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Rugby Champions Cup 2015-16 - Tiers

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Post by brennomac Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:05 pm

First topic message reminder :

Early days I know to be thinking about the RCC for 2015-16 with the Top 14 still not passed through the semi final stage, but as things stand this seems how the four tiers will work out:

Tier 1 – Glasgow, Saracens, Winner Top14 final, one of Munster/Bath/Loser Top 14 final, one of Munster/Bath/Loser Top 14 final

Tier 2 – one of Munster/Bath/Loser Top 14 final, Ospreys, Northampton, better Top 14 losing SF, one of Ulster/Leicester/worse Top 14 losing SF

Tier 3 - one of Ulster/Leicester/worse Top 14 losing SF, one of Ulster/Leicester/worse Top 14 losing SF, Leinster, Exeter, Racing Metro

Tier 4 – Scarlets, Wasps, Oyonnax, Treviso, Bordeaux

For Tiers 1 and 2, anybody know how the two from Munster, Bath and the losing Top 14 finalist who will go into Tier 1 and the one from that group who will go into Tier 2 will be picked - do they pick them out of a hat or what?.  Likewise for Tier 2 and 3, do they pick one from Ulster, Leicester and the worse Top 14 semi-finalist  to go into Tier 2 and the two others go into Tier 3.

From a Leinster point of view we're paying for our sh1te season and could potentially face the Top 14 winner - presume it'll be Toulon of Clermont, Bath and Scarlets - not a nice prospect.  Alternatively we could face Saracens, Northampton and Treviso - not easy but certainly more palatable. Quite happy to be in same tier as Exeter - wouldn't fancy playing them.  

Lots of permutations for all you fans of the other 19 teams to contemplate

****

Edit: Draw has now been made for both competitions and the pools look like this:

2015/16 Champions Cup pools

Pool 1: Saracens, Ulster Rugby, Toulouse, Oyonnax
Pool 2: ASM Clermont Auvergne, Ospreys, Exeter Chiefs, Bordeaux-Bègles
Pool 3: Glasgow Warriors, Northampton Saints, Racing 92, Scarlets
Pool 4: Stade Français Rugby, Munster Rugby, Leicester Tigers, Benetton Treviso
Pool 5: Bath Rugby, RC Toulon, Leinster Rugby, Wasps

2015/16 Challenge Cup pools

Pool 1: Connacht Rugby, Brive, Newcastle Falcons, Eniset-STM
Pool 2: Sale Sharks, Newport Gwent Dragons, Castres Olympique, Pau
Pool 3: Montpellier, Harlequins, Cardiff Blues, Cammi Rugby Calvisano
Pool 4: La Rochelle, Gloucester Rugby, Zebre Rugby, Worcester Warriors
Pool 5: Edinburgh Rugby, London Irish, Grenoble, Agen

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Post by Fanster Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:25 am

marty2086 wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Having the Amlin winner go straight into the ERCC would make for a fresh whipping boy for the rest of the ERCC teams and lead to an imbalanced group,


Different ways of looking at the same facts

Don't see where you get the imbalance argument from? With the exception of Newcastle and L. Irish all the quarter finalists of this years competition were in contention for a ERCC place going into the last games of the season

I agree, would Goucester be whipping boys in the ERCC? I think it's also reasonable to assume that with a lucrative ERCC place on offer more teams would take it more seriously, and come quarter finals the level of rugby would be higher, meaning the winner would have to be of ERCC quality?

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Post by The Saint Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:47 am

Too bad Ospreys. You'll surely be the only team in history to get back-to-back pastings from Northampton three years on the bounce.

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Post by Stewie15 Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:19 pm

The Saint wrote:Too bad Ospreys. You'll surely be the only team in history to get back-to-back pastings from Northampton three years on the bounce.
Ospreys and Northampton are in the same tier, they can't be drawn together in a pool.

