England v New Zealand, Headingley 29th May to 2nd June

First topic message reminder :

After an England win that for much of the first four days looked unlikely we move up to Leeds for round 2.

England have added Plunkett to the squad either as cover for Wood, who has a poor fitness record, or maybe because the senior seamers may be a touch tired. Very much doubt we will see any changes to the starting XI however. Selectors will be hoping that Adam Lyth can get some runs at his home ground as lord alone knows where they go next. Lyth and Ballance will both be hoping to be in the runs - and England need them to as you cannot keep losing 3 or 4 cheap top order wickets.

New Zealand have their own issues. Anderson and Watling have caused the physios some concern, Craig did not look like an internationalk spinner and with Anderson's issues the 3 main seamers were perhaps overbowled.

Play might not restart any time soon. That would mean a serious dent in England's chances of producing something dramatic. Now, England will be placed in an impossible situation if they don't get enough play today to add another 130-150 runs at least without too much damage. If they lose too much time today, and if we get most of the overs in tomorrow, then England will find it difficult to score 350 in the final day, yet they will have to remain positive to keep the bowling out, otherwise with close fields and a block away approach they would end up playing into NZ's hands.
Chasing 450 isn't the impossible task that it was say 10 years ago. The pitch usually last for 10 days these days, its the pressure of the game situation rather than too much of the pitch that makes the 4th innings a very difficult task.

As expected, the rain looks set to wash out the rest of the day.

Looks like no more play today.
New Zealand would be hoping they'd get in most of the overs tomorrow. Think the remote possibility of England engineering a record chase is over.......

I doubt we'll be scoring 400 runs in a day

The rankings, according to Cricinfo:

"If England hang on for the 1-0 series win, they move up to to third from fifth and New Zealand will drop to seventh from third. If it's 1-1 New Zealand still drop to fourth - bizarrely with India overtaking them - and England stay fifth..."

Bit of a drop for the Kiwis if this weather remains.

Damn rain, robbing England of victory.

rankings notwithstanding....NZ has won hearts with their play...in this frame of mind they will give Aus and SA a run for their monies.
they are the No3 side on form now

KP_fan wrote:rankings notwithstanding....NZ has won hearts with their play...in this frame of mind they will give Aus and SA a run for their monies.
they are the No3 side on form now

You missed the first test, right?

Duty281 wrote:

KP_fan wrote:rankings notwithstanding....NZ has won hearts with their play...in this frame of mind they will give Aus and SA a run for their monies.
they are the No3 side on form now

You missed the first test, right?

you missed by first test review

Just seen an article on the BBC that is asking is Cook the best batsman of all time. Someone better get their p45 tonight.

NickisBHAFC wrote:Just seen an article on the BBC that is asking is Cook the best batsman of all time. Someone better get their p45 tonight.

What was it that she/he was smoking?

He is the best left handed English opener of all time.

I'd love a link to this mystery article

Stella wrote:He is the best left handed English opener of all time.

Nah, John Edrich was better

Hoggy_Bear wrote:

Stella wrote:He is the best left handed English opener of all time.

Nah, John Edrich was better

His name, and Chris Broad's did come to my head

Stated a few pages back that Cook has to come pretty close to the English batting prom queen, and is in my top five. I can appreciate mine is probably a unique view.

As for the test/series - Test cricket is tough, and if they get the series win, I think England can be pretty chuffed with themselves, because NZ have done all the running for both Tests. England have only had two days, really which belonged to them. This is important because heading into a crazy schedule where they will probably be second best for the majority of the time, they desperately needed to learn how to scavenge.

As for the rankings... they're crocked, and have been for a while. Last year brought about the ridiculous scenario where the #1 team in the world had lost 3 of their last six series', one of those a whitewash, while the #2 had lost one series in five years. Much like DL, it's a broken model.

GSC wrote:I'd love a link to this mystery article

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/32802253

This is the closest I could come to finding anything remotely close to what Nick's implying. There's an old quote from Brendon McCullum when Cook was at his peak in 2011, saying he could go on to be the greatest batsmen of all time.

Th probem with the rankings is that the teams play each other so rarely and their relative strengths ebb and flow a lot faster than the system can respond to. Its also nigh on impossible to model the margin of victory to account for full on pastings vs marginal wins.
Short of having wild swings from short series which brings its own problems I cant really see theres a lot they can do to change the system, although it perhaps should be weighted more heavily toward recent games.


As for England looking ahead to the ashes theres some good signs with the batting, but control from the bowlers is a huge problem. Guys like Warner will be loving the way the new zealanders have taken stokes and ali apart. Something has to change there.

