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Pro 12 attendances

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed May 27, 2015 10:08 am

First topic message reminder :

Good article here:

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk/editorials/some-stats-on-the-pro12-2014-15-season/


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Post by rodders Wed May 27, 2015 1:13 pm

Given this is an El Nino year and there is higher rainfall than usual that is an impressive stat.
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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Wed May 27, 2015 1:33 pm

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:so we should be celebrating that interest and attendence are on the rise??????

Good God man! Are you insane? That's a ridiculous idea.

Are you in a special class in school? You do know what the words interest and attendance mean don't you? Now run along. there's a good chap.

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Post by marty2086 Wed May 27, 2015 1:34 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
ME-109 wrote:
Do you know what 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 mean and what it means when you have a number bigger than another?

I think you are a bit confuddled.

The Welsh attendances are not the biggest they have been. Thi is disappointing.
The Italian attendances are down. They are a disaster, compare them to 5 years ago.


You've missed the bigger picture and the context in which the whole thing is set, Italys biggest problem is the management and uncertainty surrounding their status in the league and the exodus of players that this lead to has hurt the Italian teams and franchises. Wales and Scotland have also lost a number of top players over the last few years and it hurts the image of the regions.

The Irish teams are at an advantage over their rivals attendance wise in that they don't have direct competitors for fans during the majority of the season, the League of Ireland is a summer league and the All Ireland Championships are run from May to September. Wales, Scotland and Italy have to compete with professional football being played throughout the majority of the season and this hampers their ability to grow brands and attendances.

With the regions and WRU having a relative peace and agreeing the dual contracts, this should help the regions in the long term and hopefully offer short term gains too with bigger names available making the match day experience more appealing to more casual fans.

Next season could be an important one, with the RWC it helps increase the exposure and awareness of the sport with a greater focus on it in all forms of media and its up to the league to capitalise on it. They also need to set in stone the position of the Italian teams and prevent the uncertainty that's surrounded them over the last number of years, it hurts the leagues image and hinders the development of the game in Italy.

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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
ME-109 wrote:
Do you know what 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 mean and what it means when you have a number bigger than another?

I think you are a bit confuddled.

The Welsh attendances are not the biggest they have been. Thi is disappointing.
The Italian attendances are down. They are a disaster, compare them to 5 years ago.


You've missed the bigger picture and the context in which the whole thing is set, Italys biggest problem is the management and uncertainty surrounding their status in the league and the exodus of players that this lead to has hurt the Italian teams and franchises. Wales and Scotland have also lost a number of top players over the last few years and it hurts the image of the regions.

The Irish teams are at an advantage over their rivals attendance wise in that they don't have direct competitors for fans during the majority of the season, the League of Ireland is a summer league and the All Ireland Championships are run from May to September. Wales, Scotland and Italy have to compete with professional football being played throughout the majority of the season and this hampers their ability to grow brands and attendances.

With the regions and WRU having a relative peace and agreeing the dual contracts, this should help the regions in the long term and hopefully offer short term gains too with bigger names available making the match day experience more appealing to more casual fans.

Next season could be an important one, with the RWC it helps increase the exposure and awareness of the sport with a greater focus on it in all forms of media and its up to the league to capitalise on it. They also need to set in stone the position of the Italian teams and prevent the uncertainty that's surrounded them over the last number of years, it hurts the leagues image and hinders the development of the game in Italy.
Away out of here with your strange concepts of "logic" and "reason" There is no place for you.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Wed May 27, 2015 1:39 pm

This thread has degenerated quite rapidly.


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Post by marty2086 Wed May 27, 2015 1:44 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
ME-109 wrote:
Do you know what 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 mean and what it means when you have a number bigger than another?

I think you are a bit confuddled.

The Welsh attendances are not the biggest they have been. Thi is disappointing.
The Italian attendances are down. They are a disaster, compare them to 5 years ago.


You've missed the bigger picture and the context in which the whole thing is set, Italys biggest problem is the management and uncertainty surrounding their status in the league and the exodus of players that this lead to has hurt the Italian teams and franchises. Wales and Scotland have also lost a number of top players over the last few years and it hurts the image of the regions.

The Irish teams are at an advantage over their rivals attendance wise in that they don't have direct competitors for fans during the majority of the season, the League of Ireland is a summer league and the All Ireland Championships are run from May to September. Wales, Scotland and Italy have to compete with professional football being played throughout the majority of the season and this hampers their ability to grow brands and attendances.

