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Ten Conclusions from Mayweather - Manny !!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 03 May 2015, 5:57 pm

First topic message reminder :

1. All the posters who hate Mayweather had the fight close or thought Manny won.....

2. If you couldn't give Manny the victory and you're a fan then it was a stinker......

3. Mayweather has just outboxed the 3rd best fighter on the planet........

4. The Filipino needs to get back onto the shakes.......

5. Shoulder injury shows him to be the classless guy I always thought he was deep down....

6. Mayweather isn't going to get credit off certain individuals no matter what he does........

7. If 606v2 radio had Manny 116-112......I'll never moan about Watt and Halling again...

8. It didn't live up to the hype.............Very few fights ever do..

9. Roach isn't the genius he thinks he is !!

10. If Floyd isn't Top 10 in most lists he must be very close !!.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 04 May 2015, 4:30 pm

milkyboy wrote:How does a fight with two guys considered past their best end the debate on who wins in their primes. It might give an indication, but it depends how much each has slipped. You can make a good case that the smarter defensive fighter is better suited to fighting past prime than the all action guy.

As i've said all along, I always reckoned that floyd would beat manny whenever they fought, but i don't think what we witnessed at the weekend rubber stamps it as a certainty.

Leonard pulled off the win against hagler (apologies for mentioning it) when both were past their best, I'm not sure i'd pick him to have won 4 years earlier. An old hopkins avenged an old jones. I'm not saying the declines are comparable, I'm saying it doesn't actually take much of a slip on one side or the other to dramatically alter the result and that's true of all top class sport. The margins are fine.

We do know one thing that the p4p number 1 beat the number 3 comprehensively..

We also know that happens once every blue moon............

So let's give credit where it's due........Right ??? thumbsup

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Post by milkyboy on Mon 04 May 2015, 4:48 pm

I know you love your p4p rankings but they show what someone has achieved not necessarily where they're currently at.

You picked manny to win, partly because floyd was old. You had your excuses lined up if you needed them. If manny had won you'd be saying it was because floyd was old and it doesn't detract from his legacy.

I would probably say the same thing actually. I don't think this adds that much to floyd's legacy for me personally. But then I hold his legacy in pretty high regard anyway. Not much different to how you see it actually.

Don't like the guy but big admirer of his ability, the Alvarez display was punch perfect.

I have no agenda, its a good win obviously but when it was made we all thought it was 5 years too late, and unlike some I'm not altering my perspective on it post fight. Particularly when the fight didn't show either at their best... In my view.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 04 May 2015, 5:05 pm

You're good at telling me what I think..........

But I thought Manny's workrate would be too much for a 38 yr old..........

Said before the fight If Manny wins he goes Top 15 in my list..

If this win isn't legacy enhancing.......GGG hasn't got one yet...

If this win isn't legacy enhancing then there has been about three meaningful fights in Boxing in the last 25 years........ Rolling Eyes

and I'm the one with the agenda..

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 04 May 2015, 5:08 pm

That fabled p4p list has Froch, GGG and Kovalev at 6, 7 and 8 so think we need to take it with a pinch of salt.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 04 May 2015, 5:22 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:That fabled p4p list has Froch, GGG and Kovalev at 6, 7 and 8 so think we need to take it with a pinch of salt.

Nope..................Third best fighter on the planet..........Rigo is 4/5......So 6, 7, 8 is irrelevant !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Notice you left Rigo out of your post..................Naughty boy..

Bit like saying Robbo is a s**t number 1 because 4,5,6 is weak...........

It's a great win...............Like with Alvarez plenty were picking the other guy..


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Post by Atila on Mon 04 May 2015, 5:28 pm

Be interesting to see what the PPV numbers will be for Floyd's next fight. Considering that many of those who bought into the hype and paid money to see this fight were disappointed, I'm wondering how many will stump up again to see him with a so called lesser opponent.

Even before this weekends fight Floyd's PPV numbers were reportedly falling slightly.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 04 May 2015, 5:29 pm

If they promote his next fight as his last............

he'll probably be okay..

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 04 May 2015, 5:31 pm

It is very relevant in highlighting that the sport is in a transitional period with the old guard having not been fully replaced yet, Gonzalez is the only guy in the top 10 who's not in his 30's. The guys lower down not being of the highest quality does detract from all this p4p rubbish.

