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Taking the man out in the air- The Daftest Red Card Yet

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Post by Notch Mon 11 May 2015, 12:23 pm

Sergio Parisse was sent off after twenty minutes for Stade Francais against Racing Metro at the weekend, you can see a gif of the incident in the link below;

http://www.the42.ie/parisse-red-card-2095907-May2015/

This for me far surpasses the Payne incident in terms of just how frustrating it is; whilst both players had their eyes on the ball all the way, Parisse has actually jumped to contest possession. He also seems to be impeded by Racing number 7 in getting up as high as possible.

You have two players running forward, looking at the ball all the way, and jumping to contest possession. There's a collision which ends badly and as a result the player who jumped less high is shown a red card.

I agree that safety is important, but this is not going to have any effect on that. My verdict? Restart play with a penalty against Racings open side. Him pulling Parisse back seemed to affect the height he could get on his jump.
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Post by LondonTiger Mon 11 May 2015, 12:41 pm

Would like to see a proper video, but agree that seems to have occurred because the Racing player pulled Parisse down.

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Post by SecretFly Mon 11 May 2015, 1:07 pm

Whilst both players have the Right to go for the ball, this particular episode again shows that it's actually the jumper, that goes higher and comes in much faster, that is actually putting both players in more danger.  How does the player that hoists himself into the air at such momentum expect to come down completely safely when he knows there will be a contest area with likely other players close at hand?

The truth is - he knows it's a risk.  But increasingly, he also knows that the opponent might get a Red.  The incentive to risk outweighs the safety concerns.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 11 May 2015, 1:16 pm

If Parisse was not pulled the that would have been a fair contest,the fact was, he was pulled and could not get off the ground, so the player pulling him should have been punished, Parisse was put into a dangerous situation by another person, and that is the soccer type tactics that we are seeing more and more creeping into our game.

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Post by GunsGerms Mon 11 May 2015, 1:17 pm

The burden of risk should be on the guy in the air too. Ridiculous penalty, as was Paynes IMO.

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Post by Guest Mon 11 May 2015, 1:22 pm

Garces strikes again.

How on earth can that be red? Especially as Parisse was being held at the time!

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Post by HammerofThunor Mon 11 May 2015, 1:22 pm

I can see why it got missed if they didn't review it but it's pretty daft if the TMO was involved. Parisse wasn't reckless.

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Post by VinceWLB Mon 11 May 2015, 4:22 pm

Never thought i would see a case worse than Payne's but here we go.

Garces is considered the 2nd best if not the best ref in France so i would think twice before complaining about the refs in the pro 12.

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Post by tigertattie Mon 11 May 2015, 4:35 pm

Yup, our buddies over in Ireland really need to get a handle on this!

Just changing their name to 'World Rugby' ain't helping things!
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Post by marty2086 Mon 11 May 2015, 4:41 pm

Munchkin wrote:Garces strikes again.

How on earth can that be red? Especially as Parisse was being held at the time!

Just shows Garces decisions depends on the outcome not the events, he sees a bad fall and overreacts

If it was truly about safety with him he'd be showing reds left right and centre for contact in the air


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Post by SecretFly Mon 11 May 2015, 4:42 pm

Universal Rugby World (URW)?

Would that have saved Parisse from the red?

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Post by Notch Mon 11 May 2015, 5:33 pm

VinceWLB wrote:Garces is considered the 2nd best if not the best ref in France so i would think twice before complaining about the refs in the pro 12.

And he is a good ref, by and large. I have respect for him as a referee 90% of the game whilst seeing this specific area as red card waiting to happen every time he takes the field. The interpretation of this specific rule is the main issue and he seems especially judicious at enforcing an interpretation of the law I find very counter-productive. But it's not just his interpretation, it's the IRB in general.

I pretty much agree with the comments that coming from deep and jumping for a high ball leaves you inherently vulnerable, and penalising players who are trying to contest the ball within the laws of the game isn't going to make that less unsafe.
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Post by Pete330v2 Mon 11 May 2015, 5:53 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Garces strikes again.

