AP Clubs Vote to Block Salary Cap Investigation!

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It's from The Times so only a snap shot:

Exclusive: Clubs block salary-cap investigation

Saracens and one other club had reportedly been under investigation for alleged breaches

John Westerby, Owen Slot Chief Rugby Correspondent

Leading clubs in England have voted in favour of suspending investigations into potential salary-cap breaches to protect the image of the Aviva Premiership.
At a time when Saracens and one other club had reportedly been under investigation for alleged breaches, The Times understands that a majority of clubs have voted for inquiries to be suspended, in part for fear of alienating sponsors and fans, and jeopardising their position in negotiations with the RFU over a new relationship governing the release of England players.

I can not see how this can mean anything other then Saracens were found to be in breach of the cap, and the clubs have decided to act amongst themselves and cover it up rather then it go further.

Is this good for the game in England?

It doesn't matter whether it was JUST for the money. the fact that they are paying over the agreed spend allowed it to become a reality. Maybe they did think Bath were partially on the up. Why would that be? Good facilities yes, but also other good players going there, facilitated by spending over the cap. How can you not see that it's all connected?

The fact is that Bath and Saracens have cheated, whether you agree with the rules or not. The second fact, that they're not going to be punished for it is nothing short of scandalous!

Players moving is often not just about the money, but I do wonder if they would have moved if the hiring club had paid them only what they could afford to keep within the cap.

Actually I do not wonder. Near doubling your salary is attractive, playing for free is not.

"My feeling is that rugby is only about passion. Football is changing a lot and I cannot say the same." - Jose Mourinho

How long will it be before Rugby Union loses that respect?

So is it now a fact that Bath and Sarries have cheated?

I can't find my original post on this but the Bath MD Tarquin McDonald said: "We are under the cap and we're going to be under the cap next year.
"There's quite a significant step up in terms of the cap next year, around 20 per cent or so, so that allows for the investment in players we've seen.
"The signings like Rhys Priestland and Niko Matawalu... that's all possible because the shareholders have said we need to further invest in the players we're bringing into the club."

In contrast Wray said: “Like them, we look at every single method of stretching the boundaries. What do we think of an outside company wanting one of your players to promote this or that? Where do those image rights fit it? I am not particularly worried about questions directed our way. Our [legal] advice is that we have not broken the salary cap.”

A quick scan through the salary cap blerb reveals that "legitimate expenses" aren't covered, which I presume gives some wriggle room for legal interpretation and allows the argument that a club is following the letter of the law, if not the spirit.

Ozzy3123 can't call it a fact till we have all the evidence in front of us. As of now it's just theoretical. Legally speaking Saracens and Bath will only be exposed as cheats if charged.

I have already said why they won't be punished.

People get away with things. Like Maradona's hand ball or Neil Back's hand.

What would sate your appetite? Would you want Saracens and Bath to be destroyed and go bankrupt?

You have to look at things both ways - if Saracens and Bath have indeed cheated then it's not right (saying that I think the salary cap rules are wrong anyway).

The book could be thrown at both clubs just before the RWC, destroying both clubs, throwing the English RWC challenge which has quite a few Saracens and Bath players into disarray, damaging the AP by destroying two of the clubs.

Alternatively instead the clubs have decided to sweep it under the carpet to keep the peace.


Londontiger you can speculate but we don't know what each player is on and we don't how much Saracens and Bath allegedly broke the cap (they haven't been charged of anything as of yet).

beshocked wrote:Ozzy3123 can't call it a fact till we have all the evidence in front of us. As of now it's just theoretical. Legally speaking Saracens and Bath will only be exposed as cheats if charged.

I have already said why they won't be punished.

People get away with things. Like Maradona's hand ball or Neil Back's hand.

What would sate your appetite? Would you want Saracens and Bath to be destroyed and go bankrupt?

You have to look at things both ways - if Saracens and Bath have indeed cheated then it's not right (saying that I think the salary cap rules are wrong anyway).

The book could be thrown at both clubs just before the RWC, destroying both clubs, throwing the English RWC challenge which has quite a few Saracens and Bath players into disarray, damaging the AP by destroying two of the clubs.

Alternatively instead the clubs have decided to sweep it under the carpet to keep the peace.


Londontiger you can speculate but we don't know what each player is on and we don't how much Saracens and Bath allegedly broke the cap (they haven't been charged of anything as of yet).

Look, we know they haven't been charged yet, so technically, they're innocent. But we all know that really, they're both as guilty as puppies sitting next to piles of poo.