Had pound for pound lists existed in Robinsons day I can guarantee Truss that the top twenty would be full of quality.

It's a good win just like Alvarez was a good win but not a great win.

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Post by milkyboy on Mon 04 May 2015, 6:18 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You're good at telling me what I think..........

But I thought Manny's workrate would be too much for a 38 yr old..........

Said before the fight If Manny wins he goes Top 15 in my list..

If this win isn't legacy enhancing.......GGG hasn't got one yet...

If this win isn't legacy enhancing then there has been about three meaningful fights in Boxing in the last 25 years........ Rolling Eyes

and I'm the one with the agenda..

Someone needs to tell you what your thinking fella, you're getting too old to remember yourself Wink

Given you thought manny' would win on work rate and it turned out his work rate was risible, presumably you think he must be the one on the slide now then?

I said it didn't do much for floyd's legacy for me... I don't doubt others will view it differently. But I'm not one of those who has him outside my top 50 all time p4p.. Could I ever be arsed to do one... In the first place. I didn't need convincing... If he isn't top 10 he's knocking hard on the door.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Mon 04 May 2015, 7:40 pm

Nothing made up about Manny's injury.

Would definitely like to see a free to air rematch or a £9.95 ppv

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 04 May 2015, 7:52 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:Nothing made up about Manny's injury.

Would definitely like to see a free to air rematch or a £9.95 ppv

Why did he not disclose it on his medical documentation then?

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Post by Derbymanc on Mon 04 May 2015, 7:58 pm

Or how did his management team mess up getting the right documentation.

Sounds like a ready made excuse to me from a team that didn't believe there man could win, probably told him which is why he was so down.

'But Arum said Top Rank filed incorrect paperwork about the injury, and the Nevada commission ruled against the request for a shot.

Francisco Aguilar, chairman of the Nevada Athletic Commission, said the Pacquiao team did not disclose the injury until Saturday night, so the requests for permission to take the shot and to have a personal doctor in Pacquiao's corner were denied.

"We were not aware of his injury until tonight at 6:30," said Aguilar, who made the ruling. "The medications he was taking were disclosed on his medical questionnaire, but not the actual injury. ... This isn't our first fight. This is our business. There is a process, and when you try to screw with the process, it's not going to work for you.'

Taken from http://goo.gl/bNBr6q

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Post by Strongback on Mon 04 May 2015, 7:59 pm

How many fighters in the Top 10 haven't been in a great fight?

5 years too late, many said this before the fight and that's how it panned out.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Mon 04 May 2015, 8:02 pm

What the f is your point Hammer?

USADA confirmed they were contacted about injury, MRI showed rotary cuff injury. Manny's camp badly hampered.

Don't want to take anything from Floyd's brilliance, but was thinking during fight Manny was well below par, his volume a fraction of it's normal. So Manny unable to swarm which could have ruffled Floyd. That said Floydy does control range rather well.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 04 May 2015, 8:07 pm

Injury or not dodgy Phil isn't getting a rematch and will have to reconcile himself with the fact....

Tough titties...

Strongy I'm not wasting time arguing with a sponge who has Pedrosa and Steve Collins higher...

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Post by 3fingers on Mon 04 May 2015, 8:07 pm

I think you only need to watch Manny vs Mosley to see how a 2010 version of manny would do against Floyd. The signs were there that when's he's made to think his pace slows. Manny looked good circa 2010, providing fighters came to fight with him. Despite what some might say, Manny's prime was at the lighter weights, though, undoubtedly, his reputation was at its highest among the general public around 2010.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 04 May 2015, 8:12 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:What the f is your point Hammer?

USADA confirmed they were contacted about injury, MRI showed rotary cuff injury. Manny's camp badly hampered.

Don't want to take anything from Floyd's brilliance, but was thinking during fight Manny was well below par, his volume a fraction of it's normal. So Manny unable to swarm which could have ruffled Floyd. That said Floydy does control range rather well.

The point is simple, the injury is an excuse and nothing more, were it anything serious they wouldn't have left it so late to sort the paperwork out nor would they have screwed that up. Strange how we hear nothing about this injury until he's been outboxed and in the process been left embarrassed and how we were forever being told how well his training was going, any issue would have been very minor.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 04 May 2015, 8:19 pm

Hearns broke his hand and begged Steward not to say anything so nothing would detract from Marv's moment.....