How on earth can that be red? Especially as Parisse was being held at the time!

Just shows Garces decisions depends on the outcome not the events, he sees a bad fall and overreacts

If it was truly about safety with him he'd be showing reds left right and centre for contact in the air


Exactly Marty, Garces always judges the outcome instead of the action. Mind you at the time of the Payne incident there were a hell of a lot of posters on here that agreed with that. Not so now me thinks Smile

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Post by Notch Mon 11 May 2015, 6:00 pm

This is an even more clear-cut case Pete. Whilst people were able to justify the Payne red card by arguing that because he didn't jump into contact to contest the ball he had endangered Goode regardless of whether that was intentional or whether he simply didn't realise where Goode was/mistimed his jump.

Parisse times his jump well despite being impeded and his only real fault was not getting as high as the receiver. Still red.
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Post by LondonTiger Mon 11 May 2015, 6:03 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:I can see why it got missed if they didn't review it but it's pretty daft if the TMO was involved. Parisse wasn't reckless.

Completely agree. If the TMO was used and was shown the tug - he should be sacked.

If the ref is not stood in the right position to see the tug, ie behind the players, then by the laws it is a clear cut red card.

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Post by VinceWLB Mon 11 May 2015, 6:10 pm

I do think Parisse completely mis timed his jump but this shouldn't have any bearing on the sanction, Racing 15 basically went over him and physics says there was only one way he would fall back, on his shoulders/head. As soon as TMO told Garces Racing 15 felt that way, Garces branded the red without taking into account anything else.

Notch, even in other facet of the game i don't think Garces is that good and he is often shown up at the highest level, his interpretation of the breakdown in particular isn't what you would expect from a top ref.

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Post by LondonTiger Mon 11 May 2015, 6:12 pm

Notch wrote:This is an even more clear-cut case Pete. Whilst people were able to justify the Payne red card by arguing that because he didn't jump into contact to contest the ball he had endangered Goode regardless of whether that was intentional or whether he simply didn't realise where Goode was/mistimed his jump.

Parisse times his jump well despite being impeded and his only real fault was not getting as high as the receiver. Still red.

Actually because of the tug on him he is coming down and almost on the ground when contact is made, so from a different angle it will look as is Parisse pretends to jump but actually has no intention of competing for the ball.

Ask 20 people to watch that from say 5 different camera angles just once, and you will get 20 different interpretations of exactly what happened.

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Post by HammerofThunor Mon 11 May 2015, 6:23 pm

VinceWLB wrote:I do think Parisse completely mis timed his jump but this shouldn't have any bearing on the sanction, Racing 15 basically went over him and physics says there was only one way he would fall back, on his shoulders/head. As soon as TMO told Garces Racing 15 felt that way, Garces branded the red without taking into account anything else.

Notch, even in other facet of the game i don't think Garces is that good and he is often shown up at the highest level, his interpretation of the breakdown in particular isn't what you would expect from a top ref.

Which is exactly why the IRB have said that if you're running to catch the ball, you basically have to jump. If both players have jumped it's unlikely either will land on their head. But this has been done to death so not much point in taking over old coals.

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Post by marty2086 Mon 11 May 2015, 6:41 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:I do think Parisse completely mis timed his jump but this shouldn't have any bearing on the sanction, Racing 15 basically went over him and physics says there was only one way he would fall back, on his shoulders/head. As soon as TMO told Garces Racing 15 felt that way, Garces branded the red without taking into account anything else.

Notch, even in other facet of the game i don't think Garces is that good and he is often shown up at the highest level, his interpretation of the breakdown in particular isn't what you would expect from a top ref.

Which is exactly why the IRB have said that if you're running to catch the ball, you basically have to jump. If both players have jumped it's unlikely either will land on their head.  But this has been done to death so not much point in taking over old coals.

