The Ashes Thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

Some news from the Aussie camp

Chris Rogers will miss the first test with a head injury
Steve Smith has been promoted to bat 3 (hate it hate it hate it leave him alone)

[LondonTiger]

If they elect to play two spinners, then really Stokes has to drop out. I just cannot see him as a 3rd seamer.

Doubt they will pick two spinners though. Rashid and Finn to miss out.


Though...drop Ballance or Bell to make room for second spinner?

[msp83]

Msp will be happy - unless and until Finn and Rashid fail to make the cut!

Don't see either of them playing the first test Guildford.
Think now that they've gone and picked Rashid, they should play him as the sole spinner. Rashid for Moeen should be the only change. But I can't see that happening. The history with Finn isn't great as far as the management side of things are concerned, but now that Wood has got going at the top level and Anderson and Broad are the top seamers, Finn has to earn his place back. Don't think he's close to his best as yet, that SA series and then in India he was really really good. Still very hopeful of him making it back to the top.......
But as I said, neither are playing that first test unless for fitness reasons.
All these talk of 2 spinners is just a bluff. Swann and Panesar, on top of their games were world class. Ali is bits and pieces and Rashid hasn't even played a test yet. And if at all they jump into a scenario like that of a 2 spinner attack, think it will be Balance who would miss out rather than Stokes. That would mean Root will have to move up the order. Think Bell is far more deserving of a chop but isn't happening, and Root isn't moving up the order at least for now. So, 2 spinners aren't playing.......

[Jetty]

The Australians won't be playing two spinners at Cardiff. Last time I think it was 1/246 with Swann and Panesar. I think there is some rain on the Wednesday and Friday.

[LivinginItaly]

To be honest i don't think they will play two spinners. In my opinion baylis probably just wanted both Ali and Rashid to be in the squad so that he can look closely at both of them before choosing which one to go with for the beginning of the series. It wouldn't surprise me if Rashid plays in the first game instead of Ali.

[Gooseberry]

If you're gonna play two spinners, I can't see space for Stokes. Simply isn't possible. His bowling is too expensive, even on good days for him to be your old ball seamer.

Id agree.
Stokes has lived off his batting in both tests and ODIs. He neither takes wickets nor keeps control, theres simply no way trhey could go witha 3 2 split and include him especially as both Moeen and Rashisd have question marks over their control. Wood is a more attacking option in the wicket taking sense, and (in theorry at least) both Moeen and Rashid are reasoable options at 6 or Buttler could move up.

I do think its most likely that just one will play though. On form it should be Rashid. He didnt set the world on fire in the ODIs but Ali hasnt really done anything in his county games to suggest hes back to his best with the ball, and his batting hasnt been amazing either. Rashid is a risk, and the agressive Aussie bats will relish the chance to end his career early. Its be fun to watch though and that seems to be Bayliss' breif now.
I get a bit fed up with the Moeen bashing crowd but I am finding it increasingly hard to justify why he deserves a place ahead of Rashid based don how they have played in the last few months.

[dummy_half]

Gooseberry

I could have written that post word for word. I don't see where the idea that we will play 2 spinners has come from - 13 man squad with 4 front line seamers + Stokes; I don't see picking that many seamers with the intention of leaving 2 out.

I think the selection of Moeen and Rashid is a bit of a case of the new coach taking a look at both options and making a decision on the day - both are more than competent to bat 7 or 8, so it will probably come down to the impression of who is bowling better and likely to take more wickets.

[VTR]

I don't see the problem with Stokes living off his batting - he is a batting all-rounder, who can contribute the odd decent spell with the ball. If England want to play aggressive cricket as they say (and as they will need to) then he's going to be one of the first names on the teamsheet.

[dummy_half]

VTR

The issue only comes about if we are looking to play 2 spinners - could you rely on Stokes to be the third seamer in an attack also featuring Anderson, Broad, Ali and Rashid?

