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Pro12 Value - The Facts (continued)

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No 7&1/2
madmaccas
wolfball
GoodinTightSpaces
the-goon
Rory_Gallagher
SecretFly
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Pot Hale
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Tattie Scones RRN
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The Great Aukster
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The Saint
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Post by George Carlin Wed 22 Apr - 20:38

First topic message reminder :

A continuation of Chunky Norwich's original thread:
https://www.606v2.com/t58514-pro12-value-the-facts
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Post by Sin é Fri 24 Apr - 0:49

Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Just wondering why a reduction in teams would help. Would have thought it would generate less interest with less teams involved that's all, see the point of reduction in travel though.

The quality of the Italian teams is a sticking point in getting people to buy into the league in my opinion.

You might think that 5k people attending a game is better than none, but the product overall is weakened having the Italian teams in it in my opinion.

Well, I for one am looking forward to Munster v Treviso this weekend with the hope that Munster can score 4+ tries and help us achieve a home semi.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 24 Apr - 0:49

Sin é wrote:

Well, I for one am looking forward to Munster v Treviso this weekend with the hope that Munster can score 4+ tries and help us achieve a home semi.


I have no doubts you are.

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Post by SecretFly Fri 24 Apr - 1:03

Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:

What would kicking the Italians out of your league achieve?

Bizarre turn of questioning.

Erm, No games in test periods and less costs is my immediate thought.

In other words f**k the Italians?

But care about everyone else and their survival.....

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Post by Pot Hale Fri 24 Apr - 1:07

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:

As a matter of interest, why is Sunday a bad day in Wales?

Sunday afternoon is more of a family time. I could handle 1 game once in a while on a Sunday, but this season has taken the p1ss. The TV deal needs to be changed pronto. All days need to be shared out between all nations.

My guess is Ulster won't allow this, seeing as they run the league.

Sunday afternoon is a family time in Ireland as well when it would be traditional (in ROI anyway) for the whole family to head off to a family friendly GAA match. Are Regional games not family friendly? Munster do family packs of 2 kids and 2 children for 40 euro as well as having a whole play area for kids. Leinster have something similar.

Bizarre comment about Ulster. They are just lucky that they are the only Province that has to contend for airtime on BBCNI and Friday nights suit their broadcasting schedule.

Lucky eh. Lucky old Ulster.

I'm sure there are family deals for the regions. Getting the punters in is another thing entirely.

Do you not agree that when the next tv deal is up for grabs, that the fixture days should be shared out equally? Not dependent on which country only has 1 team etc?

Sure they should be shared out equally. But what does equal mean for each of the teams involved? One team might want/prefer Fridays, other Saturdays, other Sundays. Are you saying that doesn't matter, and they just get an allotment of all three no matter what? There should be no other criteria applied?
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Post by ME-109 Fri 24 Apr - 1:21

Chunky = demented mole...just stop arguing with him.

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Post by Irish Londoner Fri 24 Apr - 1:25

I presume that the fixtures are largely dictated by the TV companies - e.g. BBCNI like a Friday night so Ulster play a lot on Friday nights , SKY want a Saturday afternoon, S4C want a certain slot etc. just as BT Sport and SKY dictate when Aviva rugby and Premier League football games are on - the rest would be up to the teams to decide.
If we want the TV money we dance to the TV tune like everyone else does - RL on SKY Thursday to Sunday, yes sir, when would you like the games to kick off?

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Post by LordDowlais Fri 24 Apr - 1:37

ME-109 wrote:Chunky = demented mole...just stop arguing with him.

Insults,yep thats the way ME-109 you show em. picard

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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Fri 24 Apr - 1:43

LordDowlais wrote:

I will say this ONE LAST TIME.
Ah if only.

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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Fri 24 Apr - 1:47

LordDowlais wrote:
ME-109 wrote:Chunky = demented mole...just stop arguing with him.

Insults,yep thats the way ME-109 you show em. picard

Demented Mole is one of the soundest guys I know. http://dementedmole.com/

I think Chucky would be seriously flattered. The guy is one of the sharpest rugby brains out there.

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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Fri 24 Apr - 1:48

This thread has taken some queer turns. You are all "so weird"

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Post by ME-109 Fri 24 Apr - 1:50

Life is weird

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Post by ME-109 Fri 24 Apr - 1:50

This is a parallel universe

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Post by Pot Hale Fri 24 Apr - 4:07

This thread is now officially redundant due to a lack of coherence.
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Post by Guest Fri 24 Apr - 4:10

Yes. Time to lock it. I'll try to come up with a positive one instead. Not sure how long that'll last mind.

