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Next season, make or break for the regions ?

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:08 pm

Ok, so here we have it, next season will see Roger Lewis step down and Gareth Davies take over, players are being kept in Wales with dual contracts so we will not have summer of anxiety and worry about our regions losing their best players, we seem to be having a lot more stability with the professional game in Wales and the fighting has stopped. For me next season is make or break for the regions, if Scarlets lose another 1.7 million then I think this will be the last you see of the West Wales region, and Cardiff Blues have a lot of rebuilding to do, Ospreys and Dragons now need to build on their improvements, Roger Lewis is going, there will be nobody to blame any more, unless we all turn on Gareth Davies, for me next year must see an improvement if not, then I think we could well see more big changes to the professional game in Wales.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:33 pm

With the exception of the Blues this season is something of a rarity for the regions. They are going into the new season with pretty settled coaching teams and squads. So this season is the season where excuses like, we are a team developing or the coaching team need to bed in, will no longer hold water (granted there will be other excuses).

I don't see there being much change in the fortunes of the regions though (possibly the Blues to improve their placing). I think in the Champions Cup we will see valiant efforts, but not knock out rugby. Where as in the Challenge Cup I expect both the Dragons and Blues to be exiting their groups and looking for a semi-final (if not final). And in the Pro12 I think we will see on team in the play-offs, another team in the RCC qualification spots, with the other two sides sitting near the RCC spots, but never quite reaching them.

Also I think the 1.7m loss at PYS is blown out of perspective, seeing as we also have 6m new investment coming in.
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Post by LordDowlais Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:35 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Also I think the 1.7m loss at PYS is blown out of perspective, seeing as we also have 6m new investment coming in.

This is exactly what I was thinking, it made no sense to me, I can remember talking about this 6m investment but it seems to have gone quiet, any news on it SS ?

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Post by HammerofThunor Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:39 pm

I thought Gareth Davies was the chairman not the CEO. Is he replacing Lewis as CEO or are they bringing someone else in?

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:40 pm

It was voted through (I believe), but since then I have not heard anything either. However I think it was going on academy and/or paying of debts.
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Post by Guest Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:40 pm

What big changes do you foresee?

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:40 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:I thought Gareth Davies was the chairman not the CEO. Is he replacing Lewis as CEO or are they bringing someone else in?

Pretty sure I have read that they are 'searching the world' for a suitable replacement for Lewis.
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Post by LordDowlais Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:45 pm

Risca Rev wrote:What big changes do you foresee?

Well unless the Scarlets sort out their finances then we could see them go the way of the Warriors for a start.

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Post by GavinDragon Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:57 pm

I can only see more of the same if I am honest. The Ospreys out best hope in Pro 12 playoffs and RCC

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Post by Seagultaf Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:58 pm

Not sure what to make of the Scarlets financial loss. You cannot imagine their wages bill has increased as they have lost big earners and brought in journey men? Gates have been down but also they have not been subsidising cheap or free tickets, so that should balance out. They have big debts to service, from the pre region days and for the new stadium but surely that's not £1m per year?

Maybe they have used the dispute with the WRU to clear the decks and release all of the bad news in one hit, if so maybe we will see them stronger than ever next year? If not then surely some more drastic action will be needed?

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:00 pm

GavinDragon wrote:I can only see more of the same if I am honest. The Ospreys out best hope in Pro 12 playoffs and RCC

Yup.

This is just going to carry on year after year unless there are improved income streams. No Welsh region will get out of their RCC Group without a miracle.

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Post by Guest Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:06 pm

Some are predicting doom and gloom after the report on £1.7m debt came out, but is it not a bit early to be so pessimistic? I don't think anyone really knows the breakdown of this debt. Have there been one-off big payments? There is also the fact that extra revenue is expected from the new PA agreement and the Euro money. This may go some way to clearing debt. Things might not be as bad as some expect.

I did read that scarlets are going to release a statement soon that will make clear their financial position.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:32 pm

Munchkin wrote:Some are predicting doom and gloom after the report on £1.7m debt came out, but is it not a bit early to be so pessimistic? I don't think anyone really knows the breakdown of this debt. Have there been one-off big payments? There is also the fact that extra revenue is expected from the new PA agreement and the Euro money. This may go some way to clearing debt. Things might not be as bad as some expect.