With the regions and WRU having a relative peace and agreeing the dual contracts, this should help the regions in the long term and hopefully offer short term gains too with bigger names available making the match day experience more appealing to more casual fans.

Next season could be an important one, with the RWC it helps increase the exposure and awareness of the sport with a greater focus on it in all forms of media and its up to the league to capitalise on it. They also need to set in stone the position of the Italian teams and prevent the uncertainty that's surrounded them over the last number of years, it hurts the leagues image and hinders the development of the game in Italy.
Away out of here with your strange concepts of "logic" and "reason" There is no place for you.

I thought Id try a different tact before handbags came out boxing Whistle

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Wed May 27, 2015 1:47 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:This thread has degenerated quite rapidly.



What like after one post?
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Post by RDW Wed May 27, 2015 2:00 pm

Pro 12 attendances  - Page 2 Calmdown

I'm happy for this thread to carry on if

A) the discussions are on Pro 12 attendances and what this means for the league

And that's it. Anything else will just lead to another thread being locked unfortunately.

I hope people understand that it is quite a difficult job to be a volunteer moderator on internet rugby forum. I'm fairly sure most of the mods do it because they want to help the place be a pleasant place to discuss rugby (despite all the 'power hungry mods' comments).

We can either ban absolutely anything that could be seen as ever so slightly offensive, in which case the 'power hungry mod' remarks come out, or we can give people a bit of slack in the hope that sensible discussion breaks out eventually.

The problem is that everyone's tolerance of offence is different, which is absolutely fine. It does however make it difficult to judge. We also have jobs and other priorities so by the time something crops up on the forum it often leads to a well established thread (like this one) - we can't be at immediate beck and call.

As you were...


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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Wed May 27, 2015 2:06 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:This thread has degenerated quite rapidly.



What like after one post?

To be fair Scarlet I think you are getting overly defensive here.

The bulk of threads Chunky starts appear to be digs at the Pro12 and for some unknown reason the money associated with the league.

I recall a previous post, (a total non story) which managed to roll on for quite some time with pointless bickering about how revenue translates to success etc and to be honest it got a bit dull.

As ladyboy pointed out some of Chunky's posts about Ireland being "a despicable rugby nation" with no grounding in facts or evidence is a bit over the top too.

However you leap to the defense of Chunky who on other threads has said some pretty awful things without even an attempt at humor. He basically set out to insult an entire rugby nation based on no evidence.

I'm not sure where you are going with your defense of Chunky especially taking into account things he has said on other threads.

When you post on a forum you have to get a nice thick skin, but don't forget your sense of humor.

The differances between Chunky's post and Ladyboys post is huge.

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Post by Guest Wed May 27, 2015 2:10 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
rodders wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:This forum is going to the dogs, it is being ruined by the Irish mafia we have on here, if were dare to disagree with them, or say something they do not like then there is WW3. I haven noticed certain moderators only moderating what and when they see fit.

By "we" are you referring to the Welsh exclusively or are you assuming everyone non-Irish is anti Pro12 and in favor of non-to-subtle trolling to wind up pro12 supporters?

No I refer to everybody, only last week I was involved in a debate that the mafia were having with the English and telling them about their leagues salary cap and how their sides were cheating it, what the feck has the English league got to do with us ? If their teams want to cheat it then let them, also when I pointed out the provinces spent just as much on wages, guess what, WW3.

I haven't checked but weren't you also involved in that debate, and weren't you also against this alleged abuse of the salary cap?


Last edited by Munchkin on Wed May 27, 2015 2:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Wed May 27, 2015 2:11 pm

Radge, I don't agree to be honest. It is perspective I think, calling an entire nation "a despicable rugby nation" is no worse than posting about a nation having 'natural overlords'. But it seems it is something I alone have an issue with. But I shall heed the warning that has been given out, and 'grow up' and walk away.
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Post by marty2086 Wed May 27, 2015 2:14 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:This thread has degenerated quite rapidly.



What like after one post?

To be fair Scarlet I think you are getting overly defensive here.

The bulk of threads Chunky starts appear to be digs at the Pro12 and for some unknown reason the money associated with the league.

I recall a previous post, (a total non story) which managed to roll on for quite some time with pointless bickering about how revenue translates to success etc and to be honest it got a bit dull.

As ladyboy pointed out some of Chunky's posts about Ireland being "a despicable rugby nation" with no grounding in facts or evidence is a bit over the top too.