Hammer if one player out jumps another and at pace he can still go arse over elbow

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Post by HammerofThunor Mon 11 May 2015, 6:50 pm

Which is why the IRB release thing says they need to jump about the same amount. Realistically, if both jump properly they'll be about the right place. If one player only gets an inch off the floor they might as well not jumped.

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Post by Guest Mon 11 May 2015, 7:03 pm

Our jumpers need ballet lessons Shocked

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Post by SecretFly Mon 11 May 2015, 8:23 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Which is why the IRB release thing says they need to jump about the same amount. Realistically, if both jump properly they'll be about the right place. If one player only gets an inch off the floor they might as well not jumped.

Can a standing still player ever jump as high as one using incoming speed to assist the jump though?  It's almost like saying an athletic high jumper should be able to clear his jump by simply standing beside it and jumping.


Last edited by SecretFly on Mon 11 May 2015, 9:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 11 May 2015, 9:25 pm

That should be a Stade penalty. Parisse is contesting the ball and trying to contest fairly, the situation is dangerous only because he is pulled back by the opposition player. First offence is the pull and that's what should have been penalised.

Not even close to the Payne incident. Payne was not competing for the ball, never left the ground that was reckless and the second Goode landed on his head was a deserved red card.

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Post by HammerofThunor Mon 11 May 2015, 10:40 pm

SecretFly wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Which is why the IRB release thing says they need to jump about the same amount. Realistically, if both jump properly they'll be about the right place. If one player only gets an inch off the floor they might as well not jumped.

Can a standing still player ever jump as high as one using incoming speed to assist the jump though?  It's almost like saying an athletic high jumper should be able to clear his jump by simply standing beside it and jumping.

A standing still player doesn't need to jump. Only need to jump if running.

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Post by SecretFly Mon 11 May 2015, 10:42 pm

?

You sure?


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Post by asoreleftshoulder Mon 11 May 2015, 11:16 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Garces strikes again.

How on earth can that be red? Especially as Parisse was being held at the time!

Just shows Garces decisions depends on the outcome not the events, he sees a bad fall and overreacts

If it was truly about safety with him he'd be showing reds left right and centre for contact in the air


Exactly Marty, Garces always judges the outcome instead of the action. Mind you at the time of the Payne incident there were a hell of a lot of posters on here that agreed with that. Not so now me thinks Smile

http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/vine-wasps-flanker-somehow-avoids-red-card-after-taking-out-airborne-dave-kearney/10358

Sadly Garces isn't even consistently harsh,it's impossible to understand how the same ref can give a yellow for the incident in the link and a red for Parisse.

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Post by Rugby Fan Mon 11 May 2015, 11:31 pm

The thinking behind a zero tolerance policy on collisions like this, is that it would help eradicate dangerous play, even if it did catch a few innocents initially.

I don't think it is, because players are no longer certain what they can do within the law, as it's virtually impossible for them to predict the outcome of their actions.

If they run towards where the ball is landing, but don't jump, then they can end up obstructing the catcher's descent as Finn Russell did against Wales, which earned him a yellow card.

If they run and do jump, but don't get high enough, then it's a lottery. If the ball catcher comes down safely, then no-one seems to notice the challenge. If the higher man misses the catch it, then it could be deemed a knock-on, or play on, or the ref might blow for taking a man out in the air. If the man who gets highest comes down hard, then suddenly we are in red card territory.

Complicating matters is the fact that professional players know some of these permutations and can act to influence the outcome - grabbing an opponent to slow his ascent, or giving him a nudge before he takes off to send him on a different trajectory.

The intent of the directive was a good one but rugby promotes competition for the ball, and players no longer know how they can do this.

