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The Southern Hemisphere Exodus - what does it mean?

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Post by George Carlin Tue 09 Jun 2015, 6:53 am

First topic message reminder :

Nice piece in WalesOnline yesterday about the number of Southern Hemisphere based players who are predictably coming north after the RWC: http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/startling-list-global-rugby-stars-9407065

I didn't realise quite how extensive that was until I saw an aggregate list:
Dan Carter: The biggest name in world rugby and he’s set to become the game’s highest-paid p
layer. All Blacks outside-half Carter, who had a brief injury-hit spell with Perpignan in 2008, has signed a three-year deal with Racing Metro, reportedly worth in excess of £1m per year. The move will mark the end of his illustrious Test career.

Will Genia: The Wallaby scrum-half was originally set to join Bath, but pulled out of a pre-contract agreement with them and signed a three-year deal with Stade Francais instead.

Ma’a Nonu: One of the most recognisable figures in the game, the dreadlocked All Blacks centre will become the latest big-name recruit for three-times European champions Toulon when he joins them after the World Cup. The 94-cap Hurricanes midfield powerhouse has signed a two-year deal with Leigh Halfpenny’s team.
 
Adam Ashley-Cooper: The man who has been Mr Consistent in the Wallaby back-line for a decade, winning more than 100 caps, will be playing in the Champions Cup next season, having agreed a two-year deal with Bordeaux, who booked their spot at Europe’s top table with a play-off win over Gloucester.

Conrad Smith:  It says everything about the financial might of French rugby that Pau were about to recruit the All Blacks’ most-capped centre Smith on a two-year deal despite being in the Second Division. With Pau having gained promotion, the 33-year-old will be playing in the Top 14 next season.

Ben Mowen: Made his Test debut for Australia at 28 and then retired from international rugby at 29, while the incumbent Wallabies skipper. The Brumbies back-rower cited an intense travel schedule and lack of time with his wife and daughter as reasons for putting family first by joining Montpellier.

Charles Piutau: When it was announced the 23-year-old All Blacks wing would be joining Ulster, it caused real shockwaves in New Zealand and it may impact on his World Cup hopes. But a two-year deal, believed to be worth £1m, was too good to turn down.

Colin Slade: The 27-year-old Crusaders and All Blacks utility back is one of the latest additions to the exodus, having signed a lucrative deal with Pau through to mid-2018. He explained it was an opportunity he just couldn’t pass up.

Bernard Foley: A special agreement has been reached enabling the 25-year-old Wallabies fly-half to play two seasons in Japan – probably for Tokyo’s Ricoh Black Rams –as part of a new three-year deal to stay in Australian rugby.

James Horwill: Like Genia, the former Wallabies skipper said goodbye to the Reds faithful at the weekend. His future now lies in England, where he will be packing down in the Harlequins second-row on a three-year deal.

Jacques du Plessis: There was massive shock in South Africa when it was announced that the 21-year-old flanker – one of the country’s brightest prospects – had been lured to Montpellier on a two-year deal.

Israel Folau: According to reports in the French media this weekend, Toulon are speaking to the Wallaby wonder.

Francis Saili: Recruiting the twice-capped Auckland Blues centre on a two-year deal is a real coup for Munster and the explosive 24-year-old is likely to make a big impact on the Pro12.

Willem Alberts: The Sharks appear resigned to losing the giant Springbok back rower after the World Cup, with the French media reporting that he is to join Parisan outfit Stade Francais.

Scott Higginbotham: The 31-cap Wallabies back-rower will put his international career on hold after the World Cup by quitting the Melbourne Rebels for a lucrative stint in Japan.

Bismarck du Plessis: One of the finest hookers in world rugby, the Springbok hard man is to play his rugby outside of South Africa after the World Cup, probably at Montpellier.

Sekope Kepu: Will be joining fellow Wallaby Ashley-Cooper at Bordeaux.

Francois Steyn: One of a host of South African stars being linked with the Jake White-coached Montpellier.

Kurtley Beale: It’s being reported Down Under that the controversial Wallaby utility back wants a flexible contract, enabling him a slice of the Japanese action.

Pierre Spies: Recent reports in the French press say that the 53-cap Springboks back-rower will leave the Bulls and play for Montpellier on a two-year contract.

