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2 English clubs in the Pro 12??

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Post by Chunky Norwich Sun 03 May 2015, 11:50 am

First topic message reminder :

Being reported today that London Scottish and London Welsh are being lined up to play in the pro12.....if the Italian teams don't pay money owed to the league.

Fantastic news that English teams are already touted as playing in what could be an early British and Irish League. Even if it doesn't happen, these increasingly frequent bits and bobs are only the beginning of what is to come.

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Post by Guest Wed 06 May 2015, 10:14 pm

Can't find anything to suggest the Ospreys decided not to bid before learning of the criteria.

Here's the remainder:

There were many things to take into account in regards to the tenders. A financial commitment in excess of £100,000 by the host stadium/team; two 5 star hotels for the two finalists and the backing by city authorities were just some of the stipulations for tender. We were advised that several clubs did not submit tenders including the Ospreys.

In regards to the advisement that the Ospreys had not tendered for the final, we felt it was important to speak to them about this and get their views as to why no tender was submitted:

Ospreys have advised us they were against the proposal for a change from highest placed team has home advantage to a neutral venue as they felt that the competition was not yet at that stage.

Given their stance on the proposal, they then felt it would be hypocritical to consider making a bid to stage the final, regardless of the team’s positive start to the season as this would put our team in a position where we could lose the home final ‘advantage’.

The financial commitment necessary to host the final is substantial. Whilst Ospreys financial performance has improved, and are now able to make calculated gambles, they don’t consider that they are in a position to take the kind of risk required. It’s not in the best interests of the business to do so.

Any bid for a final at the Liberty would have to be made in conjunction with the Stadium Management Company and Swansea Council. Ospreys advised they will assess the success or not of this year before considering whether it is in the Ospreys interest or not for future years to make a joint bid.

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Post by Guest Wed 06 May 2015, 10:23 pm

wayne wrote:
Munchkin wrote:That simply doesn't ring true, wayne. Are you saying that Ospreys turned down the opportunity to bid before they actually knew what it was they were turning down? Did the Pro12 ask all clubs to submit a bid before actually informing them of the criteria? Seems unlikely.

Did the Ospreys not publish their reasons for not bidding until after the bid was awarded?
Munchkin, what do you think came first, the decision to hold the final at a neutral venue, or the criteria for deciding whether any teams or National Unions would bid for the right to stage that match, and what do you think would be the interval between each, if there was an interval.  

From reading the response of Ospreys again I think they were fully aware of the criteria, and considering their response was posted 27/01/15, a day after the Pro12 released their statement, I would have to conclude that the Ospreys response was well after having first been informed by Pro12 of that criteria. I don't doubt it.
There doesn't appear to be any information which supports the claim that they Ospreys rejected the opportunity to bid due to the criteria.

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Post by wayne Wed 06 May 2015, 10:27 pm

Munchkin wrote:Can't find anything to suggest the Ospreys decided not to bid before learning of the criteria.

Here's the remainder:

There were many things to take into account in regards to the tenders. A financial commitment in excess of £100,000 by the host stadium/team; two 5 star hotels for the two finalists and the backing by city authorities were just some of the stipulations for tender. We were advised that several clubs did not submit tenders including the Ospreys.

In regards to the advisement that the Ospreys had not tendered for the final, we felt it was important to speak to them about this and get their views as to why no tender was submitted:

Ospreys have advised us they were against the proposal for a change from highest placed team has home advantage to a neutral venue as they felt that the competition was not yet at that stage.

Given their stance on the proposal, they then felt it would be hypocritical to consider making a bid to stage the final, regardless of the team’s positive start to the season as this would put our team in a position where we could lose the home final ‘advantage’.

The financial commitment necessary to host the final is substantial. Whilst Ospreys financial performance has improved, and are now able to make calculated gambles, they don’t consider that they are in a position to take the kind of risk required. It’s not in the best interests of the business to do so.

Any bid for a final at the Liberty would have to be made in conjunction with the Stadium Management Company and Swansea Council. Ospreys advised they will assess the success or not of this year before considering whether it is in the Ospreys interest or not for future years to make a joint bid.
Munchkin, of course you wouldn't be able to find anything to suggest they had decided not to bid before the criteria was issued, the general rule is the criteria comes after the main decision is made, and this came months after the neutral venue decision was made.

