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2 English clubs in the Pro 12??

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Post by Chunky Norwich Sun 03 May 2015, 11:50 am

First topic message reminder :

Being reported today that London Scottish and London Welsh are being lined up to play in the pro12.....if the Italian teams don't pay money owed to the league.

Fantastic news that English teams are already touted as playing in what could be an early British and Irish League. Even if it doesn't happen, these increasingly frequent bits and bobs are only the beginning of what is to come.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Tue 05 May 2015, 3:58 pm

If your talking from 2008/9 backwards then yes the Irish did nothing to promote the league. You can't say they aren't now though. The number of fans attending the games now, shows what the IRFU/Provinces have done for the Irish teams in the league..

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Post by Guest Tue 05 May 2015, 4:00 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:We all know neither of those last two would likely have showed at all had the Pro12 not had European Pedigree sides in it.  You see how it pans out?  Pro12 gains EARNING potential and INTEREST for itself IF the sides in it try their damnedest  in ALL constests they are in - Europe included.

Oh, thank god for the Irish, without them those sponsors would not have come, well that explains why the league is geared to suit the Irish then. Wink

But on a serious note, the Irish do not want the league to change, it suits them, if, heaven forbid the others teams managed to get more money and get the depth that the  Irish provinces have, we might spoil their party.

Yep, all the problems in Welsh rugby are the fault of IRFU. The Machiavellian IRFU have created those problems in order to keep you down, and us up...


Do you know how tin hatted that sounds?

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue 05 May 2015, 4:06 pm

LordDowlais wrote:

But on a serious note, the Irish do not want the league to change, it suits them, if, heaven forbid the others teams managed to get more money and get the depth that the  Irish provinces have, we might spoil their party.

Pretty much this. Just look at how they react to the suggestion of a single broadcaster / fixtures spread randomly on weekends. Heaven forbid the final gets played outside Ireland.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 05 May 2015, 4:07 pm

Munchkin wrote:Yep, all the problems in Welsh rugby are the fault of IRFU. The Machiavellian IRFU have created those problems in order to keep you down, and us up...


Do you know how tin hatted that sounds?

Your at it again saying things that I have not said to suit your own argument, when have I ever said that all the problems in Wales are the fault of the Irish ? What I have said, is that they way things are at the moment, it suits the Irish, and they would not want to change things, and that it is not everybody else that has held the league back in the past, it has been ALL OF US. It's just the Irish fans on here refuse to accept that.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 05 May 2015, 4:12 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:If your talking from 2008/9 backwards then yes the Irish did nothing to promote the league. You can't say they aren't now though. The number of fans attending the games now, shows what the IRFU/Provinces have done for the Irish teams in the league..

Yes thats grand, but more needs to be done, we need TMO's that are not from the same "branch" as the teams playing, we need games split fairly over the weekend period, we need refs who are not from the same branch/country as the teams playing and reffing games, we need to be in a place where people like me cannot say the things I am typing in this very paragraph. We need to take away the possibility of bias, and we need a league that is fair for everyone. We also need to change the criteria for the finals, because at the moment the only countries that fit the criteria are Ireland and Northern Ireland, which all come under the IRFU.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 05 May 2015, 4:16 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:We all know neither of those last two would likely have showed at all had the Pro12 not had European Pedigree sides in it.  You see how it pans out?  Pro12 gains EARNING potential and INTEREST for itself IF the sides in it try their damnedest  in ALL constests they are in - Europe included.

Oh, thank god for the Irish, without them those sponsors would not have come, well that explains why the league is geared to suit the Irish then. Wink

But on a serious note, the Irish do not want the league to change, it suits them, if, heaven forbid the others teams managed to get more money and get the depth that the  Irish provinces have, we might spoil their party.

You can laugh it off, laugh through it, sneer it as much as you want Lord.  You know it's true.  The only reason Guinness and Sky came onboard is because they have HEC winners in this Pro12 league to help them market the Pro12 product.

You asked what the IRFU bring now to the Pro12.  I mentioned a few and you produce a sneer - and back to the old idea that the Irish don't want the League to change.  And then you wonder why we don't exactly have much faith in this idea that the Welsh are now setting their own house in order.  Ending the obsession with the Irish might have been the first step we might have expected Wink  But not to be obviously.