I also don't think that punishment, whatever may be handed down, will be sufficient to 'destroy the clubs'. That's an over exaggeration deliberately designed to sensationalise the issue. It is ridiculous to suggest that punishment would even be designed to 'destroy the clubs'. Historically, points deductions, fines and even demotions were handed down for naughty teams, but as far as I know, none were consigned to history.

As for the world cup, players in such teams wouldn't worry too much I'd think, they're doing a job for England right now, they'd most likely begin to care about possible ramifications of their clubs being cheating barstewards when they got back from international duty.

Bathman_in_London wrote:So is it now a fact that Bath and Sarries have cheated?

Depends on the definition of a fact.

PRL will not be announcing that any team have exceeded the cap. At the stakeholders meeting on Wednesday the report from the investigation will be formally shredded and any indiscretions by any guilty parties will be pardoned.

Which is really shameful.

If Saracens go bankrupt it will not be due to any fines.

It will be due to the massive debt (£40m at last count) and the continuing annual losses (£5m).

Nice sustainable model and of course they should be allowed to spend more money.

Londontiger I have explained this a few times.

Saracens haven't had their own stadium for long. Now they have that base they can get that house in order. Getting a stadium to call one's own is costly.

Having one's own home is a big deal. I expect that Saracens will start to bring those losses down.

No it's not the fines but if Saracens were charged then the backers might well pull out which would effectively destroy the club. Also of course there's the sponsors etc too.

Is it an exaggeration? Well we wouldn't know unless Saracens and Bath are charged.

My heart still bleeds for Lance Armstrong.

Well, to an outsider (and evidently to many English supporters too) it sounds like a Court is saying:

"We have the killers here in court, we've seen the evidence and know they are guilty without doubt. We know too that many in the press gallery will go out now and communicate this fact to the general public.  But, despite the communication of the truth to the public, the court has decided to proceed and quash all charges, burn all documents and never again officially bring the subject up again in this Court of Law.
The Guilty Defendants, who also blackmailed, threatened and bribed themselves to such a considered conclusion by this Court, are now free to go.



I can't see the media in England allowing this to stand.  The timing is excellent though - WC distraction coming to town.  But I respect the English media enough to know someone somewhere will come back to this after the World Cup.

No 7&1/2 wrote:My heart still bleeds for Lance Armstrong.

How dare you. Lance never officially failed a drugs test. Even if he had any punishments would only have harmed cycling, therefore brushing it all under the carpet was the correct thing to do.

I know it's a silly example but there are parallels where people felt he shouldn't be stripped of titles, exposed etc as it would harm his cancer charity etc. Tough in my view. You break the rules not only should justice be done, it should be seen to be done.

Ballad of the Boy who never Sinned.


I'm a poor wittle Cycle boy
All I do is climb,
And them big bold Journal-ists
Tell me that's a crime

Never mind the syringe holes,
Never mind the rabbit blood,
Mind you own business on the drugs bags.
You'd do the same if you could.

I'm the best that's ever been,
And I didn't need no help.
Just climbed up on my bicycle,
And raided the Pharmacist's shelf.

SecretFly wrote:Well, to an outsider (and evidently to many English supporters too) it sounds like a Court is saying:

The argument will be that those English among us upset by this are driven merely by club loyalties, and would behave differently if our clubs were implicated. And it is impossible for us to disprove that POV until our clubs are up before the beak.

I can state numerous times that should Leicester be found guilty and be docked points and relegated that I would support the action till I am blue in the face, but certain people will never/ever believe that. As it is I will be attending this years AGM and I will try desperately to get a question tabled about this fiasco. I want our executive to be accountable to the shareholders and the fans for their part in this farrago.

As an aside, while Armstrong deserved everything he got, it is wrong that other cheats have been allowed back into cycling and are still racing or coaching.

But anyway, I hope everything isn't covered up, there needs to be a clear statement either naming and shaming or saying that teams were within the letter of the law. It seems unlikely that any cover up would remain so for long.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I know it's a silly example but there are parallels where people felt he shouldn't be stripped of titles, exposed etc as it would harm his cancer charity etc. Tough in my view. You break the rules not only should justice be done, it should be seen to be done.

Actually I think it is an apt example

Secretfly respect the English media?

The media wouldn't report this for noble reasons - it would be because it makes a good story.

Now I can understand wanting Saracens and Bath to be punished because allegedly they have been breaking the rules to protect the integrity of the game and prevent alleged cheaters from getting away with it. I can see where you're coming from and if that happens then fair enough.

Unfortunately for you idealist lot - the media don't see it that way. It's just a story they could milk and milk to sell more papers like Bloodgate but it's bigger.

beshocked wrote: Secretfly respect the English media?