However you leap to the defense of Chunky who on other threads has said some pretty awful things without even an attempt at humor. He basically set out to insult an entire rugby nation based on no evidence.

I'm not sure where you are going with your defense of Chunky especially taking into account things he has said on other threads.

When you post on a forum you have to get a nice thick skin, but don't forget your sense of humor.

The differances between Chunky's post and Ladyboys post is huge.


In Chunkys defence when he's asked to back up his claims he does tell us to find it ourselves Erm

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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Wed May 27, 2015 2:19 pm

When someone constantly winds people up and starts threads aimed at winding up. (which this thread is not especially, there have been way worse ones) You can do 4 things.

1/ Get your knickers in a twist as the person wuming wants you to.

2/ Ignore it.

3/ Wum back and be just as ridiculous.

4/ Have a laugh.

I tend to go with 2 and 4 mainly with a bit of 3 on occasion.

Life's too short.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed May 27, 2015 2:20 pm

Munchkin wrote:I haven't checked but weren't you also involved in that debate, and weren't you also against this alleged abuse of the salary cap?

Not once did I say I was against anybody breaking the salary cap. I did say it has nothing to do with me, and I did say I do not care if the English teams do it in their own league, I did also say that it was obvious that Sarries and Bath were breaking it, and I also pointed out that the Irish sides spend the same so who are they to have a go at anyone, and that is when WW3 started.

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Post by SecretFly Wed May 27, 2015 2:22 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Radge, I don't agree to be honest.  It is perspective I think, calling an entire nation "a despicable rugby nation" is no worse than posting about a nation having 'natural overlords'.  But it seems it is something I alone have an issue with.  But I shall heed the warning that has been given out, and 'grow up' and walk away.

I'd say it's a good bet that one came before the other???  

Thus the 'other' would be a retort and perhaps logically justified as such? - No?

Plus one is in inverted commas (Chunky's wasn't) - denoting Chunky's very own attitude that the Welsh, Irish and Scottish can't survive in this world without going with the begging cap to their betters in England (PRL) - who do everything right in rugby and above board in a legal manner.........................................!  - Yeah.  Whistle

So... again, heavy irony and sarcasm is missed on those that don't have the eyes to see it.

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Post by marty2086 Wed May 27, 2015 2:24 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:I haven't checked but weren't you also involved in that debate, and weren't you also against this alleged abuse of the salary cap?

Not once did I say I was against anybody breaking the salary cap. I did say it has nothing to do with me, and I did say I do not care if the English teams do it in their own league, I did also say that it was obvious that Sarries and Bath were breaking it, and I also pointed out that the Irish sides spend the same so who are they to have a go at anyone, and that is when WW3 started.

Wheres the proof that the Irish sides spend the same?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed May 27, 2015 2:25 pm

It's obvious the Welsh are cheats LD. I don't need proof of that just say it enough times and it becomes fact. (tongue in cheek).

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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Wed May 27, 2015 2:39 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:I haven't checked but weren't you also involved in that debate, and weren't you also against this alleged abuse of the salary cap?

Not once did I say I was against anybody breaking the salary cap. I did say it has nothing to do with me, and I did say I do not care if the English teams do it in their own league, I did also say that it was obvious that Sarries and Bath were breaking it, and I also pointed out that the Irish sides spend the same so who are they to have a go at anyone, and that is when WW3 started.

Wheres the proof that the Irish sides spend the same?

There is none. But don't let that stop people quoting something they read on the back of a toilet door when they were drunk.

No one actually knows how much is spent on the Provinces wage bill as it is impossible do separate from the general spend of the IRFU on everything. Complex arrangements with Central contracts, Gate receipts etc.

You can make an educated guess for sure, but that's all it is. Mine is that the provinces spend about the same as the salary cap in England. Possibly less now that the Euro has fallen.

People with other agendas will tell you it is more, or less etc.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed May 27, 2015 2:58 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:You can make an educated guess for sure, but that's all it is. Mine is that the provinces spend about the same as the salary cap in England.

That is the same as mine.

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Post by Guest Wed May 27, 2015 3:03 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:I haven't checked but weren't you also involved in that debate, and weren't you also against this alleged abuse of the salary cap?