For me the answer is no, he'd likely be the one to make way for the second spinner unless we dropped a specialist batsman (Balance or Bell), and played Stokes as essentially a batsman who could bowl a bit more than the occasional over. At this stage of their careers, I would consider that a risk - Stokes is a bit too hit and miss with the bat in my opinion for him to picked without him also contributing significantly with the ball

As I noted above though, I think at the moment it's all a bit hypothetical, as some posters got carried away by the inclusion of both Ali and Rashid in the squad.

[LondonTiger]

Has anyone said they think two spinners will be selected? Certainly not noticed anyone say that - rather the initial post about who would be left out IF it happened.

It will be either Ali or Dilly, and the Brummie is in the box seat, being the man in possession and the skipper's preferred choice.

[guildfordbat]

I've seen in the press Bayliss referring to ''Moeen being number one at the moment''. On the basis that is genuine (and cricinfo report the same), Bayliss appears to be confirming that Mo will play in Cardiff but sensibly keeping his options open for the rest of the series.

As regards Rashid being in this squad, surely that's also just a sensible allowance for what the Cardiff wicket and conditions might favour. Bayliss would appear a total chump on his first day before the English public if he rocked up next week with only one frontline slow bowler and, however unlikely, two were clearly seen to be the way to go.

[VTR]

VTR

The issue only comes about if we are looking to play 2 spinners - could you rely on Stokes to be the third seamer in an attack also featuring Anderson, Broad, Ali and Rashid?

For me the answer is no, he'd likely be the one to make way for the second spinner unless we dropped a specialist batsman (Balance or Bell), and played Stokes as essentially a batsman who could bowl a bit more than the occasional over. At this stage of their careers, I would consider that a risk - Stokes is a bit too hit and miss with the bat in my opinion for him to picked without him also contributing significantly with the ball

As I noted above though, I think at the moment it's all a bit hypothetical, as some posters got carried away by the inclusion of both Ali and Rashid in the squad.

Yes I would be worried about him as a third seamer, but I could honestly see Bell or Ballance being dropped to accommodate his batting as one-off. His and miss he may be, but when he gets it right, as shown in the First Test vs. NZ, he is the sort of player you really want in the team.

[Gooseberry]

In other news looks like it will be Marsh over Watson unless the aussie selectors are just trying to troll the fans.


Edit - looking at the scorecard it does appear that Essex were taking the p1ss on the bowling front , Jesse Ryder with the new ball?

[alfie]

Really can't see England seriously considering two spinners at Cardiff.  Whenever they do talk themselves into (or are bluffed into) doing so in Ashes matches (Cardiff 2009 Adelaide 2013) - Australia tend to make about 800
Swann , until his injury problems hit , did well against Australia. But you'd have to go back a long way to find a previous English spinner who troubled the Aussie batsmen. Emburey and Edmonds in the eighties ,i in fact. And that was a rather poor Australian side. Since then , they've mostly eaten English spinners for lunch.
Why would you serve up two of them ? And neither even proven...

I could see Rashid ousting Ali ; though I don't think it is the most likely option.
They certainly won't be shortening the batting for the first Test.

Probability is , same XI .  Rashid a possible variation.  Finn just there as cover.

[alfie]

And if Australia don't pick Marsh over Watson on recent form why bother bringing him ?

[VTR]

And if Australia don't pick Marsh over Watson on recent form why bother bringing him ?

It depends how much they value runs made vs. sides opening the bowling with Jesse Ryder over experience I suppose. But its hard to see what more Marsh could have done, and Watson has never been convincing at Test level

[dummy_half]

Alfie

Agree re England's selection - be surprised if Rashid is picked over Moeen for the first Test, but he's certainly in the selectors minds if Moeen doesn't perform better than his last few tests. Other than that, the same team that played NZ in the Tests will take the field, injuries aside.

[LondonTiger]

Talking about spinners, Westley and Bopara having a little fun with Lyon atm.