The media wouldn't report this for noble reasons - it would be because it makes a good story.

Now I can understand wanting Saracens and Bath to be punished because allegedly they have been breaking the rules to protect the integrity of the game and prevent alleged cheaters from getting away with it. I can see where you're coming from and if that happens then fair enough.

Unfortunately for you idealist lot - the media don't see it that way. It's just a story they could milk and milk to sell more papers like Bloodgate but it's bigger.

Well I didn't claim they were saints, shocked. I said I respect the English media...in that they can sniff out a story from anywhere in the world and manage it and work it to do what they do -which is to keep the public informed for their own profit interests.
So I'm saying this story that seems to contain all the ingredients that any media outlet would die for - corruption, threats, colourful characters, intrigue, secrets being burned, whistleblowers blowing, cobwebs creeping, big bizz, little clubs, cover-up, close-down......
All that will not evade the greedy eye of investigative journalists in England who love chasing down the details on stuff like that. So for now, the greater English media might ignore it as they focus in on the coming WC. But after the WC, it's certain some of them will be back hot on the trail of burned documents and threats issued to bring about cover-ups invoked. I respect their professionalism in dogging down a story that's too juicy to ignore.

Secretfly yes they can sniff out a story from anywhere in the world but it's generally for selfish purposes.

You can respect them if you want but in general I don't.

Even the picture of the dead Syrian boy is a manipulative technique to sell more papers and exploit the Syrian crisis.

The media are telling their story and their slant.

The story wouldn't be told for noble reasons - greed would be at the heart of it.

Of course I should also add that some methods of gaining stories are of questionable legality too.

The media are hardly the guilty party in this. It would be nice to see this followed through and some pressure applied if a cover up goes ahead.

beshocked wrote: Secretfly yes they can sniff out a story from anywhere in the world but it's generally for selfish purposes.

You can respect them if you want but in general I don't.

Even the picture of the dead Syrian boy is a manipulative technique to sell more papers and exploit the Syrian crisis.

The media are telling their story and their slant.

The story wouldn't be told for noble reasons - greed would be at the heart of it.

Of course I should also add that some methods of gaining stories are of questionable legality too.

I sincerely doubt it.

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

Well done Messrs Wray and Craig, you've turned our sport into a farce. It does make me question why I bother spending £400 on a season ticket when teams are openly cheating. They cannot be allowed to sweep this under the carpet and I'd love to see fans put pressure on the the Jeff's commercial partners, i.e. Aviva, Land Rover, etc. How do they feel being associated with the sham that is the Jeff?

no 7 & 1/2 the media is rarely blameless. The general desire of the media is to drag a story out and out when in most cases a quick clean resolution IMO is the best option.

Whether that's swiftly prosecuting Oscar Pistorius instead of turning it into a media circus, or punishing Quins for bloodgate and moving on.

What I fear is that the media would milk the story for as long as they can. Not for any noble goal but to sell more newspapers.

Perhaps you enjoy the media circus. I don't.

Jimpy are you so naive that you cannot see that it was a manipulative piece of media designed to shock people and generate publicity and sell more papers?

HKC the Irish don't have a salary cap, the French have one far greater than ours. Perhaps it is the size of the salary cap which is the issue. Wouldn't be breaking the rules if the AP had a salary cap in line with our main rivals.

I am not condoning the breaking of the rules and think they should be punished. I do think that the reasons why the rules were broken in the first place has to be addressed though.

I differ to most because if there is going to be a punishment then it should be after the world cup. Do not want attention to be taken away from the world cup.

Is there going to be punishment?

Has that point been declared openly by PRL in a public statement?

Why should there be an 'IF'? We've had IF now for long enough. First the conclusions were delayed from earlier in the year until now, and now it seems conclusions are to be non-declared, covered up and buried - which is a little comical btw as the news, such as it is, is already out there that something very suspicious is to be rubbed clean in private and given a brand new health certificate. So much for privacy.

But IF wrong has been done and a team has won a Championship because of an illegal advantage then......... there is no IF. It should be simply 'When'.

You can definitely point to large mistakes the media have made but they're essential in society now. In this instance they should now provide a valuable service in pressurising the powers that be to avoid a cover up. I don't mind anymore that it be after the world cup if they have genuine concerns of impact though I don't think they will; the important thing is that it is open and they share the findings. If guilty and they do decide on points deductions they should scrub the play offs results apply the points deductions to last years league (I know that the decision is timed to now only affect this years but I don't think that's fair, it's already potentially affected the winners of the comp).

no 7 & 1/2

For all you know there might be other reasons why things are not open. I am not just talking about Saracens and Bath.

