England v New Zealand, Headingley 29th May to 2nd June

First topic message reminder :

After an England win that for much of the first four days looked unlikely we move up to Leeds for round 2.

England have added Plunkett to the squad either as cover for Wood, who has a poor fitness record, or maybe because the senior seamers may be a touch tired. Very much doubt we will see any changes to the starting XI however. Selectors will be hoping that Adam Lyth can get some runs at his home ground as lord alone knows where they go next. Lyth and Ballance will both be hoping to be in the runs - and England need them to as you cannot keep losing 3 or 4 cheap top order wickets.

New Zealand have their own issues. Anderson and Watling have caused the physios some concern, Craig did not look like an internationalk spinner and with Anderson's issues the 3 main seamers were perhaps overbowled.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

VTR wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:England selectors are the masters of faith in old-timers. They did it with Trott and stuck with him eay too long and they will repeat the mistake with Bell a this rate. His form over the last year has been rank rotten so how much longer does he get whereas if Lyth had flopped here he may well have been axed.

I could honestly see Bell being axed for The Ashes now. I think the new regime is going to be more ruthless than a lot think - and rightly so

Weren't Utd thinking of getting rid of Alex Ferguson after a barren spell...

Fickle fans...........Bell has been a top batsmen for England for a longtime...........Cut him some slack..

Well I posted some stats on here a few days ago - and make a fair argument that over an extended period they are not very good. Hardly fickle is it? I also did some research to form an opinion rather than cite a comparison that has absolutely nothing to do with cricket as evidence.

I retract fickle..............However if Sergio Aguero doesn't score in a few games for City and misses chances.........I'd be loathe to leave him out......

I do see your point...........But he did get a century in the West Indies and he is a proven performer...

Just think he deserves a longer run..

Bell won't be getting dropped in the near future. England have bigger issues, imo.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He got a hundred in the West Indies.....

And the rest have been of the utter dross variety. I think his average has been a fraction over 9. The Aussies have worked him out so it makes sense to me to drop him now and give the Aussies a new conundrum to work out. It won't happen I know but still it makes far more sense than stumbling along with a passenger the team can do without.

Fair enough, its all about opinions. If I was a selector I would give him the chop but he has been a class player in the past so get him working hard in CC to work his way back. Mentally he doesn't seem quite right to me at the moment.

You are obviously in the "proven class and must come good soon" camp. Well that worked for Cook, so there is merit in the argument. Also, going into the last home Ashes his record over a couple of years was looking similar to now, then look what happened.....

Who comes in for Bell? The middle order has gone from solid to shaky over the 2 Tests with only Root being in a vein of form so not the greatest place in the world for a newbie. Personally think Bell will stay, he's only a month or so since his last ton and he's survived drier periods before.

Cook gone - shame a couple more players didn't play similar innings. All over now really, no-one left who you would fancy to block this one out

If you examine Bell's record , he has had a couple of bad patches before : 2008/9 was horrible - but he came back with an absolutely brilliant two years immediately after. Similarly 2012 from the UAE disaster was another seriously dry spell...only to have him play out of his skin the next year and play a very major role in the retention of the Ashes in 2013.
So the hope will be that he'll come back quickly again. The old question about keeping faith with a proven talent or deciding someone is probably past his best and introducing new blood...

I think you could make a decent case either way .

liverbnz wrote:Who comes in for Bell? The middle order has gone from solid to shaky over the 2 Tests with only Root being in a vein of form so not the greatest place in the world for a newbie. Personally think Bell will stay, he's only a month or so since his last ton and he's survived drier periods before.

Taylor is an option or even Hales and they only need to better an average of 9 which Bell is on over the last calendar year plus gives the Aussies a new batsman to work out since they already know how to get him out.

VTR wrote:Cook gone - shame a couple more players didn't play similar innings. All over now really, no-one left who you would fancy to block this one out

Well Moeen did get a hundred here last year , did he not ? And so nearly saved the game... But yes I agree this one is a goner , barring a minor miracle. Or a deluge.

Cook was a little unfortunate there , with his lbw actually quite marginal on both impact on pad and stumps. Though it did look a good shout live so one can't complain. Pity no one else was able to dig in today : NZ have some good bowlers ; but four wickets falling to Craig and Williamson ?

Moeen gone and the Fat Lady is tuning her pipes...

Bell and Ballance...2 Middle order openings for the dreaded ghost who is still walking

batting at No.8 Moen Ali has started batting like a number 8...

KP_fan wrote:Bell and Ballance...2 Middle order openings for the dreaded ghost who is still walking

Are you familiar with the phrase "Give it a rest"

KP_fan wrote:batting at No.8 Moen Ali has started batting like a number 8...

Apart from the last Test where he batted pretty well there. But anyway....

CaledonianCraig wrote:

liverbnz wrote:Who comes in for Bell? The middle order has gone from solid to shaky over the 2 Tests with only Root being in a vein of form so not the greatest place in the world for a newbie. Personally think Bell will stay, he's only a month or so since his last ton and he's survived drier periods before.