Here we go then.  A question back at you.  Only answer the question itself - directly:

In the Present - after all the fallout of Europe and between Regions and WRU - in the now, do Welsh sides now bring more value (and I don't mean money - you and Chunky are obsessed with money) to the Pro12 than the Irish?  You say the Welsh are now trying to be positive about the League and ask me how are the IRFU doing their bit?  That presumes to me that the Welsh have now overtaken us as the Nation selling the league in terms of confidence, enthusiasm, crowds and creating media interest?

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Post by Guest Tue 05 May 2015, 4:17 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Yep, all the problems in Welsh rugby are the fault of IRFU. The Machiavellian IRFU have created those problems in order to keep you down, and us up...


Do you know how tin hatted that sounds?

Your at it again saying things that I have not said to suit your own argument, when have I ever said that all the problems in Wales are the fault of the Irish ? What I have said, is that they way things are at the moment, it suits the Irish, and they would not want to change things, and that it is not everybody else that has held the league back in the past, it has been ALL OF US. It's just the Irish fans on here refuse to accept that.

Try reading your own comments before you post:



"...heaven forbid the others teams managed to get more money and get the depth that the Irish provinces have, we might spoil their party...."

Considering that the only reason the Regions aren't yet on an equal footing with the Provinces is down to the infighting and poor management between WRU and the Regions, I can only assume that you are pointing an accusing finger at the IRFU for causing those particular issues. Especially so since it's the IRFU that you have on trail here!

Do you just argue for the sake of it?

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Post by SecretFly Tue 05 May 2015, 4:19 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:

But on a serious note, the Irish do not want the league to change, it suits them, if, heaven forbid the others teams managed to get more money and get the depth that the  Irish provinces have, we might spoil their party.

Pretty much this. Just look at how they react to the suggestion of a single broadcaster / fixtures spread randomly on weekends. Heaven forbid the final gets played outside Ireland.

I've said the next THREE should be in Italy. Wink

You want to put your money where your mouth is in terms of increasing marketing exposure for the League by agreeing with me?  Or is this just a call to have the final in Wales?

There are more nations in this thing than the Irish and Welsh you know Wink


Last edited by SecretFly on Tue 05 May 2015, 5:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 05 May 2015, 4:26 pm

SecretFly wrote:In the Present - after all the fallout of Europe and between Regions and WRU - in the now, do Welsh sides now bring more value (and I don't mean money - you and Chunky are obsessed with money) to the Pro12 than the Irish? You say the Welsh are now trying to be positive about the League and ask me how are the IRFU doing their bit? That presumes to me that the Welsh have now overtaken us as the Nation selling the league in terms of confidence, enthusiasm, crowds and creating media interest?

Yes, I think we have, you might have the bums on seats numbers, but I would argue that we have by far the biggest armchair supporters, I reckon more people in Wales watch the rugby on tele than they do in Ireland. Thus getting more bang for our buck from the media outlets.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 05 May 2015, 4:27 pm

SecretFly wrote:Or is this just a call to have the final in Wales?

We will never get the final in Wales, none of our stadiums fits the criteria.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 05 May 2015, 4:30 pm

Munchkin wrote:Do you just argue for the sake of it?

No I do not argue for the sake of it, only when people refuse to accept their part in things, we are not going to get much more money out of Wales, but we could get more money from the media and sponsors via our league, but only if we all pull together, not just use the league to suit ourselves.

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Post by VinceWLB Tue 05 May 2015, 4:43 pm

Treviso could be on their way to rebuilding a decent team, Barbieri and De Marchi will be back to them next season and they are touted to sign Castro, as well as re-signing such as Sam Christie Jayden Hayward and Zanni among others things are looking up for them. They could well be better than London Welsh after all!

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Post by beshocked Tue 05 May 2015, 4:46 pm

Treviso needs Parisse more than any player IMO.

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Post by VinceWLB Tue 05 May 2015, 4:52 pm

beshocked wrote:Treviso needs Parisse more than any player IMO.

Given Castro's form of late it would certainly be a wiser investment!