The logistics of that isn't straightforward though is it?

Let's say that you use point deductions for last season then who do you award the league to?

Saints? Both Tigers and Saints lost to sides that have allegedly broken the cap.

Also your little strategem wouldn't have helped Exeter who missed out on a playoff place.

Also let's say you deducted 30-40 points - they would still have been above LW and wouldn't have been relegated.

Not all rules and laws are thought through.

In the case of the salary cap - it could be interpreted as holding back English clubs from being able to compete with Irish and French clubs (no salary cap and a much higher salary cap respectively).

Bath and Saracens wouldn't be allegedly breaking the rules if the cap was more in line with our rivals as it probably should be.

I would just award it to the team with the most points after any deductions. It's not a great situation full stop but if guilty Bath and Saracens shoudln't be allowed to profit. If guilty and in receipt of a fine for instance then Saracens did actually buy the title.

Yes I agree Saracens and Bath wouldn't have broken the rules if the rules were different. But alas it's looking more like blatent cheating.

shocked, you're either championing a past that should be brushed under the carpet and forgotten or a future as yet unwritten.

How about sticking with the present, which supposedly involves a few AP sides outsmarting the others and seemingly one taking the illegal advantages all the way to a final and a Chamionship.  That would be clearly assessed as corruption, especially if such activity was buried by the overview body (PRL) under some tag of it being in the interests of the sport and profit to do so.

The cap is what it is - something contractually agreed to by all AP teams.  When one or two sides decide they're not going to abide by the contract obligations then it doesn't matter what argument they use - they have cheated on their fellow members of the PRL.  
Excuses are excuses, reasons for cheating are reasons for cheating but the fact remains that they've helped themselves through one, two or more seasons by giving themselves a financial advantage over the others that runs counter to the contracts they've signed.

secretfly the present? Don't particularly want the media to pry into things during the RWC because it will damage the RWC.

Excuses are excuses? Doesn't stop the Irish blaming the ref for every one of their defeats....


There is no salary cap in Ireland. A very high cap in France. There's an argument that perhaps there should be a cap more in line with France.

As for illegality I thought that one of the clubs was allegedly going to fight the case in the European courts if charges were pressed. Can't really use the term illegal because neither team has been charged of anything yet. Also it seems as if both teams have experienced lawyers.

"if it wasn't a law I wouldn't have broken it" absolute Horlicks. It is they cheated they need to be punished

beshocked wrote:

HKC the Irish don't have a salary cap, the French have one far greater than ours. Perhaps it is the size of the salary cap which is the issue. Wouldn't be breaking the rules if the AP had a salary cap in line with our main rivals.

I am not condoning the breaking of the rules and think they should be punished. I do think that the reasons why the rules were broken in the first place has to be addressed though.

I differ to most because if there is going to be a punishment then it should be after the world cup. Do not want attention to be taken away from the world cup.

To a large extent I agree, prevention is always better than cure and we need to address the reason this cheating has occurred and it is largely due to English clubs not being on a level financial playing field with European clubs. Nevertheless, will raising the cap solve the issue? What would stop clubs from spending more than any other European club in the future? If Bath and Sarries (and what now appears to be Saints) have breached the cap in some noble attempt to help others, then let's increase the cap in line with the French, but also let's send a clear message we cannot allow universal agreements to be broken at the drop of a hat by docking the clubs 40 points for the coming season.

For me it is quite simple, the PRL was formed to help give top clubs a proper commercial voice amongst the old farts at the RFU. All the clubs signed up to the agreement and to now wilfully flaunt the agreement and threaten legal action if challenged, is just pandering to the whim of the super rich who are throwing their toys out of the pram.

It is increasingly looking likely that no action will take place, but if by some miracle the clubs are disciplined then let's do it now before we alienate the new fans we gain during the RWC. Any good politician will tell you that you bury bad news on a good news day.

beshocked wrote:secretfly the present? Don't particularly want the media  to pry into things during the RWC because it will damage the RWC.

Excuses are excuses? Doesn't stop the Irish blaming the ref for every one of their defeats....


There is no salary cap in Ireland. A very high cap in France. There's an argument that perhaps there should be a cap more in line with France.

As for illegality I thought that one of the clubs was allegedly going to fight the case in the European courts if charges were pressed. Can't really use the term illegal because neither team has been charged of anything yet. Also it seems as if both teams have experienced lawyers.

You can't capture me with that line because you see I was one of the ones, the prominent ones, back before the New European agreement was signed, - and I know you'll remember so - who clearly and repeatedly said that if the PRL were honest about 'meritocracy' then they'd mention capping systems and look for changes there too so that all Leagues would have a common capping system designed to increase parity of 'meritocracy'.