Rey Lee-Lo: There is at least one Super 15 international heading to Wales, with the Samoan Test centre joining Cardiff Blues from the Hurricanes.

Francois Hougaard: Heavily linked with Leicester and Exeter, the South African scrum-half is another thought to be considering a lucrative move to Japan.

Wycliff Palu: The latest player to bid sayonara to Australian rugby, with the 51-cap Wallabies No 8 to move to Japan at the end of the year.

Quade Cooper: Cooper’s future in Australian rugby remains very much in doubt with a substantial offer from big-spending Toulon on the table.

Tom Taylor: The Crusaders utility back will be playing Second Division rugby in France next season with Bayonne having just been relegated.

Duane Vermeulen: This powerful Springbok No.8 has been linked with both Toulon and Bath.

Nic White: The 19-cap Wallaby scrum-half is to join his former Brumbies coach Jake White and captain Ben Mowen at Montpellier.

Ben Tameifuna: The giant Chiefs prop could join Carter at Racing Metro and may throw his international lot in with Tonga.

Demetri Catrakilis: Yet another South African on his way to Montpellier, the fly-half, 25, switching from the Stormers.

Peter Betham: Capped twice on the wing by Australia, the Kiwi-born Betham is joining Leicester from the Waratahs for next season.

Jannie du Plessis: Like his brother Bismarck, 62-cap prop Jannie is being linked with the southern exodus to Montpellier.

Luke Braid: The Auckland Blues flanker – younger brother of Sale captain Daniel Braid – is on his way to Bordeaux.

Flip van der Merwe: Clermont Auvergne beckons for the 35-cap South African second-row.

Wiaan Liebenberg: At just 22, the Bulls back-rower is leaving South Africa behind to join Montpellier.

Manuel Carizza: Experienced Pumas lock looks set to leave South Africa for another spell with Racing Metro.

Steven Kitshoff: A 23-year-old South African prop leaving the Stormers to ply his trade for Bordeaux.

Jesse Mogg: Wallaby full-back Mogg is to be reunited with former Brumbies coach Jake White at Montpellier. Impressed when the Lions toured Australia in 2013.

Sarel Pretorius: The Cheetahs scrum-half joins the long list of South Africans who have headed for Rodney Parade.

Api Naikatini: The Fijian back-five forward is moving from Wellington to play for newly-promoted Agen.

Schalk van der Merwe: He’s South African, so he’s off to Montpellier! The prop is leaving the Lions.

Ben Franks: All Blacks prop who is joining London Irish.

Taqele Naiyaravoro: The Fijian Test wing is moving from the Waratahs to Pro12 champions Glasgow.
My question for these boards is whether the damage which received wisdom dictates will inevitably be done to the SANZAR international set-ups because of this is overstated.

From my recollection, there is always a post-RWC exodus, this year exacerbated by the seemingly great pools of cash sloshing around in the Jeff, Pro12 and Top14 leagues.

The other question is whether the New Zealand, Australian and South African RFUs should accept that this is happening and tailor selection policies around this exodus or whether the converse should be true and now is the time to draw a line in the sand to encourage younger stars to stay.

Is this good for the sport generally or not?

Really don't know where I come down on this so would be grateful for views.

Please, please can we not get into a highly pitched hissy about project players or national team selections based on foreign signings on this thread, mind you? There are dozens of others here for people to pollute with their respective brain droppings about that.
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Post by marty2086 Wed 10 Jun 2015, 4:37 pm

Welshmushroom wrote:For the record I've always said the benefactor model wont work in rugby.  For starters because the majority of millionaires tend to invest into football not rugby.  So the pool of so called sugar daddy's isn't exactly massive.  Also with the odd exception even when you look at the amount they do put in over a long period in a lot of cases its actually quite insignificant.  Take the Blues for example with Pie man.  His accounts actually show most of his investments are in fact repayable loans.  Then when you consider how much he actually has put in since regionalism its not exactly big money either (around the 10 million mark).  

