The thread has gone from having not enough money to be sustainable, to not attracting enough money, to not having enough fans, to not having good players to having a poor league structure and back again.

The fact that this has run for over a thousand posts is simply staggering.
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Post by LordDowlais Wed 22 Apr 2015, 11:54 am

It threw up some goods points though, and it certainly changed my opinion of certain fractions of supporters on here. king

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 22 Apr 2015, 11:55 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Don't urinate in my ear and tell me it's raining Norwich, you hate the pro-12 and can’t resist having a little dig at any opportunity.

You're thread has mutated and evolved like a virus countering treatment drugs. The thread has gone from having not enough money to be sustainable, to not attracting enough money, to not having enough fans, to not having good players to having a poor league structure and back again.

The fact that this has run for over a thousand posts is simply staggering.

Maybe your definition of a windup differs from mine then.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 22 Apr 2015, 12:04 pm

Not sure if this Mark Orders piece was covered in the last thread:

A LITTLE unfortunate, really, for Leinster chief executive Mick Dawson to tell the Welsh regions what they need to do to enhance the Pro12 at a time when his own province have not exactly been double-underlining the importance of the four-nation competition.

Dawson was quoted as saying the league needs a brand makeover, given the huge TV deals landed by the Top 14 and the Aviva Premiership.

"We need Welsh clubs to make a serious effort to get players back from France and England. We need Scottish clubs to up their game," he said.

Fair enough, but what about Irish provinces fielding their strongest sides?

Last weekend, Leinster didn't let a desperate need for league points prevent them from turning up at Rodney Parade with a team that showed 12 changes from the one that had played in Europe the week before.

It didn't exactly scream out how highly the Pro12 is valued.

Yes, it would be nice to repatriate Welsh exiles.

But there is only so much money in the pot and it isn't altogether certain that it is enough to cover keeping young talent at home as well as bringing the old heads back.

Let's return to Ireland.

The leagues in England and France have a high value partly because the best players play when it matters.

But over Christmas, Jamie Heaslip — six league starts this term — Sean Cronin, Mike Ross, Rob Kearney, Paul O'Connell, Conor Murray and Peter O'Mahony were all absent for the showpiece Munster v Leinster derby under the IRFU's player welfare programme.

What were sponsors and broadcasters to make of that?

For sure, it isn't just the Welsh regions and Scottish provinces who need to work a bit harder.


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Post by LordDowlais Wed 22 Apr 2015, 12:10 pm

Chunky, yes that was covered, mostly by me, but do not expect the Irish on here to admit to any fault.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 22 Apr 2015, 12:12 pm

We can but try.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 22 Apr 2015, 12:27 pm

I think everyone would love the best players to be playing week in week out but its not possible with the way the season is structured. How many times does that need to be said?

Leinster played Toulon on Sunday and play Ulster on Friday so they had to rotate for that Dragons game (we played Bath the week before in a brusier).

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Post by The Saint Wed 22 Apr 2015, 12:32 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Don't urinate in my ear and tell me it's raining Norwich, you hate the pro-12 and can’t resist having a little dig at any opportunity.

He feels strongly about his point of view, and he has evidence to back up his opinions. I wouldn't call it a WUM just because it's an unpopular opinion.

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Post by The Saint Wed 22 Apr 2015, 12:34 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I think everyone would love the best players to be playing week in week out but its not possible with the way the season is structured. How many times does that need to be said?

Leinster played Toulon on Sunday and play Ulster on Friday so they had to rotate for that Dragons game (we played Bath the week before in a brusier).

True, that's why I applaud the Irish. Able to rotate and still maintain a high finish. Leinster have done it for a while but I believe this will be the first time they have finished outside of the top 2/top 4. Now suddenly it's down to them rotating their squad, rather than other teams playing better. BTW, I think this year you might have also had more key players injured than in previous seasons.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 22 Apr 2015, 12:36 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I think everyone would love the best players to be playing week in week out but its not possible with the way the season is structured. How many times does that need to be said?

Leinster played Toulon on Sunday and play Ulster on Friday so they had to rotate for that Dragons game (we played Bath the week before in a brusier).

But what is the excuse for this ?

