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Is it time for the regions to start answering questions ?

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Luckless Pedestrian
Welsh Magician
No 7&1/2
Welshmushroom
Chunky Norwich
GavinDragon
Cardiff Dave
Hazel Sapling
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LordDowlais
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Post by LordDowlais Wed 17 Jun 2015, 2:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

Well, we all know what we are like in Wales, what with our in fighting and the what not, over the last few years the WRU have been scrutinised and put under the microscope by us, the Welsh premiership has been scrutinised and it is looking like it is being changed, the only other part of Welsh rugby that has not yet been scrutinised and put under the microscope are the regions.

Now that the regions have negotiated a better deal with the WRU and we now have dual contracts and more money for the regions, for me I think it is inevitable that now the other members of the WRU are going to start to ask questions if the performances of the regions do not improve, the regions cannot in my opinion be allowed to remain in the status quo without answering any questions if their performances do not improve, I think it is now time for the regions to start shouldering a little more responsibility and be made to answer if performances do not start showing signs of improvement, we need to start looking at getting all four teams in the top six of the league now, and in future we should start seeing better performances in Europe, this is why the regions rightfully negotiated a better deal from the WRU.

They won the war a few months ago, now they must perform to show what they have fought for and won was the right thing to do, they must show an improvement or they should come under the microscope just as the WRU has, and the lower level rugby has.

Does anybody else agree with this ? Or do you think that the regions should be allowed to keep the status quo they are currently enjoying ?

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 22 Jun 2015, 7:23 pm

The strangest thing about this thread is that the OP seems to think that the regions are happy with how they're doing, and that they aren't trying to climb the Pro12 table. Why he would think that is beyond me.

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Post by Cardiff Dave Mon 22 Jun 2015, 7:38 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The strangest thing about this thread is that the OP seems to think that the regions are happy with how they're doing, and that they aren't trying to climb the Pro12 table. Why he would think that is beyond me.

Qualifying for the HEC was the priority down our way. In other words finishing above Newport GD.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 22 Jun 2015, 7:45 pm

That used to be enough for you to qualify.

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Post by Cardiff Dave Mon 22 Jun 2015, 7:57 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:That used to be enough for you to qualify.

Aye and then a "rugby decision" was made down our way.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 23 Jun 2015, 9:37 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:Indeed. Ireland have got them. Wales hasn't. Yet some people think the pro teams in Wales should be able to compete with them on a regular basis. Very, very odd.

Well I must have imagined last season when the Ospreys beat Munster home and away, and thrashed Ulster, Edinburgh and beat Glasgow in Swansea, very, very odd indeed.

If some of the regions finish 10th and 9th next season, or just scrape into Europe on the last day, then who will be to blame ? The WRU again ?

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue 23 Jun 2015, 9:55 am

LordDowlais wrote:

Well I must have imagined last season when the Ospreys beat Munster home and away, and thrashed Ulster, Edinburgh and beat Glasgow in Swansea, very, very odd indeed.

As I said, Ospreys outperformed their expectations. Surely everyone can see that they did excellently given their bidget / squad etc??

If some of the regions finish 10th and 9th next season, or just scrape into Europe on the last day, then who will be to blame ? The WRU again ?

Blame? Why must you blame someone? 9th and 10th is where they are in the pecking order. Anythign above that is a bonus.


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Post by LordDowlais Tue 23 Jun 2015, 10:07 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:As I said, Ospreys outperformed their expectations. Surely everyone can see that they did excellently given their bidget / squad etc??

So it can be done then. Also, the regions are having extra funding next season, so they should do better.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Blame? Why must you blame someone? 9th and 10th is where they are in the pecking order. Anythign above that is a bonus.

A side with the likes of Scott Williams, Liam Davies, Gareth Davies, Regan King, John Barclay, Ken Owen, Samson Lee, George Earl, should be doing a lot more than scapping into the top six on the last day. Also, as I said prior, the regions are getting extra funding next season, so they should show an improvement.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue 23 Jun 2015, 10:10 am

LordDowlais wrote:

So it can be done then. Also, the regions are having extra funding next season, so they should do better.

I've asked you about this before, but you didn't answer - what on field benefit will this "extra funding" see to the regions next season?

A side with the likes of Scott Williams, Liam Davies, Gareth Davies, Regan King, John Barclay, Ken Owen, Samson Lee, George Earl, should be doing a lot more than scapping into the top six on the last day

I could just quote you Leinster's players who came 5th. There's no point though, you seem one track minded that the regions should be placed better in the league. Which is totally unrealistic given their squads. Any fool can see this.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 23 Jun 2015, 10:15 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:I've asked you about this before, but you didn't answer - what on field benefit will this "extra funding" see to the regions next season?