I'm not saying its a pittance but considering regions have been going since 2003 that's less than 850K per year investment (and don't forget he gets a awful lot of business advertising and perks from this).  Ironically the WRU fund the regions for a hell of a lot more than that annually.  In wales for example I've always said the next step should be for benefactors to be removed.  Benefactors can work but they need to be the type that do actually contribute significantly in funding and to be honest rugby isn't full of those types of Directors.

Even in France we are only talking about 4 or 5 clubs who have any real financial clout.  I'm sure that will change in the coming years in France but currently there is an actual limit to how many players these clubs can actually sign.  So the supply and demand chain is very limited, which currently is shown by the massive amount of free agent players in June who still have clubs to find for next season.  


The smaller clubs in France can still pay more than a lot of top clubs in England and the Pro12 due to the tv deals the Top14 has in place and a salary cap of 10million. Pau coming up from ProD2 can afford to bring in Slade and Conrad Smith.

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Post by Fanster Wed 10 Jun 2015, 5:16 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Fanster wrote: There are plenty of 'profitable' clubs in the NH in recent years who have turned out to be fudged or flat out lies.

Such as?

Off the top of my head Cardiff a few years ago posted a profit, allbeit tiny, after the move to the football stadium? I know friends of mine were extremely doubtfull and it was found that Thomas had accounted for loans from himself that were'nt due for repayment straight away.

Or something of that of that ilk. There have been question marks over Toulouse in tha past also.

As Mushroom says if there is a way around the salary cap, or NFQ player limits Boudjallel will and has done anything he needs to to pick that particular lock.

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Post by HammerofThunor Wed 10 Jun 2015, 8:50 pm

So some vague claims about Blues (of which I can find anything about), and vague claims about Toulouse (again, can't find any reference). There was another poster on here who had 'friends' who would pass on information. Turned out to be a cowpat merchant.

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Post by Fanster Wed 10 Jun 2015, 10:18 pm

As i have stated a number of times I am literally working off what I've been told and read, aren't we all just giving opinions based on hearsay and rumour?

Can anyone definitively win an argument with facts?

Instead of maybe trying to go after me, give your opinion on my opinions, of which I don't beleive that Toulon are acing under the salary cap, have actually made a genuine profit this year, or are financially sustainable long term.


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Post by whocares Wed 10 Jun 2015, 10:42 pm

Fanster wrote:As i have stated a number of times I am literally working off what I've been told and read, aren't we all just giving opinions based on hearsay and rumour?

Can anyone definitively win an argument with facts?

Instead of maybe trying to go after me, give your opinion on my opinions, of which I don't beleive that Toulon are acing under the salary cap, have actually made a genuine profit this year, or are financially sustainable long term.


Unlike you I discuss facts as opposed to opinions based on hear-say.
Fact number 1: official financial reports of the top 14 as audited by the DNACG who acts as a financial watchdog and make sure clubs are not heavily in debt (something you might not have in more liberal countries such as UK)
http://www.lnr.fr/IMG/pdf/zRapportDNACG_2015-WEB_20150414.pdf
Page 33 : Brive and Toulon are the only teams that show a positive result at the end of 2013/2014 season. T

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Post by LondonTiger Wed 10 Jun 2015, 10:49 pm

It should be remembered that DNACG have relegated teams that operated too large a deficit, and refused permission to recruit players to some clubs too.

Some AP clubs operate at massive annual losses. That would not be allowed in France, where the rich owners would have to actually give the money to clubs in the form os sponsorship or other income rather than loans.


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Post by Fanster Wed 10 Jun 2015, 10:52 pm

And the claims that someone made above that Boudj has found ways to legally fund player wage etc through other corporations making contributions? and has publically flaunted it?

What about the way he bypasses the French qualified player rules?

Your fact is an auditer of significance, why is this different to hearsay? When someone comes to your house do you not clean? Is it then a fact that your house is clean? OR is it more of a fact that your house was clean on a specific time, in the opinion of a specific person, who you do not know personally, and havn't spoken to directly, who has a differing agenda to you, meanwhile as a hoseowner you are trying to convince the word your house is a clean house...

Facts were that Lance Armstrong was a champion at one point...

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Post by Fanster Wed 10 Jun 2015, 10:53 pm

LondonTiger wrote:It should be remembered that DNACG have relegated teams that operated too large a deficit, and refused permission to recruit players to some clubs too.

