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Pro 12 attendances

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed May 27, 2015 10:08 am

First topic message reminder :

Good article here:

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk/editorials/some-stats-on-the-pro12-2014-15-season/


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Post by marty2086 Wed May 27, 2015 11:38 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Heres how!

You quoted 32m as a figure comparable to the AP salary cap, when challenged on possible alternatives you stated no those aren't in it but this is.

Because that's what the IRFU annual report states.

You used the inflated figure for what ever idea your trying push and then when the true figures are pointed out its someone else who has the problem


You've lost me. If the figures I've posted aren't the true figures, then be my guest.........post away.

I'll ask for a 3rd time: How do you think the 32m Euros break down into provincial salary spend?

I've already stated theres no way to be sure of that but typical of you to make out that noone answers your questions

What you posted were the pro rugby expenditure figures which you knew were inflated, you were well aware the 32m was added amounts over the player and management costs that you knew were lower

How do I know this?

Chunky Norwich wrote: Nope. Those are included in a different section. It does include pro coaches however.

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Post by Guest Wed May 27, 2015 11:39 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Fair enough, but they are the owners. Not WRU. As owners does the buck not stop with them? Should the question not be 'why have the owners failed in generating revenue for each of the Regions?'

The largest buck that stops with the owners is to keep the organisations in existence. And they are now. Thanks to the owners, who have spent £40m over the last decade propping welsh pro rugby.

Why should the WRU pay as much as IRFU for teams they do not own? .

Not sure what the question is. The WRU doesn't pay for things they don't own. They do pay suppliers for the product.

Is merely keeping a club in existence all that's expected of the owners? I wouldn't think so. I would expect the owners to strive to be the best. To challenge for the top. To aim to win silverware. To make a club profitable. Just propping up a business by throwing money at it isn't good business.
So I would say the buck should stop with them when it comes to lack of success on all fronts.

Ok, WRU pay the suppliers for the product. A product they don't own, although they are now part owner of some of their assets. So should WRU as a customer pay as much as IRFU who own their product?

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed May 27, 2015 11:41 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Heres how!

You quoted 32m as a figure comparable to the AP salary cap, when challenged on possible alternatives you stated no those aren't in it but this is.

Because that's what the IRFU annual report states.

You used the inflated figure for what ever idea your trying push and then when the true figures are pointed out its someone else who has the problem


You've lost me. If the figures I've posted aren't the true figures, then be my guest.........post away.

I'll ask for a 3rd time: How do you think the 32m Euros break down into provincial salary spend?

I've already stated theres no way to be sure of that but typical of you to make out that noone answers your questions

What you posted were the pro rugby expenditure figures which you knew were inflated, you were well aware the 32m was added amounts over the player and management costs that you knew were lower

How do I know this?

Chunky Norwich wrote: Nope. Those are included in a different section. It does include pro coaches however.

Right, so I reckon minus 1m Euros at the absolute maximum for coaches salaries. Takes us to 30.8m Euros.

Or perhaps because this is "speculation" can we not comment on this type of thing? And Irish player salaries must remain shrouded in mystery for ever more?

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed May 27, 2015 11:44 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Is merely keeping a club in existence all that's expected of the owners? I wouldn't think so.

You wouldn't think so because you have not one shred of insight into the pro rugby landscape in Wales in the last 10 years and how some people have been campaigning to get rid of the scumbag in charge of the game.


I would expect the owners to strive to be the best. To challenge for the top. To aim to win silverware. To make a club profitable. Just propping up a business by throwing money at it isn't good business.
So I would say the buck should stop with them when it comes to lack of success on all fronts.

See above. None of this has even been remotely possible.

Ok, WRU pay the suppliers for the product. A product they don't own, although they are now part owner of some of their assets. So should WRU as a customer pay as much as IRFU who own their product?

Depends what they get from the product, who else is willing to compete for the product etc. What has this got to do with the topic?[/quote]
[/quote]


Last edited by Chunky Norwich on Wed May 27, 2015 11:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by SecretFly Wed May 27, 2015 11:44 pm

32M is Pro Rugby spend - meaning inclusive of all.

You want to pretend that WRU Pro Rugby spend is almost exclusively for International, and that RFU spend would almost be exclusively International and yet, somehow, - somehow - the IRFU do it the other way round and spend almost zilch on International and divide most of their 32M in four and give it to the Provinces?

That's why the comparisons with other Unions matter.  You talked overall Professional Rugby Spend - both RFU and WRU can spend more of their allotted money on International (because allegedly they have Privately owned clubs in their jurisdiction that don't come looking for so much money)

But IRFU have the added burden of owning 4 'Clubs'.  Saracens, Ospreys, Northampton and Dragons for example.... IRFU own those kinda teams.  And from their 32M they therefore fund Provinces AND International.