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Post by SecretFly Tue 05 May 2015, 4:54 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:In the Present - after all the fallout of Europe and between Regions and WRU - in the now, do Welsh sides now bring more value (and I don't mean money - you and Chunky are obsessed with money) to the Pro12 than the Irish?  You say the Welsh are now trying to be positive about the League and ask me how are the IRFU doing their bit?  That presumes to me that the Welsh have now overtaken us as the Nation selling the league in terms of confidence, enthusiasm, crowds and creating media interest?

Yes, I think we have, you might have the bums on seats numbers, but I would argue that we have by far the biggest armchair supporters, I reckon more people in Wales watch the rugby on tele than they do in Ireland. Thus getting more bang for our buck from the media outlets.

Thank you, Lord. A direct answer that puts your cards on the table. So you're saying the Welsh potential is hidden behind the numbers watching on TV?

Well if it's true - there's a balance. We bring something, you bring something. It ain't never been talked about in that way before though.

If it ain't true, the stats guys here will do the research on the detail and let you know what their thought are later down the line (Sin Wink )

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Post by Sin é Tue 05 May 2015, 4:56 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Or is this just a call to have the final in Wales?

We will never get the final in Wales, none of our stadiums fits the criteria.

Doesn't the Millenium fit the criteria?
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Post by SecretFly Tue 05 May 2015, 5:01 pm

It should! As should Murrayfield. If these places are good enough for Internationals, then they're good enough for Pro12 Finals.

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Post by Guest Tue 05 May 2015, 5:09 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Do you just argue for the sake of it?

No I do not argue for the sake of it, only when people refuse to accept their part in things, we are not going to get much more money out of Wales, but we could get more money from the media and sponsors via our league, but only if we all pull together, not just use the league to suit ourselves.


If the Provinces are using the league to suit themselves, then suiting themselves is proving a success. Not just for the Provinces, but also for the league and all those in it.
The suit themselves argument is a nonsense of course. The Provinces simply can't afford to adopt a 'take it or leave it' , 'suit yourself' attitude to the league. It's vital that we buy into it, and we have. Otherwise it wouldn't be long before we were struggling at the bottom, and the viability of the league itself brought into question. It only suits us when we work hard to compete at all levels.....

You could get more money out of Wales, and I think you will.

More bums on seats. More shirts sold. More financial rewards for silverware. More sponsors for Regions.

As great as the TV money is, and it will grow, you don't have to wait for it to move forward. It would be a huge mistake to rely on broadcasting revenue alone to gain success.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 05 May 2015, 5:31 pm

SecretFly wrote:It should!  As should Murrayfield.  If these places are good enough for Internationals, then they're good enough for Pro12 Finals.

Do not quote me on this, as I cannot find the criteria on line, only references to it in the rule book, but I am sure international stadiums were not allowed because they were too big and would not be filled.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 05 May 2015, 5:36 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:It should!  As should Murrayfield.  If these places are good enough for Internationals, then they're good enough for Pro12 Finals.

Do not quote me on this, as I cannot find the criteria on line, only references to it in the rule book, but I am sure international stadiums were not allowed because they were too big and would not be filled.
Well that's crap. All four Nations should have the right, without conditions attached (as they all have Stadiums that can cater for a Final), to host a final if they want to and make an offer to. Period. Again, who is sitting in seats at meetings organising this stuff? A LARGE part of the complications of the League is down to the people chosen to sit in seats at meetings to come up with the contractual agreements for the League.


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Post by Notch Tue 05 May 2015, 5:58 pm

SecretFly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:It should!  As should Murrayfield.  If these places are good enough for Internationals, then they're good enough for Pro12 Finals.

Do not quote me on this, as I cannot find the criteria on line, only references to it in the rule book, but I am sure international stadiums were not allowed because they were too big and would not be filled.

Well that's crap.  All four Nations should have the right, without conditions attached (as they all have Stadiums that can cater for a Final), to host a final if they want to and make an offer to.  Period.  Again, who is sitting in seats at meetings organising this stuff?  A LARGE part of the complications of the League is down to the people chosen to sit in seats at meetings to come up with the contractual agreements for the League.