Some AP clubs operate at massive annual losses. That would not be allowed in France, where the rich owners would have to actually give the money to clubs in the form os sponsorship or other income rather than loans.


But doesn't this just prove the point that if there are serious ramifications for running beyond your means you will try harder to prove you are running within your means?

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Post by whocares Wed 10 Jun 2015, 10:56 pm

Thanks for being more precise than me LT.
Regarding Toulon it has to be noted that they operate under a high risk business model i.e. would they fail to make the playoffs or even host a QF in the RCC they would be in trouble. So yes the question of sustainability and robustness is quite valid but so far it works. toulon only assets are their players and they know better than anyone how to maximise revenue out of them. Regarding the salary cap Mourad Boujellal half admitted that they are using a slightly different interpretation than the mainstream one...

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Post by whocares Wed 10 Jun 2015, 11:04 pm

Fanster wrote:
Your fact is an auditer of significance, why is this different to hearsay? When someone comes to your house do you not clean? Is it then a fact that your house is clean? OR is it more of a fact that your house was clean on a specific time, in the opinion of a specific person, who you do not know personally, and havn't spoken to directly, who has a differing agenda to you, meanwhile as a hoseowner you are trying to convince the word your house is a clean house..

haha you are either hopeless or a big wum merchant. Sorry but no point discussing anything with you if you come up with nonsense like that.

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Post by HammerofThunor Thu 11 Jun 2015, 7:56 am

Personally, when I go round someone's house and it's tidy I think "I bet this place is usually filthy, the dirty bastards." After I tell a mate about how dirty it (probably) is I expect a good discussion with him. For some reason he keeps telling me to STFU.

For me, if someone says something completely reasonable that can be backed up, then I tend to accept they're probably right (only probably). If someone says something a bit more unlikely I'll make a judgement on the source. If it's someone who has a history of posting information (that turns out to be right) and has a legitimate inside track (e.g. LT with the Tigers) then I'm more likely to accept it. If it's someone I don't know, or has a dodgy posting history then I usually call cowpat or expect some sort of corroboration.

But that's just me. Don't worry, there are loads of guys on here who jump on anything so there will be plenty of discussion.

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Post by LondonTiger Thu 11 Jun 2015, 8:16 am

Mourad is perfectly open about how they ensure players get the "salary that they deserve" and stay within the salary cap. The rules about the salary cap are different in France to England, why should they have to be the same?

So JW had his clothing line. Dan Carter will receive 500k as direct salary and the remainder will be payments for image rights. In england this would be breaking the rules, in France it is not. Any expense by the club will still have to be auditable however - and would be problematic if it measn that a club breaks the affordability rules.

Most criminology studies indicate that people tend not to consider the sanction when committing a crime. If planned, they simply believe they will not be caught. The actions of DNACG would suggest that they have a pretty good record of catching people.


The DNACG audits are more than hearsay, or rumour mongering. theyt are a legally enforceable process with serious sanctions. Rumours and conspiracy - well they are like mana to the conspiracy theorist.

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Post by George Carlin Thu 11 Jun 2015, 9:44 am

HammerofThunor wrote:Personally, when I go round someone's house and it's tidy I think "I bet this place is usually filthy, the dirty bastards." After I tell a mate about how dirty it (probably) is I expect a good discussion with him. For some reason he keeps telling me to STFU.

For me, if someone says something completely reasonable that can be backed up, then I tend to accept they're probably right (only probably). If someone says something a bit more unlikely I'll make a judgement on the source. If it's someone who has a history of posting information (that turns out to be right) and has a legitimate inside track (e.g. LT with the Tigers) then I'm more likely to accept it. If it's someone I don't know, or has a dodgy posting history then I usually call cowpat or expect some sort of corroboration.

But that's just me. Don't worry, there are loads of guys on here who jump on anything so there will be plenty of discussion.
What do you mean by that? Eh? Eh? (etc)
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Post by HammerofThunor Thu 11 Jun 2015, 9:48 am

Smile

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Post by Sin é Sun 14 Jun 2015, 3:30 pm

You can get a Saracens season ticket for as little as about £120 on Groupon.

What is their business model?

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