Taylor is an option or even Hales and they only need to better an average of 9 which Bell is on over the last calendar year plus gives the Aussies a new batsman to work out since they already know how to get him out.

If you made the move , it would be Hales for mine. Bat him at three , Ballance to four. If he came off he would add a bit more fluency to the top three . Still questions on his pedigree for Tests , I think , given his mediocre fifty over record. But he is in some form , so if you're going to try him now is probably the time.

Not sure the Aussies "know how to get him (Bell) out" though. They got everyone out in 2013/14 ; but he made plenty off them in the two preceding series.

VTR wrote:

KP_fan wrote:Bell and Ballance...2 Middle order openings for the dreaded ghost who is still walking

Are you familiar with the phrase "Give it a rest"

because you want to give it a rest?
you constitute the opinion of 28% of all who have a view on this

KP_fan wrote:

VTR wrote:

KP_fan wrote:Bell and Ballance...2 Middle order openings for the dreaded ghost who is still walking

Are you familiar with the phrase "Give it a rest"

because you want to give it a rest?
you constitute  the opinion of 28% of all who have a view on this

There is a separate thread if you want to discuss your bromance with KP. This thread is about the current Test

KP_fan wrote:Bell and Ballance...2 Middle order openings for the dreaded ghost who is still walking

In fact , the possibility that Bell is on the way out might be a reason not to consider recycling another older player .
As it may be that there is a pressing need to develop a number four for the future...

Reckon if KP hadn't basically gone full Espana Armada on ECB, his teammates, and superiors... He'd be in with a look at replacing Bell

Hope that Taylor will be considered as the next in line for a middle order spot. could even have Taylor at 3 and ballance coming in at 4 to break up the left handers at the top of the order.

For KP_Fan just to show I am consistent England don't need ageing players with a tumbling average. It is why I would prefer to see Bell axed and is why (amongst that and one or three other things) I am glad KP wasn't invited back (a falling average at Test level).

NZ deserve to win...but I think Eng can still save the game....these days batting out 40 overs for the lower order is not an impossible task.....
though new ball is due in 11 and a bit

LivinginItaly wrote:Hope that Taylor will be considered as the next in line for a middle order spot. could even have Taylor at 3 and ballance coming in at 4 to break up the left handers at the top of the order.

I am sure he will be considered. Big stumbling block is he is in absolutely awful form in the CC. Also note that Hales form has tailed off badly as well!

In form middle order batsmen in the CC at the moment appear to be Hildreth and Roy

I would guess that the XI for the first ashes test might the same as this one, barring injury.

Apart from Bell , the disappointing thing about this match is that over the two innings we've seen nothing over thirty from any of England's three to eight...and I think it is a total of eight single figure scores ...you can't win Test Matches like that.

OK Buttler is 31 now but my point is still valid... They have to be better than that.

KP_fan wrote:NZ deserve to win...but I think Eng can still save the game....these days batting out 40 overs for the lower order is not an impossible task.....
though new ball is due in 11 and a bit

You said it yourself...new ball in 11.

They won't survive that.

alfie wrote:Apart from Bell , the disappointing thing about this match is that over the two innings we've seen nothing over thirty from any of England's three to eight...and I think it is a total of eight single figure scores ...you can't win Test Matches like that.

OK Buttler is 31 now but my point is still valid... They have to be better than that.

Can't argue with that. The first innings in particular being very costly and wasting the hard work of Lyth and Cook. Ballance also managed to run out Lyth whilst making a poor contribution himself

VTR wrote:

LivinginItaly wrote:Hope that Taylor will be considered as the next in line for a middle order spot. could even have Taylor at 3 and ballance coming in at 4 to break up the left handers at the top of the order.

I am sure he will be considered. Big stumbling block is he is in absolutely awful form in the CC. Also note that Hales form has tailed off badly as well!

In form middle order batsmen in the CC at the moment appear to be Hildreth and Roy

Bairstow ? I know he struggled last time he was in , but he could be worth another look. Frankly I expect them to stick with Bell for now ; if he fails in the first couple of Ashes Tests then anyone who is churning out runs at the time will be a chance...

VTR wrote:

alfie wrote:Apart from Bell , the disappointing thing about this match is that over the two innings we've seen nothing over thirty from any of England's three to eight...and I think it is a total of eight single figure scores ...you can't win Test Matches like that.

OK Buttler is 31 now but my point is still valid... They have to be better than that.

Can't argue with that. The first innings in particular being very costly and wasting the hard work of Lyth and Cook. Ballance also managed to run out Lyth whilst making a poor contribution himself

Englands first innings was very similar to New Zealand's first innings at Lords. A great foundation was put down and from a position of strength neither side posted a score anything near they should have done given their start and as a result it looks like it will cost both sides the match.

Jason Roy has averaged near 60 in the county championship since the start of 2014, an emerging talent in all forms of the game.

I wouldn't make any changes to the team for the first ashes test however, give bell and Moeen a chance to regain some form in county stuff and then in they don't perform there drop em for the 2nd test

Let's be honest, we can put pretty much anyone in the Ashes side and we will get tonked, so the selectors need to decide whether to blood new players now or wait until after to avoid damaging their confidence.