But you still want some Irish idiot to step up and say "well...let me see... Chunky wants answers. Let me see - 32M divided four ways is 8M. So that's 8M per Province.  8 Million per Province is how it works out, Chunky.  That's your answer"

You want someone to say that.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed May 27, 2015 11:48 pm

SecretFly wrote:32M is Pro Rugby spend - meaning inclusive of all.

You want to pretend that WRU Pro Rugby spend is almost exclusively for International, and that RFU spend would almost be exclusively International and yet, somehow, - somehow - the IRFU do it the other way round and spend almost zilch on International and divide most of their 32M in four and give it to the Provinces?

That's why the comparisons with other Unions matter.  You talked overall Professional Rugby Spend - both RFU and WRU can spend more of their allotted money on International (because allegedly they have Privately owned clubs in their jurisdiction that don't come looking for so much money)

But IRFU have the added burden of owning 4 'Clubs'.  Saracens, Ospreys, Northampton and Dragons for example.... IRFU own those kinda teams.  And from their 32M they therefore fund Provinces AND International.

But you still want some Irish idiot to step up and say "well...let me see... Chunky wants answers.  Let me see - 32M divided four ways is 8M.  So that's 8M per Province.  8 Million per Province is how it works out, Chunky.  That's your answer"

You want someone to say that.

Absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Why are you on about "international"?

The fact that nobody wants to talk about that 32m speaks volumes. More than volumes - complete archives.

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Post by marty2086 Wed May 27, 2015 11:53 pm

Can you tell me what any player earns? Its all shrouded in mystery and laced with speculation

One of your many problems Chunky is that you've a small window view on the world, the heading says player and management costs and unless your in the IRFU or their accountants all you can do is speculate

It could include Joe Schmidt and all his coaches, the coaches for all the provinces, CEOs along with David Nucifora. With the likes of Stuart Lancaster and Steve Hansen on around a million each a year theres no reason to assume Schmidt alone isn't on a comparable salary

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Post by SecretFly Wed May 27, 2015 11:54 pm

IRFU spends 32M on Provinces (4 of them - 8M each) and each AP side dutifully only uses £4M?

Bullschit. Just simply Bullschit. That's what I'm on about. Act confused and disorientated as much as you like.

That's your 32M argument.


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Post by marty2086 Wed May 27, 2015 11:54 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
SecretFly wrote:32M is Pro Rugby spend - meaning inclusive of all.

You want to pretend that WRU Pro Rugby spend is almost exclusively for International, and that RFU spend would almost be exclusively International and yet, somehow, - somehow - the IRFU do it the other way round and spend almost zilch on International and divide most of their 32M in four and give it to the Provinces?

That's why the comparisons with other Unions matter.  You talked overall Professional Rugby Spend - both RFU and WRU can spend more of their allotted money on International (because allegedly they have Privately owned clubs in their jurisdiction that don't come looking for so much money)

But IRFU have the added burden of owning 4 'Clubs'.  Saracens, Ospreys, Northampton and Dragons for example.... IRFU own those kinda teams.  And from their 32M they therefore fund Provinces AND International.

But you still want some Irish idiot to step up and say "well...let me see... Chunky wants answers.  Let me see - 32M divided four ways is 8M.  So that's 8M per Province.  8 Million per Province is how it works out, Chunky.  That's your answer"

You want someone to say that.

Absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Why are you on about "international"?

The fact that nobody wants to talk about that 32m speaks volumes. More than volumes - complete archives.

We have spoken about it and told you that its an inflated figure but you try ignoring that why is that?

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Post by marty2086 Wed May 27, 2015 11:55 pm

SecretFly wrote:IRFU spends 32M on Provinces (4 of them - 8M each) and each AP side dutifully only uses £4M?

Bullschit.  Just simply Bullschit.  That's what I'm on about.  Act confused and disorientated as much as you like.

That's your 32M argument.


thumbsup

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed May 27, 2015 11:59 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
SecretFly wrote:32M is Pro Rugby spend - meaning inclusive of all.

You want to pretend that WRU Pro Rugby spend is almost exclusively for International, and that RFU spend would almost be exclusively International and yet, somehow, - somehow - the IRFU do it the other way round and spend almost zilch on International and divide most of their 32M in four and give it to the Provinces?

That's why the comparisons with other Unions matter.  You talked overall Professional Rugby Spend - both RFU and WRU can spend more of their allotted money on International (because allegedly they have Privately owned clubs in their jurisdiction that don't come looking for so much money)

But IRFU have the added burden of owning 4 'Clubs'.  Saracens, Ospreys, Northampton and Dragons for example.... IRFU own those kinda teams.  And from their 32M they therefore fund Provinces AND International.

But you still want some Irish idiot to step up and say "well...let me see... Chunky wants answers.  Let me see - 32M divided four ways is 8M.  So that's 8M per Province.  8 Million per Province is how it works out, Chunky.  That's your answer"

You want someone to say that.

Absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Why are you on about "international"?

The fact that nobody wants to talk about that 32m speaks volumes. More than volumes - complete archives.

We have spoken about it and told you that its an inflated figure but you try ignoring that why is that?

Ive just referenced that above. Take out the pro coaches value.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu May 28, 2015 12:01 am

SecretFly wrote:IRFU spends 32M on Provinces (4 of them - 8M each) and each AP side dutifully only uses £4M?

Bullschit.  Just simply Bullschit.  That's what I'm on about.  Act confused and disorientated as much as you like.

That's your 32M argument.


You simply can't entertain the thought that your irish sides have more expensive squads than the English can you? It can't be true.

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Post by SecretFly Thu May 28, 2015 12:08 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
SecretFly wrote:IRFU spends 32M on Provinces (4 of them - 8M each) and each AP side dutifully only uses £4M?

Bullschit.  Just simply Bullschit.  That's what I'm on about.  Act confused and disorientated as much as you like.

That's your 32M argument.


You simply can't entertain the thought that your irish sides have more expensive squads than the English can you? It can't be true.

It's not true. Not that it can't be true. It isn't true. You can't live with the thought that your maths keeps getting ripped up and no Irish idiot says the score is 8M per Province.

You listen to every drop of media that comes out of England and you still believe that £4M is written in stone - and that Saracens and Bath will be limited to that figure when contesting the AP final. The two teams under most suspicion reach the final but Chunky still believes a figure of £4M means something solid in England.

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Post by marty2086 Thu May 28, 2015 12:09 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
SecretFly wrote:32M is Pro Rugby spend - meaning inclusive of all.

You want to pretend that WRU Pro Rugby spend is almost exclusively for International, and that RFU spend would almost be exclusively International and yet, somehow, - somehow - the IRFU do it the other way round and spend almost zilch on International and divide most of their 32M in four and give it to the Provinces?

That's why the comparisons with other Unions matter.  You talked overall Professional Rugby Spend - both RFU and WRU can spend more of their allotted money on International (because allegedly they have Privately owned clubs in their jurisdiction that don't come looking for so much money)

But IRFU have the added burden of owning 4 'Clubs'.  Saracens, Ospreys, Northampton and Dragons for example.... IRFU own those kinda teams.  And from their 32M they therefore fund Provinces AND International.

But you still want some Irish idiot to step up and say "well...let me see... Chunky wants answers.  Let me see - 32M divided four ways is 8M.  So that's 8M per Province.  8 Million per Province is how it works out, Chunky.  That's your answer"

You want someone to say that.

Absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Why are you on about "international"?

The fact that nobody wants to talk about that 32m speaks volumes. More than volumes - complete archives.

We have spoken about it and told you that its an inflated figure but you try ignoring that why is that?

Ive just referenced that above. Take out the pro coaches value.

What about the other costs you know are in there? You want me to stick to your one million valuation for coaches?

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Post by marty2086 Thu May 28, 2015 12:11 am

SecretFly wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
SecretFly wrote:IRFU spends 32M on Provinces (4 of them - 8M each) and each AP side dutifully only uses £4M?

Bullschit.  Just simply Bullschit.  That's what I'm on about.  Act confused and disorientated as much as you like.

That's your 32M argument.


You simply can't entertain the thought that your irish sides have more expensive squads than the English can you? It can't be true.

It's not true.  Not that it can't be true.  It isn't true.  You can't live with the thought that your maths keeps getting ripped up and no Irish idiot says the score is 8M per Province.

You listen to every drop of media that comes out of England and you still believe that £4M is written in stone - and that Saracens and Bath will be limited to that figure when contesting the AP final.  The two teams under most suspicion reach the final but Chunky still believes a figure of £4M means something solid in England.

The rules are Chunky can speculate and the rest of us can't even though the AP has as good as admitted that the caps been breached but I'm sure that lacks credibility

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Post by Guest Thu May 28, 2015 12:26 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Is merely keeping a club in existence all that's expected of the owners? I wouldn't think so.

You wouldn't think so because you have not one shred of insight into the pro rugby landscape in Wales in the last 10 years and how some people have been campaigning to get rid of the scumbag in charge of the game.


I would expect the owners to strive to be the best. To challenge for the top. To aim to win silverware. To make a club profitable. Just propping up a business by throwing money at it isn't good business.
So I would say the buck should stop with them when it comes to lack of success on all fronts.

See above. None of this has even been remotely possible.

Ok, WRU pay the suppliers for the product. A product they don't own, although they are now part owner of some of their assets. So should WRU as a customer pay as much as IRFU who own their product?

Depends what they get from the product, who else is willing to compete for the product etc. What has this got to do with the topic?