Not that it had any impact on the result...Dye was cast after 20 seconds..

Still had class though..

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Post by Marlonz on Mon 04 May 2015, 8:51 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:What the f is your point Hammer?

USADA confirmed they were contacted about injury, MRI showed rotary cuff injury. Manny's camp badly hampered.

Don't want to take anything from Floyd's brilliance, but was thinking during fight Manny was well below par, his volume a fraction of it's normal. So Manny unable to swarm which could have ruffled Floyd. That said Floydy does control range rather well.

I was saying to my wife how stiff Manny looked when he was warming up with Freddie before doing his ring walk. He threw a right hook and almost tripped. Very strange. He really did look flat, even during the moments that Floyd was'nt in position to control the action. The 4th round looked like it might have been the turning point, but even then, Manny did'nt press the opportunity. I felt he let Floyd off the hook there.

Floyd won, but I thought it was closer than the scorecards suggested and I did'nt see this masterclass some are speaking of. Still left feeling unsatisfied. Also, I find it interesting that Mayweather Sr was saying before the fight that Pac was a shot fighter. Surely Floyd's performance should have been as good if not better than the Alvarez fight. But it was'nt.

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Post by milkyboy on Mon 04 May 2015, 9:56 pm

People getting a bit literal about what's said before a fight. Nobody admits to an injury before a fight. Why offer up a potential psychological advantage to your opponent.

If its really bad they pull out, if they think they can still fight at close to their best they soldier on. If there's a career high payday that might go up in smoke, they maybe soldier on when they know they shouldn't... Barker sturm anyone? Cotto martinez?

In addition, for all the advances in the treatment and understanding of injuries there's still a fair bit of 'it'll be alright on the night... the adrenaline will see me through' self kidology going on with sportsmen. Especially in the most macho of sports.

I've no idea if he was crocked or not... Or how badly. How many fighters carry injuries of some description into the ring? Most I imagine. Ultimately, he chose to get in the ring and he should have left his excuses in the dressing room.

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Post by milkyboy on Mon 04 May 2015, 10:00 pm

Marlonz wrote:
Herman Jaeger wrote:What the f is your point Hammer?

USADA confirmed they were contacted about injury, MRI showed rotary cuff injury. Manny's camp badly hampered.

Don't want to take anything from Floyd's brilliance, but was thinking during fight Manny was well below par, his volume a fraction of it's normal. So Manny unable to swarm which could have ruffled Floyd. That said Floydy does control range rather well.

I was saying to my wife how stiff Manny looked when he was warming up with Freddie before doing his ring walk. He threw a right hook and almost tripped. Very strange. He really did look flat, even during the moments that Floyd was'nt in position to control the action. The 4th round looked like it might have been the turning point, but even then, Manny did'nt press the opportunity. I felt he let Floyd off the hook there.

Floyd won, but I thought it was closer than the scorecards suggested and I did'nt see this masterclass some are speaking of. Still left feeling unsatisfied. Also, I find it interesting that Mayweather Sr was saying before the fight that Pac was a shot fighter. Surely Floyd's performance should have been as good if not better than the Alvarez fight. But it was'nt.

They have a special relationship, marlon

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Post by Scottrf on Tue 05 May 2015, 10:28 am

Atila wrote:Be interesting to see what the PPV numbers will be for Floyd's next fight. Considering that many of those who bought into the hype and paid money to see this fight were disappointed, I'm wondering how many will stump up again to see him with a so called lesser opponent..
Where have I heard that before?

Oh yeah, after every Floyd PPV. In fact after every PPV in general.

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Tue 05 May 2015, 10:35 am

Pac was injured, you can't fake an MRI, he is also out for 9-12 months

I still don't think the result would have been different, even if the fight might have been closer.

Props to Pac for fighting with a horrendous injury, no way you can postpone that fight, but was probably a stupid decision

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Post by AdamT on Tue 05 May 2015, 10:37 am

BoxingFan88 wrote:Pac was injured, you can't fake an MRI, he is also out for 9-12 months

I still don't think the result would have been different, even if the fight might have been closer.

Props to Pac for fighting with a horrendous injury, no way you can postpone that fight, but was probably a stupid decision

Well why the heck did he not declare it earlier. think of all his fans who support him and the people that placed their hard earned money on him.