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Post by The Great Aukster Fri 24 Apr - 9:54

madmaccas wrote:When will this WUM thread end?

Who cares which league is better?! Let's just agree that they all suck.

Just please stop feeding the trolls.

Hopefully never!

Such pure escapist fantasy should be filmed and sold as a soap - honestly there are addicts out there who would buy the boxed set. It is the rugby equivalent of tamagotchi - you know it is nonsense but you have to keep feeding the trolls or else they'll die. Yes a blinking lcd character is impossible to love, but if you're given the job of keeping it alive then that is the goal and that appeals to everyone's sense of duty.

I applaud LD for his stoicism like Edison developing the light bulb. If you keep at something long enough then eventually a breakthrough will come. It took Edison 10,000 goes so I expect LD has at least another 9000 to go yet, so this thread has quite a few incarnations to come. The slight caveat is that Edison learned from each of his experiments to try something different and the distinct lack of mutation in opinion so far could end up far longer than that. This could actually be the definitive case study for generations to come on bloody mindedness.

So don't stop the feeding frenzy, records can be set - Lord Dowlais should really be looking for sponsorship.
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Post by LordDowlais Fri 24 Apr - 17:56

The Great Aukster wrote:So don't stop the feeding frenzy, records can be set - Lord Dowlais should really be looking for sponsorship.

Laugh

Ok, I get the sarcasm.

But I will keep on until the Irish on here take part of the responsability for our leagues failings. Anyway, lets look at the crud you lot have been feeding us on here, without any changes:-

Irish euphemisms

1. We never boo the kickers
2. We never complain about referees
3. Our players always respect the referee
4. Our players never cheat
5. We are always fair in our approach when reviewing a game
6. We never big up our own teams or players
7. The newest one on the list. It is not our fault for anything wrong in the Pro12

There you go the seven deadly sins of being an Irish rugby supporter. Smile

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Post by SecretFly Fri 24 Apr - 19:25

LordDowlais wrote:

1. We never boo the kickers
2. We never complain about referees
3. Our players always respect the referee
4. Our players never cheat
5. We are always fair in our approach when reviewing a game
6. We never big up our own teams or players
7. The newest one on the list. It is not our fault for anything wrong in the Pro12

There you go the seven deadly sins of being an Irish rugby supporter. Smile

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You have to admit though, Lord.................. if you remove the 'Never' and 'Always' on those 7 and replace them with 'Seldom' and 'Usually' you'd have it pretty damn close to accurate.
There is more than a grain of truth to the dead Seven there and I think that actually annoys the observers Wink

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Post by LordDowlais Fri 24 Apr - 19:35

SecretFly wrote:There is more than a grain of truth to the dead Seven there and I think that actually annoys the observers

Oh the joys it must be to be Irish SF, I am so envious of you lot. The last time I was in Ireland I was looking everywhere for angels in white tunics playing the harp, and listening  out all the time for the sound of a sweet choir in the distance, but I could not find anything of the sort, I was also very disappointed that the streets were not paved with gold, and the pubs were not serving ambrosia, oh well, you lot will have to just keep telling me about it instead. Hug


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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Fri 24 Apr - 19:44

You'd have to wonder what is floating round in yer man lord's head.

Anyway here is some interesting reading for himself and chucky.

http://www.the42.ie/joe-schmidt-david-nucifora-player-management-irfu-2065855-Apr2015/?

makes specific reference to scarlets v connacht

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Post by SecretFly Fri 24 Apr - 19:45

No keep to the rugby...that's best, Lord. The Deadly Seven.

The Seven keep being an issue with you. Now, the proverbial Alien coming upon this thread might be of the opinion that you're outlining Hypocrisy of the Highest order by yonder Irish.

But had the Alien then used his big brain to scan through some 15 to 20 years of footage from the archives at high speed, then I presume the Alien would come to the conclusion that the Seven Deadly aren't so far off the mark. Wink

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 24 Apr - 19:53

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:You'd have to wonder what is floating round in yer man lord's head.

Anyway here is some interesting reading for himself and chucky.

http://www.the42.ie/joe-schmidt-david-nucifora-player-management-irfu-2065855-Apr2015/?

makes specific reference to scarlets v connacht

The more internal squabbling in Ireland the better as far as I'm concerned.