But over Christmas, Jamie Heaslip — six league starts this term — Sean Cronin, Mike Ross, Rob Kearney, Paul O'Connell, Conor Murray and Peter O'Mahony were all absent for the showpiece Munster v Leinster derby under the IRFU's player welfare programme.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 22 Apr 2015, 12:36 pm

The Saint wrote:

True, that's why I applaud the Irish. Able to rotate and still maintain a high finish.

To be fair, they do have twice the budgets that anyone else in the league has. So their squads are going to be twice as strong.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 22 Apr 2015, 12:38 pm

I agreed with people about their squad rotation, but it is still not playing your best players in the league, and that in itself IS damaging to the league.

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Post by Guest Wed 22 Apr 2015, 12:38 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Don't urinate in my ear and tell me it's raining Norwich, you hate the pro-12 and can’t resist having a little dig at any opportunity.

You're thread has mutated and evolved like a virus countering treatment drugs. The thread has gone from having not enough money to be sustainable, to not attracting enough money, to not having enough fans, to not having good players to having a poor league structure and back again.

The fact that this has run for over a thousand posts is simply staggering.


I've been enjoying the debate to be honest. Proper WUM threads get pulled or die a death in under a page of posts. That this one has exceeded 1000 posts suggests that people want to debate and discuss. Maybe just stick to the Scottish Banter thread if this one isn't or you (8 threads long now, BTW. Kudos).

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 22 Apr 2015, 12:39 pm

Actually our injury list hasn't been bad at all since christmas but Leinster just have not played well at all this year. It happens, it doesn't mean we don't value the league. It also hasn't helped that the likes of the Scarlets, Edinburgh, Connacht and even the Dragons have all improved this season and also the Ospreys are back playing some great stuff.

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Post by bedfordwelsh Wed 22 Apr 2015, 12:41 pm

Rotating/resting players are part and parcel of the game though, some teams can manage it better and have stronger depth to their squad so even by rotating they can still put out pretty strong side.

I do think the new format of qualification will help as teams will have to put their strongest sides out more often and from an earlier point in the season or risk not qualifying for the main euro comp.
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 22 Apr 2015, 12:43 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:I think everyone would love the best players to be playing week in week out but its not possible with the way the season is structured. How many times does that need to be said?

Leinster played Toulon on Sunday and play Ulster on Friday so they had to rotate for that Dragons game (we played Bath the week before in a brusier).

But what is the excuse for this ?

But over Christmas, Jamie Heaslip — six league starts this term — Sean Cronin, Mike Ross, Rob Kearney, Paul O'Connell, Conor Murray and Peter O'Mahony were all absent for the showpiece Munster v Leinster derby under the IRFU's player welfare programme.
I just told you... Its the structure of the season that is the problem. How can Heaslip play for Leinster when there is a 6 nations game or an AI on the same time Leinster are playing? It's rediculous how there are club amd international games on the same weekend. Also the new CC structure is not helping things aswell.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 22 Apr 2015, 12:46 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I just told you... Its the structure of the season that is the problem. How can Heaslip play for Leinster when there is a 6 nations game or an AI on the same time Leinster are playing? It's rediculous how there are club amd international games on the same weekend. Also the new CC structure is not helping things aswell.

But the game in question was over the Christmas period, so there were no international games to take the players.

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Post by Notch Wed 22 Apr 2015, 12:47 pm

There is an IRFU training camp over Christmas. It's a key week to prepare for the Six Nations. Most frontline international players are not available for selection for one game in that period most years.
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 22 Apr 2015, 12:50 pm

The players were being rested after the AIs I assume but they really should have been playing in that game. The game still managed to get almost 26k people to it!

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Post by Guest Wed 22 Apr 2015, 12:51 pm

I too agree that the Irish can do this because they've got the funds to retain the top players and build strong squads below/around them. They've got the required depth. But we (the Welsh) want the required depth too. It's something we aspire to. But that costs money. So these threads, and a lot of the 1000 posts, are discussing and debating how we in Wales can get the money and resources to have similar depth and the ability to compete well enough at top end. That will improve the Pro12. Getting that extra money is dependent on a number of factors, but unfortunately these factors, and the changes that are needed to influence them, do not sit well with our Pro12 partners - better TV deals, changes to the regions to make them more marketable to fans, looking for additional income revenues (e.g. the LV cup, for which the Irish and Scottish threatened to kick us out of the league for taking part in). You say 'get your house in order' and we are. Very slowly! We're starting to bring players back home. We're introducing DCs. We've got rid of the WRU chief and chairman and replaced the chairman with a regional man. We've all been involved in the discussions with the TV bigwigs about bettering the commercial deal, the involvement of BT sport, etc. Things are starting to shift. But we still need these discussions.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 22 Apr 2015, 12:56 pm

Griff, I thought this thread was about how we can improve the revenues of the Pro12 via the media and advertising. Whilst I agree that the Irish are doing nothing wrong with rotating players, not putting the best players out in the league is part of the failings of it, it is not the only reason though, as I have stated all the way through this debate, but the Irish supporters on here just keep telling us it is all because of our in-fighting and our attitudes, when that is not entirely true.