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Post by whocares Tue 12 May 2015, 12:12 am

Whoever jumps the highest is right it seems. garces and the tmo were a bit of a disgrace. I would have thought that a year after te payne red card, some clarification over the rule would have occured. This guys is actually one of our few pro refs as well! And if you think he's bad , he's still 100 times better than some of the other french refs you never get to watch.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 12 May 2015, 12:28 am

whocares wrote:This guys is actually one of our few pro refs as well! And if you think he's bad , he's still 100 times better than some of the other french refs you never get to watch.

I think I'll take this quote in a safebox, with armed guards, back to some of the Pro12 threads.

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Post by George Carlin Tue 12 May 2015, 7:01 am

Madder than a box of hair. Dulin jumped into Parisse and injured himself.

Surely the IRB needs to issue formal direction on this before the RWC because you just know that there is going to be a badly controversial yellow or red card at the knockout stages due to something like this.

If I was managing a team like Ireland with a great kick chase, I would tell Bowe and Gillroy to jump for a ball even if they have no realistic hope of getting it. Odds on penalty most of the time.
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Post by SecretFly Tue 12 May 2015, 8:41 am

I'd just tell Bowe to actually catch the bloody ball if he uses the energy to jump for it in the first place..... rather than constantly flailing it backward awkwardly Whistle

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Post by Cyril Tue 12 May 2015, 10:55 am

Yeah, Parisse was unlucky there. An equal challenge where one player came off worse.

This doesn't bear comparison with the Payne incident, however, which was a clear red.

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Post by beshocked Tue 12 May 2015, 11:32 am

I haven't got another angle but from the footage shown at the top it looks like Parisse tips the Racing Metro player upside down which is very dangerous.

I don't think Parisse intended to send the Racing metro player hurtling into the ground head first but he did.

Garces is punishing the consequence of the collision. It's not as reckless as the Payne incident though.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 12 May 2015, 11:42 am

Where did the Racing Metro player think he was going to end up when he saw all the players in and around the drop zone and still sprang into the air like a Gazelle?

Yes, players have an obligation to keep him as safe as possible by not doing anything silly that would exacerbate the dangers to him, but they are entitled to challenge for a ball.  Parisse was in the air before him.  The Metro man charged in and took himself into the air.  He decided for himself that he was going to risk it to catch the ball.  In those circumstances, some responsibility for the dangers of the encounter Must rest with the player who charged in and jumped high.  They ain't dumb - that's risky in a crowded area.

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Post by asoreleftshoulder Tue 12 May 2015, 1:01 pm

beshocked wrote:I haven't got another angle but from the footage shown at the top it looks like Parisse tips the Racing Metro player upside down which is very dangerous.

I don't think Parisse intended to send the Racing metro player hurtling into the ground head first but he did.

Garces is punishing the consequence of the collision. It's not as reckless as the Payne incident though.

Parisse didn't tip him,a Racing player tugged Parisse so his jump was compromised.He is completely without fault here but Garces is utterly inconsistent with his interpretations.It seems that deliberately upending a player only results in a yellow while an accidental collision in an attempt to catch the ball results in a red for whichever player who loses the contest.

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Post by Pete330v2 Tue 12 May 2015, 2:47 pm

Ban all kind of jumping, no taking to the air allowed.
While we're at it lets ban running at pace, there's a possibility of a defending player deliberately smashing into you (known in some circles as a tackle) causing bruising and minor bumps. It may also result in head injuries to the tackler
Oh and due to the ban on running all kinds of tackle will now be banned as someone will be injured if this carries on.
Lastly, change the shape of the ball to a sphere.

There that should do it!!!

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Post by SecretFly Tue 12 May 2015, 2:55 pm

Ban Pete... he's being flippant...

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Post by clivemcl Tue 12 May 2015, 4:04 pm

Here is the actual video rather than an animated GIF, for those who asked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgNPQZEBisM

My question is this - as I've asked before - does Garces' superiors do anything in this case. Does Garces get fined, a talking to, re-educated, or do the bosses just defend every decision the officials ever make???

Every other line of work has performances examined. Further training or warnings are handed out if you do not do your job properly.