[msp83]

Marsh with a couple of tons really turning the pressure on Watson. Both of them aren't the types who would run through lineups with the ball, but for me Watson still is the better bowler, if only he can keep himself together....... But Marsh is really scoring the runs and Watson's overall test record isn't anything fantastic. Yet again, wish they'd given Faulkner a chance....... Think he'll be better than both Watson and Marsh as an all-rounder in terms of impact.

[guildfordbat]

Further to earlier posts today, just to mention that Jesse Ryder opening the bowling shouldn't be seen as a complete snub to our visitors. He's quite regularly done that this season with his dobbers seeming particularly suited to the highly questionable Chelmsford track.

[Azzy]

Good to see Ravi scoring some runs today. Always felt he should have had more of a Test run, but those days are long gone sadly.

[Gooseberry]

Further to earlier posts today, just to mention that Jesse Ryder opening the bowling shouldn't be seen as a complete snub to our visitors. He's quite regularly done that this season with his dobbers seeming particularly suited to the highly questionable Chelmsford track.

Fair enough but they also picked the second XI bowling attack to back him up. Its certainly a long way from adequate practise for Broad and Anderson on a good day. But thats the nature of these warm up game snowadays, far from the old toru mentality of teams wanting to get one over on the visiting side it seems that boards are desperately trying to ensure that the tourists get as little useful practise as is possible.

Judging by the runs on both sides this is far form the Essex minefield we here so much about and more like a Norfolk pancake. Westley got his 10th first class centurey in over 100 games opening against the much feared assuie quicks.

The general point that Marshes runs are devalued a bit stands. That said it would still take something pretty special to justify selecting Watson ahead of him.

[Pal Joey]

... highly questionable Chelmsford track.

Is it really that bad?
Looks very easy to bat on. Certainly doesn't seem like a very sporting wicket. Maybe that's a trap for us!

Our bowlers seem to have taken it too lightly and deserved what they got from Tom Westley and Bopara.

Guildford, do you think there was a bit of foxing going on?
You know... sort of lull the Test side into thinking the bowling is not so good after all... then come out firing on Day 1 in Cardiff?

KP_f, I predict one of two things will happen:

1.  --Essex will come out firing and head towards 600 too.
2. --The Aussie bowlers will come out firing and hope to skittle a few early ones.

I think there's probably a 50% chance of either of those scenarios happening. OK... maybe... more to Oz.
One thing's for sure. There will have to be lots of firing going on for one team to take some sort of advantage.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Further to earlier posts today, just to mention that Jesse Ryder opening the bowling shouldn't be seen as a complete snub to our visitors. He's quite regularly done that this season with his dobbers seeming particularly suited to the highly questionable Chelmsford track.

Fair enough but they also picked the second XI bowling attack to back him up. Its certainly a long way from adequate practise for Broad and Anderson on a good day. But thats the nature of these warm up game snowadays, far from the old toru mentality of teams wanting to get one over on the visiting side it seems that boards are desperately trying to ensure that the tourists get as little useful practise as is possible.

Judging by the runs on both sides this is far form the Essex minefield we here so much about and more like a Norfolk pancake. Westley got his 10th first class centurey in over 100 games  opening against the much feared assuie quicks.

The general point that Marshes runs are devalued a bit stands. That said it would still take something pretty special to justify selecting Watson ahead of him.

How dare thee speak ill of the Norfolk pitches

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Marsh with a couple of tons really turning the pressure on Watson. Both of them aren't the types who would run through lineups with the ball, but for me Watson still is the better bowler, if only he can keep himself together....... But Marsh is really scoring the runs and Watson's overall test record isn't anything fantastic. Yet again, wish they'd given Faulkner a chance....... Think he'll be better than both Watson and Marsh as an all-rounder in terms of impact.

Good job they didn't - Faulkner charged with drink driving

[msp83]

A 6for for Starc, Hazelwood went wicketless, but Harris' fitness issues would mean the attack would be Johnson, Starc, Hazelwood and Lyon to be backed up by Marsh/Watson. Nothing special with the ball from both, but Watson failed with the bat in the 2nd innings, and Marsh scored a few though not many when most others other than skipper Clarke failed around him. It is looking more and more like Marsh over Watson for that first test.......

