The v2 Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

+18
Bathman_in_London
niwatts
nathan
LondonTiger
SecretFly
funnyExiledScot
TightHEAD
beshocked
whocares
No 7&1/2
Lowlandbrit
Nematode
lostinwales
Chunky Norwich
George Carlin
doctor_grey
Pot Hale
Rugby Fan
22 posters

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by Rugby Fan Mon 27 Apr 2015, 12:57 am

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/32476299

On Monday they will become the first sports club to launch a retail bond listed on the London Stock Exchange, which is expected to raise up to £35m. That means Wasps are set to pass French giants Toulouse in terms of revenue. "We expect to be in that position either at end of this season or next season," said Wasps' David Armstrong.

The big rise in revenue is a result of Wasps, who beat Exeter on Sunday to consolidate sixth place in the Premiership, buying the Ricoh Arena and moving from High Wycombe to play in the Midlands. Speaking to BBC Radio 5 live, the Wasps chief executive added: "We were previously the second-lowest revenue-generating club in Premiership rugby. We are now the second highest in Europe.

Rugby Fan
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 7006
Join date : 2012-09-14

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by Pot Hale Mon 27 Apr 2015, 1:17 am

Derek Richardson is one smart cookie.
Pot Hale
Pot Hale

Posts : 7675
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 60
Location : North East

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by doctor_grey Mon 27 Apr 2015, 3:04 am

From imminent bankruptcy to wealthy? Fascinating how this can happen. Great management, I suppose.

But.........there should be debt service on the bonds, no?

doctor_grey

Posts : 10654
Join date : 2011-04-30

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by Rugby Fan Mon 27 Apr 2015, 4:50 am

doctor_grey wrote:From imminent bankruptcy to wealthy?  Fascinating how this can happen.   Great management, I suppose.

But.........there should be debt service on the bonds, no?  
Annual rate of 6.5%, paid in two tranches each year. It's a seven year bond.

Rugby Fan
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 7006
Join date : 2012-09-14

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by George Carlin Mon 27 Apr 2015, 7:21 am

I was a bit perturbed by what seems like a dump of more debt but apparently it's a refi loan, which makes a lot of sense in the current market. What was probably kept a bit quiet was that they secured the bond against the stadium - probably no way around that unless you fancy stumping up a large fee to a bank to underwrite the whole thing.

George Carlin
George Carlin
Admin
Admin

Posts : 15432
Join date : 2011-06-23
Location : United Arab Emirates

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by Chunky Norwich Mon 27 Apr 2015, 10:34 am

When Toulon do it, they are seen as a greedy rich man's plaything, not a brilliant business model run by intelligent people. Will be interesting to see reactions to this.

Chunky Norwich

Posts : 4409
Join date : 2011-12-08
Location : Location: Location:

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by lostinwales Mon 27 Apr 2015, 10:40 am

Through reading this thread without looking at the source material the situation appears to be that Wasps are rich because they can borrow a lot of money Headscratch

lostinwales
lostinwales
lostinwales

Posts : 12442
Join date : 2011-06-09
Location : Out of Wales :)

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by Nematode Mon 27 Apr 2015, 10:42 am

This might be stupid, but if there are salary caps and a limit on 'marquee' signings in the Aviva Premiership, then is there the need for Wasps to be the richest club in the WORLD?

I mean, do they really need to raise so much money if they can't use it?




Nematode

Posts : 1681
Join date : 2014-01-08

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by Lowlandbrit Mon 27 Apr 2015, 10:58 am

Nematode wrote:This might be stupid, but if there are salary caps and a limit on 'marquee' signings in the Aviva Premiership, then is there the need for Wasps to be the richest club in the WORLD?

I mean, do they really need to raise so much money if they can't use it?
I suppose just because there's a cap, doesn't mean it's set at a level that allows everyone to stay in the black.