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Post by Sin é Wed 22 Apr 2015, 1:00 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
The Saint wrote:

True, that's why I applaud the Irish. Able to rotate and still maintain a high finish.

To be fair, they do have twice the budgets that anyone else in the league has. So their squads are going to be twice as strong.

And the reason why the Provinces might have better budgets is because
a) The Irish Provinces have fans who buy tickets and go to games (on average 2 to 3 times what a Welsh or Scottish team would have)
b) as a result, they get good sponsorship.

The Irish Provinces are just copying what the French teams do, rest their important players for the away games (and for the record, POC played v Connacht the week before and picked up a shoulder injury).

So Chunky here are a few ideas as to how to improve the finances of the Pro12 clubs:

Find some fans who are willing to pay to go to matches and stop looking for handouts.



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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 22 Apr 2015, 1:04 pm

Sin é wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
The Saint wrote:

True, that's why I applaud the Irish. Able to rotate and still maintain a high finish.

To be fair, they do have twice the budgets that anyone else in the league has. So their squads are going to be twice as strong.

And the reason why the Provinces might have better budgets is because
a) The Irish Provinces have fans who buy tickets and go to games (on average 2 to 3 times what a Welsh or Scottish team would have)
b) as a result, they get good sponsorship.


Yup. No arguments there.

The Irish Provinces are just copying what the French teams do, rest their important players for the away games (and for the record, POC played v Connacht the week before and picked up a shoulder injury).

So Chunky here are a few ideas as to how to improve the finances of the Pro12 clubs:

Find some fans who are willing to pay to go to matches and stop looking for handouts.

The fans will come when there is something attractive to watch.

What are these handouts you speak of?

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Post by bedfordwelsh Wed 22 Apr 2015, 1:08 pm

I am sure someone will have but is there anyone out there who has numbers of fans that the provinces were getting when they first set out and also what they were getting at the same stage our Regions are at now.
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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 22 Apr 2015, 1:12 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:I am sure someone will have but is there anyone out there who has numbers of fans that the provinces were getting when they first set out and also what they were getting at the same stage our Regions are at now.

What do you mean "the same stage"?

In the Celtic Leagues first season, Leinster's average home crowd was 4,711

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Post by Guest Wed 22 Apr 2015, 1:15 pm

I think he means since 2001 when they joined the celtic league?  Before that they just played Inter Provincial games I think.

They were certainly lower in most cases than when the regions were formed.  One way to look is to go onto the Dragons site (or Newport RFC for the 2001-02 years) to see the fixtures, results and attendances.

Edit: Yes, same stage is a hard one to quantify. Do you mean 12 years in as the 'same stage' Bedford? We're not exactly just starting out!

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Post by Sin é Wed 22 Apr 2015, 1:16 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
The Saint wrote:

True, that's why I applaud the Irish. Able to rotate and still maintain a high finish.

To be fair, they do have twice the budgets that anyone else in the league has. So their squads are going to be twice as strong.

And the reason why the Provinces might have better budgets is because
a) The Irish Provinces have fans who buy tickets and go to games (on average 2 to 3 times what a Welsh or Scottish team would have)
b) as a result, they get good sponsorship.


Yup. No arguments there.

The Irish Provinces are just copying what the French teams do, rest their important players for the away games (and for the record, POC played v Connacht the week before and picked up a shoulder injury).

So Chunky here are a few ideas as to how to improve the finances of the Pro12 clubs:

Find some fans who are willing to pay to go to matches and stop looking for handouts.

The fans will come when there is something attractive to watch.

What are these handouts you speak of?

Loads of money (from TV for instance) even though no one is interested in regional rugby because its apparently not attractive.