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Post by marty2086 Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:06 pm

Fanster wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Having the Amlin winner go straight into the ERCC would make for a fresh whipping boy for the rest of the ERCC teams and lead to an imbalanced group,


Different ways of looking at the same facts

Don't see where you get the imbalance argument from? With the exception of Newcastle and L. Irish all the quarter finalists of this years competition were in contention for a ERCC place going into the last games of the season

I agree, would Goucester be whipping boys in the ERCC? I think it's also reasonable to assume that with a lucrative ERCC place on offer more teams would take it more seriously, and come quarter finals the level of rugby would be higher, meaning the winner would have to be of ERCC quality?

That's the hope anyway

There should also be a third tier for some of the developing nations with the winner(and maybe runner up too) progressing to the next years Amlin.

Not only should this provide them with a higher level of competition and helps them develop their players and the game in their regions but it opens up new markets to the established unions and teams. The potential that Germany, Russia and Spain alone offer for the growth of the game.

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Post by The Saint Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:09 pm

Stewie15 wrote:
The Saint wrote:Too bad Ospreys. You'll surely be the only team in history to get back-to-back pastings from Northampton three years on the bounce.
Ospreys and Northampton are in the same tier, they can't be drawn together in a pool.

Teams in the top 2/4 of their domestic league are not drawn together in the same pool? Was it drawn this way last year?

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Post by MichaelT Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:30 pm

marty2086 wrote:There should also be a third tier for some of the developing nations with the winner(and maybe runner up too) progressing to the next years Amlin.

There is a third tier. It is very small at the moment - 4 teams - but considering teams in the Champions Cup were beating each other by 40/ 50 points, the Challenger Cup got one 100 point score, I imagine those four teams are the only ones who could be considered somewhat competitive.

I don't think a 200 point victory would be good for anyone involved.

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Post by marty2086 Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:43 pm

MichaelT wrote:
marty2086 wrote:There should also be a third tier for some of the developing nations with the winner(and maybe runner up too) progressing to the next years Amlin.

There is a third tier. It is very small at the moment - 4 teams - but considering teams in the Champions Cup were beating each other by 40/ 50 points, the Challenger Cup got one 100 point score, I imagine those four teams are the only ones who could be considered somewhat competitive.

I don't think a 200 point victory would be good for anyone involved.

Michael your right, I was under the impression the plans had been shelved for it.

This seasons actually had 6 teams, 3 of which were Italian

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Post by Stewie15 Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:47 pm

The Saint wrote:
Stewie15 wrote:
The Saint wrote:Too bad Ospreys. You'll surely be the only team in history to get back-to-back pastings from Northampton three years on the bounce.
Ospreys and Northampton are in the same tier, they can't be drawn together in a pool.

Teams in the top 2/4 of their domestic league are not drawn together in the same pool? Was it drawn this way last year?
Here are the permutations for Ospreys:

(France1 = Winner of Clermont/Stade Francais, France 2 = Loser of Clermont/Stade Francais)

If Munster in Pot 2

Pot 1: Saracens, Glasgow, France1, Bath, France2
Pot 2: Munster, Northampton, Ospreys, Toulon, Ulster
Pot 3: Leicester, Toulouse, Leinster, Exeter, Racing Metro
Pot 4: Scarlets, Wasps, Treviso, Bordeaux, Oyonnax

Saracens, Ospreys, Toulouse, Pot 4 team
Saracens, Ospreys, Racing Metro, Pot 4 team

France1, Ospreys, Leicester, Pot 4 team
France1, Ospreys, Exeter, Pot 4 team

Bath, Ospreys, Toulouse, Pot 4 team
Bath, Ospreys, Racing Metro, Pot 4 team

France2, Ospreys, Leicester, Pot 4 team
France2, Ospreys, Exeter, Pot 4 team

If Bath in Pot 2

Pot 1: Saracens, Glasgow, France1, Munster, France2
Pot 2: Bath, Northampton, Ospreys, Toulon, Leicester
Pot 3: Ulster, Toulouse, Leinster, Exeter, Racing Metro
Pot 4: Scarlets, Wasps, Treviso, Bordeaux, Oyonnax

Saracens, Ospreys, Toulouse, Pot 4 team
Saracens, Ospreys, Racing Metro, Pot 4 team