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Post by Guest Wed 06 May 2015, 10:32 pm

Are you telling me that Pro12 asked all clubs to submit a bid before actually informing them of the criteria?

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Post by wayne Wed 06 May 2015, 10:40 pm

Munchkin wrote:
wayne wrote:
Munchkin wrote:That simply doesn't ring true, wayne. Are you saying that Ospreys turned down the opportunity to bid before they actually knew what it was they were turning down? Did the Pro12 ask all clubs to submit a bid before actually informing them of the criteria? Seems unlikely.

Did the Ospreys not publish their reasons for not bidding until after the bid was awarded?
Munchkin, what do you think came first, the decision to hold the final at a neutral venue, or the criteria for deciding whether any teams or National Unions would bid for the right to stage that match, and what do you think would be the interval between each, if there was an interval.  

From reading the response of Ospreys again I think they were fully aware of the criteria, and considering their response was posted 27/01/15, a day after the Pro12 released their statement, I would have to conclude that the Ospreys response was well after having first been informed by Pro12 of that criteria. I don't doubt it.
There doesn't appear to be any information which supports the claim that they Ospreys rejected the opportunity to bid due to the criteria.
Munchkin, I'm not getting into an argument about this, this will be my last posting on this point, you are wrong, as I put on my previous post the time difference between the outline decision to hold the final at a neutral venue and then the issuing of these criteria was months, the Ospreys statement was issued after the process was finished. They were and there were others who did not leak any information about the ongoing process which was entirely different to the European debacle, I've already given out information I should not have, and personally if you don't believe what I say that is entirely up to you.

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Post by wayne Wed 06 May 2015, 10:43 pm

Munchkin wrote:Are you telling me that Pro12 asked all clubs to submit a bid before actually informing them of the criteria?
This is getting exasperating now, the decision to hold it at a neutral venue came MONTHS BEFORE, the criteria was issued and then the clubs were asked to submit their bids.

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Post by Guest Wed 06 May 2015, 10:52 pm

"The Ospreys statement was issued after the process was finished"

So in other words the Ospreys issued their statement after they were made aware of the criteria.

That's exactly what I have been arguing. They must have been aware of that criteria prior to turning down the offer to bid. It just wouldn't make sense otherwise.

Now if you're claiming that Ospreys turned down the offer to bid based on hearsay, and prior to understanding the criteria, well that's a bit of a leap! Neither does it support any claim that the Ospreys would have turned down the offer to enter a bid, because the Ospreys were aware of the criteria at the time of issuing their reasons, and would not have neglected to mention that they were ineligible anyway.


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Post by Guest Wed 06 May 2015, 11:01 pm

wayne wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Are you telling me that Pro12 asked all clubs to submit a bid before actually informing them of the criteria?
This is getting exasperating now, the decision to hold it at a neutral venue came MONTHS BEFORE, the criteria was issued and then the clubs were asked to submit their bids.

I know the decision was made by Pro12 months before (May2014). What I have been arguing is that Ospreys issued their statement (27/01/15) after they were made aware of the criteria, and they were made aware of the criteria four months before doing so.

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Post by Pot Hale Wed 06 May 2015, 11:41 pm

Munchkin wrote:
wayne wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Are you telling me that Pro12 asked all clubs to submit a bid before actually informing them of the criteria?
This is getting exasperating now, the decision to hold it at a neutral venue came MONTHS BEFORE, the criteria was issued and then the clubs were asked to submit their bids.

I know the decision was made by Pro12 months before (May2014). What I have been arguing is that Ospreys issued their statement (27/01/15) after they were made aware of the criteria, and they were made aware of the criteria four months before doing so.

You're actually agreeing with each other.   Ospreys were opposed to the move from early on.   It wouldn't take much to work out what the criteria were going to be.  An 18,000 capacity stadium was an existing criterion.  And you'd have to expect to come up with a financial guarantee of some sort if you were being given the rights to host.   5 star hotels for the two teams is a complete red herring in my view.  It was all about the financial case, and whether the risk on hosting it was worthwhile.  Ospreys - sensibly - weighed it up and decided to not tender.  End of story.
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Post by Pot Hale Wed 06 May 2015, 11:55 pm

I note that Pro12 said use of a national stadium for next year is under active consideration.