It's crap as it is simply not true. There is nothing officially stopping games taking place in national stadiums. In practice, it is feared that they are too large. For instance, Aviva Stadium for a potential Ospreys vs Glasgow final would be a concern in terms of ticket sales. Or the Millennium Stadium for Munster vs Glasgow. Could a 50000-80000 seater stadium sell-out in a neutral country for the Pro12 final? I don't think so right now.

I think that for this year, 18000 is the perfect capacity for the final and I think they would favour that capacity until it's proven the Pro12 final is enough of a draw. BUT anyone telling you that the rules forbid holding the games in national stadiums is talking out of their hoop. There is a minimum capacity, there is not maximum capacity. I think the goal has to be the eventually rotate the Final around stadiums that size, but it's not yet enough a draw to guarantee filling them, thats all.

There is nothing whatsoever stopping Wales from holding a Final as far as I can see. They a=must already have the hotels requirement for test rugby.
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Post by Guest Tue 05 May 2015, 6:14 pm

I thought it was the criteria for 2 x 5 star hotels, of which Cardiff only has 1 (apparently). Not sure how wide the radius is for the 5 star hotels. Newport has one, but may be too far to satisfy the criteria. Still, a daft rule if you ask me.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue 05 May 2015, 6:24 pm

Notch wrote:

There is nothing whatsoever stopping Wales from holding a Final as far as I can see. They a=must already have the hotels requirement for test rugby.

Presumably what's because test rugby doesn't have such ridiculous stringent eligibility laws.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue 05 May 2015, 6:27 pm

Griff wrote:I thought it was the criteria for 2 x 5 star hotels, of which Cardiff only has 1 (apparently). Not sure how wide the radius is for the 5 star hotels. Newport has one, but may be too far to satisfy the criteria. Still, a daft rule if you ask me.

As I've previously said, there's not 1 team in the Aviva Premiership thatwould pass the ridiculous PRO12 final eligibility rules. What is the point?

Everything that is brought in for the Pro12 is a step backwards not forwards. All designed to suit only 1 nation.

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Post by wayne Tue 05 May 2015, 7:08 pm

Notch wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:It should!  As should Murrayfield.  If these places are good enough for Internationals, then they're good enough for Pro12 Finals.

Do not quote me on this, as I cannot find the criteria on line, only references to it in the rule book, but I am sure international stadiums were not allowed because they were too big and would not be filled.

Well that's crap.  All four Nations should have the right, without conditions attached (as they all have Stadiums that can cater for a Final), to host a final if they want to and make an offer to.  Period.  Again, who is sitting in seats at meetings organising this stuff?  A LARGE part of the complications of the League is down to the people chosen to sit in seats at meetings to come up with the contractual agreements for the League.


It's crap as it is simply not true. There is nothing officially stopping games taking place in national stadiums. In practice, it is feared that they are too large. For instance, Aviva Stadium for a potential Ospreys vs Glasgow final would be a concern in terms of ticket sales. Or the Millennium Stadium for Munster vs Glasgow. Could a 50000-80000 seater stadium sell-out in a neutral country for the Pro12 final? I don't think so right now.

I think that for this year, 18000 is the perfect capacity for the final and I think they would favour that capacity until it's proven the Pro12 final is enough of a draw. BUT anyone telling you that the rules forbid holding the games in national stadiums is talking out of their hoop. There is a minimum capacity, there is not maximum capacity. I think the goal has to be the eventually rotate the Final around stadiums that size, but it's not yet enough a draw to guarantee filling them, thats all.

There is nothing whatsoever stopping Wales from holding a Final as far as I can see. They a=must already have the hotels requirement for test rugby.
Well it is NOT CRAP as Tom McCormack of the organising committee for the Guinness League admitted in 2 seperate conversations he had with a representative of the Ospreys Supporters Club and the correspondence for which is on their website, for this year National Stadiums were outlawed as they didn't think it would attract enough interest, although it could be brought in in future years.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue 05 May 2015, 7:10 pm

wayne wrote:
Notch wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:It should!  As should Murrayfield.  If these places are good enough for Internationals, then they're good enough for Pro12 Finals.

Do not quote me on this, as I cannot find the criteria on line, only references to it in the rule book, but I am sure international stadiums were not allowed because they were too big and would not be filled.