Lowlandbrit

Posts : 2425
Join date : 2011-06-15
Location : Netherlands

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 27 Apr 2015, 11:00 am

Marquee signings also, so could go for the top players. More money to develop ground, youth training etc.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 27896
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by whocares Mon 27 Apr 2015, 11:01 am

Nematode wrote:This might be stupid, but if there are salary caps and a limit on 'marquee' signings in the Aviva Premiership, then is there the need for Wasps to be the richest club in the WORLD?

I mean, do they really need to raise so much money if they can't use it?

I assume most of that money is to refinance the loan inititially made to purchase their main asset (the stadium as mentionned by GC) and to develop it. Toulouse budget is very high because they also own an expensive stadium with load of amenities (restaurant, shops etc not a casino though) not because they spend a lot on players. their "players" budget is in fact not as high as the likes of Toulon who do not own their stadium (and hardly pays for it).

whocares

Posts : 4270
Join date : 2011-04-14
Age : 46
Location : France - paris area

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by Guest Mon 27 Apr 2015, 11:01 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:When Toulon do it, they are seen as a greedy rich man's plaything, not a brilliant business model run by intelligent people. Will be interesting to see reactions to this.

Is it a brilliant business model though? Are they now guaranteed to become one of the richest clubs in Europe? Does this "new business model" now mean that all clubs should now get into debt/further into debt by also buying and operating a hotel and casino?  Is he not simply talking up a product for sale?

Who needs broadcasters when we can all run casino's instead eh?

Not convinced.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by Chunky Norwich Mon 27 Apr 2015, 11:05 am

Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:When Toulon do it, they are seen as a greedy rich man's plaything, not a brilliant business model run by intelligent people. Will be interesting to see reactions to this.

Is it a brilliant business model though? Are they now guaranteed to become one of the richest clubs in Europe? Does this "new business model" now mean that all clubs should now get into debt/further into debt by also buying and operating a hotel and casino?  Is he not simply talking up a product for sale?

Who needs broadcasters when we can all run casino's instead eh?

Not convinced.

Toulon's business model is brilliant yes.

I'm not sure about the Wasps one.

Chunky Norwich

Posts : 4409
Join date : 2011-12-08
Location : Location: Location:

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by Guest Mon 27 Apr 2015, 11:09 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:When Toulon do it, they are seen as a greedy rich man's plaything, not a brilliant business model run by intelligent people. Will be interesting to see reactions to this.

Is it a brilliant business model though? Are they now guaranteed to become one of the richest clubs in Europe? Does this "new business model" now mean that all clubs should now get into debt/further into debt by also buying and operating a hotel and casino?  Is he not simply talking up a product for sale?

Who needs broadcasters when we can all run casino's instead eh?

Not convinced.

Toulon's business model is brilliant yes.

I'm not sure about the Wasps one.

Toulon run a hotel and casino? Anyway, I should probably have been a bit clearer. I was referring specifically to Wasps.

Time will tell if running casino's is the way to go for rugby clubs I guess.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by Chunky Norwich Mon 27 Apr 2015, 11:17 am

Munchkin wrote:

Toulon run a hotel and casino? Anyway, I should probably have been a bit clearer. I was referring specifically to Wasps.

Time will tell if running casino's is the way to go for rugby clubs I guess.

Toulon do run a hotel and restaurant that reaps in a fair whack of Euros. It's an important piece of revenue for them.

Chunky Norwich

Posts : 4409
Join date : 2011-12-08
Location : Location: Location:

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by beshocked Mon 27 Apr 2015, 11:21 am

How does one define "rich"? Is it revenue generated? Wealth of backers? Assets owned?

How much your players earn?

Who ultimately owns the Ricoh Arena? I am confused.


beshocked

Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by Guest Mon 27 Apr 2015, 11:22 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Toulon run a hotel and casino? Anyway, I should probably have been a bit clearer. I was referring specifically to Wasps.

Time will tell if running casino's is the way to go for rugby clubs I guess.

Toulon do run a hotel and restaurant that reaps in a fair whack of Euros. It's an important piece of revenue for them.