That should make for an interesting bunfight and all sorts of accusations.

"It can't be Lansdowne Road cos youse have had all the finals so far. And they're all crooked shysters anyway." So that's them off the pitch.

"It can't be the Welsh cos you complain too much". So they're toast.

So it's up to the Scots and Italians. Hopefully Rome is the pick - a long weekend in Italy in May would go down nicely.
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Post by Guest Thu 07 May 2015, 12:29 am

Pot Hale wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
wayne wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Are you telling me that Pro12 asked all clubs to submit a bid before actually informing them of the criteria?
This is getting exasperating now, the decision to hold it at a neutral venue came MONTHS BEFORE, the criteria was issued and then the clubs were asked to submit their bids.

I know the decision was made by Pro12 months before (May2014). What I have been arguing is that Ospreys issued their statement (27/01/15) after they were made aware of the criteria, and they were made aware of the criteria four months before doing so.

You're actually agreeing with each other.   Ospreys were opposed to the move from early on.   It wouldn't take much to work out what the criteria were going to be.  An 18,000 capacity stadium was an existing criterion.  And you'd have to expect to come up with a financial guarantee of some sort if you were being given the rights to host.   5 star hotels for the two teams is a complete red herring in my view.  It was all about the financial case, and whether the risk on hosting it was worthwhile.  Ospreys - sensibly - weighed it up and decided to not tender.  End of story.

Yes, we're agreeing on the timing of events, just that I was making the point that Ospreys would have known of the criteria prior to issuing their statement as to why they decided not to bid for hosting the final.
I agree that the two 5* hotels is a bit of a red herring. Unfortunately others see it as evidence of a conspiracy Very Happy


Last edited by Munchkin on Thu 07 May 2015, 12:38 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Guest Thu 07 May 2015, 12:37 am

Pot Hale wrote:I note that Pro12 said use of a national stadium for next year is under active consideration.

That should make for an interesting bunfight and all sorts of accusations.

"It can't be Lansdowne Road cos youse have had all the finals so far.  And they're all crooked shysters anyway."   So that's them off the pitch.

"It can't be the Welsh cos you complain too much".  So they're toast.

So it's up to the Scots and Italians.  Hopefully Rome is the pick - a long weekend in Italy in May would go down nicely.

I would like to see it awarded to Italy also. They were denied hosting the Euro final after being told they would, and so think it would be fitting if they host a Pro12 final. That aside, I would like to see them host a final anyway. Another poster (Fly?) had mentioned that they probably feel a bit isolated from the rest of the nations, and perhaps more should be done to help them feel as included as the rest of us. I think hosting a final would help.

The fact that it's a great place to visit is certainly a bonus though Very Happy

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Post by Guest Thu 07 May 2015, 9:03 am

Yes, Italy please.

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Post by Notch Thu 07 May 2015, 9:06 am

Pot Hale wrote:I note that Pro12 said use of a national stadium for next year is under active consideration.

And yet when I claimed there was nothing stopping national stadiums from being considered in the future I got it in the neck! Smile

Italy would be good, but it will not sell out in a large stadium over there. Maybe a smaller ground in or around Parma or Milan?
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Post by LordDowlais Thu 07 May 2015, 9:08 am

To be honest, now that I have had time to dwell on the subject, I am not bothered where the final goes. I just want a fair criteria, and a criteria that we can ALL see. Why the criteria for this seasons final has not been made public I do not know, but the league's hierarchy must have their reasons.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 07 May 2015, 9:11 am

Notch wrote:And yet when I claimed there was nothing stopping national stadiums from being considered in the future I got it in the neck!

I think you were taking that the wrong way Notch. What was being said was, that national stadiums were not being considered this season. So in affect, none of the Welsh regions would have met this seasons criteria to host the final anyway. So unless they change the criteria for next season, and allow/consider national stadiums, then the final will not be leaving Ireland next year either. Smile

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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 07 May 2015, 9:15 am

LordDowlais wrote: Why the criteria for this seasons final has not been made public I do not know, but the league's hierarchy must have their reasons.