Well that's crap.  All four Nations should have the right, without conditions attached (as they all have Stadiums that can cater for a Final), to host a final if they want to and make an offer to.  Period.  Again, who is sitting in seats at meetings organising this stuff?  A LARGE part of the complications of the League is down to the people chosen to sit in seats at meetings to come up with the contractual agreements for the League.


It's crap as it is simply not true. There is nothing officially stopping games taking place in national stadiums. In practice, it is feared that they are too large. For instance, Aviva Stadium for a potential Ospreys vs Glasgow final would be a concern in terms of ticket sales. Or the Millennium Stadium for Munster vs Glasgow. Could a 50000-80000 seater stadium sell-out in a neutral country for the Pro12 final? I don't think so right now.

I think that for this year, 18000 is the perfect capacity for the final and I think they would favour that capacity until it's proven the Pro12 final is enough of a draw. BUT anyone telling you that the rules forbid holding the games in national stadiums is talking out of their hoop. There is a minimum capacity, there is not maximum capacity. I think the goal has to be the eventually rotate the Final around stadiums that size, but it's not yet enough a draw to guarantee filling them, thats all.

There is nothing whatsoever stopping Wales from holding a Final as far as I can see. They a=must already have the hotels requirement for test rugby.
Well it is NOT CRAP as Tom McCormack of the organising committee for the Guinness League admitted in 2 seperate conversations he had with a representative of the Ospreys Supporters Club and the correspondence for which is on their website, for this year National Stadiums were outlawed as they didn't think it would attract enough interest.

Ouch

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Post by SecretFly Tue 05 May 2015, 8:28 pm

wayne wrote:
Notch wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:It should!  As should Murrayfield.  If these places are good enough for Internationals, then they're good enough for Pro12 Finals.

Do not quote me on this, as I cannot find the criteria on line, only references to it in the rule book, but I am sure international stadiums were not allowed because they were too big and would not be filled.

Well that's crap.  All four Nations should have the right, without conditions attached (as they all have Stadiums that can cater for a Final), to host a final if they want to and make an offer to.  Period.  Again, who is sitting in seats at meetings organising this stuff?  A LARGE part of the complications of the League is down to the people chosen to sit in seats at meetings to come up with the contractual agreements for the League.


It's crap as it is simply not true. There is nothing officially stopping games taking place in national stadiums. In practice, it is feared that they are too large. For instance, Aviva Stadium for a potential Ospreys vs Glasgow final would be a concern in terms of ticket sales. Or the Millennium Stadium for Munster vs Glasgow. Could a 50000-80000 seater stadium sell-out in a neutral country for the Pro12 final? I don't think so right now.

I think that for this year, 18000 is the perfect capacity for the final and I think they would favour that capacity until it's proven the Pro12 final is enough of a draw. BUT anyone telling you that the rules forbid holding the games in national stadiums is talking out of their hoop. There is a minimum capacity, there is not maximum capacity. I think the goal has to be the eventually rotate the Final around stadiums that size, but it's not yet enough a draw to guarantee filling them, thats all.

There is nothing whatsoever stopping Wales from holding a Final as far as I can see. They a=must already have the hotels requirement for test rugby.
Well it is NOT CRAP as Tom McCormack of the organising committee for the Guinness League admitted in 2 seperate conversations he had with a representative of the Ospreys Supporters Club and the correspondence for which is on their website, for this year National Stadiums were outlawed as they didn't think it would attract enough interest, although it could be brought in in future years.

Isn't that what Notch is saying?

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Post by HammerofThunor Tue 05 May 2015, 8:36 pm

No. Notch said there was no ban. Wayne is saying there was a ban.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 05 May 2015, 8:42 pm

Wayne is saying there was a Decision...about this year because they didn't think it would attract enough attention. Notch is saying there is no blanket ban but the numbers aren't right yet to make National Stadiums viable.

That's close enough to the same thing in my book.

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Post by wayne Tue 05 May 2015, 8:44 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:No. Notch said there was no ban. Wayne is saying there was a ban.
And Tom McCormack agrees

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Post by wayne Tue 05 May 2015, 8:47 pm

SecretFly wrote:Wayne is saying there was a Decision...about this year because they didn't think it would attract enough attention.  Notch is saying there is no blanket ban but the numbers aren't right yet to make National Stadiums viable.