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Post by clivemcl Tue 12 May 2015, 4:12 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/vine-wasps-flanker-somehow-avoids-red-card-after-taking-out-airborne-dave-kearney/10358

Sadly Garces isn't even consistently harsh,it's impossible to understand how the same ref can give a yellow for the incident in the link and a red for Parisse.


This is actually hard to believe.

Imagine a policeman who arrests a guy for pickpocketing one week, then the next week he tells a pickpocket to stop being naughty and lets him go, then walks around the corner and arrests another guy for pickpocketing.

If you had an audience with the IRB and showed the above example, follwed by the Payne incident - how would they respond?? Garces must have been wrong in one of the instances - was he ever told he was wrong by his bosses???

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Post by clivemcl Tue 12 May 2015, 4:17 pm

SecretFly wrote:Where did the Racing Metro player think he was going to end up when he saw all the players in and around the drop zone and still sprang into the air like a Gazelle?

EXACTLY!

The rules effectively say that if you are in the air, they your safety is the responsibility of EVERYONE else not in the air.

If I ran and tried to jump over a fence that was quite high, and my feet caught it and I landed on my neck - would you not say that I had a responsibility to act in a safe way MYSELF?

Same thing, if there are players in the 'drop zone'. If you launch yourself in the air, you surely have to accept you are CHOOSING to do something DANGEROUS.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 12 May 2015, 5:23 pm

Looks like Sergio flicked his leg out as the fullback caught the ball, but only from certain angles. That and trying to pull him up from the deck probably didn't help his cause. But still a red was a bit too far.
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Taking the man out in the air- The Daftest Red Card Yet Empty Re: Taking the man out in the air- The Daftest Red Card Yet

Post by Pete330v2 Tue 12 May 2015, 5:44 pm

"Same thing, if there are players in the 'drop zone'. If you launch yourself in the air, you surely have to accept you are CHOOSING to do something DANGEROUS."

Exactly the point I made during the debate after the Payne incident but was told how unintelligent I was for suggesting such a thing.

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Taking the man out in the air- The Daftest Red Card Yet Empty Re: Taking the man out in the air- The Daftest Red Card Yet

Post by Rory_Gallagher Tue 12 May 2015, 6:30 pm

clivemcl wrote:Here is the actual video rather than an animated GIF, for those who asked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgNPQZEBisM

My question is this - as I've asked before - does Garces' superiors do anything in this case. Does Garces get fined, a talking to, re-educated, or do the bosses just defend every decision the officials ever make???

Every other line of work has performances examined. Further training or warnings are handed out if you do not do your job properly.

The number 4 who ran in and flew into the back of Parisse is the one who deserved the red card.

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Taking the man out in the air- The Daftest Red Card Yet Empty Re: Taking the man out in the air- The Daftest Red Card Yet

Post by Notch Tue 12 May 2015, 7:08 pm

clivemcl wrote:Here is the actual video rather than an animated GIF, for those who asked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgNPQZEBisM

It's crazy from every angle, including those that clearly show the shirt tug...

Dulin actually arrives late and jumps when Parisse is still in the air. I can't see how Parisse could have done anything to prevent that. He's actually in the air competing for the ball before Dulin even jumps into him.
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Taking the man out in the air- The Daftest Red Card Yet Empty Re: Taking the man out in the air- The Daftest Red Card Yet

Post by clivemcl Tue 12 May 2015, 10:42 pm

Fair play to French TV for actually zoning in on the incident and publicly stating (or showing) that a ref was wrong.

Pundits and tv people in the UK tend to be too old school and diplomatic. I get the tradition of respecting the ref - and i agree.

But part of respecting refs has to involve refs being of a very high and consistent standard.

We are going to lose the tradition of respecting the refs if it appears refs are inconsistent, or aren't following black and white guidelines, or are making decision based on how they feel.

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Taking the man out in the air- The Daftest Red Card Yet Empty Re: Taking the man out in the air- The Daftest Red Card Yet

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