I did read that scarlets are going to release a statement soon that will make clear their financial position.

I can tell you the Wales Online article for that press release now

"Skint Scarlets

The Scarlets are skint. The Llanelli based side are cash strapped, and as a result they are haemorrhaging the handful of decent players they have. And this is in spite of the union coming to the aid of all four regions with the dawn on the new National Dual Contract, of which the Llanelli based side have managed to hold on to Scott Williams, Samson Lee, Rhodri Jones and Jake Ball.

Gareth Jenkins was interviewed by [insert another decent news outlet] and said "we are not in as bad a financial situation as the figures show", well we all know Jenkins is not the sharpest tool in the box. Jenkins saw Wales crash out of the 2007 Rugby World Cup, and is doing his level best to ensure that the Scarlets crash out of the regional game too.

The cash strapped Llanelli outfit barely snuck into this years Rugby Champions Cup, with the final round of Pro12 fixtures fortunately working in their favour. However, they have seen a fail in attendances due to their lack of investment, and are looking down the barrel of another humiliating season in the Rugby Championship Cup again this year, where they will be fortunate to pick up a solitary win in a pool stacked with top class teams."

Or something like that.
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Post by LordDowlais Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:36 pm

For me, and I know I will not be popular with some for saying this, but Scarlets should have never been given stand alone status from the start. They are clearly not viable and cannot generate enough support to be a region, they should have been merged with Swansea to be a West Wales region from the start.

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Post by Guest Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:54 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Some are predicting doom and gloom after the report on £1.7m debt came out, but is it not a bit early to be so pessimistic? I don't think anyone really knows the breakdown of this debt. Have there been one-off big payments? There is also the fact that extra revenue is expected from the new PA agreement and the Euro money. This may go some way to clearing debt. Things might not be as bad as some expect.

I did read that scarlets are going to release a statement soon that will make clear their financial position.

I can tell you the Wales Online article for that press release now

"Skint Scarlets

The Scarlets are skint.  The Llanelli based side are cash strapped, and as a result they are haemorrhaging the handful of decent players they have.  And this is in spite of the union coming to the aid of all four regions with the dawn on the new National Dual Contract, of which the Llanelli based side have managed to hold on to Scott Williams, Samson Lee, Rhodri Jones and Jake Ball.

Gareth Jenkins was interviewed by [insert another decent news outlet] and said "we are not in as bad a financial situation as the figures show", well we all know Jenkins is not the sharpest tool in the box.  Jenkins saw Wales crash out of the 2007 Rugby World Cup, and is doing his level best to ensure that the Scarlets crash out of the regional game too.

The cash strapped Llanelli outfit barely snuck into this years Rugby Champions Cup, with the final round of Pro12 fixtures fortunately working in their favour.  However, they have seen a fail in attendances due to their lack of investment, and are looking down the barrel of another humiliating season in the Rugby Championship Cup again this year, where they will be fortunate to pick up a solitary win in a pool stacked with top class teams."

Or something like that.

That is very believable. You could get a job with the fail Very Happy

Yep, they might spin it that way, but hopefully what Scarlets have to say will help remove any fear of their impending doom. I find it all a bit strange, and I don't think it's as bad as some are trying to make out. The 2014/15 accounts may well be much healthier, and because of the increase of revenue, the future not so bleak. Wait and see I say.

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Post by rodders Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:05 pm

LordDowlais wrote:For me, and I know I will not be popular with some for saying this, but Scarlets should have never been given stand alone status from the start. They are clearly not viable and cannot generate enough support to be a region, they should have been merged with Swansea to be a West Wales region from the start.

This is a really good point. Can Wales really sustain 4 pro teams. Scotland can only manage 2, Ireland 4 and these are all Union owned and both have much bigger populations.

If Wales wants >3 teams, is this sustainable as stand alone entities? Do the existing regional boundaries need redrawn and some teams merge? If so how would they look?

Cardiff + Newport - East
Swansea/Neath/Llanelli - West
Aberystwth/Bangor/Wrexam - North
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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:18 pm

rodders wrote:  

Cardiff + Newport - East
Swansea/Neath/Llanelli - West
Aberystwth/Bangor/Wrexam - North

And I get accused of winding people up?