Not once did I say I was against anybody breaking the salary cap. I did say it has nothing to do with me, and I did say I do not care if the English teams do it in their own league, I did also say that it was obvious that Sarries and Bath were breaking it, and I also pointed out that the Irish sides spend the same so who are they to have a go at anyone, and that is when WW3 started.

Neither did any of the Irish.

You're such a hypocrite, LD. You did say it was nothing to do with you, but you stuck your oar in anyway, and you did stick your oar in about PRL and the salary cap.

Here's a few quotes from you not getting involved in the salary cap debate:


"It was all speculation when we were saying that they would end up wanting to scrap the salary cap, look what is happening now, also, when we said they would want to scrap relegation, there have been rumblings about that as well. "

"I aint clogging anything up, I reckon Saracens and Bath are both cheating the English league, I think that is obvious, but why are the Irish on here preaching to them about it when their provinces spend more ? "

"I said this before, when the row over Europe was erupting, and I will say this again, the next thing that will be the subject of attack will be the 6N. The clubs/PRL/LNR are getting too big for their boots, more money means more power, they will try and dictate when the 6N should be played so that it does not affect the clubs, and they will start influencing what players the national squad can use, they will then start demanding more money from the 6N as it uses "their" players and they have a bigger audience blah, blah, blah. They will destroy European rugby."

"Fair enough, onwards and upwards, lets drag the PLR through this as well"

"I was trying to be sarcastic, but it is the PLR way isn't it, and people like Chunky want to jump into bed with these gangsters.

"For me the trend is as clear as day,the only clubs that can compete with the French, are the clubs with enough money to spend as much as them, it is of no secret why Leinster were there or there about's, they have a massive budget to work off, and that for me is why Saracens were there or there about's, because it is obvious that they are spending more than they are supposed to so that they can compete with the big spending French."

"Look,it makes no difference to me whether English clubs are cheating within their own set-up, but what does bother me is why people would like to get involved with this gangster esque philosophy that is the PRL."

"I am just popping in to point out a few things. Firstly it is no surprise who won the CC this year, and who was in the final with them, the biggest spenders are the French. Now, to compete with the French you need to be spending if not as much as them, then more than most just to be closer to them. What other two teams were in the semi finals ? Saracens and Leinster. Now we all know that Leinster have a bigger budget than most teams outside of France, thus there was no surprise to see them in the SF, so for Saracens to be in the SF then for me it must go to show that they have at least the same budget as Leinster, which is above the English salary cap. So for me it is of no surprise that Saracens are being accused of breaking the English rules."

"That one says that Priestland will be on 300k per year.

This one says that Burgess is on 500k per year:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/10645003/England-coach-Stuart-Lancaster-backs-Sam-Burgess-to-challenge-for-World-Cup-squad.html

I know they are only newspapers, but unless I either ask the players themselves or look at Baths wage bill, that is all I have to go by, that is why I used the words reportedly. OK"

"Where are all the people who were supporting the PRL during the European fight ? Are they still going to stand by them over this ?"

For someone who accuses the Irish of sticking their noses into the AP salary cap saga, and having a go at the AP/PRL, you really do go out of your way to stick your nose in the AP salary cap saga and have a go at the PRL, as well as those clubs accused of cheating........


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Post by SecretFly Wed May 27, 2015 3:03 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:You can make an educated guess for sure, but that's all it is. Mine is that the provinces spend about the same as the salary cap in England.

That is the same as mine.

That's a fair whack below some of the teams in England Wink

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Post by LordDowlais Wed May 27, 2015 3:14 pm

Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:I haven't checked but weren't you also involved in that debate, and weren't you also against this alleged abuse of the salary cap?

Not once did I say I was against anybody breaking the salary cap. I did say it has nothing to do with me, and I did say I do not care if the English teams do it in their own league, I did also say that it was obvious that Sarries and Bath were breaking it, and I also pointed out that the Irish sides spend the same so who are they to have a go at anyone, and that is when WW3 started.

Neither did any of the Irish.

You're such a hypocrite, LD. You did say it was nothing to do with you, but you stuck your oar in anyway, and you did stick your oar in about PRL and the salary cap.