I was really pointing at the context of my questions, Chunky.

Hotels might actually make sense for some rugby clubs. If they can afford them, and depending on the local competition. Maybe the Regions should invest 5 star hotels?

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by Guest Mon 27 Apr 2015, 11:24 am

beshocked wrote:How does one define "rich"? Is it revenue generated? Wealth of backers? Assets owned?

How much your players earn?

Who ultimately owns the Ricoh Arena? I am confused.


Excellent questions.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by Chunky Norwich Mon 27 Apr 2015, 11:26 am

Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Toulon run a hotel and casino? Anyway, I should probably have been a bit clearer. I was referring specifically to Wasps.

Time will tell if running casino's is the way to go for rugby clubs I guess.

Toulon do run a hotel and restaurant that reaps in a fair whack of Euros. It's an important piece of revenue for them.


I was really pointing at the context of my questions, Chunky.

Hotels might actually make sense for some rugby clubs. If they can afford them, and depending on the local competition. Maybe the Regions should invest 5 star hotels?

They can barely afford the flights to play Treviso.

Increasing your revenue streams is a great way to increase your stability as a rugby club. But as pointed out, the wider context is key. I know nothing about the types of bonds Wasps are using so can't really comment on the way they're being run.

Good point made about what defines being "rich" though. For instance there is a massive difference between say Toulon and Bristol RFC. Yet how they are perceived in public is somewhat perplexing.

Chunky Norwich

Posts : 4409
Join date : 2011-12-08
Location : Location: Location:

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by George Carlin Mon 27 Apr 2015, 1:13 pm

lostinwales wrote:Through reading this thread without looking at the source material the situation appears to be that Wasps are rich because they can borrow a lot of money Headscratch
Laugh
George Carlin
George Carlin
Admin
Admin

Posts : 15432
Join date : 2011-06-23
Location : United Arab Emirates

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by TightHEAD Mon 27 Apr 2015, 1:14 pm

They may be rich but they have few fans.
TightHEAD
TightHEAD

Posts : 6192
Join date : 2014-09-25
Age : 61
Location : Brexit Island.

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by funnyExiledScot Mon 27 Apr 2015, 1:18 pm

George Carlin wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Through reading this thread without looking at the source material the situation appears to be that Wasps are rich because they can borrow a lot of money Headscratch
Laugh

Reminds me of when I received my first pay cheque many moons ago. I was rich for the entirety of a weekend......

A more interesting article will be the one in 7 years time when the repayments have been made, and to see whether the admittedly cheap money (in relative terms) was used wisely. That's the real trick.

funnyExiledScot

Posts : 16933
Join date : 2011-05-31
Age : 42
Location : Edinburgh

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by SecretFly Mon 27 Apr 2015, 1:27 pm

Boom 'n' Boom.  Nothing ever flops.  It's like Thatcher's Britain all over again.  Fancy slipstream young guys with Alfa Sharp hairdos and suits, making Profit where loss should be, and vice versa, by using custom made Financial 'Products' to magic mirror debt under the carpet.

It'll last for ever.  Let the good times roll! Wink

Now...who'll direct me back to the Rugby Pages?  I just came to the Financial Times Index pages out of curiosity.

SecretFly

Posts : 31800
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by George Carlin Mon 27 Apr 2015, 1:31 pm

SecretFly wrote:Boom 'n' Boom.  Nothing ever flops.  It's like Thatcher's Britain all over again.  Fancy slipstream young guys with Alfa Sharp hairdos and suits, making Profit where loss should be, and vice versa, by using custom made Financial 'Products' to magic mirror debt under the carpet.

It'll last for ever.  Let the good times roll! Wink

Now...who'll direct me back to the Rugby Pages?  I just came to the Financial Times Index pages out of curiosity.
George Carlin
George Carlin
Admin
Admin

Posts : 15432
Join date : 2011-06-23
Location : United Arab Emirates

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by SecretFly Mon 27 Apr 2015, 1:38 pm

Yahoo  Aldi Skiing Gear.  Yeah, those were the good times.  