Munchkin - "Is merely keeping a club in existence all that's expected of the owners? I wouldn't think so."

Chunky - "You wouldn't think so because you have not one shred of insight into the pro rugby landscape in Wales in the last 10 years and how some people have been campaigning to get rid of the scumbag in charge of the game."

You're not answering my question, Chunky. This is the usual line thrown at those outside of Wales who ask questions. Truth is this is baseless assertion. You don't know how much I know about the trials and tribulations of Welsh rugby. I don't know all there is to know, but I have followed it for years and understand more than many of those on Welsh Region forums.

Now answer the question please.


Chunky -  "See above. None of this has even been remotely possible."

So the owners have thrown £40m at a business that can't be successful? Not very wise. Anyway, you haven't really address the point I make. It's just a pat answer in place of something with substance.

Exactly why is it not remotely possible for the owners of the Regions to have made more of a success of those Regions?


Chunky - "Depends what they get from the product, who else is willing to compete for the product etc. What has this got to do with the topic?"

So IRFU should be paying more for the Provinces than WRU do the Regions because they get more from the Provinces than WRU get from the Regions? Seem fair enough, doesn't it? You're also forgetting the fact that the IRFU are paying money into their own product. Unlike the WRU who don't actually own the Regions.

It has plenty to do with the topic. You can hardly bemoan the IRFU paying more money for the Provinces when it is the IRFU which own the Provinces, and even though they own the Provinces they don't really spend much more on the Provinces than WRU do the Regions. There is also the fact that the Regions are privately owned, and those owners of the Regions should also be responsible for ensuring that the Regions operate at a profit.

Now having said all that I do appreciate that it hasn't been easy for welsh rugby. I am not a fan of Lewis, and don't agree at all with how he has handled relationships with the regions owners. I feel for the fans and I do want the best for the Regions. It is just that along with Lewis, those owners are also accountable. This is rarely recognised by those who support the Regions.

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Post by rodders Thu May 28, 2015 9:01 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
SecretFly wrote:IRFU spends 32M on Provinces (4 of them - 8M each) and each AP side dutifully only uses £4M?

Bullschit.  Just simply Bullschit.  That's what I'm on about.  Act confused and disorientated as much as you like.

That's your 32M argument.


You simply can't entertain the thought that your irish sides have more expensive squads than the English can you? It can't be true.

Am I misreading, because I can't be bothered to sift through the gumph but is Chunky suggesting that the entire provincial spend goes on player salaries?

This IRFU fund/subsidies the academies, staff, equipment, facilities - this isn't the figure for player salaries.

The centrally contracted players are paid for by the IRFU (and the NIEs depending what you read), the rest are paid by the province from a combination of IRFU funding and each province individual revenue streams -sponsorship, ticket/merchandise sales, tv money etc.

Bar the central contract players, some of whom are on fairly big salaries(Sexton, Heaslip) but aren't fully available to the provinces, there is no way the provinces have the salary budget of some of the 'richer' premiership teams like Saracens, Bath and Gloucester - that is nonsense.
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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu May 28, 2015 9:23 am

rodders wrote:

Am I misreading, because I can't be bothered to sift through the gumph but is Chunky suggesting that the entire provincial spend goes on player salaries?

This IRFU fund/subsidies the academies, staff, equipment, facilities - this isn't the figure for player salaries.

Yes, you're misreading. The academies, equipment etc is covered elsewhere.Mostly in section 4 of the annual report and the other expenditure's on the same page as the £32m. That is now the 3rd time I have said that.

The centrally contracted players are paid for by the IRFU (and the NIEs depending what you read), the rest are paid by the province from a combination of IRFU funding and each province individual revenue streams -sponsorship, ticket/merchandise sales, tv money etc.

Bar the central contract players, some of whom are on fairly big salaries(Sexton, Heaslip) but aren't fully available to the provinces, there is no way the provinces have the salary budget of some of the 'richer' premiership teams like Saracens, Bath and Gloucester - that is nonsense.
We are talking about the combined salaries of the provinces. So centrally contracted players plus the individual branch spend. I'm afraid the big 3 Irish provinces all spend above the English salary cap. But if you say that on here it's fingers in ears tiem from the Irish.

Pitau - I'd guess the most expensive player in UK - plays in Ireland
Piennar - Turned down 720,000 Euros a year -plays  in Ireand
Sexton - until recently the highest paid player in the world wasn't he? - plays In Ireland

But no, no, no it's the English that have the big squads. It is actually the French squad salaries that we should be comparing the Irish levels to, not the English.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu May 28, 2015 9:29 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
rodders wrote:

Am I misreading, because I can't be bothered to sift through the gumph but is Chunky suggesting that the entire provincial spend goes on player salaries?

This IRFU fund/subsidies the academies, staff, equipment, facilities - this isn't the figure for player salaries.