France1, Ospreys, Leicester, Pot 4 team
France1, Ospreys, Exeter, Pot 4 team

France2, Ospreys, Leicester, Pot 4 team
France2, Ospreys, Exeter, Pot 4 team

If France2 in Pot 2

Pot 1: Saracens, Glasgow, France1, Bath, Munster
Pot 2: France2, Northampton, Ospreys, Toulon, Toulouse
Pot 3: Leicester, Ulster, Leinster, Exeter, Racing Metro
Pot 4: Scarlets, Wasps, Treviso, Bordeaux, Oyonnax

Saracens, Ospreys, Toulouse, Pot 4 team
Saracens, Ospreys, Racing Metro, Pot 4 team

France1, Ospreys, Leicester, Pot 4 team
France1, Ospreys, Exeter, Pot 4 team

Bath, Ospreys, Toulouse, Pot 4 team
Bath, Ospreys, Racing Metro, Pot 4 team

*Any Pot 4 team except Scarlets

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Post by The Saint Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:28 am

Thanks Stewie.

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Post by Sin é Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:08 pm

The draw is today.

Final probably going to be in a new football stadium in Lyon next season and will be 2 weeks later than this year. Seems like it is a steep learning curve for our new overlords.
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Post by Fanster Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:48 pm

So Italy weren't even pushed a year for Twickenham? Will they ever see the final?

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Post by whocares Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:54 pm

Lyon would be a bad choice unless they foresee yet another clermont-toulon final...

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Post by Sin é Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:01 pm

whocares wrote:Lyon would be a bad choice unless they foresee yet another clermont-toulon final...

All they need is one French team and they are likely to get that.

I wouldn't be mad about Lyon as a hosting city. Its more of a football town I think.
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Post by Fanster Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:09 pm

How is the decision made? Does anyone know?

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Post by Sin é Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:16 pm

Fanster wrote:How is the decision made? Does anyone know?

Bidding process. From article linked, it seems that Bordeaux, Marseille and SRU with Murrayfield put in bids.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/european-rugby/11679982/Champions-Cup-final-to-be-held-in-Lyon-in-2016.html
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Post by PenfroPete Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:20 pm

Twickenham 2017 Wink
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Post by Sin é Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:22 pm

PenfroPete wrote:Twickenham 2017 Wink

More likely Wembley. Whistle
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Post by Notch Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:23 pm

Here's hoping the one in three chance that Munster are NOT in Tier One comes off!
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Post by Sin é Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:43 pm

I wouldn't worry too much Notch about what group you are in. It will make no difference. They are announcing 'radical' changes apparently. I reckon the Pro12 teams will have to play qualifiers to make it, with Saracens & Bath straight into the semis with the Irish teams that make it out of the qualifiers having to play Toulon x 2 in the South of France. Smile

Its what the fans want.
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Post by Notch Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:53 pm

Radical changes to this years tournament format? Or future years?
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Post by Cyril Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:54 pm

For the good of rugby (and humanity in general) we need Munster to get an easier pool this time round.

The business end of the tournament without 'the best fans in the world' doesn't bear thinking about.

Hopefully World Rugby will step in if necessary.

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Post by killer938 Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:05 pm

Lyon itself is more of a football city in terms of the Lyon teams ie the football team is more popular than the rugby team, which obviously isn't surprising given the difference in relative quality of the two teams and the history of the teams as well, but there are still a lot of rugby fans here with a lot of Clermont, Toulouse and Toulon (possibly recent in this case) fans around

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Post by Guest Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:09 pm

Cyril wrote:For the good of rugby (and humanity in general) we need Munster to get an easier pool this time round.

The business end of the tournament without 'the best fans in the world' doesn't bear thinking about.

Hopefully World Rugby will step in if necessary.

I agree, Munster fans would be up there with the best in world in terms of away support and helping create a great atmosphere. Well said.

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Post by Guest Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:12 pm

As much as I have enjoyed us playing against Leicester in the past I do hope we don't draw them this time around. It would be nice to play against someone else for a change.