Joke!

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Post by Scottrf on Tue 05 May 2015, 10:37 am

The reason he didn't throw more is because he thought he was winning not an injury, he said it himself. He's not a liar, he's the perfect moral citizen as we're constantly reminded.

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Post by Scottrf on Tue 05 May 2015, 10:39 am

AdamT wrote:Well why the heck did he not declare it earlier. think of all his fans who support him and the people that placed their hard earned money on him.

Joke!
And give a major psychological and tactical edge? Don't be so naive please. When do you see a boxer ever make an injury public before the bout?

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Post by AdamT on Tue 05 May 2015, 10:47 am

Scottrf wrote:
AdamT wrote:Well why the heck did he not declare it earlier. think of all his fans who support him and the people that placed their hard earned money on him.

Joke!
And give a major psychological and tactical edge? Don't be so naive please. When do you see a boxer ever make an injury public before the bout?

Fair enuff, then why make excuses after. Sour grapes is what it is.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Tue 05 May 2015, 11:48 am

If they're now saying it's torn ligaments, then can the MRI confirm that?

If so , that would have been a big problem for Manny.

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Post by AdamT on Tue 05 May 2015, 11:49 am

f..k Manny and Floyd. How does everyone see the Canelo and Kirkland fight going.

Should have some excitement at least. Expect Canelo to win with a bit to spare.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Tue 05 May 2015, 12:11 pm

Now I've never seen Kirkland but after a quick glance on youtube you've got to be looking forward to this one. He looks strong Kirkland and can bag a bit.

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Post by AdamT on Tue 05 May 2015, 12:11 pm

Yeah mate should be a good fight.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Tue 05 May 2015, 12:27 pm

Could be a fairly one sided beat down, Alvarez is the bigger, more skilful and more resilient of the pair and his variety of punches will be too much for Kirkland.

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Post by AdamT on Tue 05 May 2015, 12:28 pm

Optimistic Kirkland can at least put on a decent showing. No doubt on the winner and I expect a stoppage.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Tue 05 May 2015, 12:41 pm

Canelo looks to have the sturdier chin and that could be the difference. Hoping for some good action while it lasts.

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Post by AdamT on Tue 05 May 2015, 12:42 pm

It should be a good fight

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Tue 05 May 2015, 1:13 pm

AdamT wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
AdamT wrote:Well why the heck did he not declare it earlier. think of all his fans who support him and the people that placed their hard earned money on him.

Joke!
And give a major psychological and tactical edge? Don't be so naive please. When do you see a boxer ever make an injury public before the bout?

Fair enuff, then why make excuses after. Sour grapes is what it is.

Having a torn rotator cuff is an excuse is it?

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Post by Guest on Tue 05 May 2015, 1:16 pm

BoxingFan88 wrote:
AdamT wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
AdamT wrote:Well why the heck did he not declare it earlier. think of all his fans who support him and the people that placed their hard earned money on him.

Joke!
And give a major psychological and tactical edge? Don't be so naive please. When do you see a boxer ever make an injury public before the bout?

Fair enuff, then why make excuses after. Sour grapes is what it is.

Having a torn rotator cuff is an excuse is it?
I've had one, it's not nice...Floyd used it as his excuse for the poor performance in the first Castillo fight...if it's good enough for Floyd.....

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Post by AdamT on Tue 05 May 2015, 1:18 pm

Manny should get a rematch. He done good with one arm. Class wee fighter aint he.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 05 May 2015, 1:25 pm

1. The fight was predicatably redundant.
2-10. See above.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Tue 05 May 2015, 1:27 pm

BoxingFan88 wrote:
AdamT wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
AdamT wrote:Well why the heck did he not declare it earlier. think of all his fans who support him and the people that placed their hard earned money on him.

Joke!
And give a major psychological and tactical edge? Don't be so naive please. When do you see a boxer ever make an injury public before the bout?

Fair enuff, then why make excuses after. Sour grapes is what it is.

Having a torn rotator cuff is an excuse is it?

Yes it is when it's clearly untrue, Mayweather using it as an excuse in the first Castillo fight was BS just like Pacquiao trying to use it as an excuse now is BS, he may have picked up an injury during the fight but he didn't go into it with a serious injury.