Yes, you're misreading. The academies, equipment etc is covered elsewhere.Mostly in section 4 of the annual report and the other expenditure's on the same page as the £32m. That is now the 3rd time I have said that.

The centrally contracted players are paid for by the IRFU (and the NIEs depending what you read), the rest are paid by the province from a combination of IRFU funding and each province individual revenue streams -sponsorship, ticket/merchandise sales, tv money etc.

Bar the central contract players, some of whom are on fairly big salaries(Sexton, Heaslip) but aren't fully available to the provinces, there is no way the provinces have the salary budget of some of the 'richer' premiership teams like Saracens, Bath and Gloucester - that is nonsense.
We are talking about the combined salaries of the provinces. So centrally contracted players plus the individual branch spend. I'm afraid the big 3 Irish provinces all spend above the English salary cap. But if you say that on here it's fingers in ears tiem from the Irish.

Pitau - I'd guess the most expensive player in UK - plays in Ireland
Piennar - Turned down 720,000 Euros a year -plays  in Ireand
Sexton - until recently the highest paid player in the world wasn't he? - plays In Ireland

But no, no, no it's the English that have the big squads. It is actually the French squad salaries that we should be comparing the Irish levels to, not the English.

You've named 3 players there Chunky and you don't know any of their salaries.

In fairness no one really knows what the English clubs are paying yet, some may be cheating the cap but currently whispers are being taken as fact.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu May 28, 2015 9:29 am

Munchkin wrote:


Munchkin - "Is merely keeping a club in existence all that's expected of the owners? I wouldn't think so."

Chunky - "You wouldn't think so because you have not one shred of insight into the pro rugby landscape in Wales in the last 10 years and how some people have been campaigning to get rid of the scumbag in charge of the game."

You're not answering my question, Chunky. This is the usual line thrown at those outside of Wales who ask questions. Truth is this is baseless assertion. You don't know how much I know about the trials and tribulations of Welsh rugby. I don't know all there is to know, but I have followed it for years and understand more than many of those on Welsh Region forums.

Now answer the question please.


Chunky -  "See above. None of this has even been remotely possible."

So the owners have thrown £40m at a business that can't be successful? Not very wise. Anyway, you haven't really address the point I make. It's just a pat answer in place of something with substance.

Exactly why is it not remotely possible for the owners of the Regions to have made more of a success of those Regions?


Chunky - "Depends what they get from the product, who else is willing to compete for the product etc. What has this got to do with the topic?"

So IRFU should be paying more for the Provinces than WRU do the Regions because they get more from the Provinces than WRU get from the Regions? Seem fair enough, doesn't it? You're also forgetting the fact that the IRFU are paying money into their own product. Unlike the WRU who don't actually own the Regions.

It has plenty to do with the topic. You can hardly bemoan the IRFU paying more money for the Provinces when it is the IRFU which own the Provinces, and even though they own the Provinces they don't really spend much more on the Provinces than WRU do the Regions. There is also the fact that the Regions are privately owned, and those owners of the Regions should also be responsible for ensuring that the Regions operate at a profit.

Now having said all that I do appreciate that it hasn't been easy for welsh rugby. I am not a fan of Lewis, and don't agree at all with how he has handled relationships with the regions owners. I feel for the fans and I do want the best for the Regions. It is just that along with Lewis, those owners are also accountable. This is rarely recognised by those who support the Regions.

Eugh, this is so futile, it's irrelevant to the current debate. I'm not bemoaning the Irish system, if you think it works for you that's great. I'm bemoaning the fans on here to refuse to accept the fact that Ulster have spent more than £20m since 2012 on some of the best players in the world and won the grand sum of sweet FA - therefore have to be considered one of the biggest failiures in Europe.

As for "Is merely keeping a club in existence all that's expected of the owners?" - The answer is yes. Absolutely. We are lucky to be alive after the head of the WRU tried to shut us all down, so just to still be around is an achievement for the owners and CEOs of the regions.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu May 28, 2015 9:30 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:

In fairness no one really knows what the English clubs are paying yet,

That's not what we are discussing. We are discussing a figure of £4.5m.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Thu May 28, 2015 9:31 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:Eugh, this is so futile, it's irrelevant to the current debate. I'm not bemoaning the Irish system, if you think it works for you that's great. I'm bemoaning the fans on here to refuse to accept the fact that Ulster have spent more than £20m since 2012 on some of the best players in the world and won the grand sum of sweet FA - therefore have to be considered one of the biggest failiures in Europe.

As for "Is merely keeping a club in existence all that's expected of the owners?" - The answer is yes. Absolutely. We are lucky to be alive after the head of the WRU tried to shut us all down, so just to still be around is an achievement for the owners and CEOs of the regions.