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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 22 Apr 2015, 1:20 pm

Sin é wrote:

Loads of money (from TV for instance) even though no one is interested in regional rugby because its apparently not attractive.


Why is it a handout then, if someone is paying for an agreed service?

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Post by Guest Wed 22 Apr 2015, 1:21 pm

Sin e, I think Chunky has a point here.  Isn't it a bit more difficult to attract good TV sponsorship if the TV people and sponsors think that the teams rest their players all the time.  Even if that's the perception it becomes a bit of a stigma.  In the Aviva Prem they rest and rotate too, but the opposite is perceived - that it's better league because the top players play all the time and do not rest.  We all know how much marketing and attracting sponsors is based on perception, whether right or wrong.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 22 Apr 2015, 1:24 pm

Griff wrote:Sin e, I think Chunky has a point here.  Isn't it a bit more difficult to attract good TV sponsorship if the TV people and sponsors think that the teams rest their players all the time.  Even if that's the perceptioe it becomes a bit of a stigma.  In the Aviva Prem they rest and rotate too, but the opposite is perceived - that it's better league because the top players play all the time and do not rest.  We all know how much marketing and attracting sponsors is based on perception, whether right or wrong.

They will not have it Griff, they will keep telling us it is because of our in-fighting, letting players leave, and that we keep rubbishing the league all the time. I have debated over thousand posts with this exact same point, but they just cannot see it.

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Post by Guest Wed 22 Apr 2015, 1:30 pm

But we all do it, LD.  Even the lowly Dragons rest and rotate their 'stars'.  There is nothing wrong with it.  It is needed.  But we have to change the perception that it alters the TV product.  England still manage to market their league well for the TV companies, even though they rest and rotate.  We have to convince the TV people that the same applies here, otherwise we won't get better deals in future.

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Post by Sin é Wed 22 Apr 2015, 1:40 pm

Griff wrote:I too agree that the Irish can do this because they've got the funds to retain the top players and build strong squads below/around them.  They've got the required depth.  But we (the Welsh) want the required depth too.  It's something we aspire to.  But that costs money.  So these threads, and a lot of the 1000 posts, are discussing and debating how we in Wales can get the money and resources to have similar depth and the ability to compete well enough at top end.  That will improve the Pro12.  Getting that extra money is dependent on a number of factors, but unfortunately these factors, and the changes that are needed to influence them, do not sit well with our Pro12 partners - better TV deals, changes to the regions to make them more marketable to fans, looking for additional income revenues (e.g. the LV cup, for which the Irish and Scottish threatened to kick us out of the league for taking part in).  You say 'get your house in order' and we are.  Very slowly!  We're starting to bring players back home.  We're introducing DCs.  We've got rid of the WRU chief and chairman and replaced the chairman with a regional man.  We've all been involved in the discussions with the TV bigwigs about bettering the commercial deal, the involvement of BT sport, etc.  Things are starting to shift.  But we still need these discussions.

The reason the Welsh Regions were threatened with expulsion from the Celtic League is despite assurances that it wouldn't interfere with Celtic League commitments, the Welsh Regions went ahead and agreed to play the Anglo Welsh cup on 5 weekends that clashed with Celtic League fixtures. When the SRU & IRFU arranged to bring in some Italian teams ahead, the Welsh Regions decided to rearrange their Anglo Welsh Commitments not to clash with the Celtic League.

Secondly, the Pro12 media negotiations are conducted by the Pro12 (whose CEO is John Feehan who is also CEO of 6Ns & B&I Lions and probably knows a thing or two about media negotiations). John Feehan actually said that BT Sport had declined to tender for the Pro12 last time around and he has been quoted about negotiating deals with Italian TV.


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Post by LordDowlais Wed 22 Apr 2015, 1:41 pm

Griff wrote:But we all do it, LD.  Even the lowly Dragons rest and rotate their 'stars'.  There is nothing wrong with it.  It is needed.  But we have to change the perception that it alters the TV product.  England still manage to market their league well for the TV companies, even though they rest and rotate.  We have to convince the TV people that the same applies here, otherwise we won't get better deals in future.

