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Gloucester face hearing for fielding ineligible player

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Post by PenfroPete Fri 24 Apr 2015, 1:59 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/32446580

Premiership club Gloucester are to face a Rugby Football Union hearing for fielding an unregistered player.

The Cherry and Whites selected Mariano Galarza to face Sale Sharks in a league match on 29 March, but the Argentine "did not hold effective registration".

Gloucester confirmed the signing of lock Galarza, 28, in February 2014.

London Welsh were deducted five points and fined £15,000 for fielding an ineligible player, Tyson Keats, in a Premiership fixture in 2013.


Analysis: BBC Radio 5 live reporter Chris Jones
"Galarza returned from long-term injury against Sale, but an administrative oversight meant he wasn't properly registered as a Gloucester player. I understand the club admitted the breach and have been honest and open throughout the process. Galarza was subsequently correctly registered for the European Challenge Cup semi-final win over Exeter Chiefs.

"While London Welsh were deducted five points in 2013 for fielding an ineligible player, I am told a closer precedent is when Oliver Frost played for Worcester against Saracens in the LV= Cup in 2012. Worcester were deducted one point for the offence, and Gloucester may be handed a similar punishment, which wouldn't effect their league position."
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Post by LondonTiger Fri 24 Apr 2015, 3:12 pm

Correction, London Welsh fielded their ineligible player in 6 fixtures, not one.

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Post by HongKongCherry Fri 24 Apr 2015, 3:30 pm

So in the 8 months it took for him to make his debut we failed to register him properly!

Doh
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Post by LondonTiger Fri 24 Apr 2015, 3:47 pm

HongKongCherry wrote:So in the 8 months it took for him to make his debut we failed to register him properly!

Doh

I am guessing that at first he was not registered to limit any impact on salary cap - then someone forgot.

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Post by TightHEAD Fri 24 Apr 2015, 4:17 pm

Its a sad state of affairs that they you could deduct 38pts from a team in 9th place at this stage of the season and I'm 100% confident they wouldn't finish bottom. (not meant as a dig at Glaws more at London 'hopelessly' Welsh btw) Very Happy
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Post by lostinwales Mon 27 Apr 2015, 11:07 pm

5k fine and a suspended 2 point deduction, based on the fact that it was an administrative mistake and not done to gain an advantage.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/32491030

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Post by doctor_grey Tue 28 Apr 2015, 2:15 am

lostinwales wrote:5k fine and a suspended 2 point deduction, based on the fact that it was an administrative mistake and not done to gain an advantage.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/32491030
Kind of a slap on the wrist.  I am sure the error was an honest one, but rules is rules.  Kind of like saying "It was an error to be driving 80 miles per hour in a 60 miles per hour zone".  In that scenario, we get penalised whether it was an error or not.  And everyone is just a bit more careful in the future.

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Post by HongKongCherry Tue 28 Apr 2015, 8:03 am

I think it helped that Glaws brought this to the attention of the authorities and given how woeful we were against Sale, Galarza made no impact on the final result!
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Post by Jimpy Tue 28 Apr 2015, 8:19 am

I'd be much happier if Glaws got a telling off and learnt their lesson and Bath and Saracens had the book chucked at them for breaching the salary cap.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 28 Apr 2015, 8:27 am

Jimpy wrote:Bath and Saracens had the book chucked at them for breaching the salary cap.

That will never happen.

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Post by beshocked Tue 28 Apr 2015, 9:58 am

Of course you would Jimpy. You want to see Bath and Saracens punished. Not for the good of the game but because they look to be ahead of Tigers these days.

Every club can improve- look closer to home to see what yours can do.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 28 Apr 2015, 10:07 am

Glass houses Jimpy.

Tigers are renowned for finding ways around the cap. It's quite ironic that when other teams test the bounderies, you're one of the first to complain.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 28 Apr 2015, 10:29 am

Presumably we all want to see everyone keep to the salary cap?

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 28 Apr 2015, 10:47 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Presumably we all want to see everyone keep to the salary cap?

Yes, and I want the fines levied to be public knowledge. For genuine honesty and openness that could include the historic fines - including Leicester in the 2010/11 season.

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Post by Jimpy Tue 28 Apr 2015, 11:13 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Glass houses Jimpy.

Tigers are renowned for finding ways around the cap. It's quite ironic that when other teams test the bounderies, you're one of the first to complain.

Talking of ironic, you've just redefined it picard

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Post by Jimpy Tue 28 Apr 2015, 11:15 am

beshocked wrote:Of course you would Jimpy. You want to see Bath and Saracens punished. Not for the good of the game but because they look to be ahead of Tigers these days.

Every club can improve- look closer to home to see what yours can do.

And the two teams under investigation for breaching the cap are? Tigers?