The only way I can see the standings being fixed so to speak is if they move to a test championship sort of model - top 8/10 teams play each other once over a 3/4 year period.

And what is it with this seniority thing regarding the slips and short leg. Lyth is apparently a wonderful slipper, but has to field short leg because it's his second test????

Baffling

Olly wrote:And what is it with this seniority thing regarding the slips and short leg. Lyth is apparently a wonderful slipper, but has to field short leg because it's his second test????

Baffling

Damn stupid - Bell is excellent there as well, and at least would be doing something useful if fielding there, and could claim the Chris Jordan role in the side of specialist fielder.

Re today's play, weather looks a bit dicey again today, maybe get 70 overs in under leaden skies so batting will be tough. Any talk of England chasing these down (such as from Joe Root's probably misquoted interview yesterday) is pure fantasy!

The draw looks a good bet. Shame the weather and only two tests has ruined a contest between two evenly matched sides, who have also played some fine aggressive Cricket.

Indeed Stella I'd much rather see a 5 test series against this kiwi side than yet another ashes series. A real shame this game has been curtailed by the rain, because I think we'd have made a good fist of the chase

Does anyone know how it works today if there is time lost? We start with 98 overs possible, but if we lose say an hour, is that 15 overs lost, or can time be made up at the end of the day?

Dont think time gets added on on the final day but could be wrong

You have to think that with a full days play New Zealand will get the ten wickets. A real test of mental strength of the England side.

Agree about Lyth and the slip position. Only going on what I've heard ; but if he is a regular in that position it makes sense to put him there for England and see how he does. Bell has done good work there in the past , but at present it seems his loss of batting confidence has spilled over into his catching. And the last thing you need is a slip fielder who doesn't really want the ball to come to him.

Pity about the rain. I don't really think England were likely to chase down 455 ... But there was a chance they could ; and if the good start Cook & Lyth had made yesterday had led to , say , 180/2 overnight , today might have been compelling viewing.
As it is , England have no chance so it is just can they bat out 98 overs for a draw. Should be able to , really , with all ten still standing ; but I've seen them collapse too often to be confident. In a way , losing the incentive of scoring runs to put their opponents under pressure might make it harder for them . Depends on the individual , but some players are certainly less happy batting purely for survival. Also means NZ can keep attacking fields up without worrying about the run rate.
Not raining , I see : so on with the show...

Well that's the first one gone already! I don't think we will bat out 98 overs today, so rain might be the saviour here

VTR wrote:Well that's the first one gone already! I don't think we will bat out 98 overs today, so rain might be the saviour here

Ballance gone as well now. Don't think england will go for the win anymore.

Hoggy_Bear wrote:

VTR wrote:Well that's the first one gone already! I don't think we will bat out 98 overs today, so rain might be the saviour here

Ballance gone as well now. Don't think england will go for the win anymore.

Yes I think our chances of that are done! I hate days like this, you just know if England do it they will be 9 down at the end. Its so painful to follow!

Two wickets down and Ballance again out cheaply. 61 for 2 and time for a road map. England cannot afford to lose another wicket this morning for me so must look to get to lunch around 110 for 2. In the afternoon the maximum they can afford to lose is three wickets and be around 200 for 5. From that position they could then afford a mini-collapse and close around 8 wickets down.

New Zealand will want another wicket or two before lunch - say having England at around 110 for 4. At tea they'd hope to have England reduced to around 200 for 7 and well-placed to wrap things up with an hour to spare.

Bell out for one. His form is a major worry. If he was a test newbie he'd be axed but his past record and stats are keeping him afloat but will that be of any use for him against Australia? Highly debatable.

Root out for a Donald Duck and less than an hour into play we can safely say it is now game over.

Our two best players are in. Don't panic.................yet!

DOH!

Well this is limper than a week old salad. Absolutely pathetic match from England once they lost the first wicket in the first innings.

This will be an utter thrashing, and a deserved one

Feel for Root in that situation, 99 times out of 100 they just bounce of the man at short leg. Something needs to change with Balance because his technique is shocking, and Bell is, well brainless would be a compliment after that dismissal.

Just got back to see a reshowing only once in real time of the dismissals. Immediate reaction - good balls did for Lyth and Ballance while Root was unlucky but what was Bell doing? What was going to be achieved by that shot other than giving a possible chance? Surely he could have let the ball go by or into his body?

Alfie (in particular) - I've already noticed Craig smiling. Not often he's done that on this tour. See the effect of 2 wickets that I was rambling on about at the weekend!