Here's a few quotes from you not getting involved in the salary cap debate:


"It was all speculation when we were saying that they would end up wanting to scrap the salary cap, look what is happening now, also, when we said they would want to scrap relegation, there have been rumblings about that as well. "

"I aint clogging anything up, I reckon Saracens and Bath are both cheating the English league, I think that is obvious, but why are the Irish on here preaching to them about it when their provinces spend more ? "

"I said this before, when the row over Europe was erupting, and I will say this again, the next thing that will be the subject of attack will be the 6N. The clubs/PRL/LNR are getting too big for their boots, more money means more power, they will try and dictate when the 6N should be played so that it does not affect the clubs, and they will start influencing what players the national squad can use, they will then start demanding more money from the 6N as it uses "their" players and they have a bigger audience blah, blah, blah. They will destroy European rugby."

"Fair enough, onwards and upwards, lets drag the PLR through this as well"

"I was trying to be sarcastic, but it is the PLR way isn't it, and people like Chunky want to jump into bed with these gangsters.

"For me the trend is as clear as day,the only clubs that can compete with the French, are the clubs with enough money to spend as much as them, it is of no secret why Leinster were there or there about's, they have a massive budget to work off, and that for me is why Saracens were there or there about's, because it is obvious that they are spending more than they are supposed to so that they can compete with the big spending French."

"Look,it makes no difference to me whether English clubs are cheating within their own set-up, but what does bother me is why people would like to get involved with this gangster esque philosophy that is the PRL."

"I am just popping in to point out a few things. Firstly it is no surprise who won the CC this year, and who was in the final with them, the biggest spenders are the French. Now, to compete with the French you need to be spending if not as much as them, then more than most just to be closer to them. What other two teams were in the semi finals ? Saracens and Leinster. Now we all know that Leinster have a bigger budget than most teams outside of France, thus there was no surprise to see them in the SF, so for Saracens to be in the SF then for me it must go to show that they have at least the same budget as Leinster, which is above the English salary cap. So for me it is of no surprise that Saracens are being accused of breaking the English rules."

"That one says that Priestland will be on 300k per year.

This one says that Burgess is on 500k per year:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/10645003/England-coach-Stuart-Lancaster-backs-Sam-Burgess-to-challenge-for-World-Cup-squad.html

I know they are only newspapers, but unless I either ask the players themselves or look at Baths wage bill, that is all I have to go by, that is why I used the words reportedly. OK"

"Where are all the people who were supporting the PRL during the European fight ? Are they still going to stand by them over this ?"

For someone who accuses the Irish of sticking their noses into the AP salary cap saga, and having a go at the AP/PRL, you really do go out of your way to stick your nose in the AP salary cap saga and have a go at the PRL, as well as those clubs accused of cheating........


Most of them were responses though. responses to questions I WAS ASKED ON THAT THREAD.

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Post by Guest Wed May 27, 2015 3:23 pm

Laugh

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed May 27, 2015 3:33 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

You can make an educated guess for sure, but that's all it is. Mine is that the provinces spend about the same as the salary cap in England. Possibly less now that the Euro has fallen.

.

Where do you get that figure from, given that the IRFU spends circa 32m Euros on pro rugby? Plus each branch puts in a few million quid on pro players?

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Post by GoodinTightSpaces Wed May 27, 2015 3:36 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

You can make an educated guess for sure, but that's all it is. Mine is that the provinces spend about the same as the salary cap in England. Possibly less now that the Euro has fallen.

.

Where do you get that figure from, given that the IRFU spends circa 32m Euros on pro rugby? Plus each branch puts in a few million quid on pro players?

Same place you get your info from. he reached around a plucked them from the delpts of where the sun dont shine

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed May 27, 2015 3:41 pm

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

You can make an educated guess for sure, but that's all it is. Mine is that the provinces spend about the same as the salary cap in England. Possibly less now that the Euro has fallen.

.

Where do you get that figure from, given that the IRFU spends circa 32m Euros on pro rugby? Plus each branch puts in a few million quid on pro players?

Same place you get your info from. he reached around a plucked them from the delpts of where the sun dont shine

The IRFU annual report?

Righto.

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Post by GoodinTightSpaces Wed May 27, 2015 3:44 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
GoodinTightSpaces wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

You can make an educated guess for sure, but that's all it is. Mine is that the provinces spend about the same as the salary cap in England. Possibly less now that the Euro has fallen.

.

Where do you get that figure from, given that the IRFU spends circa 32m Euros on pro rugby? Plus each branch puts in a few million quid on pro players?

Same place you get your info from. he reached around a plucked them from the delpts of where the sun dont shine

The IRFU annual report?