That is not true.  Ulster won the Pro12 Fair Play league the other year, I know because their fans have mentioned it a few times this season.
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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu May 28, 2015 9:32 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:Eugh, this is so futile, it's irrelevant to the current debate. I'm not bemoaning the Irish system, if you think it works for you that's great. I'm bemoaning the fans on here to refuse to accept the fact that Ulster have spent more than £20m since 2012 on some of the best players in the world and won the grand sum of sweet FA - therefore have to be considered one of the biggest failiures in Europe.

As for "Is merely keeping a club in existence all that's expected of the owners?" - The answer is yes. Absolutely. We are lucky to be alive after the head of the WRU tried to shut us all down, so just to still be around is an achievement for the owners and CEOs of the regions.

That is not true.  Ulster won the Pro12 Fair Play league the other year.

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

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Post by rodders Thu May 28, 2015 9:33 am

Pienaar took a big cut to stay and Ulster made a special case for him at a time when the IRFU were/are cutting back on salaries for NIE players.

Sexton left in the first place because the IRFU wouldn't match Heaslip's salary (the highest paid Irish player) on 300k euro and reportedly doubled his salary at Metro and has since taken a cut to come back.

If you think any of the provinces has a combined salary on par with Bath or Saracens you are deluded. Some of the other premiership clubs definitely but not the ones breaking the cap.

Remember when Bowe went to Ospreys he was the highest paid player in Europe. It took the provinces/IRFU a number of years to offer comparable salaries to get the likes of Bowe back.
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Post by LordDowlais Thu May 28, 2015 9:36 am

rodders wrote:Sexton left in the first place because the IRFU wouldn't match Heaslip's salary (the highest paid Irish player) on 300k euro and reportedly doubled his salary at Metro and has since taken a cut to come back.

That is bollox, Sexton is having his pay bumped up by a private investor, he will be the highest payed rugby player in B&I if not the world.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu May 28, 2015 9:38 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:

In fairness no one really knows what the English clubs are paying yet,

That's not what we are discussing. We are discussing a figure of £4.5m.

That was for the benefit of those taking it as read that there's certainly cheating; may well be but not proven yet.

Why are you trying to use 3 players to back your argument though when you don't know their salaries?

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Post by rodders Thu May 28, 2015 9:38 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Eugh, this is so futile, it's irrelevant to the current debate. I'm not bemoaning the Irish system, if you think it works for you that's great. I'm bemoaning the fans on here to refuse to accept the fact that Ulster have spent more than £20m since 2012 on some of the best players in the world and won the grand sum of sweet FA - therefore have to be considered one of the biggest failiures in Europe.

As for "Is merely keeping a club in existence all that's expected of the owners?" - The answer is yes. Absolutely. We are lucky to be alive after the head of the WRU tried to shut us all down, so just to still be around is an achievement for the owners and CEOs of the regions.

I'm pretty sure Racing Metro would disagree.

Even if you accept that figure, in the context of Ulster's rivals I wouldn't say that is a fair assessment, as this would be less money than the teams they've lost out to for silverware in this period - i.e. Leinster and Toulon, considerably less in the latter's case.
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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu May 28, 2015 9:39 am

rodders wrote:

If you think any of the provinces has a combined salary on par with Bath or Saracens you are deluded.

For the 5th time. We are discussing the statement:

""the provinces spend about the same as the salary cap in England""

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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu May 28, 2015 9:40 am

rodders wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Eugh, this is so futile, it's irrelevant to the current debate. I'm not bemoaning the Irish system, if you think it works for you that's great. I'm bemoaning the fans on here to refuse to accept the fact that Ulster have spent more than £20m since 2012 on some of the best players in the world and won the grand sum of sweet FA - therefore have to be considered one of the biggest failiures in Europe.

As for "Is merely keeping a club in existence all that's expected of the owners?" - The answer is yes. Absolutely. We are lucky to be alive after the head of the WRU tried to shut us all down, so just to still be around is an achievement for the owners and CEOs of the regions.

I'm pretty sure Racing Metro would disagree.

Why would Racing Metro disagree about Ulster?

Even if you accept that figure, in the context of Ulster's rivals I wouldn't say that is a fair assessment, as this would be less money than the teams they've lost out to for silverware in this period - i.e. Leinster and Toulon, considerably less in the latter's case.

What was Toulon's salary spend for last year?

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Post by rodders Thu May 28, 2015 9:40 am

LordDowlais wrote:
rodders wrote:Sexton left in the first place because the IRFU wouldn't match Heaslip's salary (the highest paid Irish player) on 300k euro and reportedly doubled his salary at Metro and has since taken a cut to come back.

That is bollox, Sexton is having his pay bumped up by a private investor, he will be the highest payed rugby player in B&I if not the world.