Anyway, I was right about one thing here. I feared Root was due a failure. Mind you, I did also expect Bell at last to come good again!

Bell an Balllance are in horrible form...and hope Lyth doesn't turn out to be a one inning wonder.

On the positive side......Cook has hit peak form and Root, Ali, Butler and Stokes are all good with the bat....so that'5 good batters...and if Wood, Broad and Jimmy show spine.....Eng can still fight out a draw from here.

good for NZ that they can close in the fields as much as they like and go all out attack....no fear of defeat

England selectors are the masters of faith in old-timers. They did it with Trott and stuck with him eay too long and they will repeat the mistake with Bell a this rate. His form over the last year has been rank rotten so how much longer does he get whereas if Lyth had flopped here he may well have been axed.

CaledonianCraig wrote:England selectors are the masters of faith in old-timers. They did it with Trott and stuck with him eay too long and they will repeat the mistake with Bell a this rate. His form over the last year has been rank rotten so how much longer does he get whereas if Lyth had flopped here he may well have been axed.

I could honestly see Bell being axed for The Ashes now. I think the new regime is going to be more ruthless than a lot think - and rightly so

It is during days like today where my belief that all cricket fans should take a crash course in rain dancing is reaffirmed

VTR wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:England selectors are the masters of faith in old-timers. They did it with Trott and stuck with him eay too long and they will repeat the mistake with Bell a this rate. His form over the last year has been rank rotten so how much longer does he get whereas if Lyth had flopped here he may well have been axed.

I could honestly see Bell being axed for The Ashes now. I think the new regime is going to be more ruthless than a lot think - and rightly so

Weren't Utd thinking of getting rid of Alex Ferguson after a barren spell...

Fickle fans...........Bell has been a top batsmen for England for a longtime...........Cut him some slack..

Oh dear ... Coming back to find four wickets down : not good.

Haven't see the wickets replayed yet but I'm gathering Bell in particular was a bad dismissal.
Not sure what has happened to him ? That hundred in Antigua has been followed by an absolutely awful run of outs. And several of them have been down to really poor shots more than fantastic bowling. Really looking that his confidence is shot. And the daunting prospect of an Ashes Series looming...

I feared this sort of collapse was possible , as I indicated before the start today. Two players out of form at three and four is not ideal at any time ; and on a pressure filled last day was an accident waiting to happen. The unfortunate thing was that Root has picked this Test to have a rare Bad Match.

Hard to see England surviving all day from here.

Think he needs to go and work on his game outside of the scrutiny of the world and slowly make his way back. Think England have been quiet patient with bell and there's something not quite right either in his mental make up or in his technique. Don't think a man so low on confidence should be exposed to the Aussies. Might do irreparable damage to him. Drop him and tell him that he's still wanted and get him working his arse off so he can get his place back.

In fairness the Ashes starts in July...........So he'll have plenty of time without being dropped....

I imagine he won't be picked for the one day stuff after the world cup..

Well, that's half the job done for NZ with alarming ease. I can't see the remaining 5 wickets lasting more than about 40 overs, and the new ball would surely do the job anyway, so its over to the rain to save England

Aye there is that Truss. Just think he needs a lot of rest from the international game to recover to the excellent batsman he is.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:In fairness the Ashes starts in July...........So he'll have plenty of time without being dropped....

I imagine he won't be picked for the one day stuff after the world cup..

That is my hope - that he will go and score some runs for his county now and recover a bit of form and confidence. He has been a fine player , and made a century just four Tests back so surely hasn't suddenly forgotten how to bat.
Trouble is his lean streak has been running for a while now so the credit he has built up isn't quite as bankable these days. You only have to look at Cook to see that a very good player can bounce back from a prolonged run of outs ; and I fancy they'll be hoping he can do the same. But having one of your two senior batsmen in the horrors is a major concern ; and with Ballance also out of runs the whole middle order set up looks a lot less secure than it seemed a few weeks ago.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

VTR wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:England selectors are the masters of faith in old-timers. They did it with Trott and stuck with him eay too long and they will repeat the mistake with Bell a this rate. His form over the last year has been rank rotten so how much longer does he get whereas if Lyth had flopped here he may well have been axed.

I could honestly see Bell being axed for The Ashes now. I think the new regime is going to be more ruthless than a lot think - and rightly so

Fickle fans...........Bell has been a top batsmen for England for a longtime...........Cut him some slack..

The question is how long do you cut slack to someone on the strength of past records?He has been on this run of form for a year now. England can afford no passengers in their side if they want to regain the Ashes.

He got a hundred in the West Indies.....