Righto.

i was actually talking about a planet in outer space. Uranus

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Post by marty2086 Wed May 27, 2015 3:44 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

You can make an educated guess for sure, but that's all it is. Mine is that the provinces spend about the same as the salary cap in England. Possibly less now that the Euro has fallen.

.

Where do you get that figure from, given that the IRFU spends circa 32m Euros on pro rugby? Plus each branch puts in a few million quid on pro players?

The 2013/14 annul report states

The Union and our Provinces are going to find it more difficult to hold players here in Ireland as salaries in the UK and France inflate more rapidly. The IRFU and the provincial Chief Executives are looking at ways in which we can collectively mitigate this risk.

This would indicate the IRFU are keeping pace with England and France or just lagging behind but are set to fall behind if the status quo continues.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed May 27, 2015 3:49 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

You can make an educated guess for sure, but that's all it is. Mine is that the provinces spend about the same as the salary cap in England. Possibly less now that the Euro has fallen.

.

Where do you get that figure from, given that the IRFU spends circa 32m Euros on pro rugby? Plus each branch puts in a few million quid on pro players?

The 2013/14 annul report states

The Union and our Provinces are going to find it more difficult to hold players here in Ireland as salaries in the UK and France inflate more rapidly. The IRFU and the provincial Chief Executives are looking at ways in which we can collectively mitigate this risk.

This would indicate the IRFU are keeping pace with England and France or just lagging behind but are set to fall behind if the status quo continues.

That indicates that the English and French tv deals mean they'll have a shed load more money. There are no figures in there to back up the claim that the Irish spend about as much as the English salary cap (£4.5m)

I however, have provided a figure published in the IRFU annual accounts (31.8m Euros).

Bit of a difference in credibility.

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Post by marty2086 Wed May 27, 2015 3:50 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

You can make an educated guess for sure, but that's all it is. Mine is that the provinces spend about the same as the salary cap in England. Possibly less now that the Euro has fallen.

.

Where do you get that figure from, given that the IRFU spends circa 32m Euros on pro rugby? Plus each branch puts in a few million quid on pro players?

Who said the provinces put extra towards players? From the IRFU report it appears to cover the whole game and not just the top end

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Post by marty2086 Wed May 27, 2015 3:51 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

You can make an educated guess for sure, but that's all it is. Mine is that the provinces spend about the same as the salary cap in England. Possibly less now that the Euro has fallen.

.

Where do you get that figure from, given that the IRFU spends circa 32m Euros on pro rugby? Plus each branch puts in a few million quid on pro players?

The 2013/14 annul report states

The Union and our Provinces are going to find it more difficult to hold players here in Ireland as salaries in the UK and France inflate more rapidly. The IRFU and the provincial Chief Executives are looking at ways in which we can collectively mitigate this risk.

This would indicate the IRFU are keeping pace with England and France or just lagging behind but are set to fall behind if the status quo continues.

That indicates that the English and French tv deals mean they'll have a shed load more money. There are no figures in there to back up the claim that the Irish spend about as much as the English salary cap (£4.5m)

I however, have provided a figure published in the IRFU annual accounts (31.8m Euros).

Bit of a difference in credibility.

its from the same furious source so how can yours be more credible? You say the provinces top up the money with nothing backing it up, that's opinion just as was my conclusion yet based on the quote

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed May 27, 2015 3:54 pm

marty2086 wrote:

its from the same  furious  source so how can yours be more credible?

Because one quotes a figure, for goodness sake.

You say the provinces top up the money with nothing backing it up, that's opinion just as was my conclusion yet based on the quote

Ok, assume that there is no top up (which there is) run me through how the 32m Euros "might" be spent.

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Post by profitius Wed May 27, 2015 3:57 pm

picard


So theres positive news re attendances but some Cardiff RFC fan has to write an article to put a negative spin on it! The positive news is like Dracula being caught out in daylight for some.


Lets look at the post. It shows that since the first season 03-04, Welsh attendances have gone up over 50%. Irish attendances have nearly tripled.

Scottish attendances are on the up with Glasgow leading the charge there. Interesting that they sold out their last 2 games so it could have been higher.

The Italian attendances have steadily got worse but thats to be expected.

This season has been a big success. The league has remained competitive up to the last day and there were plenty of twists and turns. Glasgow and Ospreys continue to improve while Connacht have moved from being a bottom team to a mid table team.

What this season will have done is create a feel good factor that will carry over into next season and I expect attendances to be higher again next season.

