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World rugby to monitor Ireland and France player discipline

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World rugby to monitor Ireland and France player discipline - Page 2 Empty World rugby to monitor Ireland and France player discipline

Post by LordDowlais Mon Jun 01, 2015 7:31 pm

First topic message reminder :

Oh well, it looks as though World Rugby is going to keep an eye on the French and the Irish before the upcoming world cup after their latest non citing's of obvious foul play, this should be interesting to say the least, it was about time somebody higher up the food chain stepped in to sort this nonsense out.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/32953649

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:27 am

marty2086 wrote:you think Hartley falls into that bracket?

does a shark shoite in the sea ?

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Post by marty2086 Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:28 am

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:you think Hartley falls into that bracket?

does a shark shoite in the sea ?

So your saying Hartley has a good disciplinary record?

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:30 am

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:you think Hartley falls into that bracket?

does a shark shoite in the sea ?

So your saying Hartley has a good disciplinary record?

No I am saying he has a very, very bad one, and he fits into that category right at the top of the pile.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:00 am

Munchkin wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
thebandwagonsociety wrote:In the Pro12 this season, the four Irish provinces account for 67% of the proven citings on the fair play table.  The Pro12 also as a league consisting of 4 separate Unions would make it trickier to enforce preferential treatment due to the nature of it's set-up.  Any league where discipline is enforced solely by its own Union..........

Ah but you could also say that only one of those provinces is responsible for 44.44% of the Pro12's upheld citings, so that really skews the figures somewhat.

But then on points we represent only 13.3%, with Scarlets on 9.04%.

Not that it makes great reading for us anyway. Our discipline has been very poor this season.

Your right there. Not sure what the Scarlets discipline has to do with anything, but hopefully you feel better for mentioning them fair enough (guessing it was some sort of retaliation/bite?). The point I was getting at was that the Pro12 Fair Play League, going by individual nations, is not exactly a decent reflection of each nation as Ulster's upheld citings do skew the figures.

I addition in order to really get a decent impression of if the citing system is working, you would need to weigh it up with how many yellow cards there have been, how many reds, how many citings in total, and how many up citings have lead to bans and/or posthumous cards. Oh and in addition to that, how long the bans are in comparison to similar offenses in other leagues.

This season in the Pro12 there have been -:
413 yellow cards
10 red cards
9 upheld citings
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Post by HammerofThunor Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:24 am

marty2086 wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:4 weeks isn't the minimum for striking with the head.  It's the Low entry level (which often gets confused with the minimum for some reason).  The IRB then recommend that up to 50% can be taken off this so a 'minimum' would be half the LE level, which is 2 weeks.

There's only been one case (that I know of) when more than 50% reduction was applied.  And that was for Haskell for striking with the head (flying into a ruck headfirst), which was reduced from 4 weeks to 1 week (75%).  In this case the additional mitigating circumstances were that a teammate of Haskell's was being held down in a ruck and being repeatedly punched.  Haskell tried to bring it to the refs attention be he was ignored so he charged in to clear him out.

Also, it wasn't a head butt (unless you clash touching someone with a fist a punch, i.e. pressing it against someone and pushing).

Finally, where do the PRO12 publish their discipline reports?

That's recommended whens theres been no previous bad conduct, you think Hartley falls into that bracket?

No. That's why he didn't get a 2 week ban Headscratch

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Post by Guest Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:26 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
thebandwagonsociety wrote:In the Pro12 this season, the four Irish provinces account for 67% of the proven citings on the fair play table.  The Pro12 also as a league consisting of 4 separate Unions would make it trickier to enforce preferential treatment due to the nature of it's set-up.  Any league where discipline is enforced solely by its own Union..........

Ah but you could also say that only one of those provinces is responsible for 44.44% of the Pro12's upheld citings, so that really skews the figures somewhat.

But then on points we represent only 13.3%, with Scarlets on 9.04%.

Not that it makes great reading for us anyway. Our discipline has been very poor this season.

Your right there.  Not sure what the Scarlets discipline has to do with anything, but hopefully you feel better for mentioning them fair enough (guessing it was some sort of retaliation/bite?).  The point I was getting at was that the Pro12 Fair Play League, going by individual nations, is not exactly a decent reflection of each nation as Ulster's upheld citings do skew the figures.

I addition in order to really get a decent impression of if the citing system is working, you would need to weigh it up with how many yellow cards there have been, how many reds, how many citings in total, and how many up citings have lead to bans and/or posthumous cards.  Oh and in addition to that, how long the bans are in comparison to similar offenses in other leagues.

This season in the Pro12 there have been -:
413 yellow cards
10 red cards
9 upheld citings

Because you're a Scarlets fan, and because I thought comparisons were relevant. No need to be so boxing

Anyway, agree about the comparisons to other leagues, although I would also say we don't need to go that far if we're just considering consistency. Within our own league can the citing panels be considered to be consistent with one another? Would one nation citing commission/panel be harsher than another? Are all citing commissioners consistent with one another? Are all ref's consistent? TMO's?

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Post by SecretFly Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:32 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

This season in the Pro12 there have been -:
413 yellow cards
10 red cards
9 upheld citings

Where are you getting that number from?