We all know those reasons.

I've actually written to the Pro12 to ask them to divulge the "certain commercial criteria" they speak of.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 07 May 2015, 9:17 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
LordDowlais wrote: Why the criteria for this seasons final has not been made public I do not know, but the league's hierarchy must have their reasons.

We all know those reasons.

I've actually written to the Pro12 to ask them to divulge the "certain commercial criteria" they speak of.

I was trying to be diplomatic Chunk. angel

And have really written to the Pro12 ? Who did you address it to ? Will you then share this info with us ?

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Post by Notch Thu 07 May 2015, 9:19 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Notch wrote:And yet when I claimed there was nothing stopping national stadiums from being considered in the future I got it in the neck!

I think you were taking that the wrong way Notch. What was being said was, that national stadiums were not being considered this season. So in affect, none of the Welsh regions would have met this seasons criteria to host the final anyway.

Thats the exact opposite of what I thought you were saying, which was that national stadiums will not be considered in the future. Doesn't make sense to risk a half-empty massive stadium. But if the Millennium Stadium is eligible to hold the Final, Cardiff City Stadium must be too, right? Same city authority, same hotels nearby etc. etc.

Even at 33,000 it's still a shade on the big side for an event which no-one really knows the appeal of yet. The reason there were only two bids is everyone is waiting to see how it goes. It's in everyones interest to make it a success though.
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Post by LordDowlais Thu 07 May 2015, 9:23 am

Notch wrote: But if the Millennium Stadium is eligible to hold the Final, Cardiff City Stadium must be too, right? Same city authority, same hotels nearby etc. etc.

If the criteria is to be believed then the Cardiff City stadium will not be eligible. There are not two 5 star hotels within the vicinity of the stadium.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 07 May 2015, 9:37 am

LordDowlais wrote:

And have really written to the Pro12 ?
Yes

Who did you address it to ?
Just the pro12 HQ. If I don't get an answer, I'll write to Feehan personally.

Will you then share this info with us ?

Of course. That's if I get anything remotely valuable.

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Post by Irish Londoner Thu 07 May 2015, 9:39 am

Looking at the SWALEC Cup thread can someone explain how everything wrong with Welsh rugby is Ireland and/or the PRO12s fault?

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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 07 May 2015, 9:40 am

Irish Londoner wrote:Looking at the SWALEC Cup thread can someone explain how everything wrong with Welsh rugby is Ireland and/or the PRO12s fault?

It's not. So there's no need for glib, baseless comments like that.

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Post by Pot Hale Thu 07 May 2015, 9:44 am

Funnily enough, I've written to the four regions and Edinburgh asking for their real reasons as to why they didn't bid for hosting the final.
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Post by LordDowlais Thu 07 May 2015, 9:46 am

Irish Londoner wrote:Looking at the SWALEC Cup thread can someone explain how everything wrong with Welsh rugby is Ireland and/or the PRO12s fault?

What is it with the Irish and using sarcasm when they look as though they are losing a debate ? When have anybody on here ever said that the problems in Welsh rugby are the fault of the Irish ?

What we have said is that the failings of the Pro12 are down to ALL of us, but the perfect Irish on here want to dismiss any responsibility for their part in it. We are addressing our issues now, so thank god for the Irish, we would never be able to do it without them, they are not at fault for our problems, they are our saviours. Rolling Eyes

Also, the SWALEC cup thread is just another chance for the holier than though in Wales to have a bash at Pontypridd.


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Post by Pot Hale Thu 07 May 2015, 9:47 am

There has been a few posters on here, including myself, who have given their negative views on the IRFU and the provinces use of the Pro12, including up to this present season.

Leo Cullen's remarks in the last week or so about underestimating the league and management of Leinster players is another indicator of that. Too arrogant and assumption by right of gaining a qualification spot has come back to bite them.

Part of me hopes that Edinburgh and Scarlets overtkake them and put Leinster into the Challenge Cup for next season.

So I don't know why you persist in saying this as if all Irish supporters have the same viewpoint - they don't.

I'd go further and say that references to "internal wrangling" by the Leinster CEO doesn't just refer to Welsh bickering as you might think - it also refers to the divisiveness that occurred between the different unions including the IRFU around the creation of the new European competition.