Theres great scope there for teams like Cardiff, Edinburgh and the Italians to get much higher attendances if they get their act together, especially Cardiff. Success does not guarantee attendances but it does help and remember that going to matches is a habit people get into.
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Post by marty2086 Wed May 27, 2015 4:09 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

its from the same  furious  source so how can yours be more credible?

Because one quotes a figure, for goodness sake.

You say the provinces top up the money with nothing backing it up, that's opinion just as was my conclusion yet based on the quote

Ok, assume that there is no top up (which there is) run me through how the 32m Euros "might" be spent.

One quotes a figure with no breakdown or context, the quote is a reference to the landscape that the IRFU face. Firstly I doubt the IRFU want to be giving the relevant figures in that case but Im sure they can speak from experience from contract negotiations the difficulty they face in meeting the financial demands of players.

Im not saying either is more credible than the other as both lack sufficient detail but provide an insight, you seem to think that because ones a figure its a full picture. I deal with figures daily and trust me its meaningless without knowing what exactly Pro Rugby expenditure is. This may or may not include the test squad, Wolfhounds, U20s, provincial salaries, coaches across the pro game, travel for teams and academies (which if Im not mistaken are not included in the AP salary cap).

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed May 27, 2015 4:13 pm

marty2086 wrote:

Im not saying either is more credible than the other as both lack sufficient detail but provide an insight, you seem to think that because ones a figure its a full picture. I deal with figures daily and trust me its meaningless without knowing what exactly Pro Rugby expenditure is. This may or may not include the test squad, Wolfhounds, U20s, provincial salaries, coaches across the pro game, travel for teams and academies (which if Im not mistaken are not included in the AP salary cap).

Nope. Those are included in a different section. It does include pro coaches however.


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Post by SecretFly Wed May 27, 2015 4:14 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

its from the same  furious  source so how can yours be more credible?

Because one quotes a figure, for goodness sake.

You say the provinces top up the money with nothing backing it up, that's opinion just as was my conclusion yet based on the quote

Ok, assume that there is no top up (which there is) run me through how the 32m Euros "might" be spent.

Let's first get an idea of the terrain.

How much does WRU spend per year? How much does the RFU spend? Do we know?


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Post by marty2086 Wed May 27, 2015 4:30 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Im not saying either is more credible than the other as both lack sufficient detail but provide an insight, you seem to think that because ones a figure its a full picture. I deal with figures daily and trust me its meaningless without knowing what exactly Pro Rugby expenditure is. This may or may not include the test squad, Wolfhounds, U20s, provincial salaries, coaches across the pro game, travel for teams and academies (which if Im not mistaken are not included in the AP salary cap).

Nope. Those are included in a different section. It does include pro coaches however.


You see Chunky this why people are sceptical of your posts, you knew what was included in the figures but failed to include the correct figure

The breakdown of the costs are

Professional game costs
2013/14 2012/13 2011/12
€ € €
National tours, camps and squads 789,970 925,888 255,830
National match costs 3,172,874 2,717,260 2,549,988
Player and management costs 27,908,170 28,576,706 28,648,479
31,871,014 32,219,854 31,454,297

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Post by Notch Wed May 27, 2015 5:07 pm

i would be perfectly happy for all Irish provinces to introduce a salary cap linked to the English one, with the proviso that all payments that come directly from the IRFU to top-up the centrally contracted players salaries are excluded from the cap. i.e the amount that Leinster pay towards Heaslips salary is covered in the salary cap, the amount that the IRFU pay is not.

Why should the IRFUs contribution be excluded? Because the IRFU also to veto all provincial signings and imposes a strict limit on NIQ players. That is the disadvantage of working under a Union system, the IRFU contributing to players salaries is the advantage. Having the IRFU contribute towards the wages of internationals outside any cap is balanced out by not being able to pick them if the IRFU deems they should be rested in any given week and not being able to act freely in the transfer market.

In the long-term it would be good to have a salary cap of that nature in the Pro12, but in the short-term the cap needed to avoid the provinces becoming uncompetitive with the English and French would probably be higher than other teams in the league could reach anyway.
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Post by ME-109 Wed May 27, 2015 5:48 pm

Without wanting to be pedantic with regards to chunks wasnt it a "disgusting rugby nation" rather than despicable?

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Post by SecretFly Wed May 27, 2015 5:56 pm

Yes, I believe it was.

But that's the Irish for you; getting the facts wrong - again.