I'm sure Tigers are doing what they can to improve, and to stay within the rules.

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Post by Jimpy Tue 28 Apr 2015, 11:16 am

Glaws got a £5000 fine and a two point suspended deduction...

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Post by SecretFly Tue 28 Apr 2015, 11:25 am

I wish you guys would put up Club affiliations so that an outsider might follow the juicy banter a little closer. Wink

So Jimpy seems to have landed a punch on Pooly. I'm wondering what it is. Is Pooly a Quins man?

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 28 Apr 2015, 11:27 am

No SecretFly, he doesn't like the NE because he was married to a Geordie girl and she cheated on him. Something along those lines anyway.

I tend to just ignore him and he goes away, you'll never get a reasonable debate from him.

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Post by Jimpy Tue 28 Apr 2015, 11:42 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:No SecretFly, he doesn't like the NE because he was married to a Geordie girl and she cheated on him. Something along those lines anyway.

I tend to just ignore him and he goes away, you'll never get a reasonable debate from him.

No, I think you'll find I'm perfectly capable of rational debate - as are you when your equally obvious anti-Tigers stance is kept in check.

But, still, pot, kettle and all that. Gloucester face hearing for fielding ineligible player 1347041234

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 28 Apr 2015, 11:48 am

As an outsider, looking at the English salary cap with a lot of worry, as you could end up taking more of our best players, to me it is obvious that Saracens are breaching it, it is of no coincidence at all that the only team to beat a French side in the CC and get to a semi final is the only side outside of France spending as much money as them.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 28 Apr 2015, 11:54 am

Why is it obvious?

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 28 Apr 2015, 12:09 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is it obvious?

because the only way you are going to compete with the big spending French is if you do the same, Sarries beat RM and then should really have beaten Claremont, for me the only team that can compete with the French sides that comes from outside of France is Saracens and it is because they are playing them at their own game. ££££££££££££.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 28 Apr 2015, 12:12 pm

Saracens have certainly splashed the cash in the past but their team is increasingly full of young home developed talent. It isn't the 'galacticos' team it used to be.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 28 Apr 2015, 12:15 pm

What is the salary cap in England ?

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Post by thebandwagonsociety Tue 28 Apr 2015, 12:15 pm

It might be that Saracens are able to sign top quality players on salary cap friendly contracts. They have a quality squad.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 28 Apr 2015, 12:34 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is it obvious?

because the only way you are going to compete with the big spending French is if you do the same, Sarries beat RM and then should really have beaten Claremont, for me the only team that can compete with the French sides that comes from outside of France is Saracens and it is because they are playing them at their own game. ££££££££££££.

Quite a large leap.

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Post by InjuredYetAgain Tue 28 Apr 2015, 10:11 pm

HongKongCherry wrote:I think it helped that Glaws brought this to the attention of the authorities and given how woeful we were against Sale, Galarza made no impact on the final result!
If that is the case, your punishment should be extended to force him to play the full 80 minutes in Friday's final. <wish there was an emoticon for clutching at straws>

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Post by TJ Tue 28 Apr 2015, 10:17 pm

No 7&amp;1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is it obvious?

because the only way you are going to compete with the big spending French is if you do the same, Sarries beat RM and then should really have beaten Claremont, for me the only team that can compete with the French sides that comes from outside of France is Saracens and it is because they are playing them at their own game. ££££££££££££.

Quite a large leap.

intersting that recently the irish have been able to match the french despite playing budgets less than the aP

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Post by InjuredYetAgain Tue 28 Apr 2015, 10:25 pm

I suspect that that is because your top Irish players (Heaslip, O'Connell etc) will not command the "premium" price that, say, some SH players have. They will be well paid but I would imagine that, if you bring a player half way round the world, you are going to have to make it very attractive for him to upsticks, leave his family behind etc. Taking it a step further, a SH import may argue for a higher base salary as he can't just jump in a car to see his parents

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 29 Apr 2015, 8:27 am

TJ wrote:intersting that recently the irish have been able to match the french despite playing budgets less than the aP

Are you for real ? Look I do not want to hi-jack this thread, but to say that the Irish budgets are less than the English is wrong, in fact, the Irish provinces work with a higher budget than more than 90% of the English sides, you could say 100% if you believed that all the English sides were playing by the rules. That is why they can compete with the French.

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Post by lostinwales Wed 29 Apr 2015, 10:22 am

LordDowlais wrote:
TJ wrote:intersting that recently the irish have been able to match the french despite playing budgets less than the aP

Are you for real ? Look I do not want to hi-jack this thread, but to say that the Irish budgets are less than the English is wrong, in fact, the Irish provinces work with a higher budget than more than 90% of the English sides, you could say 100% if you believed that all the English sides were playing by the rules. That is why they can compete with the French.