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Post by HammerofThunor Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:34 pm

LordDowlais wrote:For me, and I know I will not be popular with some for saying this, but Scarlets should have never been given stand alone status from the start. They are clearly not viable and cannot generate enough support to be a region, they should have been merged with Swansea to be a West Wales region from the start.

Out of curiosity what are the finances of the other regions like? I presume they're all making a decent profit?

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Post by Seagultaf Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:50 pm

LordDowlais wrote:For me, and I know I will not be popular with some for saying this, but Scarlets should have never been given stand alone status from the start. They are clearly not viable and cannot generate enough support to be a region, they should have been merged with Swansea to be a West Wales region from the start.
#
If you recall this was proposed but as the Whites were insolvent, it was not an option as they would have taken the Llanelli based side down with them. The solution was to merge the equally insolvent Neath side with the Whites allow both to go bankrupt and establish the Ospreys as the only Welsh Region without any debt carried over from its semi pro sides.

The fact is that the current Regional map does not work, for many Ospralians PYS is the closest Regional ground and historically local teams like; Gorseinon, Penclawdd, Gowerton etc., provided many players to the Llanelli based Scarlets side. This now does not happen as they are all part of the Ospreys region and with them goes a lot of the Scarlets traditional support.

There is a similar problem in the east with Cardiff and the Dragons grounds only a few miles apart but I cant see that the answer is a North Wales based side as they will struggle for support even more than the current regions in the South.

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Post by rodders Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:51 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
rodders wrote:  

Cardiff + Newport - East
Swansea/Neath/Llanelli - West
Aberystwth/Bangor/Wrexam - North

And I get accused of winding people up?

Just trying to throw a dog a bone - what would you prefer chunks?
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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:17 pm

rodders wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
rodders wrote:  

Cardiff + Newport - East
Swansea/Neath/Llanelli - West
Aberystwth/Bangor/Wrexam - North

And I get accused of winding people up?

Just trying to throw a dog a bone - what would you prefer chunks?

Leave it a it is, and try to increase the income streams. Just because a team is in debt, doesn't mean they immediately need to merge with their nearest rivals.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:22 pm

Does anyone on these boards understand where WEST wales is? I seriously wonder. Swansea is not in the West. It is as central (south) as you can get, maybe even slightly East, but definitely not WEST!

But what would someone who actually likes in the West of Wales know about it eh?
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Post by Steffan Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:51 pm

These maps highlight how shockingly close to each other the "regions" are in Wales compared to the provinces in Ireland

Next season, make or break for the regions ? 11209511_10153097294493089_8083363953173232771_n

Next season, make or break for the regions ? 10404308_10153097294818089_3334286476579860567_n

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:53 pm

Steffan wrote:These maps highlight how shockingly close to each other the "regions" are in Wales compared to the provinces in Ireland

Next season, make or break for the regions ? 11209511_10153097294493089_8083363953173232771_n

Next season, make or break for the regions ? 10404308_10153097294818089_3334286476579860567_n

I must be missing something here. What does that prove?

I would imagine, if you did a map showing make up of professional rugby players origin, the map lines would be very similar.

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Post by rodders Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:53 pm

Yes in geographical terms that's fine - but in the interest of demographics if you put Swansea in with Cardiff that leaves Llanelli and Neath.

Can't you guys put your neighborly squabbles aside in the interest of putting together a sustainable domestic pro rugby set up?

The managed it down in Munster.
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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:57 pm

rodders wrote:Yes in geographical terms that's fine - but in the interest of demographics if you put Swansea in with Cardiff that leaves Llanelli and Neath.


How does that work? What are you sugegsting here?

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:06 pm

From the start it should have been West Wales, Mid Wales/Valleys, East Wales and North Wales.

Llanelli should have merged with Swansea, Newport should have merged with Cardiff, Pontypridd with Ebbw Vale and perhaps Neath. Then the whole of North Wales.

North Wales would have been a development region to start with, but imagine how they would be now 13yrs down the line.

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Post by Steffan Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:09 pm

LordDowlais wrote:From the start it should have been West Wales, Mid Wales/Valleys, East Wales and North Wales.

Llanelli should have merged with Swansea, Newport should have merged with Cardiff, Pontypridd with Ebbw Vale and perhaps Neath. Then the whole of North Wales.