Considering Carter is on 1million euros next season and Slammin Sam 800k sterling to play for Baths reserves I doubt that very much.
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Post by SecretFly Thu May 28, 2015 9:42 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
rodders wrote:

If you think any of the provinces has a combined salary on par with Bath or Saracens you are deluded.

For the 5th time. We are discussing the statement:

""the provinces spend about the same as the salary cap in England""

The same.......................... not more.................................

The same.......................... not more................................

It's like that blasted Father Ted sketch

These are small, the ones out there are far away...

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Post by SecretFly Thu May 28, 2015 9:43 am

LordDowlais wrote:
rodders wrote:Sexton left in the first place because the IRFU wouldn't match Heaslip's salary (the highest paid Irish player) on 300k euro and reportedly doubled his salary at Metro and has since taken a cut to come back.

That is bollox, Sexton is having his pay bumped up by a private investor, he will be the highest payed rugby player in B&I if not the world.

Laugh

Him and Blatter, Lord. Him and Blatter. Bond will never get them. They'll rule the World together for eternity.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu May 28, 2015 9:45 am

SecretFly wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
rodders wrote:

If you think any of the provinces has a combined salary on par with Bath or Saracens you are deluded.

For the 5th time. We are discussing the statement:

""the provinces spend about the same as the salary cap in England""

The same.......................... not more.................................

The same.......................... not more................................

It's like that blasted Father Ted sketch

These are small, the ones out there are far away...

What a coincidence. Everybody spends £4.5m.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu May 28, 2015 9:47 am

Does anyone actually know how much each club/province/region spends?

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Post by SecretFly Thu May 28, 2015 9:51 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:

What a coincidence. Everybody spends £4.5m.

You really do act the eejit, Chunky.

I'll rephrase for the affected verbatimists:

ABOUT the same................................. not more.............................
ABOUT the same................................. not more.............................

It's like that blasted Father ted sketch

These are small, the ones out there are far away...


PLUS. It's already a dogs-on-the-street certainty that not everybody spends £4.5M even in the League you worship. Keep ignoring that one though.

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Post by rodders Thu May 28, 2015 9:53 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
rodders wrote:

If you think any of the provinces has a combined salary on par with Bath or Saracens you are deluded.

For the 5th time. We are discussing the statement:

""the provinces spend about the same as the salary cap in England""

Yes but there are a number of teams in England spending way more than the salary cap, everyone knows this. The idea that the provinces can match this, or the French teams is total rubbish.
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Post by SecretFly Thu May 28, 2015 9:53 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Does anyone actually know how much each club/province/region spends?

That's about as clear as the PRL model I'm afraid, 7&1/2. Thus why Chunky can have fun with the possibilities.

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Post by SecretFly Thu May 28, 2015 9:56 am

rodders wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
rodders wrote:

If you think any of the provinces has a combined salary on par with Bath or Saracens you are deluded.

For the 5th time. We are discussing the statement:

""the provinces spend about the same as the salary cap in England""

Yes but there are a number of teams in England spending way more than the salary cap, everyone knows this. The idea that the provinces can match this, or the French teams is total rubbish.

Our very overall Pro Rugby spend proves it. Chunky thinks the IRFU spend £3M more than WRU each year (roughly!) and yet somehow that proves they must be funding the Provinces by something in the line of roughly £4M more each than the PRL salary cap allows it's sides.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu May 28, 2015 9:58 am

rodders wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
rodders wrote:Sexton left in the first place because the IRFU wouldn't match Heaslip's salary (the highest paid Irish player) on 300k euro and reportedly doubled his salary at Metro and has since taken a cut to come back.

That is bollox, Sexton is having his pay bumped up by a private investor, he will be the highest payed rugby player in B&I if not the world.

Considering Carter is on 1million euros next season and Slammin Sam 800k sterling to play for Baths reserves I doubt that very much.

Well considering Sexton turned down €900,000 a year to come back to Leinster I would imagine he would be on more than that at Leinster with his private investor topping his pay up. Apparently Dennis O'Brian is going to make him quite the rich rugby player. Also, Sexton is not the only player receiving private investors topping their pay up, so the 32M that chunky is quoting is not the end of it, the Irish players are getting more money on top of that figure so perhaps the provinces are spending as much as the French on wages. Read here if you do not want to believe me:-

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/european-cup/sexton-agreement-with-denis-o-brien-confirms-irfu-s-strategy-1.1929917

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu May 28, 2015 10:00 am

SecretFly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Does anyone actually know how much each club/province/region spends?

That's about as clear as the PRL model I'm afraid, 7&1/2.  Thus why Chunky can have fun with the possibilities.

Cheers. What I figured by him starting to guess how much people are on.