But nope - not many of you folks were listening back then.  And I even suggested I knew the reasons.  People within PRL never wanted French spending contained, they simply wanted to mimic that spending when the Pro12 was weakened first.  And what transpires - the pressure to end the AP cap grows, just like I said it would.

It doesn't change the fact that if the current one was broken, then the breakers are cheaters.

HKC well that's the difficulty I guess. Where does it stop? Is there a compromise that is a permanent solution? Perhaps not.

I wouldn't disagree with a punishment and a rise in the cap. By the way I have said that Sarries and Bath should be punished I just disagree on when it should happen.

You honestly think opening up the can of worms right now is the correct time?

Bury? I think it's hard to bury this.

Secretfly I have always wanted a cap that is the same throughout all 3 leagues though the Irish don't have a cap.....

beshocked, I do think this is the best time. If we didn't know it was on hold then it would be fine, but we are all aware of the shady deals that are being made to keep this underwraps and if action is finally taken post-RWC, it has the potential to alienate the growth in supporter base the RWC will achieve. If Wray or Craig had any intention of complying to the agreement they would have held their hands up last season and taken a point deduction last year when there was no threat of relegation, instead their overwhelming arrogance shines through.

beshocked wrote:

Secretfly I have always wanted a cap that is the same throughout all 3 leagues though the Irish don't have a cap.....

Stop bringing up our 108Million per Province per annum thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's our business. We've cost calculated all that down to the last few hundred thousand or thereabouts! Not a grand wasted! The players even pay for their own exfoliation cream! So butt out.

Well I disagree with you on that. I think a home RWC in England is one of the worst times to bring out this story.

Not a story; bring the cheating out into the open.

If the AP do nothing what's to stop, say london Irish this year spending well over the cap? Sets a president does it not?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not a story; bring the cheating out into the open.

It should be done immediately. Its absolute rubbish to suggest that dealing with miscreant clubs would affect a global competition, that just happens to be based in England.

Agree completely. Hate the fact that due to the rules that they will choose to follow we may end up with the champions being confirmed cheats who only won because they cheated.

So in 12 months time when 2 clubs are found to still be breaking the salary cap will it be used an example of why something should have been done the first time, or as I predict, an example of why the cap needs to go all together?

Why does the cap need to go?

Mr Wray and Mr Craig think it's unfair on their clubs

secretfly that's your business, this is our business.... You tell me to butt out, seems a bit hypocritical..... Preaching from a country that doesn't have a salary cap....

no 7 & 1/2 it's a story whether you like it or not.

Jimpy it's rubbish is it? Any evidence or logic to back up that claim?

Immediately? Can't really use that word in regards to the investigation.....

carpet baboon surely the current discussion is about Bath and Saracens getting their houses in order so they are no longer over the cap? We honestly don't know what's happening behind the close doors.

You say what's to stop London Irish? Don't know. I guess LI could try it and find out!

We can all speculate - we can say what should happen but will have to wait and see what will happen. As it stands Bath and Saracens are not going to be punished, perhaps that will change, we'll see.

no 7 & 1/2 what would satisfy you?

Saracens stripped of the 2015 title? Saints made the 2015 champions? Saracens and Bath kicked out of Europe for a number of seasons? Instant relegation?

What's the sentence your honour?

What would sate your appetite?

Would it be enough to placate others?

The problem is I doubt that if they do get punished the punishment will be deemed harsh enough for some.

Any club found guilty of breaking the salary cap should suffer the punishment that club agreed to when the new rules were put in place. How is that unfair?

The thing which I'm annoyed about beshocked is they had chance to deal with this in time to apply any sanctions to last years comp, now any punishment will be next year. If saracens have cheated and are docked any points it means they would have not won last year. Ideally if this is the case I'd also like to see them stripped of the title. Would you be happy if it came out your club was cheating and could only win in this way? In summary it's now the timing which bugs me not the eventual punishment.

The exact punishments for breaches are laid out in their rules. It's nothing to do with 'harsh enough', it's just enforcing what they implement.

You make out like they shouldn't enforce the rules because it's logistically difficult. Surely that should be considered when you make the rules.

Scottrf wrote:The exact punishments for breaches are laid out in their rules. It's nothing to do with 'harsh enough', it's just enforcing what they implement.

You make out like they shouldn't enforce the rules because it's logistically difficult. Surely that should be considered when you make the rules.

And anyone who cheats knows the implications of getting caught. If a club has cheated to such a degree that any puncihement pushes them our of business - that is not the fault of the rules makers nor a reason not to punish. It was the fault of the cheaters.