[guildfordbat]

... highly questionable Chelmsford track.

Is it really that bad?
Looks very easy to bat on. Certainly doesn't seem like a very sporting wicket. Maybe that's a trap for us!

Our bowlers seem to have taken it too lightly and deserved what they got from Tom Westley and Bopara.

Guildford, do you think there was a bit of foxing going on?
You know... sort of lull the Test side into thinking the bowling is not so good after all... then come out firing on Day 1 in Cardiff?

...

Hi LD - I'm very much basing things on what Alec Stewart said at a recent Surrey members' forum meeting although the stats do appear to strongly back him up.

Stewart was highly scathing of Essex CCC and their Chelmsford wicket. He stated that Essex were deliberately producing sub-standard pitches in order to ensure that positive results were obtained.

In the County Championship, 16 points are awarded for a win with 5 for a draw (plus a maximum of 8 bonus points for first innings batting and bowling performances). Thus, a side like Essex in Division 2 and with promotion ambitions, would be a lot better off winning and losing their matches in roughly equal share than drawing them all.

Stewart stated that the result of the matches at Chelmsford depended ''on the toss of a coin'' with the side being put in first destined to lose. I wasn't sure why the wicket would definitely be at its worst at the start and become (slightly) easier as the game went on but again the scores do support his view.

Ok, quick overview of the stats. Essex (E) have played 4 CC matches at Chelmsford this season against in order Kent (K), Gloucestershire (G), Leicestershire (L) and Derbyshire (D).
Match 1 : K 193 all out (a o), E 164 a o, K 163 a o, E 193/5. E won by 5 wkts.
Match 2: E 159 a o, G 245 a o, E 199 a o, G 114/1. G won by 9 wkts.
Match 3 : E 166 a o, L 280 a o, E 276 a o, L 163/4. L won by 6 wkts.
Match 4 : D 148 a o, E 473 a o, D 294 a o. E won by an innings and 31 runs.

Thus, all 4 matches have produced positive results with the team batting first always losing and never reaching 200. Furthermore, it was always the side winning the toss and electing to field on each occasion that won the match.

Clearly, the current scores in the tourists game don't fit into the above although I don't know if a differently prepared track has been used for that. Perhaps worth mentioning as well that this week has seen a heatwave in England which clearly suits batsmen more than bowlers.

Lest anyone try to cheapen this post with accusations of Surrey bias [oh, I almost forgot to ask - how are you today, Gooseberry?], let me add that I like Stewart a lot. Not though because of all his Surrey connections but because I've always found him to be honest, straight talking and good humoured (and I haven't always said that about previous Directors of Cricket at the Oval).

Finally, there may still be an element of ''foxing'' going on by the counties at the behest of the ECB in these type of games but I suspect less than in earlier years. Unfortunately, the counties no longer regard such games highly and tend to use them more as an opportunity to look at their own younger inexperienced players and rest their older ones ( for example, David Masters, an Essex maestro with the new ball in county games, not playing here).

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Look at the picture I posted on the division two thread of the Essex grounds men removing the covers over the pitch to back up what Guildford is saying.

Should be docked points

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Ryan Harris out of the ashes with a knee injury

[Duty281]

Ryan Harris out of the ashes with a knee injury

Very disappointing news; might be the end of his Test career as well.

Any minor hopes that Australia might have entertained of leaving this little world with the urn have probably gone, too.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

And he's been forced to retire - what a shame for such a wonderful bowler

[CaledonianCraig]

That is a blow for Australia and an even bigger blow for Ryan Harris. A sad way to end a career and seemingly his career has been blighted by injuries.