I did answer, it's just you have chosen to ignore it, I listed some players that the regions are signing next season to bolster the squads. Anyway, what do you think the regions are going to spend the extra money on ?

There was a very public war going on in Welsh rugby this year, everybody associated with rugby union knew about it, the regions were making demands from the WRU. They won and got their way, if it keeps going jubblies up, are the regions going to keep going to war with the WRU, or are they going to admit that they need to get their houses in order as well ?

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 23 Jun 2015, 10:18 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:I could just quote you Leinster's players who came 5th. There's no point though, you seem one track minded that the regions should be placed better in the league. Which is totally unrealistic given their squads. Any fool can see this.

Leinster have their own issues, and if I were Irish, I would be making the exact same thread about the provinces, and why Leinster finished 5th, but one thing I would bet on, the Provinces and the fans would not be blaming the IRFU for their failings.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue 23 Jun 2015, 10:19 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:I could just quote you Leinster's players who came 5th. There's no point though, you seem one track minded that the regions should be placed better in the league. Which is totally unrealistic given their squads. Any fool can see this.

Leinster have their own issues, and if I were Irish, I would be making the exact same thread about the provinces, and why Leinster finished 5th, but one thing I would bet on, the Provinces and the fans would not be blaming the IRFU for their failings.

The only one bringing up the WRU on this thread is you for goodness sake.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 23 Jun 2015, 10:24 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:The only one bringing up the WRU on this thread is you for goodness sake.

That's because the regions went to war with them. In affect, they were blaming the WRU for not being able to compete with other teams, they could not afford to keep their best players and the what not, they have done this and won, there should be no excuses now.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 23 Jun 2015, 10:25 am

How much extra are they getting?

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue 23 Jun 2015, 10:26 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:The only one bringing up the WRU on this thread is you for goodness sake.

That's because the regions went to war with them. In affect, they were blaming the WRU for not being able to compete with other teams, they could not afford to keep their best players and the what not, they have done this and won, there should be no excuses now.

Yes, this was last year, and we should hopefully see a new, better WRU because of it.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue 23 Jun 2015, 10:27 am

LordDowlais wrote:

I did answer, it's just you have chosen to ignore it, I listed some players that the regions are signing next season to bolster the squads. Anyway, what do you think the regions are going to spend the extra money on ?

So you genuinely think that the players the regions have signed, have bolstered their squads to a degree that will enable them to outfight the Irish in the Pro12?

You think the Welsh have better squads than the Irish now?

Jesus
Christ
on
a
bike

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 23 Jun 2015, 10:29 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:How much extra are they getting?

Quite a bit, here have a read, it will make you think why there should not be improvements:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/60m-peace-deal-welsh-rugby-7685871

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 23 Jun 2015, 10:38 am

Interesting read, they do say don't expect it to improve overnight. It's important to get that long term planning right.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue 23 Jun 2015, 10:40 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Interesting read, they do say don't expect it to improve overnight. It's important to get that long term planning right.

Plus the legal costs of the war amounted to circa 300k for each region. Great use of valuable resources.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 23 Jun 2015, 11:45 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:You think the Welsh have better squads than the Irish now?

No. When have I ever said that ?

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue 23 Jun 2015, 11:53 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:You think the Welsh have better squads than the Irish now?

No. When have I ever said that ?

You said 3 of them should be in the top 6.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 23 Jun 2015, 11:55 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:You think the Welsh have better squads than the Irish now?

No. When have I ever said that ?

You said 3 of them should be in the top 6.

Yes, ospreys achieved it, so why cant others ?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 23 Jun 2015, 11:59 am

Their teams aren't as good?

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue 23 Jun 2015, 11:59 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:You think the Welsh have better squads than the Irish now?

No. When have I ever said that ?

You said 3 of them should be in the top 6.

Yes, ospreys achieved it, so why cant others ?

Because they havn't got as many good players.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 23 Jun 2015, 12:15 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:Because they havn't got as many good players.

Then surely that is the fault of the regions, and the people running them, stop spending money on crap squad fillers, Cardiff Blues are the worst for it, start producing better talent through the academies, and get better players into the region. If the regions are crap again next year, then it's their own fault, and questions should be answered.

If the regions were playing young Welsh talent and coming up short, then I would have sympathy, but not when they are employing sub standard NWQ players.

Anyway, when comparing 1st fifteens, I do not see much difference between Ospreys and Scarlets, Dragons have a lot of youngsters, but they need to start stepping up to the plate now, after two seasons exposed to Pro12 rugby, and Cardiff Blues need to stop signing crap players.