Much as though it goes against the grain to agree with LD I do. 

This has been discussed in depth in other threads, and the easiest thing to say is that the funding model for the Irish regions is very different to what happens in the AP (or Wales). It obviously works for them, and they do generally have a good balance of home grown vs bought in talent, but they are not at a financial disadvantage vs AP teams

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 29 Apr 2015, 10:25 am

What Johnny Sexton is getting payed next season to play for Leinster will be about a quarter of the whole budget the regions get to work with. Also,lets not forget about the tax exemption for the players.

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Post by SecretFly Wed 29 Apr 2015, 10:57 am

lostinwales wrote:

This has been discussed in depth in other threads, and the easiest thing to say is that the funding model for the Irish regions is very different to what happens in the AP (or Wales). It obviously works for them, and they do generally have a good balance of home grown vs bought in talent, but they are not at a financial disadvantage vs AP teams  

Nicely worded. Wink  Now considering there are only 4 Provincial sides, (and only three of them get the bigger funding) that would mean that the inverse is also true.  The top 4 or 5 AP sides are not at a financial disadvantage to Irish Pro12 teams.  

And yet that myth gets thrown around easily enough across the water by people who own one or two of the AP sides that are still being queried on cap-breaking big time.  The irony of it all.  

A while back Quins (the poster) tried to suggest that because AP sides have much bigger squads than Leinster, therefore even if their salary funding was similar, it would mean less for each player as it would have to spread further.  But of course I did the homework and found out the top AP sides do Not have much bigger squads than Leinster; indeed some of them have smaller squads.  AND of course they also have their Sexton-like player that they can pay whatever they like for outside the capping restraints.

Yes, Irish sides do it their way....and do what is needed and what they can afford to do to survive on our terms.  That's the struggle everyone faces and there'll be no apologies to our other Pro12 partners for doing so - as they wouldn't and won't in the future be apologising to us if they go on and bypass us in funding terms or success terms.

But there is Certainly more money floating around the top of the AP league in terms of sponsorship and Broadcasting rights than exists for Irish Provinces from Pro12!  

And that money floating around the AP is going somewhere.... it's settling somewhere.  And AP sides are availing of it - whether that's increasing their scientific expertise or resources, getting the best assistance from sporting codes outside rugby to improve player skills etc, etc.  AP teams are using much more money than Irish Provinces can get their hands on to produce this relatively new, breathlessness, stamina-sapping rugby they tend to play now both in League and at International Level.  There is no way Irish Provincial or International rugby is running on the same cost basis as English League and International rugby.  No way.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 29 Apr 2015, 11:06 am

SecretFly wrote:There is no way Irish Provincial or International rugby is running on the same cost basis as English League and International rugby. No way.

CORRECT.

But that is only because you have quarter the amount of sides. What I was alluding to was, that individually the provinces of Ireland work with the highest budgets of the teams outside of France, not including the rule breakers in England.

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Post by SecretFly Wed 29 Apr 2015, 12:51 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:There is no way Irish Provincial or International rugby is running on the same cost basis as English League and International rugby.  No way.

CORRECT.

But that is only because you have quarter the amount of sides. What I was alluding to was, that individually the provinces of Ireland work with the highest budgets of the  teams outside of France, not including the rule breakers in England.

We have four sides.  Let's ask what we operate on when we isolate the four habitually top AP sides ...and the four habitually top Top14 sides...  I say we are well down on monetary competitiveness.  We are not in the same league Lord.  We're just not.  

Declared salary caps has at this point in time (considering another thread that has appeared) become an English joke, that they're now trying to cover up and sweep under the carpet.  I'm too old, Lord.  I'm not a fool, and I doubt that you are.  These caps have been toyed with for years now (at the top).  Creative accounting has done its work.  

I'll deal with the reality of the distinction between top AP/Top14 sides and Irish Provinces.  And I'll say again - we're not in their league.

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Post by LondonTiger Wed 29 Apr 2015, 12:53 pm

The top Irish payers get paid more than the top English.

However the middle ranking English get paid more than the middle ranking Irish.

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Post by SecretFly Wed 29 Apr 2015, 1:04 pm

LondonTiger wrote:The top Irish payers get paid more than the top English.

However the middle ranking English get paid more than the middle ranking Irish.

This is Club Rugby we're talking. Top Irish players aren't so diluted through Irish Provinces/clubs as their English colleagues often can be. We're talking finances and salaries of top Provincial sides when compared to top AP and top Top14 sides.

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Post by LondonTiger Wed 29 Apr 2015, 1:15 pm

Depending on just how far over those guilty of being over are, the top English clubs and Irish provinces are in the same ball park when you compare lfl player salaries.

both a decent way ahead of Welsh and Scots, but a long way behind French.

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