[CaledonianCraig]

The Aussies beat Essex by 169 runs but two of Essex batsmen did not bat in the second innings because of injury. I'd say that match posed more questions for Australia than giving answers. Lyons, their frontline spinner struggled terribly and was the whipping boy and so it poses questions about how he'll fair in the Ashes. Still it was a win but not as dominant a win as I'd expected.

[TRUSSMAN66]

Lyon isn't any better than the two English boys...

Think England will win the ashes....The Aussies seem to lack bottle when they come to England...Haven't won in 14 years of trying..

Get a good start and like all bullies they'll shrink.....

3-1.....and watch them leave crying..

[liverbnz]

Lyon isn't any better than the two English boys...

Think England will win the ashes....The Aussies seem to lack bottle when they come to England...Haven't won in 14 years of trying..

Get a good start and like all bullies they'll shrink.....

3-1.....and watch them leave crying..

Or 2 series. I think they are a better side that came here a few years ago. And England are weaker - certainly in the bowling department. Is there 20 wickets in this England attack? I'm not sure there is and that's what will cost them for me.

On the batting front, Jonny Bairstow is mounting serious pressure on any of England's misfiring batsmen. 4th hundred of the season yesterday out of Yorkshire's sub-250 total. Average of 90+ since returning from carrying drinks in the Caribbean. Bell and Balance will need some runs early doors.

[Duty281]

Three series!

[VTR]

Rhino retiring has certainly increase England's chances, but Cummins is a very good replacement. Who could we call on if a seamer got seriously injured - Tim Bresnan? Aussies have great depth in their bowling resources.

[liverbnz]

Three series!

My bad. 2009 slipped my mind!

[guildfordbat]

Rhino retiring has certainly increase England's chances, but Cummins is a very good replacement. Who could we call on if a seamer got seriously injured - Tim Bresnan? Aussies have great depth in their bowling resources.

In line with VTR's post, Ryan Harris' retirement is a regrettable loss for Australia and, for the fair minded, the series as a whole. A fast, skilful and whole hearted bowler - what's not to like? Oh, and a former Surrey player as well!

However, as VTR also suggests, Harris is not so unique that he cannot be replaced. Him becoming unavailable should not adversely affect the visitors in anything like the way Swann struggling and dropping out did for England.

I fear Australia will have too much all round strength. That's not to say there aren't at least some concerns about them. In particular:

1. As stated earlier in this thread, I rate Lyon and his value to the Australian team a lot. Although not an all time great, he's the most successful Australian off spinner ever and a vital cog in the tourists' machinery. Generally keeping things tight allowing the seamers to be rotated and taking wickets along the way. That said, he had a terrible time in the match just gone against Essex where he picked up 1 tail end wicket for 200 at almost 6 an over. I'm prepared to put that down as a one off and suggest that Lyon will be back in the groove once he's bowling at Cardiff. However, my words are not just cheap but valueless - Lyon will have to demonstrate his continuing control. If he can't - or England knock it away from him - the balance of the Australian attack will be badly affected and in some trouble.

2. Another Australian I like is Watson. As I've said before, I don't feel his worth to the Australian team will be properly appreciated until he's gone. Is he still up to it? If he isn't, that'll certainly see Mitchell Marsh chosen. I'm far from convinced that he'll be anywhere near to Test standard with the ball. Whilst Watson has always been the lightweight of the Australian bowlers, his economy rate has been useful and effective. Provided England don't try to go hell for leather immediately against Marsh, I believe they'll find some easy pickings there.