Meanwhile - a bunch more Sunday games next season I see.  The Dragons must have lost the arguments again against the big bully boys of S4C.

Question: Is the Welsh Language Channel ruining Pro12 by using its buying power to influence the Pro12 calendar?

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Post by thebandwagonsociety Wed May 27, 2015 6:23 pm

SecretFly wrote:Yes, I believe it was.

But that's the Irish for you; getting the facts wrong - again.

Meanwhile - a bunch more Sunday games next season I see.  The Dragons must have lost the arguments again against the big bully boys of S4C.

Question: Is the Welsh Language Channel ruining Pro12 by using its buying power to influence the Pro12 calendar?

Is the schedule out for next year? Or the tv rights split announced?

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed May 27, 2015 6:25 pm

SecretFly wrote:

Meanwhile - a bunch more Sunday games next season I see.  The Dragons must have lost the arguments again against the big bully boys of S4C.

Question: Is the Welsh Language Channel ruining Pro12 by using its buying power to influence the Pro12 calendar?

The tv rights aren't negotiated every year.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed May 27, 2015 6:26 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Im not saying either is more credible than the other as both lack sufficient detail but provide an insight, you seem to think that because ones a figure its a full picture. I deal with figures daily and trust me its meaningless without knowing what exactly Pro Rugby expenditure is. This may or may not include the test squad, Wolfhounds, U20s, provincial salaries, coaches across the pro game, travel for teams and academies (which if Im not mistaken are not included in the AP salary cap).

Nope. Those are included in a different section. It does include pro coaches however.


You see Chunky this why people are sceptical of your posts, you knew what was included in the figures but failed to include the correct figure

The breakdown of the costs are

Professional game costs
                                                2013/14      2012/13    2011/12
                                                      €                €              €
National tours, camps and squads 789,970      925,888    255,830
National match costs                   3,172,874  2,717,260   2,549,988
Player and management costs     27,908,170 28,576,706 28,648,479
                                                31,871,014 32,219,854 31,454,297
I've just quoted the 31.8m figure for last year. How you can be sceptical of that probably says more about your mindset than mine.

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Post by SecretFly Wed May 27, 2015 6:30 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
SecretFly wrote:

Meanwhile - a bunch more Sunday games next season I see.  The Dragons must have lost the arguments again against the big bully boys of S4C.

Question: Is the Welsh Language Channel ruining Pro12 by using its buying power to influence the Pro12 calendar?

The tv rights aren't negotiated every year.

So you won't be complaining about Sundays next season? That's settled at least.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed May 27, 2015 6:31 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Let's first get an idea of the terrain.

How much does WRU spend per year?  How much does the RFU spend?  Do we know?


I don't really understand how that has anything to do with what we are talking about. But for the record, I make it:

RFU= £13.75m
IRFU= £11.8m
WRU = £8.7m

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed May 27, 2015 6:32 pm

SecretFly wrote:

So you won't be complaining about Sundays next season?

Why not?

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Post by SecretFly Wed May 27, 2015 6:32 pm

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Is the schedule out for next year? Or the tv rights split announced?

The schedule is out yes.

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Post by SecretFly Wed May 27, 2015 6:33 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
SecretFly wrote:

So you won't be complaining about Sundays next season?

Why not?

So you will be complaining about Sundays next season? That's settled at least.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed May 27, 2015 6:34 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
SecretFly wrote:

So you won't be complaining about Sundays next season?

Why not?

So you will be complaining about Sundays next season?  That's settled at least.

Of course. It's called standing up for what you believe in. You lot should know all about it.

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Post by SecretFly Wed May 27, 2015 6:57 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Let's first get an idea of the terrain.

How much does WRU spend per year?  How much does the RFU spend?  Do we know?


I don't really understand how that has anything to do with what we are talking about. But for the record, I make it:

RFU= £13.75m
IRFU= £11.8m
WRU = £8.7m

If you don't understand what other Unions spend on their Pro Rugby has to do with working out what the IRFU spend, and why, then I'm not the man to explain such an elementary point to you.

That's strange about Wales though.  I see them allocating to Regions alone - Regions alone - £17 million in 2014. (Their own accounts page)

Am I wrong?  Am I reading it wrong?  If I'm right then how much more goes into International?

So try again on them and their overall spending on Pro Rugby.

RFU too - they spend less on Pro Rugby per year than the WRU spend on Regions alone?

Try again with them too.  I have £44M

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