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Post by asoreleftshoulder Fri 24 Apr - 19:55

LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:There is more than a grain of truth to the dead Seven there and I think that actually annoys the observers

Oh the joys it must be to be Irish SF, I am so envious of you lot. The last time I was in Ireland I was looking everywhere for angles in white tunics playing the harp, and listening  out all the time for the sound of a sweet choir in the distance, but I could not find anything of the sort, I was also very disappointed that the streets were not paved with gold, and the pubs were not serving ambrosia, oh well, you lot will have to just keep telling me about it instead. Hug

Eh,that's Guinness the drink of the Gods.

As for angles we have all sorts from 1 to 359 degrees.

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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Fri 24 Apr - 19:57

You read that and all you get is "internal squabbling in Ireland"? Shocked

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 24 Apr - 19:58

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:You read that and all you get is "internal squabbling in Ireland"? Shocked

That's the important thing I take from it.

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Post by SecretFly Fri 24 Apr - 20:00

O'Connor burning his bridges.

Is he yet another guy who didn't ask questions when taking on a job or agreeing to a contract????


Where are all these people getting educated???  In non-rugby playing schools?  

How often are we meant to believe these people turn up, have the outline of what is expected from them set before them, afforded the time to make queries or recommend changes to the nature of their employment, and still walk away after the handshake and complain about everything they're expected to do?

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Post by SecretFly Fri 24 Apr - 20:03

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:You read that and all you get is "internal squabbling in Ireland"? Shocked

That's the important thing I take from it.

I'd be worried then, Chunky. Because squabbling isn't what it shows to me. It shows the big boys who organise things are more than happy....and happy to say it publically in the face of some moans from one coach, O'Connor.

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Post by Guest Fri 24 Apr - 20:31

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:You'd have to wonder what is floating round in yer man lord's head.

Anyway here is some interesting reading for himself and chucky.

http://www.the42.ie/joe-schmidt-david-nucifora-player-management-irfu-2065855-Apr2015/?

makes specific reference to scarlets v connacht

The player rest/max games hasn't changed recently has it? Sounds more like a coach under pressure looking to blame something other than himself and his coaching team for the downturn in Leinster's performance. Cheika and Schmidt seemed to do OK with it Very Happy

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Post by Pot Hale Fri 24 Apr - 21:35

The response from Schmidt and Nucifora is interesting in that it provides some specifics around what they measure in the Player Management System - Schmidt says a limit of 8 league games is wide of the mark, but then is quoted as saying:

"“If you add it all together, if someone plays nine European games, eight Pro12 games and ten Test matches, you are at 27 games. So, it may be eight for one player and it may be twelve for someone who only played, say, two EPCR games because they were injured.”

So is the clock set on each top player at 27 games x 80 minutes for each season? And does the provincial coach have full control over any time not used in Internationals if, for example, a player was injured for most of the Six Nations, or on the bench and not used, but available for the rest of the time?

Thus if Sean Cronin is only making sub appearances for approx 30 minutes of every test this season, (let's say 7 games so far), then does he have 7 x 50 minutes re-assigned to featuring in the league/cup - that's an extra four full games in the league. Or are Matt O'Connor and other provincial coaches, only being given a fixed allotment from total playing time to use for league/cup matches? In addition to that, that doesn't stop Schmidt ringing up coaches (as per Connacht example) and asking that a player not play anyway.
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Post by Pot Hale Fri 24 Apr - 21:44

LordDowlais wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:So don't stop the feeding frenzy, records can be set - Lord Dowlais should really be looking for sponsorship.

Laugh

Ok, I get the sarcasm.

But I will keep on until the Irish on here take part of the responsability for our leagues failings. Anyway, lets look at the crud you lot have been feeding us on here, without any changes:-

Irish euphemisms

1. We never boo the kickers
2. We never complain about referees
3. Our players always respect the referee
4. Our players never cheat
5. We are always fair in our approach when reviewing a game
6. We never big up our own teams or players
7. The newest one on the list. It is not our fault for anything wrong in the Pro12

There you go the seven deadly sins of being an Irish rugby supporter. Smile

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Euphemisms??

Definition of euphemism is a usually a softer or more vague word or expression used instead of a word that might seem too harsh or blunt when referring to something unpleasant or embarrassing.

