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CONGU changes for 2016

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MustPuttBetter
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Post by Davie Fri May 22, 2015 1:25 pm

Had a notification from my club giving advance warning of some proposals from CONGU for next year - some of them quite surprising!

Key points seem to be...

1) Upper handicap limit for men AND women to go to 40.4 - playing handicap of 40 (find this hard to believe!)
2) New CONGU Cat 6 created based on existing junior and handicapped golfers, allowing for handicaps up to 54
3) 4BBB allowance to be changed from 3/4 to 9/10
4) Supplementary cards to be allowed for 9 holes

I expect complaints from the low handicappers about 3)

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Post by SmithersJones Fri May 22, 2015 1:54 pm

I've also heard that hackers like me who fail to play to handicap 7 times in succession will have a new handicap allocated, though I'm not sure how it will be calculated. Presumably an average of the 7?
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Post by Davie Fri May 22, 2015 2:12 pm

Not heard that one yet SJ .. but I'd guess they would stick to their current principle (when allocating initial handicaps) of taking the lowest, after stableford adjustment, rather than averaging

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Post by barragan Fri May 22, 2015 2:18 pm

I despair... Erm

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Post by McLaren Fri May 22, 2015 2:26 pm

Davie

Do you think you will be bumped up to the new maximum?
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Post by Davie Fri May 22, 2015 2:32 pm

Spoiler:

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Post by LadyPutt Fri May 22, 2015 3:02 pm

I cannot believe they are contemplating a 40 handicap again! It was tried with the Ladies a few years ago and was a disaster. Who on earth though about resurrecting that - and for men, too.

As Barragan says.... I despair! picard
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Post by BlueCoverman Fri May 22, 2015 3:09 pm

Lets face it any bloke with any sort of ability could kick it round and play to 40...

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Post by McLaren Fri May 22, 2015 3:39 pm

Davie

I apologize, I am sure you won't need the 0.4.
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Post by MontysMerkin Fri May 22, 2015 4:23 pm

2 effing shots a hole is enough for any one. Any more than that and take something else up.
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Post by McLaren Fri May 22, 2015 4:27 pm

I reckon I could play to a 18 handicap left handed so god knows what you'd have to do to play off 40.
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Post by raycastleunited Fri May 22, 2015 4:32 pm

I guess the increase up to 40 is to encourage more people to take up golf. You can get beginners on the course with that number of shots available.

2 shots per hole should be enough for anyone on a short easy course, but not on a long tough championship course. I guess beginners shouldn't be taking on long tough championship courses.... but it's what happens.

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Post by raycastleunited Fri May 22, 2015 4:34 pm

McLaren wrote:I reckon I could play to a 18 handicap left handed so god knows what you'd have to do to play off 40.

Is that because you're left handed? So finally you are starting to be more realistic about your ability. Your true level coming out now... you reckon you might possibly be able to play to 18.

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Post by navyblueshorts Fri May 22, 2015 4:35 pm

Yep. Seen this a few weeks back on our Handicap etc sub-committee. They're also almost certainly bringing in slope ratings as well - by 2020 I think.

#3 re. the 90% cf. current 75% for 4BBB sounds quite bad to me but the numbers, hopefully, support that change. Certainly, giving 100% in singles hasn't made my win/loss ratio any different. Low handicap consistency is a killer most of the time vs. higher handicaps.
We had some anecdotal evidence discussion last meeting that other clubs have seen a drop-off in Div 1 participation in many comps since the move to 100% for singles - not sure if it's true or not though.

I think the proposal re. higher handicap categories is purely to "encourage participation". Certainly, the guys from our place who went to some CONGU workshop on this were saying that "participation" was buzzword of the day and they're concerned that golf is perceived as a 'hard' sport (good!), which prevents people sticking with it.
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Post by navyblueshorts Fri May 22, 2015 4:36 pm

McLaren wrote:I reckon I could play to a 18 handicap left handed so god knows what you'd have to do to play off 40.
Sorry. Don't believe you. Think about what you just said for a moment (I'm assuming you're not either dyslexic or genuinely ambidextrous)....
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Post by McLaren Fri May 22, 2015 4:38 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
McLaren wrote:I reckon I could play to a 18 handicap left handed </sarcasm>. so god knows what you'd have to do to play off 40.
Sorry. Don't believe you. Think about what you just said for a moment (I'm assuming you're not either dyslexic or genuinely ambidextrous)....