It will take a miracle for a team that can't handle the spin of Kane Williamson to do much against Johnson, Harris, Starc and Cummins!

Williamson 3/6 ...

Really shouldn't happen. NZ deserve this win ; and a shared series is a fair result , so I'm not complaining. But I would like to have seen Cook given a bit more support today - even of it just prolonged the agony.

Not going to slash my wrists : this sort of one good match , one shocker , is bound to happen with a young team rebuilding . There is plenty of promise there , and it could all click sooner than we expect. Long as they don't let the disappointment of missing two successive series wins with , essentially , a couple of hours batting horror in each loss , they can bounce back.

Won't stay for the final moments , with due respect to NZ , who shouldnt need too long after tea. Hope Buttler gets a few more...
Goodnight all.

Weather gods now would be a good time to rain

Madness. Skybet offering 5000/1 on an England win - I've punted a fiver.

It's about a 750/1 possibility, not 5000/1!

Buttler will go down swinging, if he has to, and if luck is truly on England's side, it may just come off.

The greatest escape of them all.

I'd echo most people's sentiments on the lack of runs from the middle order. Happy with Cook and Lyth at the top, but Balance has some serious technical issues for someone batting at 3. He can't continue there imo.

Bell is gone imo. His slip fielding has shown he is starting to dwindle and his dismissals look like those of a man whose mind and body isn't at the level required to score well in international cricket. He has to be dropped before the ashes, but not too sure who could come in as I haven't followed much of the county season apart from Glamorgan. Any ideas?

Little known fact: If Kane Williamson's right arm off breaks weren't cleared in time for the world cup, he was planning to get his slow left arm orthodox cleared.

Liam wrote:

Bell is gone imo. His slip fielding has shown he is starting to dwindle and his dismissals look like those of a man whose mind and body isn't at the level required to score well in international cricket. He has to be dropped before the ashes, but not too sure who could come in as I haven't followed much of the county season apart from Glamorgan. Any ideas?

Think this is a bit over the top. It was only a couple of months ago that Bell scored a test century.

Hi Hoggy - as you're there, how's your boy Woakes and his fitness?

guildfordbat wrote:Hi Hoggy - as you're there, how's your boy Woakes and his fitness?

Haven't heard anything, to be fair. Which might mean anything. Hopefully he'll be back soon enough though, but I think he might have to wait a bit before he gets back into the England team.

Thanks, Hoggy. I'm not screaming for his selection but it would be handy to have him in the mix as someone else available.

Are NZ getting worried about getting two guys who average 57 and 47 out I wonder?

Wood is a nightwatchman for Durham so he'll know to play a straight bat and defend. Still probably too long for him and Buttler to survive to see us to a draw but they might well have kept Alfie from his bed a bit longer if our Australian based poster hadn't already given up the battle!

VTR wrote:Are NZ getting worried about getting two guys who average 57 and 47 out I wonder?

You haven't even mentioned the Burnley Lara!

Olly wrote:

VTR wrote:Are NZ getting worried about getting two guys who average 57 and 47 out I wonder?

You haven't even mentioned the Burnley Lara!

Fair point, this is in the bag isn't it!

guildfordbat wrote:Wood is a nightwatchman for Durham so he'll know to play a straight bat and defend. Still probably too long for him and Buttler to survive to see us to a draw but they might well have kept Alfie from his bed a bit longer if our Australian based poster hadn't already given up the battle!

Didn't know that re Wood. He can certainly hold a bat. Probably not for 30 overs vs the new ball bowling of Southee and Boult though!

guildfordbat wrote:Thanks, Hoggy. I'm not screaming for his selection but it would be handy to have him in the mix as someone else available.

Yep, always best to have as many players fit (and, hopefully, in form) to chose from as possible.

Meanwhile and even with the Burnley Lara at number 11 , I don't think anyone need wake Alfie!

Excellent stuff from the kiwis today - fully deserved drawn series that. High quality, entertaining test cricket.

VTR wrote:Let's be honest, we can put pretty much anyone in the Ashes side and we will get tonked, so the selectors need to decide whether to blood new players now or wait until after to avoid damaging their confidence.

It will take a miracle for a team that can't handle the spin of Kane Williamson to do much against Johnson, Harris, Starc and Cummins!

So that is no grounds for sticking with a player not averaging 10 with the bat in the last calendar year is it? If he isn't performing he shouldn't be picked. Give someone else a chance not to perform. And lest we forget, New Zealand are narrowly behind Australia in the rankings (very narrowly) so their bowlers can't be that much more deficient.

NZ win...fair result and better overall through the series...lost by a bit( in terms of time ) and won by a mile.

Inspite of not having the full choice of first line players

and Inpsite of losing both tosses

NZ are world No.4 and richly deserving India under the leadership of Kohli rise to No. 3

Cook takes Eng down to No 5 or 6  or 7 is it?...with his contend and defensive ways...and hence fails to bury " the ghost" who bothers him most....he whose thoughts give him nightmares and he who might ( will) eat up his record of highest runs if ( when) he returns