That's close enough to the same thing in my book.  
It might be close enough in your book, not in mine.
National Stadiums were excluded this year, Notch and yourself said it was crap when it patently wasn't.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 05 May 2015, 8:48 pm

"For This Year" is no definition of ban. It's a financial decision on 'this year'.

That's what Tom McCormack said. McCormack never said 'Ban' in anything Wayne posted concerning his comments, if we're to keep being ultra pedantic on this one Wink Notch's points are not wide of the mark

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Post by Guest Tue 05 May 2015, 8:49 pm

I agree with Fly. I think you are both saying the same thing Very Happy

I read the answer and question piece from the Ospreys supporters club, but can't remember anything about certain stadiums being ruled out. Can you post that piece here, wayne?

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Post by SecretFly Tue 05 May 2015, 8:50 pm

wayne wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Wayne is saying there was a Decision...about this year because they didn't think it would attract enough attention.  Notch is saying there is no blanket ban but the numbers aren't right yet to make National Stadiums viable.

That's close enough to the same thing in my book.  
It might be close enough in your book, not in mine.
National Stadiums were excluded this year, Notch and yourself said it was crap when it patently wasn't.

Well you're wrong again on both counts...in my book Wink

Firstly you're still wrong about Notch and yourself being close on meaning, in my book. And then go back and look at my 'Crap'. I said it's Crap if National Stadiums are off the agenda - all Nations should have the right to hold finals....... in my book.

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Post by wayne Tue 05 May 2015, 8:56 pm

Munchkin wrote:I agree with Fly. I think you are both saying the same thing Very Happy

I read the answer and question piece from the Ospreys supporters club, but can't remember anything about certain stadiums being ruled out. Can you post that piece here, wayne?
To the first sentence what else would you say, and for the second Grant who had the conversation with Tom, had a second conversation it is on the website and Tom uttered the part that National Stadiums were excluded this year.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 05 May 2015, 9:00 pm

Semantics are having a field day on this site. It's positively become a fetish with posters here.

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Post by Guest Tue 05 May 2015, 9:05 pm

For the first part the something else I could say is something along the lines of 'I don't agree with Fly. You are not saying the same thing.' Marvelous Very Happy

For the second, fair enough. Although I do know McCormack had asked those with any further questions to email him, I didn't know the Ospreys Supporters Club had published the answers on their site.

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Post by InjuredYetAgain Tue 05 May 2015, 9:05 pm

Bloody hell,this thread has wandered away from its initial discussion.
Like it or not, I think the Welsh posters on this thread need to realise that, even though the provinces may rest players too much for their liking, the Irish are disproportionately successful so you can't say that they aren't taking it seriously. Ok, perhapos they could take it [i]more[i] seriously but they seem to be ticking the boxes just now.
In addition, without the Irish crowds, there would be less TV interest = less cash = less ability to be able to afford to keep the top Welsh (and Scottish) players at home.
I cant remember who made the point about BOD not playing in Wales in the last 6 years (he certainly played in Edinburgh as he helped rip our backline a new one on quite a few occasions) but surely you can't argue that this had an adverse effect on attendances?

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Post by Guest Tue 05 May 2015, 9:06 pm

SecretFly wrote:Semantics are having a field day on this site.  It's positively become a fetish with posters here.

I blame the elections Very Happy

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Post by wayne Tue 05 May 2015, 9:07 pm

"A move to a National Stadium in the future is under active discussion" so this year it was ruled out.