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Post by SecretFly Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:33 am

Munchkin wrote:

Because you're a Scarlets fan, and because I thought comparisons were relevant. No need to be so boxing


Cop on. This thread is only about Irish and French indiscipline.

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Post by HammerofThunor Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:34 am

153 Yellow Cards

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Post by Guest Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:38 am

SecretFly wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Because you're a Scarlets fan, and because I thought comparisons were relevant. No need to be so boxing


Cop on.  This thread is only about Irish and French indiscipline.

Ah, I knew I must be going wrong somewhere Erm

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:42 am

SecretFly wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:

This season in the Pro12 there have been -:
413 yellow cards
10 red cards
9 upheld citings

Where are you getting that number from?

From having a numeric version of dyslexia Doh Was meant to type 143 (which is 10 out apparently).


Munchkin, ah fair enough. Just seemed an odd one to bring up Hug
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Post by Guest Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:48 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:

This season in the Pro12 there have been -:
413 yellow cards
10 red cards
9 upheld citings

Where are you getting that number from?

From having a numeric version of dyslexia Doh   Was meant to type 143 (which is 10 out apparently).


Munchkin, ah fair enough.  Just seemed an odd one to bring up Hug

Sure I'm an odd person. No worries Very Happy

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Post by SecretFly Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:58 am

I think all of you should'a gone to Specsavers.

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Post by Pot Hale Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:09 am

Whinge Online

World Rugby to monitor Welsh player discipline before World Cup
by Constant Moner

England dropped Dylan Hartley after he was cited and banned for four weeks for headbutting Saracens' Jamie George.

England didn't drop Owen Farrell even after he wasn't yellow-carded for a high tackle on another player.

Ireland's Jack McGrath and Ian Madigan and France's Yoann Huget were not cited for recent incidents which they obviously should have been and banned from the Rugby World Cup.

No Welsh players have been involved in any incidents, and have not been cited at all in recent memory.

However, the sport's governing body told Whinge Online: "World Rugby is keeping an interested eye on the application of the disciplinary process."
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Post by HammerofThunor Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:16 am

"England didn't drop Owen Farrell even after he wasn't yellow-carded for a high tackle on another player."

That's a rather strange statement. It reads as though players are almost always red carded/banned for high tackles.

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Post by SecretFly Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:27 am

HammerofThunor wrote:"England didn't drop Owen Farrell even after he wasn't yellow-carded for a high tackle on another player."

That's a rather strange statement.  It reads as though players are almost always red carded/banned for high tackles.

This is a thread about the ones that got away. The ones that got away Hammer. I think a few of us have just added Owen to the list.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:29 am

To be fair to them, they do tend to just rehash other news outlets stories with their own negative spin. And facts mean little to them as they had Henson as a possible RWC replacement fir Jon Davies.
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Post by HammerofThunor Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:31 am

Owen didn't get away. He was cited and awarded a retrospective yellow card (it would be 'amusing' if he gets a couple more and gets a game ban for the World Cup).

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:44 am

He just avoided a citing?

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Post by marty2086 Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:01 am

HammerofThunor wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:4 weeks isn't the minimum for striking with the head.  It's the Low entry level (which often gets confused with the minimum for some reason).  The IRB then recommend that up to 50% can be taken off this so a 'minimum' would be half the LE level, which is 2 weeks.

There's only been one case (that I know of) when more than 50% reduction was applied.  And that was for Haskell for striking with the head (flying into a ruck headfirst), which was reduced from 4 weeks to 1 week (75%).  In this case the additional mitigating circumstances were that a teammate of Haskell's was being held down in a ruck and being repeatedly punched.  Haskell tried to bring it to the refs attention be he was ignored so he charged in to clear him out.

Also, it wasn't a head butt (unless you clash touching someone with a fist a punch, i.e. pressing it against someone and pushing).

Finally, where do the PRO12 publish their discipline reports?

That's recommended whens theres been no previous bad conduct, you think Hartley falls into that bracket?

No. That's why he didn't get a 2 week ban Headscratch

Given his record they had no out of reducing the ban hence the least they could give him was four weeks, there have been cases where poor records have led to bans being increased by a number of weeks as a deterrent and no one could argue with Hartley falling into that bracket. Given the loss of his WC place a longer ban might have been best for everyone

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Post by HammerofThunor Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:18 am

But this started with you saying "Hartley received the absolute minimum he could get in spite of being a repeat offender and had no good record to use to reduce the ban."

That's wrong, the absolute minimum is 2 weeks, but it wasn't reduced because he doesn't have a good record. You seem to be saying his record means it wasn't reduced, then saying they didn't increase it based on his record. His record was taken into account.

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Post by SecretFly Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:25 am

Could we all agree that next season - if we're here - we'll find other things to talk about besides refs, citings and TMO decisions? They'll still be there obviously...but we sure did knock the stuffing out of these topics this season....there really is not an awful lot left to be said that hasn't been repeated tenfold already.

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Post by Pot Hale Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:29 am

SecretFly wrote:Could we all agree that next season - if we're here - we'll find other things to talk about besides refs, citings and TMO decisions?  They'll still be there obviously...but we sure did knock the stuffing out of these topics this season....there really is not an awful lot left to be said that hasn't been repeated tenfold already.  

Yes.
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