Of course Aldi (the store for poor people) only suspiciously turned up when we were about to crash........ Whistle And of course it wasn't them who was lending the money in the first place...  

First create wealth, then bring your discount stores in to be ready for the poor people when you decide to create some poverty again.

SecretFly

Posts : 31800
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by LondonTiger Mon 27 Apr 2015, 1:50 pm

People get their knickers in a twist over a silly little soundbite.

Proof that people never learn and evolution is Love sacks.

Come lord destroy us all, send a flood for we are doomed.

LondonTiger
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 23485
Join date : 2011-02-10

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by SecretFly Mon 27 Apr 2015, 1:56 pm

'Knickers in a Twist' is a colourful but inaccurate tug of a G-String there, Tiger.
I suggest more that it's simply a outlet for some devilment in the face of 'Richest' being the new 'Best' in Club Rugby Union. Wink

If Wasps are serious, it should be a final next year between them and Toulouse for the Europe's Richest Champions Cup.

SecretFly

Posts : 31800
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by nathan Mon 27 Apr 2015, 2:13 pm

SecretFly wrote:Yahoo  Aldi Skiing Gear.  Yeah, those were the good times.  

Of course Aldi (the store for poor people) only suspiciously turned up when we were about to crash........ Whistle And of course it wasn't them who was lending the money in the first place...  

First create wealth, then bring your discount stores in to be ready for the poor people when you decide to create some poverty again.

Didn't know Aldi was for poor people, me and my wife shop there, halves our bill!

nathan

Posts : 11024
Join date : 2011-06-14
Location : Leicestershire

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by niwatts Mon 27 Apr 2015, 2:17 pm

It's good to see Wasps are keeping their attendances up.  They were only getting around 6,000 most weeks at Adams Park, but the Ricoh seems stable around 16,000 since the schools offer finished, only Tigers in the league regularly get more (saw an article that said their coming derby at the Ricoh is a sellout).  What have visitors on here made of the stadium and atmosphere?

niwatts

Posts : 587
Join date : 2011-08-28

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by SecretFly Mon 27 Apr 2015, 2:18 pm

Grand.

You're not poor Wink

The stores let rich people in. But they're still designed to let poor people buy.

SecretFly

Posts : 31800
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by beshocked Mon 27 Apr 2015, 2:23 pm

A similar situation to what makes a rich club is what makes a "big" or "small" club. Is it history? Recent results? Attendances? Size of away fans? Again is it revenue generated? Salary of squad? Amount of internationals?


It's all very subjective IMO.

Wasps might be able to generate £35 million but the likes of Mourad,Craig and Rupert dwarf this in financial backing.


Nigel Wray was ranked joint 410th on richest men in Britain - he's just one of the backers of Saracens. Didn't check where Nick Leslau is. They are junior partners compared to Johann Rupert. Guys worth £200m plus are junior? Well of course to someone worth over $7.3 billion.


Couldn't find Bruce Craig either but I am sure he is on the list.


How much is Welford Road worth for example? Leicester have that significant asset under their belt.

Also what is the worth of each brand? How does one put a price tag on a club?

Not easy is it?

Each club has strengths and weaknesses - difficult to weigh them up.


Also a championship club like Worcester Warriors has a higher capacity stadium than the likes of Newcastle,Sale and Saracens.

beshocked

Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by Chunky Norwich Mon 27 Apr 2015, 2:25 pm

beshocked wrote:

Wasps might be able to generate £35 million but the likes of Mourad,Craig and Rupert dwarf this in financial backing.
.

Mourad doesn't put any in anymore. Doesn't need to.

Chunky Norwich

Posts : 4409
Join date : 2011-12-08
Location : Location: Location:

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by Bathman_in_London Mon 27 Apr 2015, 3:16 pm

http://www.fixedincomeinvestor.co.uk/x/analysis.html?type=bond-of-the-week&cat=analysis-comment&y=2015&aid=1367


For those interested in this sort of thing.