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Post by wayne Tue 05 May 2015, 9:15 pm

InjuredYetAgain wrote:Bloody hell,this thread has wandered away from its initial discussion.
Like it or not, I think the Welsh posters on this thread need to realise that, even though the provinces may rest players too much for their liking, the Irish are disproportionately successful so you can't say that they aren't taking it seriously. Ok, perhapos they could take it [i]more[i] seriously but they seem to be ticking the boxes just now.
In addition, without the Irish crowds, there would be less TV interest = less cash = less ability to be able to afford to keep the top Welsh (and Scottish) players at home.
I cant remember who made the point about BOD not playing in Wales in the last 6 years (he certainly played in Edinburgh as he helped rip our backline a new one on quite a few occasions) but surely you can't argue that this had an adverse effect on attendances?
IYA, I have nothing against the Irish provinces resting their players or IRFU resting them, it doesn't stop me going to support my team, it could well stop the casual supporter, they can play whoever they like and yes it does seem to be working for them. It is a few other posters on here who object not me. It was the crap word that got to me, and if you have the memory that I have it rang a bell and I KNEW the CRAP word was CRAP.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 05 May 2015, 9:18 pm

Munchkin wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Semantics are having a field day on this site.  It's positively become a fetish with posters here.

I blame the elections Very Happy

I was going to say something along those lines if I got another knock back on even that comment.

Munch............................... I agree with you. Wink .... and I hope that doesn't get me in trouble.

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Post by InjuredYetAgain Tue 05 May 2015, 9:24 pm

wayne wrote:
InjuredYetAgain wrote:Bloody hell,this thread has wandered away from its initial discussion.
Like it or not, I think the Welsh posters on this thread need to realise that, even though the provinces may rest players too much for their liking, the Irish are disproportionately successful so you can't say that they aren't taking it seriously. Ok, perhapos they could take it [i]more[i] seriously but they seem to be ticking the boxes just now.
In addition, without the Irish crowds, there would be less TV interest = less cash = less ability to be able to afford to keep the top Welsh (and Scottish) players at home.
I cant remember who made the point about BOD not playing in Wales in the last 6 years (he certainly played in Edinburgh as he helped rip our backline a new one on quite a few occasions) but surely you can't argue that this had an adverse effect on attendances?
IYA, I have nothing against the Irish provinces resting their players or IRFU resting them, it doesn't stop me going to support my team, it could well stop the casual supporter, they can play whoever they like and yes it does seem to be working for them. It is a few other posters on here who object not me. It was the crap word that got to me, and if you have the memory that I have it rang a bell and I KNEW the CRAP word was CRAP.
Sorry Wayne. I certainly wasn't having a go at you or anyone else for that matter. I only mentioning Welsh posters because there aren't any other Scottish ones apart from me on this thread.
As regards the casual spectator, I imagine that they would only come out to see the likes of Lomu in his prime. Someone like BOD who could, theoretically anyway, be seen in Wales both in a club and international jersey probably doesn't have the same impact unless it is,say, his last ever game etc

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Post by Guest Tue 05 May 2015, 9:26 pm

SecretFly wrote:Semantics are having a field day on this site.  It's positively become a fetish with posters here.

Unbelievable! You're the king of semantics, 'Fly!

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Post by Guest Tue 05 May 2015, 9:29 pm

InjuredYetAgain wrote:Bloody hell,this thread has wandered away from its initial discussion.
Like it or not, I think the Welsh posters on this thread need to realise that, even though the provinces may rest players too much for their liking, the Irish are disproportionately successful so you can't say that they aren't taking it seriously. Ok, perhapos they could take it [i]more[i] seriously but they seem to be ticking the boxes just now.
In addition, without the Irish crowds, there would be less TV interest = less cash = less ability to be able to afford to keep the top Welsh (and Scottish) players at home.
I cant remember who made the point about BOD not playing in Wales in the last 6 years (he certainly played in Edinburgh as he helped rip our backline a new one on quite a few occasions) but surely you can't argue that this had an adverse effect on attendances?

For Welsh posters on the topic of Ireland not taking the league seriously, read Lord Dowlais. Not sure anyone else holds his opinion on that point, even Chunky! That that I've read anyway.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 05 May 2015, 9:33 pm

I didn't mention 'King' once, Griff??  

Where did I mention King?  

You're saying I'm claiming to be King of Semantics...what Evidence do you have?  

Point out where I said it.  

Did Nigel Wray even say anything about me at all???  No!  He doesn't even know me.  Why would he claim I twist words to suit the semantics of a beautiful argument?  

You're putting words in Wayne's mouth.  All he said was that I talk CRAP.

Griff, just don't accuse me of saying things I didn't say.  It's not nice.  I get offended easily and might have to call a Mod if you keep up this bullying.