3. How fit is Clarke for this tour? I genuinely don't know but that has clearly been an issue in the recent past.

[alfie]

A pity to see Harris go out like this ; but in truth I had serious doubts he would even make this tour. Has had a fine , if somewhat intermittent , career. And , in form , probably the most dangerous of Australia's pace men in English conditions.
Does his absence change the odds for this series ? Rather depends on whether the other Australian fast bowlers are able to produce their home form in England. Neither Johnson nor Starc have done particularly well on previous visits ; but you'd think they are both better bowlers now so that may not mean much. Certainly it takes away a significant replacement option should any one of the three starting bowlers not come up to the mark - or suffer injury. Siddle would be a honest replacement if called upon , but perhaps not the same wicket taking threat ; and Cummins is coming in with little red ball cricket. I am sure Clarke would rather have had Harris in his armory , even if he was never going to play in Cardiff.
Guildford makes a good point about Watson and his bowling economy rate. Of course , if the Australian propaganda is justified and the two Mitches just blow England away it might not matter
But if England are able to bat solidly then an attack lacking both Harris and Watson ( I am assuming Marsh has almost booked his place with his batting - perhaps wrongly ?) might just be a little unbalanced - especially if Lyon isn't at his best...

Two more days and we'll have a better idea , eh ?

[sportform]

An interesting article about the Ashes on tv and participation:-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/33407465?isBumped=0&postFreq=0&isEmpty=0&isProfane=0&tooLong=0&charCount=0&isAwaitingProcessPreMod=0&isSubmitted=1&filter=none&initial_page_size=10&postId=122387318#comment_122387318

[VTR]

People do forget though, those dreaded words when C4 had the rights "and now off to Kempton for the 3:30"

You can't really fault Sky's coverage to be honest - I don't have Sky anymore but when I did at least I knew I could watch the match and not some horse-racing. I think the C5 highlights are quite decent and would suit most people, there are many who just don't have the time to sit down and watch hours of Test cricket (that's why I got rid of Sky).

One big improvement would be making the ODI highlights more accessible, they are on at a stupid time

[guildfordbat]

People do forget though, those dreaded words when C4 had the rights "and now off to Kempton for the 3:30"

...

Amongst the worst words ever heard!

[LondonTiger]

Problem with timing the ODI highlights is when they finish, especially D/N matches.


People almost always have rose tinted specs when looking back.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Yeah sky aren't the problem - they provide excellent coverage of games all over the world.

[Duty281]

I think all England home Tests, as a minimum, should be on free-to-air tv.

If it wasn't for money, a share could quite easily be possible between Sky and Five.

[Hoggy_Bear]

Does seem strange, doesn't it, that the likes of Formula 1 has to be on terrestrial TV (as far as I'm aware), as do England football matches, but not England cricket (or rugby) games?

[Stella]

People do forget though, those dreaded words when C4 had the rights "and now off to Kempton for the 3:30"

...

Amongst the worst words ever heard!

Worse words were "England have lost three quick wickets whilst you've been away!

[Corporalhumblebucket]

People do forget though, those dreaded words when C4 had the rights "and now off to Kempton for the 3:30"

...

Amongst the worst words ever heard!

...and to make matters worse, before any sort of action began there was typically a quarter of an hour wasted showing horses wandering aimlessly around the paddock....

[Duty281]

England to win the series - 7/2

4/1 now.

4/1!

For the English to conquer a foe that hasn't won on this green and pleasant land for fourteen years; the same odds that were an absolute gimme after England went 1-0 down to the Indians last summer before roaring back convincingly.

9/2 now! It's almost like that time when the bookmakers foolishly put Ireland at 3/1 to defeat the West Indies at the World Cup, or when Faugheen was near evens at Cheltenham this year, only with a greater level of generosity.

[guildfordbat]

People do forget though, those dreaded words when C4 had the rights "and now off to Kempton for the 3:30"

...

Amongst the worst words ever heard!

...and to make matters worse, before any sort of action began there was typically a quarter of an hour wasted showing horses wandering aimlessly around the paddock....

''And welcome back to the cricket. Unfortunately, while you were gone England lost three middle order wickets and now we're off for bad light. However, every cloud has a silver lining to speak, and so we can go straight back to Kempton for the presentation of the Cart Horse Stakes Trophy. After that, we'll be staying at Kempton for the 4:05 and then, a real treat in store I can promise you, a chat with Rory Bremner recorded during the lunch break in which he does his famous Geoffrey - or should I say, Sir Geoffrey - Boycott impression. ''

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