Leaving that aside, your argument is that Irish sides have devalued the Pro12 by not playing their top players all the time in the league - is that correct?


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Post by Sin é Fri 24 Apr - 21:51

Griff wrote:Yes. Time to lock it. I'll try to come up with a positive one instead. Not sure how long that'll last mind.

I wouldn't bother. I made a positive suggestion as to what could be done to raise the profile of the PRO12 in Wales and the only response I got back is that we have done this (when you haven't).
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Post by Chunky Norwich Sat 25 Apr - 1:48

So if sky sports can switch their Saturday night slot, like they have tonight for Ulster v Leinster - can s4c?

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Post by asoreleftshoulder Sat 25 Apr - 2:22

Chunky Norwich wrote:So if sky sports can switch their Saturday night slot, like they have tonight for Ulster v Leinster - can s4c?
Why don't you ask them?

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Post by Sin é Sat 25 Apr - 2:36

Chunky Norwich wrote:So if sky sports can switch their Saturday night slot, like they have tonight for Ulster v Leinster - can s4c?

Looks like Sky are obliging the Welsh Regions by allowing them have Judgement Day on a Saturday afternoon.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Sat 25 Apr - 2:44

Sin é wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:So if sky sports can switch their Saturday night slot, like they have tonight for Ulster v Leinster - can s4c?

Looks like Sky are obliging the Welsh Regions by allowing them have Judgement Day on a Saturday afternoon.


Ah that's right it's all to man sausage this weekend to fit judgement day n.

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Post by Pot Hale Sat 25 Apr - 12:25

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:So if sky sports can switch their Saturday night slot, like they have tonight for Ulster v Leinster - can s4c?

Looks like Sky are obliging the Welsh Regions by allowing them have Judgement Day on a Saturday afternoon.


Ah that's right it's all to man sausage this weekend to fit judgement day n.

Much simpler than that. Why have pay=per-view Sky, when you can have free-to-air Slanel 4 Cymru and BBC Wales for Judgement Day 3 - much more attractive to punters. Kudos to WRU for sorting that and the crowds they've attracted. Sky have covered Friday evening matches previously in the season and on Sunday - it's not a fixed Sat night slot.
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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 30 Apr - 20:59

From the Joint Supporters group meeting

Pro12 Value - The Facts (continued) - Page 5 CD1bFAWWMAETkeP

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Post by Notch Thu 30 Apr - 21:07

Chunky Norwich wrote:From the Joint Supporters group meeting

Pro12 Value - The Facts (continued) - Page 5 CD1bFAWWMAETkeP

Thats all encouraging, if better broadcasting deals can be secured (i.e. somewhere with more cash than S4C) then the Sunday games issue can be dealt with too.
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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 30 Apr - 21:09

Hopefully.

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Post by Sin é Thu 30 Apr - 21:18

The best thing for the Wales situation would be to just put it on pay TV - then they would have to start going to games.
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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 30 Apr - 21:22

Sin é wrote:The best thing for the Wales situation would be to just put it on pay TV - then they would have to start going to games.

100% agree.

For all of the league, not just Wales.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 30 Apr - 21:26

Sin é wrote:then they would have to start going to games.

Again, more ignorance, look please ask before you make hard comments like that.

Putting the games on pay to view TV will not make people go to the game instead, most of the people in Wales who support rugby already have other rugby commitments, whether that be playing, supporting, helping out, taking and watching their kids, it all costs money. Most people do not have the extra time or extra money to do both, ok, you might get one or two who would go, but it would more than likely be cheaper for the people to pay for Sky Sports or BT Sport than pay for travel, tickets, refreshments at the game.

If you ask me, PPV games or subscription televised games would only reduce the support for the regions. OK

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Post by Sin é Thu 30 Apr - 21:34

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:The best thing for the Wales situation would be to just put it on pay TV - then they would have to start going to games.

100% agree.

For all of the league, not just Wales.

I'd imagine the Pro12 sponsors, Guinness, wouldn't be happy with the lack of exposure if solely on pay tv in Ireland (though they would get full value from the game attendances Wink ). They must be particularly pleased with Thomond Park where they sponsored the refurbishment of the bar recently.



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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 30 Apr - 21:35

I'm all for a Pay TV pro12. Attendances would probably rise a tad in Wales, but the main thing would be a professionally organised league that would come out of it and perhaps a greater tv deal.