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Post by Guest Tue 23 Jun 2015, 12:19 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:Because they havn't got as many good players.

Then surely that is the fault of the regions, and the people running them, stop spending money on crap squad fillers, Cardiff Blues are the worst for it, start producing better talent through the academies, and get better players into the region. If the regions are crap again next year, then it's their own fault, and questions should be answered.

If the regions were playing young Welsh talent and coming up short, then I would have sympathy, but not when they are employing sub standard NWQ players.

Firstly, you're telling them they have to produce better players through the academies, but then you expect a quick fix and an improvement by next year? Wow.

Secondly, the Dragons are playing young Welsh talent, so why aren't you showing them more sympathy?

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue 23 Jun 2015, 12:21 pm

LordDowlais wrote:

Then surely that is the fault of the regions, and the people running them, stop spending money on crap squad fillers, Cardiff Blues are the worst for it, start producing better talent through the academies, and get better players into the region. If the regions are crap again next year, then it's their own fault, and questions should be answered.

.

My good fellow I'm not quite sure I agree with your theory on this matter. However, these are merely our opinions and I shall continue to show due respect as we debate the issues at hand.

Yours sincerely,

Chunkle of Naaaarwich


Last edited by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 23 Jun 2015, 3:27 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Don't be a rude little swine)

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 23 Jun 2015, 12:23 pm

Risca Rev wrote:Firstly, you're telling them they have to produce better players through the academies, but then you expect a quick fix and an improvement by next year? Wow.

Because they will have more money to bolster their squad next season, that is why I would like to see some improvements, if Ospreys can do this, why cant any other regions do it ?

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 23 Jun 2015, 12:23 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:You think the Welsh have better squads than the Irish now?

No. When have I ever said that ?

You said 3 of them should be in the top 6.

Yes, ospreys achieved it, so why cant others ?

Not only the Ospreys achieved it. The Scarlets did too.
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Post by Welsh Magician Tue 23 Jun 2015, 12:32 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:Because they havn't got as many good players.

Then surely that is the fault of the regions, and the people running them, stop spending money on crap squad fillers, Cardiff Blues are the worst for it, start producing better talent through the academies, and get better players into the region. If the regions are crap again next year, then it's their own fault, and questions should be answered.

If the regions were playing young Welsh talent and coming up short, then I would have sympathy, but not when they are employing sub standard NWQ players.

Anyway, when comparing 1st fifteens, I do not see much difference between Ospreys and Scarlets, Dragons have a lot of youngsters, but they need to start stepping up to the plate now, after two seasons exposed to Pro12 rugby, and Cardiff Blues need to stop signing crap players.
Just for fun, could you list exactly which place each of the 12 teams should come in the Pro12 next season, if all 4 of the Welsh teams should be in the top 6.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 23 Jun 2015, 12:35 pm

If the regions are run properly then there is no reason why Blues,Scarlets and Ospreys could not finish in the top six, I would like to see Dragons getting the playoff place.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 23 Jun 2015, 12:37 pm

LordDowlais wrote:If the regions were playing young Welsh talent and coming up short, then I would have sympathy, but not when they are employing sub standard NWQ players.

Apart from Landman, Harris and Crosswell - who clearly aren't sub-standard - the Dragons' XVs this season was more or less all young Welsh talent.


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Post by Fanster Tue 23 Jun 2015, 12:37 pm

Forgive me if i'm wrong but weren't the fans told to give the regions 10 years to bed in to allow for european success?

I don't see how the regional system has done anything other than corrall all the player base in Wales into 4 academy programs, and then allow the very best to leave willy nilly.

It was nice when 4 regional squads were full of Welsh internationals, there seemed to be a huge amount of high level player around those internationals without being internationals themselves, but now these supporting players seem to be the 'top talent' at the clubs, so where has the rest of the talent gone?

Look at the Robinsons from Cardiff, allowed to leave despite being very good club players, and replaced with the likes of Evans, Sam Norton Knight and Dan Parks, a conveyer belt of dross earning big!

Cardiff finally develop a 10 worthy of the show and their first instinct is to shift him to FB or 12 for an untested kiwi on a central contract before his feet touched welsh soil.

I really wonder who is making the decisions at the regions, they simply try to sabotage their own chances!

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue 23 Jun 2015, 12:39 pm

Fanster wrote:Forgive me if i'm wrong but weren't the fans told to give the regions 10 years to bed in to allow for european success?