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Post by Hazel Sapling Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:23 pm

Hosts announced for Champions Cup

Lyon for 2016 and Edinburgh for 2017

Interesting that they have not announced the 2017 challenge cup final location other than saying Edinburgh. Could they be thinking Scotstoun will have expanded enough by then and host in Glasgow?

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Post by Sin é Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:25 pm

Hazel Sapling wrote:Hosts announced for Champions Cup

Lyon for 2016 and Edinburgh for 2017

Interesting that they have not announced the 2017 challenge cup final location other than saying Edinburgh. Could they be thinking Scotstoun will have expanded enough by then and host in Glasgow?

Payback time to the Scots then Rolling Eyes
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Post by marty2086 Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:26 pm

Hazel Sapling wrote:Hosts announced for Champions Cup

Lyon for 2016 and Edinburgh for 2017

Interesting that they have not announced the 2017 challenge cup final location other than saying Edinburgh. Could they be thinking Scotstoun will have expanded enough by then and host in Glasgow?

They tend to host in one city, more than likely with Edinburghs move itll be at Easter Road

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Post by Notch Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:29 pm

killer938 wrote:Lyon itself is more of a football city in terms of the Lyon teams ie the football team is more popular than the rugby team, which obviously isn't surprising given the difference in relative quality of the two teams and the history of the teams as well, but there are still a lot of rugby fans here with a lot of Clermont, Toulouse and Toulon (possibly recent in this case) fans around

Sod's law suggests that this year is the year that the French domination is broken then and we get a non-French final Smile

Wishful thinking! Seems like a safe bet there will be a French team...
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Post by Notch Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:31 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Hazel Sapling wrote:Hosts announced for Champions Cup

Lyon for 2016 and Edinburgh for 2017

Interesting that they have not announced the 2017 challenge cup final location other than saying Edinburgh. Could they be thinking Scotstoun will have expanded enough by then and host in Glasgow?

They tend to host in one city, more than likely with Edinburghs move itll be at Easter Road

Or they have a double-header at Murrayfield. That would be interesting.
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Post by IanBru Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:33 pm

Does anyone else have blood coming out of their ears?

What a palaver!
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Post by whocares Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:34 pm

anyone has a link for the draw?

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Post by Welly Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:36 pm

https://youtu.be/y-r-UKzuYL4

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Post by Notch Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:36 pm

whocares- http://live.epcrugby.com/eng/player1.php

In case anyone is wondering about the newcomers to the Challenge Cup, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yenisey-STM_Krasnoyarsk

It's a long away trip to Siberia.
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Post by Sin é Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:36 pm

whocares wrote:anyone has a link for the draw?

http://live.epcrugby.com/eng/player1.php

They are on a little break now though.
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Post by Welly Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:37 pm

IMO the YouTube one is better quality.

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Post by Sin é Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:37 pm

Notch wrote:whocares- http://live.epcrugby.com/eng/player1.php

In case anyone is wondering about the newcomers to the Challenge Cup, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yenisey-STM_Krasnoyarsk

It's a long away trip to Siberia.

I think they play in Sochi though. Good team. They played Munster academy/under age team last year and won.

edit:

Wednesday night saw a Munster Development XV loose narrowly to Russian outfit Enisei-STM in Musgrave Park, Cork. This was the fourth time the teams have met in five years and last night saw the Russians score their second win on the trot over Munster.
Enisei displayed dominance up front for the first fifteen minutes, the visitors getting the better of Munster in both the scrum and maul. Keeping it tight at first, Enisei then spread it wide, sending their fly half over the line close to the posts after 4 minutes.

Munster had little of the ball for the first fifteen minutes and didn't help themselves by failing to secure their own line out ball, missing touch from a penalty and running the ball into touch on a couple of occasions. The home side eventually got a foothold in the game after 16 minutes when a great run from Niall Kenneally saw Steve McMahon run in their first try. Tom Kiersey was on hand to convert.