Sorted it for you.
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Post by Davie Fri May 22, 2015 4:39 pm

I think Ray nailed it. He IS left handed

Certainly the 90% thing will be greeted with pleasure by higher handicaps. I know when I play off 3/4 and lose 5-6 shots it makes it very difficult.

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Post by McLaren Fri May 22, 2015 4:43 pm

The point stands about play off 40 though.

If you are playing at the level (I would argue at any level but thats another story) why not just play for fun, without the added pressure of missing buffers and all that comes with having a handicap and playing in comps.

Is there any evidence that having a handicap improves the development of new players? If so then I could see the point of the 40 handicap.
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Post by Davie Fri May 22, 2015 5:01 pm

How do you feel about disabled golfers Mac? Shouldn't they be allowed to compete in competitions? Even ones reserved for disabled only - still need a h/c to level the playing field

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Post by McLaren Fri May 22, 2015 5:29 pm

Davie

I feel just fine about disabled golfers. Why do you ask?
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Post by Davie Fri May 22, 2015 5:47 pm

because of your comment about just playing for fun and not competitive. I can imagine plenty of disabled golfers, unable to play to 28 because of their disability, but still wanting to play competitive golf

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Post by golfermartin Fri May 22, 2015 6:07 pm

Are these changes actually going to happen or are they just changes that they are discussing (maybe to be rejected)? I can find nothing official on the web about them. Nothing on the CONGU website which is where I would expect to see them.

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Post by McLaren Fri May 22, 2015 6:14 pm

Its all relative, maybe a disabled player with an able bodied handicap of 28 is performing at a very high level?  

But if your handicap is 40 (for whatever reason) and your are in the same field as those with much lower handicaps what do you gain from that experience?

I predict it would be detremental to confidence and enjoyment of the game.


BUT as I mentioned above, if there is evidence to suggest that those with very high handicaps have improved development playing in comps and maintaining there handicap I am happy to be wrong.

But for most people having a 28+ handicap would suggest they play very infrequently, never practice, probably only play socially and have little desire to compare themselves to much better players.  If this is the case then why not play for when when you do get the chance to play and worry about a handicap if you get a realistic chance to improve.

I am in no way saying that very high handicappers should be banned from getting handicaps or playing in comps, I just wonder what the point of gaining the handicap is and whether it is the correct course of action for those players.

And yes, no doubt there is the odd extenuating circumstance like disability which would alter my stance. But I assumed we were talking about more normal scenarios.
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Post by Davie Fri May 22, 2015 6:18 pm

golfermartin wrote:Are these changes actually going to happen or are they just changes that they are discussing (maybe to be rejected)? I can find nothing official on the web about them. Nothing on the CONGU website which is where I would expect to see them.

No there doesn't seem to be anything on the CONGU site yet (there's very little on there actually) - but as I understand, they ARE due to happen. This info came from our handicap secretary who had been to some CONGU workshop - someone else earlier in the thread mentioned they had received the info the same way.

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Post by puligny Sat May 23, 2015 12:22 am

Maybe because I was a late starter at golf, but I have never felt wedded, or even particularly fond of the handicap system. As most people, I am used to sports where best man/woman/team wins. While I appreciate what the handicap system is all about I would prefer what happens in other sports i.e. any handicapping is effectively determined by the competition you enter, league you're in etc.

I know it's not a popular view, but difficult to change the habits of a lifetime! Handicaps are the one thing which might challenge pace of play as heated discussion topics IMHO.

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Post by raycastleunited Sat May 23, 2015 3:12 am

My mates and i always talk about our gross scores. I find it weird when guys walk in the clubhouse after their round and tell me their nett score - it's not your score.

The competitions i have won have been when I shot lowest gross. If I won a comp with the lowest nett but there were other competitors who had lower gross scores it honestly wouldn't feel like a win for me. Handicaps do have their point, and they are great for social golf. I love the way it enables players of all standards to join in and play together - what other sport allows that?