I don't see how the regional system has done anything other than corrall all the player base in Wales into 4 academy programs, and then allow the very best to leave willy nilly.

It was nice when 4 regional squads were full of Welsh internationals, there seemed to be a huge amount of high level player around those internationals without being internationals themselves, but now these supporting players seem to be the 'top talent' at the clubs, so where has the rest of the talent gone?

Look at the Robinsons from Cardiff, allowed to leave despite being very good club players, and replaced with the likes of Evans, Sam Norton Knight and Dan Parks, a conveyer belt of dross earning big!

Cardiff finally develop a 10 worthy of the show and their first instinct is to shift him to FB or 12 for an untested kiwi on a central contract before his feet touched welsh soil.

I really wonder who is making the decisions at the regions, they simply try to sabotage their own chances!

Yes. And to think that the regions were told by the CEO of the WRU that this model should continue for another 5 years.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 23 Jun 2015, 12:46 pm

Fanster wrote:Forgive me if i'm wrong but weren't the fans told to give the regions 10 years to bed in to allow for european success?

I don't see how the regional system has done anything other than corrall all the player base in Wales into 4 academy programs, and then allow the very best to leave willy nilly.

It was nice when 4 regional squads were full of Welsh internationals, there seemed to be a huge amount of high level player around those internationals without being internationals themselves, but now these supporting players seem to be the 'top talent' at the clubs, so where has the rest of the talent gone?

Look at the Robinsons from Cardiff, allowed to leave despite being very good club players, and replaced with the likes of Evans, Sam Norton Knight and Dan Parks, a conveyer belt of dross earning big!

Cardiff finally develop a 10 worthy of the show and their first instinct is to shift him to FB or 12 for an untested kiwi on a central contract before his feet touched welsh soil.

I really wonder who is making the decisions at the regions, they simply try to sabotage their own chances!

This.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 23 Jun 2015, 12:51 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:If the regions were playing young Welsh talent and coming up short, then I would have sympathy, but not when they are employing sub standard NWQ players.

Apart from Landman, Harris and Crosswell - who clearly aren't sub-standard - the Dragons' XVs this season was more or less all young Welsh talent.

Except for wasting money on Lee Byrne and Andy Powell. OK Lee Byrne still had something to offer, and we did not know he was broken, but Andy Powell, come on. Also Brok Harris, come on.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 23 Jun 2015, 12:52 pm

Who should they sign?

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 23 Jun 2015, 12:52 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:If the regions were playing young Welsh talent and coming up short, then I would have sympathy, but not when they are employing sub standard NWQ players.

Apart from Landman, Harris and Crosswell - who clearly aren't sub-standard - the Dragons' XVs this season was more or less all young Welsh talent.

Except for wasting money on Lee Byrne and Andy Powell. OK Lee Byrne still had something to offer, and we did not know he was broken, but Andy Powell, come on. Also Brok Harris, come on.

I'll let someone with more patience answer this. picard

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 23 Jun 2015, 12:54 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Who should they sign?

I don't know, but surely their scouts could do better than what they are doing. Cardiff Blues have just signed an American second rower, I hope he is decent, I have never heard of him, please do not tell me that their scouting network only goes as far as England.

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Post by Fanster Tue 23 Jun 2015, 12:57 pm

So my question would be..

Are the regions in control of what they do? Could for example Thomas at Cardiff decide he likes the Toulon model and go and sign world class talent from everywhere and have a field day (Well maybe more accurately he'd 'lend' Cardiff Blues the millions to do so at a nice attractive rate).

Or does the WRU have a big finger in the pie and try to manipulate what each region does?

My other question would be that where has all the clubmen type talent gone? Why is there suddenly gaps of a million miles between top players such as Falatau and then development players of the likes of Cudd etc... Why is there no in between.

I think the talent pool in Wales, from what i've seen as a slight outsider has become smaller, and fragile, the gap between premiership quality and regional quality has increased, but because of the prem being used as an academy player staging area other than a competition.

The odd Falatau will always come through, but the rest around them seem to be very below par, it's almost like Welsh regions don't care for anyone not showing international potential, then have to plug the gaps with mediocre foreign signings.

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Post by Welsh Magician Tue 23 Jun 2015, 12:57 pm

LordDowlais wrote:If the regions are run properly then there is no reason why Blues,Scarlets and Ospreys could not finish in the top six, I would like to see Dragons getting the playoff place.
But then wouldn't the Irish teams and/or Glasgow need to answer questions for finishing below teams with lower budgets than them?