Interestingly it says they bought the stadium for c.20m and it has been since valued at over 40m...

Bathman_in_London

Posts : 2266
Join date : 2011-06-03

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by SecretFly Mon 27 Apr 2015, 3:34 pm

Bathman_in_London wrote:http://www.fixedincomeinvestor.co.uk/x/analysis.html?type=bond-of-the-week&cat=analysis-comment&y=2015&aid=1367


For those interested in this sort of thing.

Interestingly it says they bought the stadium for c.20m and it has been since valued at over 40m...

Yeah, that bit was interesting:
"In October last year they bought the arena for £20 million from the council and the council provided nearly 70% of the cost by way of a loan. Now it has been revalued at £48.5 million by Strutt and Parker. As the CEO David Armstrong said to me when I asked him how this had been possible; excellent negotiating skills."

Did David forget his emoticon requirements in that quote?  Never forget your emoticon obligations Mr Armstrong.  That's "Excellent negotiating skills  Whistle  "

SecretFly

Posts : 31800
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by Bathman_in_London Mon 27 Apr 2015, 5:01 pm

Yes, the vendor providing a loan for the purchaser to buy it at a knockdown value certainly takes some negotiating skills!

Bathman_in_London

Posts : 2266
Join date : 2011-06-03

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by SecretFly Mon 27 Apr 2015, 5:14 pm

Bathman_in_London wrote:Yes, the vendor providing a loan for the purchaser to buy it at a knockdown value certainly takes some negotiating skills!
...whilst both of them already knowing the real market value Cool  (a building doesn't increase in value by 28 million in a six or seven months unless it was always worth that price to begin with)

SecretFly

Posts : 31800
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by Pot Hale Mon 27 Apr 2015, 8:21 pm

Wasps bought the half-share that Coventry City Council owned in the Arena's operating company ACL.   ACL already had existing debts comprising a loan from the council of 14.4m over 40 years.  So Wasps in effect bought the loan as part of the stated purchase price with revised terms to make it attractive.  ACL at the time was making a loss.  

Wasps offered to halve the term of repayment to 20 years and put a €1m deposit down on the loan at the outset. They also agreed to pay the full-interest (5%) charge that would have accrued over 40 years.  In addition, Wasps/Richardson paid £2.77m to the council for their half-share of ACL, and the same amount to a charity trust for the other half-share.

The bond issue of £25-35m will allow Wasps to pay back the loan to  the Council who in effect will get back all their loan money plus the full 40 year interest in half the time, with a €1m down-payment in advance.  Wasps also owe specialist bankers, Close Brothers, £4m - likely used as part of the purchase monies, and then pay Derek Richardson back a max of £10m for a loan he made.   Investors get a good return on their money (6.5%) after 7 years max, but could be earlier.

Richardson seems to be quite bullish about prospects for the whole venture and for Wasps.  He says he's not pushed whether Coventry City FC stay or go as tenants, they're not part of the big picture for the long-term - nice to have but not essential as the cliche goes.   In general, those who own their own stadia in the Premiership tend to make a profit, those who don't - don't.   Mr Richardson seems to be satisfied his initial investment in the rugby club isn't destined to be another putting-money-in-a-hole-in-the-ground  as many previous, and current benefactors, have experienced.   7-10 years will see how well it plays out.  Or maybe sooner, if Wasps fortunes on the pitch, as well as off it, continue to rise.
Pot Hale
Pot Hale

Posts : 7675
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 60
Location : North East

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by doctor_grey Tue 28 Apr 2015, 2:11 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:From imminent bankruptcy to wealthy?  Fascinating how this can happen.   Great management, I suppose.

But.........there should be debt service on the bonds, no?  
Annual rate of 6.5%, paid in two tranches each year. It's a seven year bond.
6.5% on a 7 year bond is reasonable, I suppose. So the 'wealth' comment is just a sound bite, at least for now.