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Post by McLaren Sat May 23, 2015 1:21 pm

puligny/ray

Agreed, I have never understood the handicap system and I have played the game since about 11 years old.

I wouldn't mind if the handicap comp was a distant secondary element of club comps but it is always seen as the main element of the competition. There would be no joy in winning a football match when given a 5 shot head start and in the same vein I take no joy from my nett score in golf. (not that I have a nett score anymore as I don't have a handicap)

For those that take satisfaction from nett scores and "winning" handicap comps what about that scenario pleases you?
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Post by navyblueshorts Sat May 23, 2015 5:20 pm

McLaren wrote:puligny/ray

Agreed, I have never understood the handicap system and I have played the game since about 11 years old.

I wouldn't mind if the handicap comp was a distant secondary element of club comps but it is always seen as the main element of the competition.  There would be no joy in winning a football match when given a 5 shot head start and in the same vein I take no joy from my nett score in golf. (not that I have a nett score anymore as I don't have a handicap)

For those that take satisfaction from nett scores and "winning" handicap comps what about that scenario pleases you?
You're right. You obviously don't get the handicap system. What's the point, at all, within a single club, of only having gross events? It's not like on Tour where, more or less, many of the players are of a very similar standard. What would be the point in playing any comp if, say, you have a +2 or +3 always playing, with the next best player off, say 1 and most of the field not even Cat 1? Utterly pointless. The fields in most club comps would probably number 20 or under.
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Post by puligny Sat May 23, 2015 5:41 pm

Navy - I get the handicap system, and understand how inclusive it makes golf for competitions for all levels. I just don't like it. If the best player always wins hey ho. It's because he/she is the best player. There is always scope for subsidiary prizes, but unfortunately the subsidiary prizes often include lowest gross. I would prefer, say, all board comps to have lowest gross as the main event.
I played squash for many years, and to a reasonable standard (the older I get the better I was). I've trodden on my tongue chasing the ball hit by better players, and do you know, it made me a better player. No hiding place!
It's great that golf has a system which enables different levels to compete on a level footing, but I would prefer if that were not the majority of competitions. I should add that off scratch - most of the comps I play on the senior amateur circuit are indeed off scratch - I don't expect to win much/anything, but it makes me a better player.

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Post by McLaren Sat May 23, 2015 6:33 pm

Navy

In answering your question I again in agreement with puligny, so what if the same players keep winning. It's not for a handicapping system to sort that out but the competitors making sure they get better in order to win occasionally.
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Post by Davie Sat May 23, 2015 11:20 pm

I suspect puligny had a typo on his post and really meant to say "unfortunately the subsidiary prizes DON'T often include lowest gross."

I disagree with the idea though that board comps should be all gross scores as the main event. Most if not all board comps are sponsored by someone - individual or a company. And presumably they are people who want to put something back into the club and maybe, if they are club members themselves, past or present, probably not scratch players themselves.

Let everyone have the chance of getting their names "up in lights" on the clubhouse wall.

You want more board comps to be gross scores only? Pony up and sponsor one yourself - you may get 5% of your club membership playing it, and can hold the prize giving in a phone box

Of course the most prestigious comps should be the scratch ones. No one could deny that. My own club championship is in 3-4 weeks time and there is no doubt the prestigious award goes to the gross champion - but there is still the nett championship runs in parallel and there is still a lot of prestige to whoever wins the nett championship. And over 6-7 years I've been playing in it, the nett champion is often a low single figure handicapper who couldn't quite beat the scratch and + players over 54 holes - but I doubt any of them would turn down the award of the subsidiary championship

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Post by puligny Sun May 24, 2015 12:32 am

Davie - 2 points:
No correction needed, I meant it as it's written.
We all have our views - long live difference!

All our board comps are named, but never heard of one being sponsored. Some of ours (club 125 years old this year) started as scratch but have morphed to handicap first. Very occasionally there is a tenner for lowest gross, but more often not. It just seems imbalanced to me, and wish it was different, like in other sports. Don't however dispute that handicap system has some benefits, not least an arguing point about who is a bandit, handicap snob, or protecting their handicap etc etc.

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Post by raycastleunited Sun May 24, 2015 1:03 am

Pretty sure all the board comps at my last club were scratch comps, except for the match play knock outs. There was usually a handicap prize as well but the comp itself and the trophy that went with it was always scratch.