Headscratch

How can you convince somebody you are doing the exact opposite of what you are saying ? Yes England rest and rotate, the same as we do, but there is a world of difference between resting a few players and not playing players for whole chunks of the season, and if the IRFU have their way, the CC contracted Irish player will only be playing in eight league games a season, that just means they will be used in the Irish derby's. The English do not rest their players for weeks on end and keep them for Europe and international matches, the club owners would go nuts, yes they do rest players, as do we, but not on the scale that the Irish do it. But just for the record, the Irish are doing nothing wrong, but it is NOT HELPING THE LEAGUE when it comes to selling itself to the TV and media.

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Post by Sin é Wed 22 Apr 2015, 1:46 pm

Griff wrote:Sin e, I think Chunky has a point here.  Isn't it a bit more difficult to attract good TV sponsorship if the TV people and sponsors think that the teams rest their players all the time.  Even if that's the perception it becomes a bit of a stigma.  In the Aviva Prem they rest and rotate too, but the opposite is perceived - that it's better league because the top players play all the time and do not rest.  We all know how much marketing and attracting sponsors is based on perception, whether right or wrong.

The tv companies couldn't give a Poopie who is rotated. All they want is people to watch it. It really doesn't bother me if I never see Sam Warburton or whoever playing. The only thing I care about is that my team wins and I get a great kick out of when a group of our younger players do well.

As regards perceptions - that is what I keep telling you. You keep telling everyone that the league is Poopie, so you put people off it. Take a lesson from Sky who can really polish a turd.
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Post by Guest Wed 22 Apr 2015, 1:53 pm

Sin é wrote:
Griff wrote:Sin e, I think Chunky has a point here.  Isn't it a bit more difficult to attract good TV sponsorship if the TV people and sponsors think that the teams rest their players all the time.  Even if that's the perception it becomes a bit of a stigma.  In the Aviva Prem they rest and rotate too, but the opposite is perceived - that it's better league because the top players play all the time and do not rest.  We all know how much marketing and attracting sponsors is based on perception, whether right or wrong.

The tv companies couldn't give a Poopie who is rotated. All they want is people to watch it. It really doesn't bother me if I never see Sam Warburton or whoever playing. The only thing I care about is that my team wins and I get a great kick out of when a group of our younger players do well.

As regards perceptions - that is what I keep telling you. You keep telling everyone that the league is Poopie, so you put people off it. Take a lesson from Sky who can really polish a turd.

But you're a hardcore fan who, I'm guessing, attends games. You'll be in the ground when your team is televised, so largely you are excluded from that 'armchair fan' demographic. The armchair fans will want to watch the best players, surely. It's why a Welsh v English game in the Heineken cup used to attract more viewers than the largely development games that happen in the LV cup. So the companies will give a poopie about rotation if it means the armchair fan is not interested. That's just logical.

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Post by Sin é Wed 22 Apr 2015, 1:55 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Griff wrote:Sin e, I think Chunky has a point here.  Isn't it a bit more difficult to attract good TV sponsorship if the TV people and sponsors think that the teams rest their players all the time.  Even if that's the perceptioe it becomes a bit of a stigma.  In the Aviva Prem they rest and rotate too, but the opposite is perceived - that it's better league because the top players play all the time and do not rest.  We all know how much marketing and attracting sponsors is based on perception, whether right or wrong.

They will not have it Griff, they will keep telling us it is because of our in-fighting, letting players leave, and that we keep rubbishing the league all the time. I have debated over thousand posts with this exact same point, but they just cannot see it.

We won't agree with it because it is true. You keep rubishing the league, rubishing the Irish for 'rotating' etc. etc.

For the record, Ali Williams & Bakkies Botha have both played 12 games for Toulon this season (Bakkies also played 7 internations for SA). Paul O'Connell also played 12 for Munster and 7 internationals.

I don't hear any of the TV companies crying in france that Bakkies or Ali Williams are rotated.

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Post by Guest Wed 22 Apr 2015, 1:58 pm

[quote="Sin é"]
Griff wrote:
As regards perceptions - that is what I keep telling you. You keep telling everyone that the league is Poopie, so you put people off it. Take a lesson from Sky who can really polish a turd.

Who keeps telling people it's Poopie? I love it. The only people I know who say that are Chunky Norwich and Lord Dowlais. They are internet characters. You have to be able to separate views on this rather niche and largely invisible sight from reality. My Dragons pals have never even heard of 606v2.