This is interesting as a vehicle for investing in a club today. As said above a lot of the money goes to service their existing debt plus invest in facilities - the intent of which is to draw more supporters and make the club facilities more attractive for players. If the strategy works and they make Ricoh Arena a 'destination' then the investment should pay off. Given they purchased the Ricoh at a substantial discount, then it is reasonable to presume this was part of the original purchase strategy.

Again, as said above, it will take some years, possibly up to 10 years to see how well this strategy has worked.

doctor_grey

Posts : 10654
Join date : 2011-04-30

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by SecretFly Tue 28 Apr 2015, 10:08 am

But who potentially profits from selling a complex for less than half its actual quoted value when there are then opportunities to make 6.5% on a 7 year bond with some personal investments.

I'm not a big Finance and Stocks fan or follower or expert, but that sounds like a sizeable slice of insider illegal trading if some of those councillors who sold the place end up as investors in Wasps .........??? - Yes? No?

SecretFly

Posts : 31800
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by Draigoch Tue 28 Apr 2015, 4:37 pm

Feels like a big gamble on the Ricoh paying off...

This means they'll be tied to paying early 2.3m in yearly interest... understand the soundbite drums up publicity for the bond, but hope they don't live to regret it..

Draigoch

Posts : 304
Join date : 2011-03-04

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by Pot Hale Tue 28 Apr 2015, 7:49 pm

SecretFly wrote:But who potentially profits from selling a complex for less than half its actual quoted value when there are then opportunities to make 6.5% on a 7 year bond with some personal investments.

I'm not a big Finance and Stocks fan or follower or expert, but that sounds like a sizeable slice of insider illegal trading if some of those councillors who sold the place end up as investors in Wasps .........??? - Yes? No?

Value is always determined in the end by what someone is willing to pay for it.

ACL was the thing that was available for purchase - owned by two separate entities. It was loss-making and had a largeish debt of 14.4 m repayable over 40 years. It had a flaky tenant in Coventry City. And it was being run by a local authority. So what are you willing to pay for it set against what the Council would like for it?

Someone comes along and says we'd be interested as long as we have total control. So we want both half-shares. No deal otherwise.

Ok. Well, the company owes us 14.5m and it'll be half a lifetime before we get that back. Ok, we'll take on the debt and how about we pay you all of the loan plus interest back in half that time? And here's a million quid to show good faith.

Hmmm.

It's running at a loss of half a million quid a year, but nonetheless we think we could turn it around. We'll also pay you 5.5m for the share.

Keep talking......


Ok, boys now that we've bought the place, and started making some inroads into the operating losses, let's get the monkey Council off our backs. And Derek would like his money back before he pops his clogs, and the bank would like its money back too.

Let's put up an investment bond (a risk-based activity) and see if we can raise enough money to pay everyone back, and put a good coupon on the money to offset the risk for investors? Good plan. Now we need to make ourselves look good, so we need a top class business plan, part of which should include an independent assessment of the Arena's value based on that plan. Great idea - who could we use?

The 6.5% is not guaranteed - if the whole thing nosedives then....



Pot Hale
Pot Hale

Posts : 7675
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 60
Location : North East

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by whocares Tue 28 Apr 2015, 8:44 pm

If the whole thing nosedives... Well I read they used the stadium AND Wasps Premiership shares as a colletaral to theses bonds. So tip to the IRFU : buy a bucket load of those bonds and if things go bad then you could end up owning part of the Premiership Run

whocares

Posts : 4270
Join date : 2011-04-14
Age : 46
Location : France - paris area

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by InjuredYetAgain Tue 28 Apr 2015, 9:55 pm

A coupon of 6.5% will be extremely attractive to investors.
I really cant be arsed reading all the bumf but I od wonder if they have securitised BT/Sky money which will go a long way to meeting the debt servicing costs. This, to an extent, kills their own cashflow but gives a lot of comfort to the bond holders.
At the end of the day, is this proposal massively different from the SRU (and every other "home" governing body - I don't know about you French guys, Whocares) issuing debentures?