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Post by Sin é Tue 05 May 2015, 9:35 pm

It seems Munster supporters have bought most away tickets this season (1200) for Ulster away game in Belfast. (That would not include tickets bought through Ulster / Ticketmaster).

I would have thought that the Leinster v Munster game would have the largest away attendance.


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Post by Guest Tue 05 May 2015, 9:43 pm

SecretFly wrote:I didn't mention 'King' once, Griff??  

Where did I mention King?  

You're saying I'm claiming to be King of Semantics...what Evidence do you have?  

Point out where I said it.  

Did Nigel Wray even say anything about me at all???  No!  He doesn't even know me.  Why would he claim I twist words to suit the semantics of a beautiful argument?  

You're putting words in Wayne's mouth.  All he said was that I talk CRAP.

Griff, just don't accuse me of saying things I didn't say.  It's not nice.  I get offended easily and might have to call a Mod if you keep up this bullying.

Very Happy

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Post by Notch Tue 05 May 2015, 9:49 pm

wayne wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Wayne is saying there was a Decision...about this year because they didn't think it would attract enough attention.  Notch is saying there is no blanket ban but the numbers aren't right yet to make National Stadiums viable.

That's close enough to the same thing in my book.  
It might be close enough in your book, not in mine.
National Stadiums were excluded this year, Notch and yourself said it was crap when it patently wasn't.

I knew that already. That doesn't mean using national stadiums is against any rules.
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Post by Notch Tue 05 May 2015, 9:51 pm

wayne wrote:
Notch wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:It should!  As should Murrayfield.  If these places are good enough for Internationals, then they're good enough for Pro12 Finals.

Do not quote me on this, as I cannot find the criteria on line, only references to it in the rule book, but I am sure international stadiums were not allowed because they were too big and would not be filled.

Well that's crap.  All four Nations should have the right, without conditions attached (as they all have Stadiums that can cater for a Final), to host a final if they want to and make an offer to.  Period.  Again, who is sitting in seats at meetings organising this stuff?  A LARGE part of the complications of the League is down to the people chosen to sit in seats at meetings to come up with the contractual agreements for the League.


It's crap as it is simply not true. There is nothing officially stopping games taking place in national stadiums. In practice, it is feared that they are too large. For instance, Aviva Stadium for a potential Ospreys vs Glasgow final would be a concern in terms of ticket sales. Or the Millennium Stadium for Munster vs Glasgow. Could a 50000-80000 seater stadium sell-out in a neutral country for the Pro12 final? I don't think so right now.

I think that for this year, 18000 is the perfect capacity for the final and I think they would favour that capacity until it's proven the Pro12 final is enough of a draw. BUT anyone telling you that the rules forbid holding the games in national stadiums is talking out of their hoop. There is a minimum capacity, there is not maximum capacity. I think the goal has to be the eventually rotate the Final around stadiums that size, but it's not yet enough a draw to guarantee filling them, thats all.

There is nothing whatsoever stopping Wales from holding a Final as far as I can see. They a=must already have the hotels requirement for test rugby.

Well it is NOT CRAP as Tom McCormack of the organising committee for the Guinness League admitted in 2 seperate conversations he had with a representative of the Ospreys Supporters Club and the correspondence for which is on their website, for this year National Stadiums were outlawed as they didn't think it would attract enough interest, although it could be brought in in future years.

Laugh

...that actually perfectly proves my point! LordDowlias said that national stadiums were not going to be considered, I said that was a load of crap and they only ruled it out in the short term due to difficulty generating interest and they'll probably move to larger stadia eventually if interest increases. And then you come in and posted the actual evidence supporting my statement that I couldn't be bothered looking up myself!

Happy days Very Happy

There is nothing in the published criteria that officially says large stadiums can't host the event- however, any bid would have to demonstrate/guarantee that they can sell out tickets for the game so in practice large stadiums are not being considered at the moment but this is flexible and may change for next year or in subsequent years. It's complete crap to say that the Pro12 have officially ruled out moving the games to national stadiums, I would say it's a long term goal even, but its just going to take a few years to build up to that level.


Last edited by Notch on Tue 05 May 2015, 10:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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