The Pro12 needs to consider moving out of Dublin to Edinburgh or London.


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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 07 May 2015, 9:57 am

Pot Hale wrote:Funnily enough, I've written to the four regions and Edinburgh asking for their real reasons as to why they didn't bid for hosting the final.

Did the Italians bid then?

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Post by Pot Hale Thu 07 May 2015, 10:01 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:Funnily enough, I've written to the four regions and Edinburgh asking for their real reasons as to why they didn't bid for hosting the final.

Did the Italians bid then?

From what I gather from media reports, only Glasgow and Belfast made bids. However, some reports said that it was Glasgow and Belfast that were shortlisted.

Either way, if Treviso or Zebre bid, I don't speak Italian, so difficult to ask them.
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Post by LordDowlais Thu 07 May 2015, 10:02 am

Pot Hale wrote:Funnily enough, I've written to the four regions and Edinburgh asking for their real reasons as to why they didn't bid for hosting the final.

I could probably give you an answer for that. Perhaps they didn't bid because they knew they had no hope of qualifying for the final. In fact, now that I am on this subject, I reckon the final should be rotated, each country has it each year, then the teams from which ever countries turn it is will have that little extra bit of motivation to get to the final if they know it is going to be held in their country. Ireland one year, Italy the next, then Scotland, then Wales, then back to Ireland and around we go again, I wonder if this will suit the "agenda". Whistle

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 07 May 2015, 10:12 am

Pot Hale wrote:There has been a few posters on here, including myself, who have given their negative views on the IRFU and the provinces use of the Pro12, including up to this present season.

Leo Cullen's remarks in the last week or so about underestimating the league and management of Leinster players is another indicator of that.   Too arrogant and assumption by right of gaining a qualification spot has come back to bite them.

Part of me hopes that Edinburgh and Scarlets overtkake them and put Leinster into the Challenge Cup for next season.

So I don't know why you persist in saying this as if all Irish supporters have the same viewpoint - they don't.

I'd go further and say that references to "internal wrangling" by the Leinster CEO doesn't just refer to Welsh bickering as you might think - it also refers to the divisiveness that occurred between the different unions including the IRFU around the creation of the new European competition.

The Pro12 needs to consider moving out of Dublin to Edinburgh or London.

Pot Hale, let me just say this, and I am being very serious when I say this because I really am thankful, THANK YOU VERY MUCH for this reply. This is all I have wanted on this Pro12 debate, an acceptance where we have ALL gone wrong. This shows how much we all need to pull together, in the same direction. The next step for us I reckon, is to put our league on a higher placing than the scraps the English and French have thrown us from Europe. I say we should treat that competition with the same contempt that they treated us with when negotiating the whole debacle. Lets use it as a development tool for our non internationals and play our best players in OUR league. We can stick two finger up at them together, and see how they like their new European utopia then.

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Post by Pot Hale Thu 07 May 2015, 10:13 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:Funnily enough, I've written to the four regions and Edinburgh asking for their real reasons as to why they didn't bid for hosting the final.

I could probably give you an answer for that. Perhaps they didn't bid because they knew they had no hope of qualifying for the final. In fact, now that I am on this subject, I reckon the final should be rotated, each country has it each year, then the teams from which ever countries turn it is will have that little extra bit of motivation to get to the final if they know it is going to be held in their country. Ireland one year, Italy the next, then Scotland, then Wales, then back to Ireland and around we go again, I wonder if this will suit the "agenda". Whistle

I don't believe that's true. For a start, Ospreys would certainly have a hope of qualifying for the final. Secondly, it's a commercial opportunity. All 12 clubs had a chance to tender for hosting a Destination Final. The other three Welsh regions and Edinburgh could have put a commercial package together to host it, with the possibility of Ospreys or Glasgow being in the final - a realistic prospect.

I would like to know if these five clubs opposed the decision, and their reasons for not bidding. I'm curious why it's only Ospreys and their supporters group who seem to have made public statements on this.
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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 07 May 2015, 10:18 am

Why would a club like the Scarlets bid? Where would they hold it? What's in it for them?