North Wales would have been a development region to start with, but imagine how they would be now 13yrs down the line.
I agree with all of what you said LD but this system of real regions would have required common sense

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Post by rodders Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:09 pm

Good shout lord.
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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:09 pm

LordDowlais wrote:

Llanelli should have merged with Swansea.

Yet you say Pontypridd would never merge with their sworn rivals Cardiff. So why would Llanelli have ever merged with their sworn rivals Swansea?

It's nonsensical, and would just destroy rugby in South and West Wales.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:13 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:So why would Llanelli have ever merged with their sworn rivals Swansea?

So what you are saying is that we would have the same scenario with Llanelli as we are now having with Pontypridd ? Yet it is Ponty who are the virus of Welsh rugby. Rolling Eyes

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:15 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:So why would Llanelli have ever merged with their sworn rivals Swansea?

So what you are saying is that we would have the same scenario with Llanelli as we are now having with Pontypridd ? Yet it is Ponty who are the virus of Welsh rugby. Rolling Eyes

Why would we have the same scenario with Llanelli?

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:15 pm

Steffan wrote:I agree with all of what you said LD but this system of real regions would have required common sense

Common sense, and no threats to take an already close to bankrupt union to court.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:16 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:Why would we have the same scenario with Llanelli?

Because you said they would never merge with Swansea.

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Post by Steffan Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:17 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:So why would Llanelli have ever merged with their sworn rivals Swansea?

So what you are saying is that we would have the same scenario with Llanelli as we are now having with Pontypridd ? Yet it is Ponty who are the virus of Welsh rugby
Exactly LD. Llanelli don't want to have a West Wales reason with Swanea as they are rivals...that's fine

Pontypridd don't want to be part of a "region" with 'Cardiff' in the name as they are rivals...Ponty are the scurge of Welsh rugby

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:18 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:Why would we have the same scenario with Llanelli?

Because you said they would never merge with Swansea.

Right. They should be, and are, a standalone entity. Sorry for Ponty that they weren't, but it's dog eat dog.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:20 pm

Steffan wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:So why would Llanelli have ever merged with their sworn rivals Swansea?

So what you are saying is that we would have the same scenario with Llanelli as we are now having with Pontypridd ? Yet it is Ponty who are the virus of Welsh rugby
Exactly LD. Llanelli don't want to have a West Wales reason with Swanea as they are rivals...that's fine

Pontypridd don't want to be part of a "region" with 'Cardiff' in the name as they are rivals...Ponty are the scurge of Welsh rugby

One rule for one team and supporters and one for another on here it is

I think you have to look at the way Ponty behave in the public domain. Their recent programme notes having a pop at the current regions being a case in point. Bemoaning the Scarlets attendances (then hilariously the following week the Scarlets got over 10k at a home game and Ponty got 2,200 at their final)

This doesn't help their cause.

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Post by Steffan Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:22 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:Sorry for Ponty that they weren't, but it's dog eat dog
Yet when Ponty stick up for themselves in this dog eat dog environment of Welsh rugby and argue that they should be given the chance to play in the B&I Cup then they are ripped to shreds on here for it...

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:23 pm

Steffan wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:Sorry for Ponty that they weren't, but it's dog eat dog
Yet when Ponty stick up for themselves in this dog eat dog environment of Welsh rugby and argue that they should be given the chance to play in the B&I Cup then they are ripped to shreds on here for it...

Because they keep embararssing themselves.

"'We've dominated elite rugby for the last 5 years in Wales"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/32717722

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:23 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:I think you have to look at the way Ponty behave in the public domain

It was no different to how Llanelli RFC and their fans behaved at the start of regionalism.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:24 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:I think you have to look at the way Ponty behave in the public domain

It was no different to how Llanelli RFC and their fans behaved at the start of regionalism.

I think that's where we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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Post by Weegie Wizard Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:25 pm

If the Scarlets are so skint, can we have Barclay and DTH back please? Sad

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:26 pm

Weegie Wizard wrote:If the Scarlets are so skint, can we have Barclay and DTH back please? Sad

Well they signed DTH after the period that these results are for, so who knows what the accounts actually look like today.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:12 pm

Steffan wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:So why would Llanelli have ever merged with their sworn rivals Swansea?