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 23 Jun 2015, 12:57 pm

OK, I will give in on this, I suppose we are going to have to put up with excuses upon excuses every year until the next row between the regions and the WRU erupts. But until people on here face facts and see that our regions are not being run properly then they will never amount to anything. After all why should a I expect any improvements from our regions, the bloody cheek I have to even suggest it.

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Post by Guest Tue 23 Jun 2015, 12:59 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:If the regions were playing young Welsh talent and coming up short, then I would have sympathy, but not when they are employing sub standard NWQ players.

Apart from Landman, Harris and Crosswell - who clearly aren't sub-standard - the Dragons' XVs this season was more or less all young Welsh talent.

Except for wasting money on Lee Byrne and Andy Powell. OK Lee Byrne still had something to offer, and we did not know he was broken, but Andy Powell, come on. Also Brok Harris, come on.

Brok Harris has been a very good signing for us. That's ignorance at best on your part. Andy Powell started off very well for us actually, seeing as you're allowing Lee Byrne some leeway. Plus we only signed him on a year's contract, so it was hardly a waste of money.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 23 Jun 2015, 1:00 pm

Welsh Magician wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:If the regions are run properly then there is no reason why Blues,Scarlets and Ospreys could not finish in the top six, I would like to see Dragons getting the playoff place.
But then wouldn't the Irish teams and/or Glasgow need to answer questions for finishing below teams with lower budgets than them?

As I have said earlier on this thread, if I was Irish, I would already be questioning Leinsters performance last season, and if I was Scottish, I would be very peeved at the way Edinburgh go about their business, but I am Welsh, so I am only asking for improvement form OUR regions.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 23 Jun 2015, 1:01 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Who should they sign?

I don't know, but surely their scouts could do better than what they are doing. Cardiff Blues have just signed an American second rower, I hope he is decent, I have never heard of him, please do not tell me that their scouting network only goes as far as England.

Takes a fair bit of work to uncover a diamond though and they're not all going to work and a lot of money to get the top players. They're in competition with everyone else as well.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue 23 Jun 2015, 1:01 pm

LordDowlais wrote: I am Welsh, so I am only asking for improvement form OUR regions.

Whilst totally ignoring the rest of the rugby landcsape in the very competition you are basing your illogical statements on.

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Post by Guest Tue 23 Jun 2015, 1:03 pm

LordDowlais wrote:OK, I will give in on this, I suppose we are going to have to put up with excuses upon excuses every year until the next row between the regions and the WRU erupts. But until people on here face facts and see that our regions are not being run properly then they will never amount to anything. After all why should a I expect any improvements from our regions, the bloody cheek I have to even suggest it.

Just don't be so stubborn in your mindset, that's all. You aren't presenting any facts, you're ignoring the fact that we are competing against teams with higher budgets.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue 23 Jun 2015, 1:04 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Who should they sign?

I don't know, but surely their scouts could do better than what they are doing. Cardiff Blues have just signed an American second rower, I hope he is decent, I have never heard of him, please do not tell me that their scouting network only goes as far as England.

Takes a fair bit of work to uncover a diamond though and they're not all going to work and a lot of money to get the top players. They're in competition with everyone else as well.

He hasn't mentionedthe likes of Jake Ball. Plucked from relative obscurity, now on a dual contract at test level. Or Josh Matavesi. Or Rynier Bernardo.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 23 Jun 2015, 1:04 pm

Risca Rev wrote: Plus we only signed him on a year's contract, so it was hardly a waste of money.

You did not need him, thus he was a waste of money.

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Post by Don Alfonso Tue 23 Jun 2015, 1:05 pm

As an outsider - is rugby still genuinely the "national sport" of Wales?

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Post by Fanster Tue 23 Jun 2015, 1:06 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Who should they sign?

I don't know, but surely their scouts could do better than what they are doing. Cardiff Blues have just signed an American second rower, I hope he is decent, I have never heard of him, please do not tell me that their scouting network only goes as far as England.

Thats a very good question, there is a pecking order in european rugby at the minute, and it kind of feels like the Welsh regions are taking the scraps from the top table in desperation, the odd nugget like foalatau? (Ospreys 9) will always shine, butwhy would bigger clubs risk signing these players when they know they can just snap the best off the Welsh regions when they show quality?

It really is worrying when the likes of Adam Ashley Cooper and Slade will happily sign for a T14 newcomer, and the likes of Cardiff Blues and Ospreys couldn't muster a sniff. Now i'm not saying they stood a chance, but at least ask the question.

I can't remember the last time a region made a signing that made anyone take notice, an established international not from Wales. I think thats what they may need, if your going to sign NWQ, shell out and sign someone to put bums on seats and make the place feel optimistic again!

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