Chatting to a mate recently was shocked to hear the club championship at his place was a handicap comp. how can a high handicapper, someone like mac for example, become club champion after shooting a round in the 90s?

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Post by Davie Sun May 24, 2015 7:56 am

Sorry puligny - I re-read your first post and now see what you mean Hug

One thing though - you say your board comps aren't sponsored? I don't mean by subsidizing the prize money, but someone must have provided the trophy?

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Post by Davie Sun May 24, 2015 8:02 am

I forgot to reply to ray - quite agree that the Club Champion should be best gross score - but our Club Championship in 3 weeks time also has a nett element with another trophy played for in parallel. I will certainly be playing though have no chance of the main title of course

In fact I just found out yesterday that the format is changing this year in an attempt to get more people to play!

Since the club opened 22 years ago the Club Championship has always been 54 holes over one weekend. 18 holes on Saturday with the top x gross scores going through, along with the top x nett scores not otherwise qualified, for 36 holes on the Sunday

Many people chose not to play because they didn't want to play 3 rounds in two days - especially the older and/or higher handicappers.

This year it has been announced that the nett championship has been cut to 36 holes. So the Saturday night cut will be the same, but the nett championship is decided over the first 36 holes, and only to top gross players will play the 3rd round

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Post by MustPuttBetter Sun May 24, 2015 12:12 pm

I do suspect that the handicap system allows people to become complacent about improving and practising. If you're off 12 (or anything) and you can play to that and are in contention for stablefords and medals there's no real incentive to improve. You can practise your backside off and get to say 9, play to that, you've the same net score and are no more or less in contention than you were.

Without the handicapping system I think the general standard of players would be better
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Post by MustPuttBetter Sun May 24, 2015 12:17 pm

We have been informed about these proposed changes at our club and, as Navy says, the intention to move to a sloping system.

I like that idea as have always held the view that handicaps work within your club. As soon as you start playing other clubs the whole thing is utterly flawed. A 10 handicapper at Wentworth will be miles better than a 10 handicapper at Chobham Golf Club etc. a sloping system would go some way to addressing that.
BUT how the hell are the authorities going to put that system in place? How many thousand courses are there and no ones going to do the surveying type work for free!
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Post by beninho Sun May 24, 2015 7:31 pm

What's a sloping system?

No matter your handicap doesn't everyone just go out to play the best that they can anyway? If that's shooting 100 or 71 then so be it.

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Post by I'm never wrong Sun May 24, 2015 7:49 pm

It,s where a course is graded on its difficulty

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Post by MustPuttBetter Sun May 24, 2015 8:47 pm

beninho wrote:What's a sloping system?

No matter your handicap doesn't everyone just go out to play the best that they can anyway? If that's shooting 100 or 71 then so be it.

Yes.........
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Post by puligny Sun May 24, 2015 9:07 pm

I heard a cautionary tale about the slope system, and initial assessments when in Australia earlier this year. They went to the slope system a couple of years ago, at great expense importIng the computer system to run handicaps from US.
Witnessed some examples where clubs had toughened up courses for the assessment, apparently for the kudos of having a high rating, and that was demonstrably nonsensical. For example, the toughest course in the Perth area is Lake Karinyup, possible that Royal Perth is on a par, but there are several courses locally rated much higher (tougher) on the slope system.
Also someone mentioned 10 handicap at Wentworth worth more than at Chobham. The slope system, as I understand it, would take the 10 handicap, and increase it for both at Wentworth, and potentially reduce it for both at Chobham.
I have some pals going to the European Seniors golf championships later in the year. On previous occasions they have had their handicaps reduced automatically by 2.3 as soon as they set foot in Spain etc. None of them are above 5 to begin with!
I think we need a lot more explanation!


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Post by navyblueshorts Sun May 24, 2015 9:31 pm

MustPuttBetter wrote:We have been informed about these proposed changes at our club and, as Navy says, the intention to move to a sloping system.