So what you are saying is that we would have the same scenario with Llanelli as we are now having with Pontypridd ? Yet it is Ponty who are the virus of Welsh rugby
Exactly LD. Llanelli don't want to have a West Wales reason with Swanea as they are rivals...that's fine

Pontypridd don't want to be part of a "region" with 'Cardiff' in the name as they are rivals...Ponty are the scurge of Welsh rugby

One rule for one team and supporters and one for another on here it is

Far more to do with Swansea not being WEST.

Funny how everyone says there should be West, South, Easy and North. But nobody seems to understand that would be Scarlets (west), Ospreys (south), combined Blues/Dragons (East) and RGC (North). Unless you lot actually want west/South/East even closer geographical than they are now.
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Post by Cardiff Dave Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:35 pm

rodders wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:For me, and I know I will not be popular with some for saying this, but Scarlets should have never been given stand alone status from the start. They are clearly not viable and cannot generate enough support to be a region, they should have been merged with Swansea to be a West Wales region from the start.

This is a really good point. Can Wales really sustain 4 pro teams. Scotland can only manage 2, Ireland 4 and these are all Union owned and both have much bigger populations.

If Wales wants >3 teams, is this sustainable as stand alone entities? Do the existing regional boundaries need redrawn and some teams merge? If so how would they look?  

Cardiff + Newport - East
Swansea/Neath/Llanelli - West
Aberystwth/Bangor/Wrexam - North

Sounds like a larff. Get out your felt tips.
Pointless exercise though as we'll still have Cardiff, Newport Drags, Swanspreys and the Terks being the 4 pro teams.


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Post by Cardiff Dave Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:38 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Steffan wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:So why would Llanelli have ever merged with their sworn rivals Swansea?

So what you are saying is that we would have the same scenario with Llanelli as we are now having with Pontypridd ? Yet it is Ponty who are the virus of Welsh rugby
Exactly LD. Llanelli don't want to have a West Wales reason with Swanea as they are rivals...that's fine

Pontypridd don't want to be part of a "region" with 'Cardiff' in the name as they are rivals...Ponty are the scurge of Welsh rugby

One rule for one team and supporters and one for another on here it is

Far more to do with Swansea not being WEST.  

Funny how everyone says there should be West, South, Easy and North.  But nobody seems to understand that would be Scarlets (west), Ospreys (south), combined Blues/Dragons (East) and RGC (North).  Unless you lot actually want west/South/East even closer geographical than they are now.

What about mid Wales? They're entitled to a region too, shewerly?

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Post by Cardiff Dave Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:35 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Steffan wrote:I agree with all of what you said LD but this system of real regions would have required common sense

Common sense, and no threats to take an already close to bankrupt union to court.

"Russell backed the Moffett letter and claimed Llanelli, Cardiff and Pontypridd - the opponents of the four-team regional plan - could not use the loyalty agreement, which runs out in four years time, as a basis for court action against the WRU."

http://www.ponty.net/-sick-of-wait-moffett-tears-up-clubs-deal-0

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Post by Cardiff Dave Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:41 pm

Thought i'd add this re Ponty;

"I was at great pains to tell them we have no benefactor and that we couldn't continue to pay"

http://www.ponty.net/ponty-poised-to-release-players0

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Post by Cardiff Dave Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:01 pm

rodders wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
rodders wrote:  

Cardiff + Newport - East
Swansea/Neath/Llanelli - West
Aberystwth/Bangor/Wrexam - North

And I get accused of winding people up?

Just trying to throw a dog a bone - what would you prefer chunks?

An end to the BS and truck loads of honesty, would be nice.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:08 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Steffan wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:So why would Llanelli have ever merged with their sworn rivals Swansea?

So what you are saying is that we would have the same scenario with Llanelli as we are now having with Pontypridd ? Yet it is Ponty who are the virus of Welsh rugby
Exactly LD. Llanelli don't want to have a West Wales reason with Swanea as they are rivals...that's fine

Pontypridd don't want to be part of a "region" with 'Cardiff' in the name as they are rivals...Ponty are the scurge of Welsh rugby

One rule for one team and supporters and one for another on here it is

Far more to do with Swansea not being WEST.  

Funny how everyone says there should be West, South, Easy and North.  But nobody seems to understand that would be Scarlets (west), Ospreys (south), combined Blues/Dragons (East) and RGC (North).  Unless you lot actually want west/South/East even closer geographical than they are now.

What about mid Wales? They're entitled to a region too, shewerly?

This is true. Five regions, now there's a thought....
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