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Post by Guest on Tue 05 May 2015, 1:30 pm

Number eleven - you've all wasted enough time on this debacle. Some of you will never get those years back...move on!

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Post by AdamT on Tue 05 May 2015, 1:37 pm

DAVE667 wrote:Number eleven - you've all wasted enough time on this debacle. Some of you will never get those years back...move on!

agree with this. I get caught up to much on the whole Manny, floyd debate.

As far as I'm concerned it is done.

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Tue 05 May 2015, 1:45 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
BoxingFan88 wrote:
AdamT wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
AdamT wrote:Well why the heck did he not declare it earlier. think of all his fans who support him and the people that placed their hard earned money on him.

Joke!
And give a major psychological and tactical edge? Don't be so naive please. When do you see a boxer ever make an injury public before the bout?

Fair enuff, then why make excuses after. Sour grapes is what it is.

Having a torn rotator cuff is an excuse is it?

Yes it is when it's clearly untrue, Mayweather using it as an excuse in the first Castillo fight was BS just like Pacquiao trying to use it as an excuse now is BS, he may have picked up an injury during the fight but he didn't go into it with a serious injury.

but he did and there is documentation to prove it, you can't believe whatever you want, but the cold hard facts are the only truth I believe.

He was also refused pain killing medication on the day of the fight despite it being approved by USADA

It doesn't matter anyway, the result wouldn't have been different

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Post by Guest on Tue 05 May 2015, 1:50 pm

BoxingFan88 wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:
BoxingFan88 wrote:
AdamT wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
AdamT wrote:Well why the heck did he not declare it earlier. think of all his fans who support him and the people that placed their hard earned money on him.

Joke!
And give a major psychological and tactical edge? Don't be so naive please. When do you see a boxer ever make an injury public before the bout?

Fair enuff, then why make excuses after. Sour grapes is what it is.

Having a torn rotator cuff is an excuse is it?

Yes it is when it's clearly untrue, Mayweather using it as an excuse in the first Castillo fight was BS just like Pacquiao trying to use it as an excuse now is BS, he may have picked up an injury during the fight but he didn't go into it with a serious injury.

but he did and there is documentation to prove it, you can't believe whatever you want, but the cold hard facts are the only truth I believe.
The cold hard facts are that this fight will not trouble the boxing scribes in years to come. You shouldn't let it trouble you either. Neither fighter wants a rematch and no f*cker in their right mind would sit through that turgid affair again. Bet you a pound to a pint of pi$$ Floyd won't trouble himself by watching it again, not when there are women waiting to degrade themselves for his viewing pleasure

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Tue 05 May 2015, 1:52 pm

What documentation?

The cold hard facts are these, were he seriously injured he would either have pulled out or notified the commission of an such injury, he did neither so it ultimately becomes a false excuse.

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Post by AdamT on Tue 05 May 2015, 2:00 pm

I am only interested in roger Mayweathers take,

"He whopped his a.s and I said he would whoop that Mutha f..ers as. anytime. He don't know s..t about boxing."




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Post by Derbymanc on Tue 05 May 2015, 2:07 pm

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/sports/05/05/15/look-pacquiaos-pre-fight-medical-questionnaire

Medical questionnaire that Manny filled out, no mention of the injury but mention of the painkillers (gotta believe a lot of older boxers use pain killers though)

Also, fancy relying on someone else in the biggest fight of your career to let the relevant people know.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 05 May 2015, 3:00 pm

Like Haye's toe and Chelsea being a stinking soccer team...........

All that matters is results.............

I think JMM beat Manny at least three times............But I count Manny's 2-1-1 record vs JMM toward his Top 15/20 position in my list..

If he was injured more fool him..........

It's a results orientated business..........

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Post by AdamT on Tue 05 May 2015, 3:04 pm

Hate when Castillo is mentioned. Fair enough Floyd in my opinion didn't do enough that night, so he has one less.

Manny lost at least 3 times to Marquez, possibly all 4.

It is a result business and in 25 years time all that will matter is Floyd has that W against manny.

I rank Manny top 20-25

floyd sits top 10 for me.

If he had the opponents, he would easily be top 5.

He makes good fighters look really average.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 05 May 2015, 3:06 pm

AdamT wrote:

If he had the opponents, he would easily be top 5.


Do you mean 'had' or 'fought'.

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