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 07 May 2015, 10:18 am

The thing is for me though PH, the regions/provinces/clubs should not be bidding for the final, that process should be down to the unions, each union should bid for the final, not the teams.

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Post by Irish Londoner Thu 07 May 2015, 10:25 am

PH - PRO12 is based in Dublin for the same reason the HEC was, the B & I Lions and many other companies are - an extremely advantageous tax regime compared to being based in the UK - not for any ulterior motive in terms of control - I'm confident that if ,say, the Scottish Parliament ever gave rugby clubs and related organisations tax-free status there, the PRO12 wold move in a heartbeat.

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Post by Pot Hale Thu 07 May 2015, 10:27 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:There has been a few posters on here, including myself, who have given their negative views on the IRFU and the provinces use of the Pro12, including up to this present season.

Leo Cullen's remarks in the last week or so about underestimating the league and management of Leinster players is another indicator of that.   Too arrogant and assumption by right of gaining a qualification spot has come back to bite them.

Part of me hopes that Edinburgh and Scarlets overtkake them and put Leinster into the Challenge Cup for next season.

So I don't know why you persist in saying this as if all Irish supporters have the same viewpoint - they don't.

I'd go further and say that references to "internal wrangling" by the Leinster CEO doesn't just refer to Welsh bickering as you might think - it also refers to the divisiveness that occurred between the different unions including the IRFU around the creation of the new European competition.

The Pro12 needs to consider moving out of Dublin to Edinburgh or London.

Pot Hale, let me just say this, and I am being very serious when I say this because I really am thankful, THANK YOU VERY MUCH for this reply. This is all I have wanted on this Pro12 debate, an acceptance where we have ALL gone wrong. This shows how much we all need to pull together, in the same direction. The next step for us I reckon, is to put our league on a higher placing than the scraps the English and French have thrown us from Europe. I say we should treat that competition with the same contempt that they treated us with when negotiating the whole debacle. Lets use it as a development tool for our non internationals and play our best players in OUR league. We can stick two finger up at them together, and see how they like their new European utopia then.

I have said it already in this thread in a post replying to you about IRFU/Provinces. I don't agree with your view about using best players because it's not possible to do that all season. I did a small comparison recently that I posted in another thread about playing times for English, Welsh and Irish international players. All didn't play in their leagues for the whole season - 50-60% of the matches.

You constantly use the phrase "the scraps the English and French have thrown us from Europe". Yet without that money, none of the clubs would survive. The new deal is the new deal. At a certain point, people have to accept that, and plan futures accordingly. the Pro12 needs to change - but not the way you're proposing.
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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 07 May 2015, 10:29 am

Pot Hale wrote: At a certain point, people have to accept that, and plan futures accordingly.  g.

That's exactly what I am doing. But I get slated for it. Because the future I paint is not what the Irish want to hear.

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Post by Pot Hale Thu 07 May 2015, 10:34 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:Why would a club like the Scarlets bid? Where would they hold it? What's in it for them?

As I said, I'd like to know if they were opposed to the change to a Destination Final, and reasons why they agreed/disagreed with the decision.

I also want to know why they did't bid. Why decide to allow bids from all 12 clubs if 10 of them were not interested from the outset - just a waste of time surely?
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Post by Pot Hale Thu 07 May 2015, 10:36 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Pot Hale wrote: At a certain point, people have to accept that, and plan futures accordingly.  g.

That's exactly what I am doing. But I get slated for it. Because the future I paint is not what the Irish want to hear.

The Irish? The whole of the population or a few posters on here who disagree with your view of the future of the league?
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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 07 May 2015, 10:38 am

Pot Hale wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:Why would a club like the Scarlets bid? Where would they hold it? What's in it for them?

As I said, I'd like to know if they were opposed to the change to a Destination Final, and reasons why they agreed/disagreed with the decision.

I also want to know why they did't bid.  Why decide to allow bids from all 12 clubs if 10 of them were not interested from the outset - just a waste of time surely?  

Why would they put in a bid? Given that the eligibility rules totally exclude them from the entire process.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 07 May 2015, 10:39 am

Pot Hale wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:Why would a club like the Scarlets bid? Where would they hold it? What's in it for them?