The regions don't think it's poopie. They're all behind it (although they want more money from their governing body to compete in it so have, in the past, made tentative steps to look at other alternative revenue streams, but that's a different argument). The WRU is fully behind it. I'm not sure where you're getting this from Headscratch

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Post by Sin é Wed 22 Apr 2015, 1:59 pm

Griff wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Griff wrote:Sin e, I think Chunky has a point here.  Isn't it a bit more difficult to attract good TV sponsorship if the TV people and sponsors think that the teams rest their players all the time.  Even if that's the perception it becomes a bit of a stigma.  In the Aviva Prem they rest and rotate too, but the opposite is perceived - that it's better league because the top players play all the time and do not rest.  We all know how much marketing and attracting sponsors is based on perception, whether right or wrong.

The tv companies couldn't give a Poopie who is rotated. All they want is people to watch it. It really doesn't bother me if I never see Sam Warburton or whoever playing. The only thing I care about is that my team wins and I get a great kick out of when a group of our younger players do well.

As regards perceptions - that is what I keep telling you. You keep telling everyone that the league is Poopie, so you put people off it. Take a lesson from Sky who can really polish a turd.

But you're a hardcore fan who, I'm guessing, attends games.  You'll be in the ground when your team is televised, so largely you are excluded from that 'armchair fan' demographic.  The armchair fans will want to watch the best players, surely.  It's why a Welsh v English game in the Heineken cup used to attract more viewers than the largely development games that happen in the LV cup.  So the companies will give a poopie about rotation if it means the armchair fan is not interested.  That's just logical.  

I don't actually because I live in Dublin and Limerick is 220km away and I'm not from Limerick (or Cork). Games on Friday night just do not suit (which Munster have had a lot of).

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Post by Sin é Wed 22 Apr 2015, 2:00 pm

Griff wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Griff wrote:
As regards perceptions - that is what I keep telling you. You keep telling everyone that the league is Poopie, so you put people off it. Take a lesson from Sky who can really polish a turd.

Who keeps telling people it's Poopie?  I love it.  The only people I know who say that are Chunky  Norwich and Lord Dowlais.  They are internet characters.  You have to be able to separate views on this rather niche and largely invisible sight from reality.  My Dragons pals have never even heard of 606v2.  

The regions don't think it's poopie.  They're all behind it (although they want more money from their governing body to compete in it so have, in the past, made tentative steps to look at other alternative revenue streams, but that's a different argument).  The WRU is fully behind it.  I'm not sure where you're getting this from Headscratch

Check out Gwladrugby or Planet rugby for some views on the league and what the Welsh fans think of it. If Welsh people liked it, they would go to games.
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Post by Guest Wed 22 Apr 2015, 2:01 pm

Sin é wrote:
Griff wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Griff wrote:Sin e, I think Chunky has a point here.  Isn't it a bit more difficult to attract good TV sponsorship if the TV people and sponsors think that the teams rest their players all the time.  Even if that's the perception it becomes a bit of a stigma.  In the Aviva Prem they rest and rotate too, but the opposite is perceived - that it's better league because the top players play all the time and do not rest.  We all know how much marketing and attracting sponsors is based on perception, whether right or wrong.

The tv companies couldn't give a Poopie who is rotated. All they want is people to watch it. It really doesn't bother me if I never see Sam Warburton or whoever playing. The only thing I care about is that my team wins and I get a great kick out of when a group of our younger players do well.

As regards perceptions - that is what I keep telling you. You keep telling everyone that the league is Poopie, so you put people off it. Take a lesson from Sky who can really polish a turd.

But you're a hardcore fan who, I'm guessing, attends games.  You'll be in the ground when your team is televised, so largely you are excluded from that 'armchair fan' demographic.  The armchair fans will want to watch the best players, surely.  It's why a Welsh v English game in the Heineken cup used to attract more viewers than the largely development games that happen in the LV cup.  So the companies will give a poopie about rotation if it means the armchair fan is not interested.  That's just logical.  

I don't actually because I live in Dublin and Limerick is 220km away and I'm not from Limerick (or Cork). Games on Friday night just do not suit (which Munster have had a lot of).


Make an effort, FFS.

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Post by The Great Aukster Wed 22 Apr 2015, 2:02 pm

Griff wrote:But we all do it, LD.  Even the lowly Dragons rest and rotate their 'stars'.  There is nothing wrong with it.  It is needed.  But we have to change the perception that it alters the TV product.  England still manage to market their league well for the TV companies, even though they rest and rotate.  We have to convince the TV people that the same applies here, otherwise we won't get better deals in future.