I like that idea as have always held the view that handicaps work within your club. As soon as you start playing other clubs the whole thing is utterly flawed. A 10 handicapper at Wentworth will be miles better than a 10 handicapper at Chobham Golf Club etc. a sloping system would go some way to addressing that.
BUT how the hell are the authorities going to put that system in place? How many thousand courses are there and no ones going to do the surveying type work for free!
Apparently, they're already out there sloping (or whatever they call it) the courses.
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Post by navyblueshorts Sun May 24, 2015 9:37 pm

McLaren wrote:Navy

In answering your question I again in agreement with puligny, so what if the same players keep winning.  It's not for a handicapping system to sort that out but the competitors making sure they get better in order to win occasionally.
When you play(ed) with mates (or others) for the beers/whatever do you always insist on playing off scratch? Sorry, but I'd rather play with a variety of people, many of whom have vastly differing golfing abilities, but still have the option of playing for something. Trying to suggest to everyone that's is scratch or nothing is going to thin my options down a lot and is, frankly, daft IMO. each to their own but I know what I prefer.
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Post by MustPuttBetter Sun May 24, 2015 10:30 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
MustPuttBetter wrote:We have been informed about these proposed changes at our club and, as Navy says, the intention to move to a sloping system.

I like that idea as have always held the view that handicaps work within your club. As soon as you start playing other clubs the whole thing is utterly flawed. A 10 handicapper at Wentworth will be miles better than a 10 handicapper at Chobham Golf Club etc. a sloping system would go some way to addressing that.
BUT how the hell are the authorities going to put that system in place? How many thousand courses are there and no ones going to do the surveying type work for free!
Apparently, they're already out there sloping (or whatever they call it) the courses.

Any idea who 'they' are Navy?
I can't imagine the bodies that run golf have enough spare cash to pay for all these courses to be sloped?!
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Post by navyblueshorts Sun May 24, 2015 10:50 pm

Nope. Sorry. No idea. Just what the bods from our place who attended a recent CONGU day were told.
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Post by Davie Sun May 24, 2015 11:01 pm

Is there any good evidence that a 10 h/c at Wentworth is better than a 10 h/c at Chobham? Surely differences like that are meant to be ironed out by the course SSS. I've never played Chobham and only walked Wentworth, but assuming both are par 72, if Chobham is as (relatively) easy as this analogy seems to suggest, surely the SSS at Wentworth is maybe 73-74 and Chobham perhaps 68-69?

So your hypothetical 10 handicappers are shooting 84 at Wentworth and 78 at Chobham

How much does the slope system affect a playing handicap on any given day at a particular course? Can it be as many as 6 shots?

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CONGU changes for 2016 Empty Re: CONGU changes for 2016

Post by puligny Sun May 24, 2015 11:18 pm

Davie - I think you are correct. As I understand the slope system, your handicap is adjusted by the rating of the course, so irrespective of your home club handicap will be adjusted up or down depending on course rating. The Wentworth 10 handicapper will receive extra shots to play Wentworth etc. and lose shots to play a lower rated course (I've never played Chobham, but I'm sure it's wonderful). The system, as our current system, does not discriminate between handicaps based on home club, but varies handicap based on the course you are playing.

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Post by MustPuttBetter Mon May 25, 2015 12:14 am

Davie, Chobham is not notably easy. I just picked it as a local course. I assume there is little doubt it is less difficult than Wentworth. Clearly a 10 at Wentworth is likely to get round Chobham in better than 10. No evidence but I'd have thought fairly indisputable in truth.

SSS adjustments are great but irrelevant to inter club matches no?
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Post by MustPuttBetter Mon May 25, 2015 12:19 am

Puligny, I'm sure you're right but if what you're saying is correct it's madness?! So you have a handicap at your home club but then when you play there that handicap is further adjusted?? Surely you only need adjustment for away courses
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Post by puligny Mon May 25, 2015 12:39 am

MPB - I'm no expert in the slope system, but you go to any club where it operates, there will be a schedule published (usually on the wall by the pro shop) listing all the various playing options (tees) and the Handicap adjustments. It will be defined in great detail, giving the impact by decimal point for all handicaps eg 5.4-6.2 = 8. I've played a number of courses where local members have had their handicaps adjusted in accordance with these schedules - France, Spain, USA, Germany, Australia etc. I'm not suggesting I think it's a smart system - in fact I think it's rank, but that's what happens!

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