None of your BBCNI and s4c dictating fixtures. Simple streamlined 1 or 2 games a week on the same channel.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 30 Apr - 21:36

Sin é wrote:

I'd imagine the Pro12 sponsors, Guinness, wouldn't be happy with the lack of exposure if solely on pay tv in Ireland (though they would get full value from the game attendances Wink  ). They must be particularly pleased with Thomond Park where they sponsored the refurbishment of the bar recently.


With the amount they're supposedly paying, then can shut the hell up.

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Post by Sin é Thu 30 Apr - 21:45

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:

I'd imagine the Pro12 sponsors, Guinness, wouldn't be happy with the lack of exposure if solely on pay tv in Ireland (though they would get full value from the game attendances Wink  ). They must be particularly pleased with Thomond Park where they sponsored the refurbishment of the bar recently.


With the amount they're supposedly paying, then can shut the hell up.

Ah, but Chunky, tv stations won't be interested in televising PRO12 games unless the league is sponsored by someone who has deep pockets for big advertising campaigns (i.e., someone like Guinness).
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Post by LordDowlais Thu 30 Apr - 21:46

Overall, pay to view rugby in Wales would reduce the support the regions have, I do not think people realise just how much it would cost a club to buy Sky Sports or BT Sports. It is a hell of a lot more than what you pay at home, about 50-100 times as much, at the moment, here in Wales, the fact that the regions are always on tele, it keeps them in the public eye. Do not under estimate the amount of people who watch the regions on tele after they have spent the day with their local clubs. At the moment Sky Sports is about £20 a month, that is STILL cheaper than £20 a week for your tickets, £5-15 travel costs, £5-15 pounds for refreshments at the game, if I were on a budget, I know what I would be paying for, also, if I was struggling, I would not watch it at all if it was on PPV tele.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Thu 30 Apr - 21:49

The Pro12 has grown a huge amount in the last 10 years (it did suffer a slight set back last year but this year has been much improved) but with the Regions now looking settled, the league can push on to greater things.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 30 Apr - 21:50

Sin é wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:

I'd imagine the Pro12 sponsors, Guinness, wouldn't be happy with the lack of exposure if solely on pay tv in Ireland (though they would get full value from the game attendances Wink  ). They must be particularly pleased with Thomond Park where they sponsored the refurbishment of the bar recently.


With the amount they're supposedly paying, then can shut the hell up.

Ah, but Chunky, tv stations won't be interested in televising PRO12 games unless the league is sponsored by someone who has deep pockets for big advertising campaigns (i.e., someone like Guinness).

I agree to an extent, and it's a mute point really because the way the league is going nobody is going to put more money to watch or sponsor it.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Thu 30 Apr - 21:57

The FIR has sold 74% of Zebre to a group of private entrepreneurs. The remaining share will be sold off during the year.

Does this explain how they were able to get Luke Burgess and Mulianina?

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Post by Irish Londoner Thu 30 Apr - 22:00

But the Pro12 is on Pay TV (unless you've got a hooky Sky card Wink ) whether making it entirely on Pay TV would increase the revenue is a moot point when combined with the loss of access to live rugby that having it on terrestrial TV brings.

Chunks the simple answer is that the PRO12 can't get the same amount of sponsorship, TV money, etc. as the Avvia or TOP14 is nothing to do with the quality of rugby on show and everything to do with the viewer base - as was freqently said in the debates on the revised Euro Competitions it's all about chimmney pots and the fact is that there are more chimmney pots in London than in Ireland,Scotland and Wales combined.

The PRO12 gets less money because it's a niche product and a minority interest -however it gets more money than other sports  because its a bigger minority interest - same rules apply in England PRL have done a good deal with BT (although I'm still of the opinion that BT wanted rugby more as a way of hacking off SKY than for viewing figures) but it's not noticeably better than the deal the Rugby League have with SKY, and of course all other sports are dwarfed by Premier League football - including all the other football leagues outside it.

Even if Irish teams played full strength teams until the players broke down, if Wales got everyone home on central contracts and played them, Scotland arose like a phoenix from the ashes and the Italians got seriously competitive there are still only a finite number of people who will watch the games, either on TV or in the ground and IMHO rugby has already reached that point in the Celtic nations.

The only way the PRO12 teams could command better TV income would be the formation of a B & I league and there's no way the English clubs (quite rightly in their interests) would allow it.

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