I agree Griff.

There is no evidence produced by anyone so far that resting players has any effect on the level of sponsorship or amount of TV money forthcoming.

OTOH ScarletsSpiderman and others provided evidence in the previous thread that the Welsh teams in the LV get bigger gates than in the Pro12 and that's with no big name players on either side. That competition also got sponsorship unlike the dead duck Challenge Cup despite most teams taking it seriously and fielding very strong if not first choice sides.

Neither the gate nor the TV viewing figures were affected by the
IRFU resting players in the Munster v Leinster game.

Guys like Mark Orders doesn't care about evidence, it is only perception he is interested in. On that front there can be no doubt that constantly sniping at the Pro12 publicly (however unfounded) will hurt it's brand image. It's called cutting off your nose to spite your face.

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Post by Guest Wed 22 Apr 2015, 2:03 pm

p.s., what do you mean you're not from Limerick or Cork? Don't tell me you're disenfranchised!

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 22 Apr 2015, 2:03 pm

Griff wrote:The only people I know who say that are Chunky Norwich and Lord Dowlais

Excuse me, but can you please direct me to where I have ever said anything of the sort ? I like the Pro12, I do not have any interest in a B&I league, I want to make what we have better, that is all, not in one iota do I hate MY LEAGUE.

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Post by Guest Wed 22 Apr 2015, 2:05 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
Griff wrote:But we all do it, LD.  Even the lowly Dragons rest and rotate their 'stars'.  There is nothing wrong with it.  It is needed.  But we have to change the perception that it alters the TV product.  England still manage to market their league well for the TV companies, even though they rest and rotate.  We have to convince the TV people that the same applies here, otherwise we won't get better deals in future.

I agree Griff.

There is no evidence produced by anyone so far that resting players has any effect on the level of sponsorship or amount of TV money forthcoming.

OTOH ScarletsSpiderman and others provided evidence in the previous thread that the Welsh teams in the LV get bigger gates than in the Pro12 and that's with no big name players on either side. That competition also got sponsorship unlike the dead duck Challenge Cup despite most teams taking it seriously and fielding very strong if not first choice sides.

Neither the gate nor the TV viewing figures were affected by the
IRFU resting players in the Munster v Leinster game.

Guys like Mark Orders doesn't care about evidence, it is only perception he is interested in. On that front there can be no doubt that constantly sniping at the Pro12 publicly (however unfounded) will hurt it's brand image. It's called cutting off your nose to spite your face.

See bold above. Definitely agree, but who snipes at the Pro12 publicly? On here? In the media? The only media sniping I've heard recently is from Dawson saying the welsh and Scottish need to pull their socks up! But that is not really sniping. Who has been sniping publicly?

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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Wed 22 Apr 2015, 2:12 pm

Griff wrote:p.s., what do you mean you're not from Limerick or Cork?  Don't tell me you're disenfranchised!
There are actually 4 other Counties in Munster (AKA De reel six counties)

He's from the same one as Denis Leamy & Alan Quinlan

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 22 Apr 2015, 2:12 pm

Sin é wrote:You keep rubishing the league

Ok, this is getting boring now, can you please show me where I have rubbished the league ?

All I have said on this whole debate is that WE ARE ALL TO BLAME for the leagues failings when it comes to getting more money from the media, all of us, Welsh, Irish, Scott's, Italians, it is down to all of us, but the Irish on here WILL NOT EXCEPT any responsibility for their part, they will only point out what us Welsh have done wrong, and accuse us of wanting to jump into bed with the English, and that is the most hypocritical thing I have ever heard on here, they accuse us of wanting to jump into bed with the English, yet they prioritise the scraps from the table that they throw them in Europe like a scolded dog, and roll out the red carpet for the competition that they control. they are doing what they are accusing us of doing, by prioritising Europe over the league.

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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Wed 22 Apr 2015, 2:14 pm

LordDowlais wrote:

All I have said on this whole debate is that WE ARE ALL TO BLAME for the leagues failings when it comes to getting more money from the media, all of us, Welsh, Irish, Scott's, Italians, it is down to all of us, but the Irish on here WILL NOT EXCEPT any responsibility for their part, they will only point out what us Welsh have done wrong,
Why have you never said this before? Shocked

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