As I said, I'd like to know if they were opposed to the change to a Destination Final, and reasons why they agreed/disagreed with the decision.

I also want to know why they did't bid.  Why decide to allow bids from all 12 clubs if 10 of them were not interested from the outset - just a waste of time surely?  

It should not be down to the clubs to bid, it should be down to the unions, why are the clubs being made to bid ? If we cannot have our unions bidding,then perhaps we should rotate the final to each country ever year. I reckon the WRU would have made a good fist of hosting the final in Cardiff, look what they did for JDIII.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 07 May 2015, 10:43 am

LordDowlais wrote:
It should not be down to the clubs to bid, it should be down to the unions, why are the clubs being made to bid ?

Disagree with that. The less Union involvement the better. They only cause mess.

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Post by Pot Hale Thu 07 May 2015, 10:44 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:Why would a club like the Scarlets bid? Where would they hold it? What's in it for them?

As I said, I'd like to know if they were opposed to the change to a Destination Final, and reasons why they agreed/disagreed with the decision.

I also want to know why they did't bid.  Why decide to allow bids from all 12 clubs if 10 of them were not interested from the outset - just a waste of time surely?  

Why would they put in a bid? Given that the eligibility rules totally exclude them from the entire process.

I'm not sure why you are asking me those questions at this point. I'm not aware of any eligibility rules that excluded them. Although that does link to my query about why run a process for 12 if only 2 were interested. Once I get responses from the clubs I'd probably be in a better position to answer them.
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Post by LordDowlais Thu 07 May 2015, 10:44 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
It should not be down to the clubs to bid, it should be down to the unions, why are the clubs being made to bid ?

Disagree with that. The less Union involvement the better. They only cause mess.

The old regime yes, but we have a new king now, long live the king. king

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Post by Pot Hale Thu 07 May 2015, 10:45 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
It should not be down to the clubs to bid, it should be down to the unions, why are the clubs being made to bid ?

Disagree with that. The less Union involvement the better. They only cause mess.

I disagree with both of you.  Neither clubs or unions should dominate.  The mix is better.

The WRU have shown the Welsh regions that properly marketed event can be successful with the recent matches in the Millennium. Ospreys have improved their attendances well this season. And Ulster have been able to sell out the final.

I'd like to see what the SRU and FIR can do and bring to the table.


Last edited by Pot Hale on Thu 07 May 2015, 10:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 07 May 2015, 10:48 am

LordDowlais wrote:

The old regime yes, but we have a new king now, long live the king. king

Part of the problem with the pro12 is that it's separate mechanisms are so diverse. So when you have a crunch tie being officiated by a person that is employed by the same organisation as one set of players but not the other, it means the whole process is open to questioning.

Of course if it all evened out and all clubs were owned by Unions it would be ok. But they're not. So it doesn't

Maybe the answer is to chuck the Welsh out so they can start a competition with someone else.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 07 May 2015, 10:49 am

Pot Hale wrote: The mix is better.

The mix doesn't work. It's too lop sided. It has to be one or the other. What other top flight rugby competitions have a mix?

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 07 May 2015, 10:50 am

Pot Hale wrote:Neither clubs or unions should dominate

I am not talking about domination, I am talking about each union putting a bid in for their country. If you like, you could then have each Branch/region/club putting a bid in with their union to host it at their ground. But that is going too far. I reckon it should be done country to country, not club to club. Wales and Ireland have twice the amount of opportunities than that of Scotland and Italy for getting the final. Is that fair ?

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Post by Pot Hale Thu 07 May 2015, 10:51 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Pot Hale wrote: The mix is better.

The mix doesn't work. It's too lop sided. It has to be one or the other. What other top flight rugby competitions have a mix?

The ERCC has a mix of unions and clubs.
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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 07 May 2015, 10:51 am

LordDowlais wrote: Wales and Ireland have twice the amount of opportunities than that of Scotland and Italy for getting the final.

No they don't.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 07 May 2015, 10:51 am

Pot Hale wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Pot Hale wrote: The mix is better.

The mix doesn't work. It's too lop sided. It has to be one or the other. What other top flight rugby competitions have a mix?

The ERCC has a mix of unions and clubs.

Any bread and butter leagues?

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