InjuredYetAgain

Posts : 1317
Join date : 2011-06-02
Age : 56
Location : Edinburgh

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by whocares Tue 28 Apr 2015, 10:43 pm

InjuredYetAgain wrote:A coupon of 6.5% will be extremely attractive to investors.
I really cant be arsed reading all the bumf but I od wonder if they have securitised BT/Sky money which will go a long way to meeting the debt servicing costs. This, to an extent, kills their own cashflow but gives a lot of comfort to the bond holders.
At the end of the day, is this proposal massively different from the SRU (and every other "home" governing body - I don't know about you French guys, Whocares) issuing debentures?

The FFR did issue debentures to partly finance their new stadium last year but, and it was not exactly a surprise, failed big time: a mere 5million euros was the target and the equivalent of 350k€ of 50 years bond were subscribed. The only thing the investor was meant to get (on top of his money back eventually , as of course there was zero coupon) was the privilege of being able to buy (before anyone else) tickets at face value in the future new stadium for all France games (except worldcup ones) during 15 years.


Last edited by whocares on Tue 28 Apr 2015, 10:47 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Numbers)

whocares

Posts : 4270
Join date : 2011-04-14
Age : 46
Location : France - paris area

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by InjuredYetAgain Tue 28 Apr 2015, 10:58 pm

Why was there so little interest, whocares. I thought most (all?) French games sold out so people would like the comfort of knowing they can get a ticket if they want one.

InjuredYetAgain

Posts : 1317
Join date : 2011-06-02
Age : 56
Location : Edinburgh

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by whocares Tue 28 Apr 2015, 11:08 pm

InjuredYetAgain wrote:Why was there so little interest, whocares. I thought most (all?) French games sold out so people would like the comfort of knowing they can get a ticket if they want one.

It can be tough to get 6N tickets for the likes of England but in the last 2 years I never had trouble to get tickets for other games (incl NZ in te AIs). debenture ticket holder is an untested concept here anyway and the ffr sold that as a financial investment which is the exact opposite of what it is. Pricing was also not adequate imo: 10000 € is a lot of money for the option to buy 1 ticket in the future specially if they exclude worldcup ones.

whocares

Posts : 4270
Join date : 2011-04-14
Age : 46
Location : France - paris area

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by nathan Thu 07 May 2015, 12:45 pm

Looks like they have reached the £35m target in a week

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/32623942

nathan

Posts : 11024
Join date : 2011-06-14
Location : Leicestershire

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by Pot Hale Thu 07 May 2015, 2:14 pm

That is some achievement. Although one could be cynical and ask who bought the bonds?

A line at the bottom of the report is also interesting: "Wasps, who are still in contention for a top-four Premiership place, are sold out for this Saturday's first meeting at their new home with neighbours Leicester Tigers, in front of a capacity 32,600 crowd."

Those are pretty impressive crowd numbers compared to the weekly average in the Premiership. Is there a substantial latent number of supporters that a number of Premiership clubs could tap into if their ground capacity increased? What's been the average attendance at Ricoh since they moved?
Pot Hale
Pot Hale

Posts : 7675
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 60
Location : North East

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by Coleman Thu 07 May 2015, 3:13 pm

Vs London Irish 28,254
Vs Sale 15,343
Vs Quins 16,116
Vs Glos 14,056
Vs Saracens 16,874
Vs Exeter 16,712

The average up to now has been 17,892. 
I got those from the Prem website. (Mobile, linking is a nightmare sorry).

Coleman

Posts : 1554
Join date : 2011-06-02
Location : Cardiff

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by LondonTiger Thu 07 May 2015, 3:20 pm

So, with Wasps averaging 18k at the Ricoh, Tigers 22.5K so far this season at Welford Rd and less than 25 miles between the two grounds by road, no real wonder that the game is sold out.

LondonTiger
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 23485
Join date : 2011-02-10

Back to top Go down

"Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world" Empty Re: "Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world"

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum