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PGA Tour: The Players. Fifth Major? No! But Who Cares?: Notes from the Ballwasher

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PGA Tour: The Players. Fifth Major? No! But Who Cares?: Notes from the Ballwasher Empty PGA Tour: The Players. Fifth Major? No! But Who Cares?: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer Tue 05 May 2015, 8:29 pm

1).This year's Players Championship has rather crept up on the golfing world, coming as it does immediately following the WGC Match Play action.
The Tour switches back from Harding Park in San Francisco to PGA Tour HQ in the Jacksonville, Florida, area: Different grasses, different course design principles, and a very different climate, with warm weather expected and showers possible through the weekend.

2).The annual debate about "Fifth Major" status seems to dim just a shade every year, while no-one can ignore the quality of the field (48 of the Top 50) or the familiarity with Pete Dye's TPC Sawgrass course, like it or loathe it. I'll never like the sh1t or bust nature of #17, never a Championship-worthy hole in my (dog-eared) book, but that doesn't mean it's not compulsive viewing!

3).And compulsive viewing was something that was missing last week at the Match Play.
64 matches and there were certainly some good ones, probably the highest quality delivered by Alex Levy and Joost Luiten (sorry Golf Channel), Levy's 66 being trumped by Luiten's 64. But the TV broadcasts were flat, the commentators trying to figure things out as they went along and sometimes getting it wrong. Perhaps the most stupid part of the entire enterprise was the tee-time schedule on Saturday, potentially a mess for the Tours but possibly also a blessing in disguise.
For reasons unknown, the four quarter finals were delayed such that the final tie between Casey & McIlroy left the house at 4.00 p.m. in the clear knowledge that sunset was at 8.00 p.m.. Needless to say it went extra holes and had to resume Sunday morning with temps in the 40's and Casey looking like death warmed up. In the circumstances, one wonders whether his sleepless Saturday night caused by food poisoning would have allowed him to play a semi-final had he won.
Even Rory thought that scheduling was unusual:
"I'm not sure it's ever really happened before, with the guys pushing tee times back so late, this obviously could have been avoided if we went off a little earlier." Quite.

4).Regardless, the pundits and others have weighed in with ideas for changes to take to Austin, Texas, for the Dell Match Play next March.
An indignant Jordan Spieth wants 54 holes stroke play followed by the top 16 going Match Play - 'course, though he played well on Wednesday and Thursday, Westwood beat him by two up as well as two strokes. Anyway, Finchem's not having that, but he promises some "tweaks". A straight knock out for all 64 players works well in my book . . . . . .

5).Can't let the Match Play go without talking about the big "fight", not Mayweather reaping gazillions fighting a guy with a torn rotator cuff, but Bradley/Hale vs Jimenez. I've seen interpretations of forensic analysis of the tape purporting to say each golfer was in the right. Who knows?
What I haven't seen is anyone suggesting Pepsi Hale was right to intervene and confront Jimenez (especially if it's true that he mocked Miguel's accent) - who does he think he is? Steve Williams?? Not surprisingly the tenor of media opinion here is that Jimenez is just another Spanish Ryder Cupper with questionable behaviour in Match Play. GolfWorld's Jaime Diaz, among the sports media's most respected writers, put it this way:
"Ryder Cup stuff lingers. Supposedly hale fellow Jimenez has a reputation among Americans for being an annoying opponent with a haughty and even antagonistic air. When Jimenez questioned an official's ruling, permitted under the rules but a breach of the golfer's code, he pushed the highly strung Bradley's buttons. Of course, Jimenez doesn't seem to have any. He walked away from the ugliness with customary aplomb, raising suspicions that, like the world's most interesting man, he had simply decided to have an awkward moment, just to see what it was like."

NB: Have never previously heard such aspersions cast against Miguel.
Diaz may think questioning an official's ruling is a breach of golfer's code, but it certainly happens on regular Tour events as well as the Ryder Cup, and happened in a (semi-final?) match at a recent Match Play between Garcia and Poulter when Poults questioned a ruling, brought in the referee, and was proved to be correct.
The most relevant outcome? Jimenez won 2 up. RedWine RedWine  

6).Jimenez has played 38 WGC events, which is a lot but by no means the leader. That distinction falls to Lee Westwood, with 51 and a couple more presumably to follow later this year. The five with the most appearances are:
51: Westwood
48: Els
45: Furyk
44: Woods
44: Mickelson

7).Two sad events last week, the passing of pioneering black golfers Calvin Peete and Pete Brown. There aren't many left. I linked an appreciation of Calvin Peete last week. Here's what Scott Michaux had to say about Pete Brown (and, not incidentally, Jim Dent):
http://chronicle.augusta.com/sports/golf/2015-05-02/michaux-jim-dent-wont-forget-man-pete-brown

When I started following US PGA Tour golf, Lee Elder, Jim Dent, Jim Thorpe and Calvin Peete were Tour regulars; one or two others followed, and Charlie Sifford and Charlie Owens were trail-blazers on the Senior Tour. Since Tiger burst on the scene and inspired generations of new Tour pros, no new black player has emerged as a Tour regular. That says something, but I'm not completely sure exactly what.

8).Meanwhile, some Tour pros took the opportunity to introduce themselves to Chambers Bay. The press release said the reviews were "mixed", but I haven't read a good review yet. Most liked the routing but not the greens - just a few weeks now and we'll be able to see what the fuss is about.

9).There'll be plenty to read about The Players Championship so no point in going on about it. Great field, very precise ball-striking required, Henrik Stenson ticks all the boxes for attributes required to win (again), but Stenson has seemed out of sorts since the Bay Hill fiasco, sickness, and not knowing the MatchPlay rules last week. He wasn't thrilled with his first look at Chambers Bay and, let's face it, with Stenson you are never quite sure which Henrik you're going to get. Hopefully this week will be Good Henrik but I wouldn't bank on it.

10).The final word about one of golf's shortest champions, Wee Woosie, who is playing his best golf for ten years, probably his best since his 15-clubs snafu at Lytham. Woosie won this past week's Champions Tour event in Houston, in a Play-off with Kenny Perry and Lehman, and banked $300+K, the largest official payday of his career and $64K more than he won at The Masters in 1991.
Last and least - but only in height. His stature in golf is unquestioned.

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Post by GPB Tue 05 May 2015, 10:11 pm

"Indignant" Spieth?  uh Ok. Rolling Eyes  I guess making a suggestion makes someone indignant.

I don't understand why not much has been written on the made for TV late start on Saturday.

I think Garcia has played 45 WGC's.  And like Westwood and Furyk, no wins.

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Post by kwinigolfer Tue 05 May 2015, 11:45 pm

GPB,
Spieth's twitteration seemed very petty, as if he was trying to influence future structure of the tournament to suit the much-publicised note that he had the best stroke-play record, tied with BG. So what. You lost Jordan.

Agree that Sergio should have been included with 45.

I'm sure that he's up there in Majors played without wins also.

But at least he won the Fifth Major!

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Post by GPB Wed 06 May 2015, 12:50 am

His two tweets after his loss

Tweet #1

The beauty of match play.. Great clutch work by @ WestwoodLee

Tweet #2

In my opinion.. If change in format was wanted/needed.. Makes sense to do stroke play first 3 rounds then top 16 into bracket. Agree?


I don't see what is indignant about either of these tweets

https://twitter.com/JordanSpieth

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Post by super_realist Wed 06 May 2015, 7:15 am

I don't see how it makes sense to play 3 rounds of Strokeplay at all.

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Post by MontysMerkin Wed 06 May 2015, 8:00 am

Suppose it depends if you're scheiss at match play...
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Post by Bob_the_Job Wed 06 May 2015, 9:21 am

Cheers Kwini.

The Players. With you on the 17th- always seemed forced drama. Why not just roll dice to decide the score.

Spieth - Don't blame him for making the suggestion, but I don't really get it. It's a matchplay competition, so, you know, play matchplay. Also what to do if 20 guys tied for 16th? I'm probably alone in this, but I really enjoyed the WGC - I don't think every event has to be fireworks and I liked the opportunity to see players take on different types of opponents over the first three days. Scheduling was a bit pony, but that could have been fixed easily.

MAJ/Bradley - Keegan's outrage at having his caddy be told to shut up was hilarious. But the whole thing could have been prevented with better/stronger refereeing. If you think MAJ was in the wrong to interfere in the ruling, then fine, but at least he didn't get right up in anyone's face and try to intimidate them physically like Keegan appeared to. Twice.

Under representation of African-American (is that still PC?) players on the PGA tour. It's ironic that Tiger's rise coincided with (caused?) the further demise. Hard to understand too - to the uninitiated he looked like an inspirational and aspirational (made up word) role model.

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Post by McLaren Wed 06 May 2015, 10:25 am

Nice write up kwini, and I am not just saying that because I agree with most of what you have written this week.


Agreed, The Players™ may have one of the finest fields in the world but I am glad to see the fifth major talk has died down.  The Americans can replace one of their majors with The Players™ but not add a fifth (personally I would get rid of the Masters).

Like bob I enjoyed watching the matchplay and refuse to be influenced by downbeat coverage and lack of hype.  If the broadcasters had wanted to they could have put their PR caps on and made the matchplay a big event.  But for whatever reason they chose not to, and it seems many viewers need the broadcasters to set the tone for them.   The end to the Furyk and McIlroy match contained some of the best iron shots you could hope to see.  For most of the back nine Furyk was as accurate as it is possible to be with mid irons.  The course was also a lot more interesting than what we are usually exposed to.  What more do you want when watching golf?

Not sure the round robin needs to go but a tweak to the schedule might help.

Regardless, a win for McIlroy in a very high OWGR rated event, an important indicator of career greatness.  As you mentioned, many players have played in a lot of WGC's without much success.  And this is a sign of just how difficult it is to beat a very strong field.


MAJ v Keegs

The analysis is pretty simple.  MAJ makes enquiry in relatively polite fashion, Keegs and caddie have a melt down.  Keegs had a tantrum and showed the level of maturity I always claimed he had.  It is a surprise that he has left his mothers teet.  Maybe pepsi has to tuck him in these days?


As for the lack of black players in golf.  What a disgrace.   Tiger is blaming this on carts replacing caddies but I suspect it has more to do with the still racist tone of certain sections of society in the west.
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Post by Eyetoldyouso Wed 06 May 2015, 12:49 pm

Kwini
Great article as usual.
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree regarding the 17th at Sawgrass. I think it's a great hole. After all these are the very best golfers in the world and all they are being asked to do is stick a wedge/9 iron onto a great big green a mere 137 odd yards away. The fact that it plays with their heads is what makes it different; a different challenge and wonderful.

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Post by kwinigolfer Wed 06 May 2015, 1:14 pm

Thanks All,
At least it's good that the TPC's 17th creates interest!

Mac,
The thing I don't understand about golf not being more diverse is that the pre-Woods generation played as pros and enjoyed some succes, and that in times of far greater discrimination than now - why should black golfers have to come up through the caddie ranks? Black sportsmen have succeeded in most other sports and the Sifford/Owens/Brown/Elder/Peete generation offered at least some sort of platform.
I'm not saying Woods should have done more but it's surprising that he hasn't inspired at least some more diverse representation in the Pro ranks. Far more black ice hockey players in the NHL for instance.
Surprising also that he "never had the chance to meet Pete Brown" (he lived in Augusta after all) and scarcely knew Calvin Peete.
I certainly hope things change for the better (more diverse) in the coming years.

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Post by incontinentia Wed 06 May 2015, 1:52 pm

Will Woods make the cut? He's been suffering from insomnia ever since the Lindsey split, as well as his injured wrist and resulting lack of practice.

As for lack of black players on the PGA Tour- as long as access/opportunities aren't being denied then what's the problem? If a black player is good enough and has the desire then they will make it. Perhaps there's a lack of interest in golf among the black community?
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Post by MontysMerkin Wed 06 May 2015, 2:31 pm

I would imagine his wrist is going to get a lot more action with the 'vonn' not present...
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Post by GPB Wed 06 May 2015, 2:33 pm

super_realist wrote:I don't see how it makes sense to play 3 rounds of Strokeplay at all.  


It does NOT make sense.  But my point is that there was nothing "Indignant" about those tweets.

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Post by puligny Wed 06 May 2015, 2:52 pm

Monty - very good.

Kwini - good stuff. 17 is poor in my view. Too much riding on one good/bad bounce etc. actually not a fan of so much water on courses - a little fine but some courses represent little more than water parks.

MAJ - difficult to hear the whole dialogue, but he has every right to question what is happening in matchplay. Sadly Keegan and caddie a bit of an embarrassment.

5th major? Get in the queue behind Australia, South Africa and France. Would even make an argument for Italy, Spain and Far East which itself could have more than 1. Much though I enjoy The Masters, and think it special, it's not a major in my book, and don't believe PGA should be either. Hey ho! It's a pity, and an increasing one, that golf is so parochial.

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Post by McLaren Wed 06 May 2015, 3:02 pm

Kwini

Tiger hasn't done anything proactive about promoting more opportunities for black players trying to get into the game. What would be interesting to know is why he hasn't? Did he want to do something and was prevented from doing so for some reason or was he just not bothered about the issue?

What happened to his batsh*t fathers prediction that he would change the world beyond golf?


And I don't support tigers idea that the game has a lack of black players because of golf carts, I was just relaying his theory. As I said above, my theory would be that those in poverty are blocked from golf as a pastime and the make up of your average golf club reflects the demographic of the western worlds middle class. Which is probably lacking in the diversity department. So I guess there isn't much would can do about that.
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Post by kwinigolfer Wed 06 May 2015, 3:07 pm

GPB,
It was interesting listening to Casey and Parkin talk about all the Match Play they'd competed in growing up, plus Faldo talking about all Willett's Match Play success. As opposed to some Americans who'd apparently scarcely ever played it.
Just thought it was a bit churlish of Spieth to suggest reducing the Match Play content of an event he'd just been eliminated from.
But maybe it was meant to be more constructive than it seemed to come across.

Interestingly, the format for the 3-man Grace, Hoffman, Johnson play-off reverted to stroke play! I suppose it has to, but a touch anomalous all the same.

As for Tiger, how much longer is he going to mourn/milk his father's death?

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Post by kwinigolfer Wed 06 May 2015, 3:14 pm

Mac,
No, I got the golf-cart reference, just don't feel as if that's quite it; a bit simplistic if anything. Black tennis players are coming through, why not black golfers, especially as golf remains a pastime of choice for so many black athletes. Steph Curry, who was just named NBA MVP, is entered for California State Amateur Qualifying!

I wonder if Tiger doesn't quite see himself as "African American" and, perhaps, nor do those to whom one might expect him to be a role model; amazing he seems not to have related to guys like Peete and Brown. Whatever, it appears his "Foundation" has reached across ethnic groups for schooling, why not golf?

A bit of a mystery.

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Post by puligny Wed 06 May 2015, 3:19 pm

I believe Tiger is on record describing himself as not African American, and stating his Thai heritage was as important as anything else. Why wouldn't he?

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Post by kwinigolfer Wed 06 May 2015, 3:21 pm

Keegan's side of the story!

http://www.golfchannel.com/media/bradley-jimenez-i-let-him-get-under-my-skin/?cid=Email_WednesdayNL_20150506


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Post by kwinigolfer Wed 06 May 2015, 3:26 pm

puligny,
Yup, I get that. But the fact is he is seen as "African American" by the public and media. And he goes on about his father so much that you'd think he'd have reached out to his Dad's peer group if nothing else.
I just feel as if lack of golfing success by black Americans is a puzzlingly incomplete facet of his legacy. So far anyway.

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Post by McLaren Wed 06 May 2015, 3:28 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:Keegan's side of the story!

http://www.golfchannel.com/media/bradley-jimenez-i-let-him-get-under-my-skin/?cid=Email_WednesdayNL_20150506


As much as I can't stand the dweeb, at least his perception of the incident matches reality. You certainly can't imagine sergio responding in such a reasonable manner. (you know, like admitting he made a racist comment when he clearly did, or accepting it was pure paranoia that led him to think tiger clinked a club from 200 paces to put him off)
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Post by navyblueshorts Wed 06 May 2015, 3:34 pm

Baseball/basketball/ice hockey/NFL/football(soccer!) of more interest to Afro-Americans? :shrug:

Re. 17th @ TPC. It's a fun hole for the crowds but it's a poor piece of design. Anyone on here could have done as much. Good holes are risk/reward and the 17th @ TPC is all risk and no reward - hardly a reward for hitting the green getting your par 3 is it? If you put the 10th @ the Belfry there instead, now that's risk/reward and would still be good for the crowds.
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Post by MontysMerkin Wed 06 May 2015, 3:47 pm

It seems a little unfair to expect Tiger to have to play any part in race relations. He's a bloke that shags around and plays golf. Simples. But I guess in a country of barely concealed apartheid that he should realise he's not going to get away with it.
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Post by super_realist Wed 06 May 2015, 4:42 pm

McLaren wrote:

As for the lack of black players in golf.  What a disgrace.   Tiger is blaming this on carts replacing caddies but I suspect it has more to do with the still racist tone of certain sections of society in the west.

I couldn't care less for this. I might as well say it's a disgrace that there is a lack of Black swimmers, or a lack of white people in 100 metres races or that there is a lack of Norwegians playing cricket or why there are so few Sub Indian continent footballers in the PL.

There is nothing stopping any race from doing any sport. Are white people encouraged to play golf? Are black people discouraged? I've seen no evidence of that.

There are players who are black and there are players who are white at my club, whilst we've had a captain who was a Sub Indian continent immigrant. I don't see any evidence there is anything stopping black (or any other race) players from playing golf.

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Post by McLaren Wed 06 May 2015, 4:47 pm

MontysMerkin wrote:a country of barely concealed apartheid

There is some concealing going on?



Super

When the reason a group of people isn't represented in a sport is discrimination you should care.


Methinks your norwegain cricketers vs black american golfers example is a bit of a false analogy, but if not please explain how those examples are comparable.
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Post by super_realist Wed 06 May 2015, 4:50 pm

McLaren wrote:
MontysMerkin wrote:a country of barely concealed apartheid

There is some concealing going on?  



Super

When the reason a group of people isn't represented in a sport is discrimination you should care.  


Methinks your norwegain cricketers vs black american golfers example is a bit of a false analogy, but if not please explain how those examples are comparable.

What discrimination? The number of black people playing golf is not indicative of discrimination. It could be any number of reasons.
Is the number of men horse-riding indicative of sexism?

What makes you think it is discrimination, and not anything else?

Are the number of people who consider Cheese to be their favourite sandwich filling equally represented at your club? A golf club, or any other institution, is NEVER going to be representative of a population, I'm surprised you think it would be.

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Post by McLaren Wed 06 May 2015, 5:43 pm

Super

What planet are you on? You are aware of the way African Americans are treated by their own country?
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Post by kwinigolfer Wed 06 May 2015, 5:45 pm

Interesting five-minute interview with Brooks Koepka on golfchannel.com.
I can't link it at the moment but he reflects on some differences between the European Tour and PGA Tour. Talks about a more relaxed atmosphere, more camaraderie, guys staying and travelling together, just having more fun, and reckons that helped him as a rookie in Europe.

Stuff like that is often brought up in Ryder Cup context, but he brings a perspective those of us over here don't hear very often. Still wish more Americans went that route; Paul Peterson is a young American member of the Asian Tour playing in Mauritius this week. Some success so far, will be following his progress.

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Post by super_realist Wed 06 May 2015, 6:44 pm

McLaren wrote:Super

What planet are you on?  You are aware of the way African Americans are treated by their own country?

I'm talking about your alleged discrimination in golf clubs, and I haven't seen any.

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Post by NedB-H Wed 06 May 2015, 8:07 pm

Is the topic for debate the lack of black American pro golfers? Or evidence of racial discrimination at golf clubs in the US.

As Kwini says, there are loads of black sports stars in the US who enjoy golf as a pastime, lots of them rock up at the pro-am events for a start. And the country's first black President seems mildly obsessed with golf. I don't know whether this is reflected in participation among the rank and file, and how many ordinary black Americans play golf regularly. But if you assume that at least some do, the question becomes why are none kicking on talent-wise to become pros? I wonder whether take-up of golf amongst kids hasn't been great, and heads have been turned by other trendier sports instead.

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Post by kwinigolfer Wed 06 May 2015, 8:41 pm

I'm sure the latter is largely true Ned.

It's improbable that racial discrimination has increased in the past fifty years, I'd refute that.
I just think it defies probability that we've gone from a sprinkling (at least 3 or 4 at most times 1975 - 1995) to none in the Tiger era, when you'd think there might be some growth. Woods himself suggested it's because of the decline in caddie programmes at golf clubs but that is surely too simplistic.

There are more black players in College golf, albeit still a small number. Hopefully there'll be a London Bus-type infusion into the Pros before much longer.


Still no more withdrawals at TPC so Martin Laird is cooling his heels as first alternate.

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Post by skiddy Wed 06 May 2015, 10:07 pm

Black people have lower income. Golfs an expensive sport. Most sportmen and women that are black people thrive in bball, football, running etc are relatively cheap sports. I doubt its racial discrimination. Probably just income inequality which US media doesnt report. It prefers to pretend the Baltimores and Fergusons of this world just dont exist.

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Post by kwinigolfer Wed 06 May 2015, 10:16 pm

skiddy,
That's very simplistic and certainly doesn't explain why the representation is non-existent now compared to the albeit small numbers of 30-odd years ago.

You'll be glad to know that a former Mayor of our small town is running for President precisely on the income inequality (which is certainly not black/white) divide and increasingly worsening situation.

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Post by skiddy Wed 06 May 2015, 10:26 pm

I agree, poor white people are equally as unlikely to play. But a higher percentage of black people are poorer. Also there are less black people in the states. Maybe it was just a fluke there were some players 30 years ago.

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Post by pedro Thu 07 May 2015, 12:19 am

Tiger is one quarter black only. His dad was half black and half native. His mom half thai and half white. He just looks black. Does that oblige him? And more than Vijay? (albeit he's not American). As other posters say, he doesn't see himself as black/African American. (His taste in ladies kinda supports that.... Whistle )

But maybe golf just isn't a 'black thing', just as skiing or ice-hockey isn't?

Hole 17 is great. Just the fact that we debate it proves that it is interesting. There's nothing more dull than the US style up-and-down parkland courses we see week in, week out.

Who knows, maybe Tiger pulls a Rory and wins a big tournament the week after splitting with a GF?

Bradley knew he f-ked up. By the looks of his eyes he was / is clearly on something - and it's not pepsi.
But after having listened to the video I'm also not so sure about the Spanish accent mocking. The fact that his caddie is a 'family man' doesn't acquit him though! Headscratch

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Post by sirbenson Thu 07 May 2015, 12:26 am

http://fantasygolf.pgatour.com/#/landing

Have you all joined this?

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Post by I'm never wrong Thu 07 May 2015, 7:14 am

kwinigolfer wrote:
Still no more withdrawals at TPC so Martin Laird is cooling his heels as first alternate.

i haven't been able to find an exemption list, and was wondering why a player - for example - David Toms OWGR 229? - is in the field - when others aren't.

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Post by navyblueshorts Thu 07 May 2015, 8:23 am

McLaren wrote:...Super

When the reason a group of people isn't represented in a sport is discrimination you should care....
There you go again with your assumptions Mac. Thought you were scientific but I guess I was wrong.
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Post by McLaren Thu 07 May 2015, 9:00 am

Navy

discrimination doesn't have to be a white guy standing at the door turning black people away. It could just as easily be a system that means black people never get the opportunity to get to the door.

The median income for whites in the US is $55800 and $33600 for nonwhites. The wealth gap is even bigger. The median net worth of a white person in the US is $142000 compared to only $18100 for non whites. In other words you have to be white to have enough in your bank account to cover golf fees.
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Post by super_realist Thu 07 May 2015, 9:21 am

Why are there so few white hip hop artists, or basketball players, or American footballers, or sprinters, or heavyweight boxers or top marathon runners? Is that discrimination?

You've decided you think golf discriminates against black people, and so you attribute the low number of black people playing it as evidence of that. That's confirmation bias, because you haven't considered any other option as to why that might be the case. You've leapt to a conclusion.

By the way, high golf fees mean anyone who can't afford to play.  I'm white, but can't afford to join Archerfield, is that discrimination? It is impractical to have everything open to everyone, we don't live in a communist state.

The high price of Aston Martin's "discriminates" against those who can't afford to buy them. I suppose you expect them to be available for the price of your bus pass?

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Post by McLaren Thu 07 May 2015, 10:07 am

Super

I clearly stated I didn't think golf actively discriminated against black people. If you bother to follow the thread you will see that I think the wider societal issues in the US do not present enough black people (or Hispanic) with the opportunity to join a club.


At the very least we know that the pool of black people who could join a club if they wanted to is a lot smaller than the pool of white people who could join a club. Oddly I haven't carried out a proper study of the next step, but given this is just a forum and not an academic discussion you would surely allow a small amount of speculation.

And the speculation I make is that there just aren't very many black people in the US with funds to play golf and that has an impact on participation numbers at all levels of the game.

I am happy for you or navy to dismiss that prediction but at least address the points I have made and not some made up stuff about whether or not already pretty wealthy people can afford expensive cars.

As to what I would expect, for starters I expect societies not to hamper a whole segment based on skin colour.
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Post by super_realist Thu 07 May 2015, 10:15 am

McLaren wrote:Super

I clearly stated I didn't think golf actively discriminated against black people.  If you bother to follow the thread you will see that I think the wider societal issues in the US do not present enough black people (or Hispanic) with the opportunity to join a club.


At the very least we know that the pool of black people who could join a club if they wanted to is a lot smaller than the pool of white people who could join a club.  Oddly I haven't carried out a proper study of the next step, but given this is just a forum and not an academic discussion you would surely allow a small amount of speculation.

And the speculation I make is that there just aren't very many black people in the US with funds to play golf and that has an impact on participation numbers at all levels of the game.

I am happy for you or navy to dismiss that prediction but at least address the points I have made and not some made up stuff about whether or not already pretty wealthy people can afford expensive cars.  

As to what I would expect, for starters I expect societies not to hamper a whole segment based on skin colour.

Wrong, the low income and wealth of black people is your issue. That's got nothing to do with golf.

It isn't golf, or anybody else to make their facilities, clubs, products affordable to all.


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Post by McLaren Thu 07 May 2015, 10:23 am

Super

Can you not read man.

I have stated several times that golf actively discriminating against black people has nothing to do with my premise.

Lets agree that clubs are free to set their fees at whatever the want.

But it should not be the case that one segment of society has little chance of earning enough to meet those fees.

(PS I am well aware that many white people in the US are also unfairly kept in poverty)


Golf is for the upper middle class (or whateverr mercans call that) in the US and for whatever reason those in that wealth group are disproportionately white. Would anyone like to disagree with that statement and why?
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Post by super_realist Thu 07 May 2015, 10:24 am

Mac, in what way is anyone unfairly kept in poverty?

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Post by McLaren Thu 07 May 2015, 10:30 am

super_realist wrote:Mac, in what way is anyone unfairly kept in poverty?

Are you kidding me? You think most people in the US get a fair crack at life?
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Post by super_realist Thu 07 May 2015, 10:32 am

In what way are they KEPT in poverty?

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Post by McLaren Thu 07 May 2015, 10:37 am

Super

In all the usual ways that inequality is maintained.

No minimum wage
very low wages
poor access to all levels of education
limited job opportunities
limited welfare state
limited access to healthcare
etc etc....
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Post by kwinigolfer Thu 07 May 2015, 11:08 am

Should be a good day for Golf, regardless of the colour of the golfer's skin or the content of their character.

Temps into the 80's, enough wind to make it interesting, and mostly dry.
Getting quite warm the rest of the week, good chance of thunderstorms every day.

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Post by navyblueshorts Thu 07 May 2015, 11:29 am

McLaren wrote:Navy

discrimination doesn't have to be a white guy standing at the door turning black people away.  It could just as easily be a system that means black people never get the opportunity to get to the door.

The median income for whites in the US is $55800 and $33600 for nonwhites.  The wealth gap is even bigger.  The median net worth of a white person in the US is $142000 compared to only $18100 for non whites.  In other words you have to be white to have enough in your bank account to cover golf fees.
Fine and thanks for the info. You're still conflating, what could be argued to be, circumstantial evidence though. Take Kwini's point re. the post-Woods era and the era of Peete et al and the fact, as he rightly points out, that there is highly unlikely to be an increased racism in the U.S. these days cf. 30, 40, 50 years ago.
I'm sure you're right in part but it's a more complex issue than it simply must be 100% overt racism.
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Post by navyblueshorts Thu 07 May 2015, 11:32 am

Good point Kwini. Btw, thanks for an excellent Ballwasher column once again. Quite looking forward to this Players - not sure why but w/ Spieth being the real deal and in-form, McIlroy off the back of the recent WPC etc, it's looking quite tasty.
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