Enisei forwards continued to prove formidable opposition with a number of line out steals and were effective in neutralising the Munster maul. The pressure ultimately saw Munster penalised for repeated offside and Dan Goggin received ten minutes in the sin bin.

The second twenty minutes treated onlookers to a wealth of tries, Darren Moroney with an intercept try after 27 minutes and the Enisei full back replying just minutes later. The try of the half went to Munster full back Steve McMahon whose dancing footwork saw him beat a number of defenders for Munster's fourth try.

Alex Wootton brought the first half to a happy conclusion for the hosts, picking up loose ball from the side of a ruck and running the length of the field to score. With Tom Kiersey kicking all conversions, it was Munster 28 Enesei-STM 12 at half time

Half time saw the introduction of Lee Nicholas and Greg O'Shea for Munster but the home side failed to kick on from their impressive end to the first half and it was the visitors who drew first blood with a try on 51 minutes.

Munster's defence was caught napping when a number of missed tackles saw Enisei through again on the 60th and 64th minute respectively.

With all replacements introduced during the second half Munster continued to struggle up front, often failing to secure their own line out ball and Enisei winning most of the contested ball on the ground.

The Russian side were eventually penalised for not releasing in the tackle and had one of their pack receive a yellow card.

Rather than go for the posts to level the game, Munster chose to kick to touch and take a line out deep inside the visitors 22. Unfortunately the line out again malfunctioned for Munster with Enisei winning back possession.

That was to be the last attacking opportunity for either side with the visitors winning out on a full time score of Munster Development XV 28 Enisei-STM 31.

Overall it was a productive contest for the development side with all players getting game-time against a very physical outfit.

Munster Development XV: Steve McMahon, Darren Moroney, Dan Goggin, Niall Kenneally, Alex Wootton; Tom Kiersey, Jamie Glynn; Niall Horan, Kevin O'Byrne, Mike Lynch; Sean McCarthy, Joe McSweeny; Diarmuid Dee, Ryan Murphy, Jack O'Donoghue Capt.

Replacements from: Sean McNulty, Conor Glynn, Ger Sweeney, Lee Nicholas, John Madigan, Shane Buckley, Aidan Butler, Luke Cahill, Brian Haugh, Sam Sterling, Harry McNulty, Greg O'Shea.


Last edited by Sin é on Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Notch Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:38 pm

Munchkin wrote:As much as I have enjoyed us playing against Leicester in the past I do hope we don't draw them this time around. It would be nice to play against someone else for a change.

This. It would be good to resume the rivalry with Stade Francais! And to maybe see teams we haven't played against before make the trip- Exeter, Bordeaux, Oyonnax...
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Post by Welly Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:39 pm

Please don't give us Ulster!!!! Fed up of playing them.

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Post by whocares Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:42 pm

thanks for the links

let's hope for new matchups!

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Post by Notch Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:42 pm

Welly wrote: Please don't give us Ulster!!!! Fed up of playing getting beaten by them .


devilHug


Last edited by Notch on Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Guest Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:42 pm

Notch wrote:
Munchkin wrote:As much as I have enjoyed us playing against Leicester in the past I do hope we don't draw them this time around. It would be nice to play against someone else for a change.

This. It would be good to resume the rivalry with Stade Francais! And to maybe see teams we haven't played against before make the trip- Exeter, Bordeaux, Oyonnax...

Stade and Exeter would be great. Here's hoping Fingers Crossed

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Post by Welly Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:43 pm

Ha arsey Toulon lol

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Post by whocares Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:46 pm

did I miss the challenge cup draw?

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Post by Notch Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:47 pm

Ulster avoid Toulon at least
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Post by Welly Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:51 pm

Ha Ulster get Sarries

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Post by Notch Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:51 pm

F#¢ing Saracens censored

And that rules out Exeter too!


Last edited by Notch on Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Guest Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:51 pm

Sarries again Rolling Eyes

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Post by Notch Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:52 pm

So Ulster will get Racing or Toulouse now!
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Post by Welly Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:53 pm

Wouldn't mind Munster and Stade some old enemies there.

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Post by Welly Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:54 pm

Yes love playing Stade and Munster like old times

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