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Post by rodders Thu May 28, 2015 10:01 am

http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFUAnnualReport201314.pdf


A related theme is the economy of professional rugby which
has seen significant change over the past year or two. The
dominance of the European market, particularly France and
England, has skewed the rugby economy internationally and is a
worry to all. The recent television deal secured by LNR doubled
their television revenues to over e70m and the PRL deal with
BT in the UK has also seen a significant uplift in revenues. This,
together with the fact that both England and France operate
“club benefactor/owner” models where significant private
money can be put into clubs, has resulted in a significant inflation
in salaries available to players in France and England and has
created a movement of players to clubs in those countries
, most
notably high profile players from all around the world to French
clubs. This has put a strain on Unions around the world that
are operating a “centrally Union owned” club or franchise model
and Ireland is no exception
. The Union and our Provinces are
going to find it more difficult to hold players here in Ireland as
salaries in the UK and France inflate more rapidly. The IRFU and
the Provincial Chief Executives are looking at ways in which we
can collectively mitigate this risk.
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Post by LordDowlais Thu May 28, 2015 10:02 am

The provinces spend more money on wages than the IRFU quote in their overall spend.FACT.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu May 28, 2015 10:03 am

rodders wrote:http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFUAnnualReport201314.pdf


A related theme is the economy of professional rugby which
has seen significant change over the past year or two. The
dominance of the European market, particularly France and
England, has skewed the rugby economy internationally and is a
worry to all. The recent television deal secured by LNR doubled
their television revenues to over e70m and the PRL deal with
BT in the UK has also seen a significant uplift in revenues. This,
together with the fact that both England and France operate
“club benefactor/owner” models where significant private
money can be put into clubs, has resulted in a significant inflation
in salaries available to players in France and England and has
created a movement of players to clubs in those countries
, most
notably high profile players from all around the world to French
clubs. This has put a strain on Unions around the world that
are operating a “centrally Union owned” club or franchise model
and Ireland is no exception
. The Union and our Provinces are
going to find it more difficult to hold players here in Ireland as
salaries in the UK and France inflate more rapidly. The IRFU and
the Provincial Chief Executives are looking at ways in which we
can collectively mitigate this risk.

Private money is being put into the provinces as well as funding from the IRFU to the tune of 32m.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu May 28, 2015 10:03 am

rodders wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
rodders wrote:

If you think any of the provinces has a combined salary on par with Bath or Saracens you are deluded.

For the 5th time. We are discussing the statement:

""the provinces spend about the same as the salary cap in England""

Yes but there are a number of teams in England spending way more than the salary cap, everyone knows this. The idea that the provinces can match this, or the French teams is total rubbish.

Perhaps, but that's irrelevant to what we're discussing.

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Post by SecretFly Thu May 28, 2015 10:04 am

LordDowlais wrote: the 32M that chunky is quoting is not the end of it, the Irish players are getting more money on top of that figure so perhaps the provinces are spending as much as the French on wages. Read here if you do not want to believe me:-

Lord you're forgetting that the Regions too will allegedly have more income (being allegedly private concerns) than only WRU. Yes?

So, anyone know if Ospreys publish their accounts?

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Post by SecretFly Thu May 28, 2015 10:06 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Perhaps, but that's irrelevant to what we're discussing.

?

Not if you use a mythical Cap to do your accusing sums.  A thing has to be real before the name of it means anything. We're back to Father Ted.

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Post by rodders Thu May 28, 2015 10:06 am

LordDowlais wrote:The provinces spend more money on wages than the IRFU quote in their overall spend.FACT.

This is a fact - but it is still considerably less than the top English and French clubs and less than the Ospreys a few years ago.

So what exactly is the debate here? That the provinces are in a better financial position than the Welsh regions (true) and/or that they are in an equal position as the financially backed bigger English and French clubs (false)?
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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu May 28, 2015 10:08 am

LordDowlais wrote:The provinces spend more money on wages than the IRFU quote in their overall spend.FACT.

Of course they do. Because the IRFU doesn't pay for all the players on the 4 provinces books.

So you break that £32m down. Lets say 2m is paid for coaches. That leaves 30m. Now it is not evenly split, as Connacht are a development team. So you're looking at alot of money distributed to the big 3. The on top of that you have the provinces spending circa 2.5m Euros on non RFU fned players. Those wage levels are comparable with big spending French and English clubs.

But, no, no this desn't happen and they are all on £4.5m Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu May 28, 2015 10:09 am

rodders wrote:Even if you accept that figure, in the context of Ulster's rivals I wouldn't say that is a fair assessment, as this would be less money than the teams they've lost out to for silverware in this period - i.e. Leinster and Toulon, considerably less in the latter's case.

What was Toulon's salary spend for last year?

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Post by LordDowlais Thu May 28, 2015 10:09 am

rodders wrote:So what exactly is the debate here?

That the Irish provinces work on the same or higher budget than the English salary cap, isn't it ?

I would argue that the Irish provinces spend closer to the French salary cap with all the private investment they are getting, along with the money from the IRFU.

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