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Is it time for the regions to start answering questions ?

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Luckless Pedestrian
Welsh Magician
No 7&1/2
Welshmushroom
Chunky Norwich
GavinDragon
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Hazel Sapling
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LordDowlais
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Post by LordDowlais Wed 17 Jun 2015, 2:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

Well, we all know what we are like in Wales, what with our in fighting and the what not, over the last few years the WRU have been scrutinised and put under the microscope by us, the Welsh premiership has been scrutinised and it is looking like it is being changed, the only other part of Welsh rugby that has not yet been scrutinised and put under the microscope are the regions.

Now that the regions have negotiated a better deal with the WRU and we now have dual contracts and more money for the regions, for me I think it is inevitable that now the other members of the WRU are going to start to ask questions if the performances of the regions do not improve, the regions cannot in my opinion be allowed to remain in the status quo without answering any questions if their performances do not improve, I think it is now time for the regions to start shouldering a little more responsibility and be made to answer if performances do not start showing signs of improvement, we need to start looking at getting all four teams in the top six of the league now, and in future we should start seeing better performances in Europe, this is why the regions rightfully negotiated a better deal from the WRU.

They won the war a few months ago, now they must perform to show what they have fought for and won was the right thing to do, they must show an improvement or they should come under the microscope just as the WRU has, and the lower level rugby has.

Does anybody else agree with this ? Or do you think that the regions should be allowed to keep the status quo they are currently enjoying ?

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 24 Jun 2015, 10:13 am

LordDowlais wrote:Well the regions are getting what they wanted now

Not quite. They still have no control over their main business income (the competition negotiation, the tv deal negotiations etc), at least when it coems to the league. For this to have such a bearing on private businesses really does beggar belief. This is the main difference between PRL and RRW. One has a huge advantage of beign able to conduct it's own business. The scotttish and irish teams don't have this disadvantage that the welsh have, because they are largely controlled by their Unions, so they know that they will be looked out for at every stage of the proceedings. This hasn't been the case in Wales, where the independent busiensses are spoken for by Unions of other countries!!! A farce of a scenario.

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Post by Guest Wed 24 Jun 2015, 10:33 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Well the regions are getting what they wanted now

Not quite. They still have no control over their main business income (the competition negotiation, the tv deal negotiations etc), at least when it coems to the league. For this to have such a bearing on private businesses really does beggar belief. This is the main difference between PRL and RRW. One has a huge advantage of beign able to conduct it's own business. The scotttish and irish teams don't have this disadvantage that the welsh have, because they are largely controlled by their Unions, so they know that they will be looked out for at every stage of the proceedings. This hasn't been the case in Wales, where the independent busiensses are spoken for by Unions of other countries!!! A farce of a scenario.

Are they? Who negotiates the broadcasting deals for the Regions? I know it isn't the Regions themselves, but it isn't other Unions, outside of WRU, that negotiate on their behalf either. The Regions get a very good broadcasting deal. Why would you want it changed?

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 24 Jun 2015, 11:17 am

Fanster wrote:The ideal set up in my opinion would have been for 4 regions south and 1 North...

Llanelli - Swansea Ospreys

Neath - Bridgend Blues

Ponty - Cardiff west Warriors

Newport - Cardiff East Dragons

That would definitely work. I can hear the singing now: "Stand up for the men of Cardiff East..."

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Post by munkian Wed 24 Jun 2015, 11:18 am

Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Well the regions are getting what they wanted now

Not quite. They still have no control over their main business income (the competition negotiation, the tv deal negotiations etc), at least when it coems to the league. For this to have such a bearing on private businesses really does beggar belief. This is the main difference between PRL and RRW. One has a huge advantage of beign able to conduct it's own business. The scotttish and irish teams don't have this disadvantage that the welsh have, because they are largely controlled by their Unions, so they know that they will be looked out for at every stage of the proceedings. This hasn't been the case in Wales, where the independent busiensses are spoken for by Unions of other countries!!! A farce of a scenario.

Are they? Who negotiates the broadcasting deals for the Regions? I know it isn't the Regions themselves, but it isn't other Unions, outside of WRU, that negotiate on their behalf either. The Regions get a very good broadcasting deal. Why would you want it changed?

Wales does yes, but the other nation's deals are poor and we have to share with them...
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Post by Guest Wed 24 Jun 2015, 11:21 am

munkian wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Well the regions are getting what they wanted now

Not quite. They still have no control over their main business income (the competition negotiation, the tv deal negotiations etc), at least when it coems to the league. For this to have such a bearing on private businesses really does beggar belief. This is the main difference between PRL and RRW. One has a huge advantage of beign able to conduct it's own business. The scotttish and irish teams don't have this disadvantage that the welsh have, because they are largely controlled by their Unions, so they know that they will be looked out for at every stage of the proceedings. This hasn't been the case in Wales, where the independent busiensses are spoken for by Unions of other countries!!! A farce of a scenario.

Are they? Who negotiates the broadcasting deals for the Regions? I know it isn't the Regions themselves, but it isn't other Unions, outside of WRU, that negotiate on their behalf either. The Regions get a very good broadcasting deal. Why would you want it changed?

Wales does yes, but the other nation's deals are poor and we have to share with them...

Yes, the other nations deals are poor. Not so sure you have to share them though. At least not by as much as has been claimed by some Welsh fans. I have a feeling that although the Regions may not get the full amount of their broadcasting deal they do get a sizeable chunk of it.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 24 Jun 2015, 11:21 am

Munchkin wrote:

Are they? Who negotiates the broadcasting deals for the Regions? I know it isn't the Regions themselves, but it isn't other Unions, outside of WRU, that negotiate on their behalf either. The Regions get a very good broadcasting deal. Why would you want it changed?

Yes they are. 4 Unions sit round a table and hammer out a plan that is best for those 4 unions. They don't hammer out a plan that is best for some independent business that happen to be a part of it.

The regions get a deal that is negotiated for them by other organisations. Those organisations are dead set on a rugby model that is the opposite to the model that the regions believe in. It's bonkers.

Why would I want it changed? Seriously? Why would I want an independent business to be in control of increasong it's own income? I'm sure I don't have to answer that.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 24 Jun 2015, 11:24 am

My understanding is that the regions participate in negotiations over the European cups, but have no say in negotiations over the Pro12.

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Post by Guest Wed 24 Jun 2015, 11:30 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Are they? Who negotiates the broadcasting deals for the Regions? I know it isn't the Regions themselves, but it isn't other Unions, outside of WRU, that negotiate on their behalf either. The Regions get a very good broadcasting deal. Why would you want it changed?

Yes they are. 4 Unions sit round a table and hammer out a plan that is best for those 4 unions. They don't hammer out a plan that is best for some independent business that happen to be a part of it.

The regions get a deal that is negotiated for them by other organisations. Those organisations are dead set on a rugby model that is the opposite to the model that the regions believe in. It's bonkers.

Why would I want it changed? Seriously? Why would I want an independent business to be in control of increasong it's own income? I'm sure I don't have to answer that.

The four Unions sit around a table and plan what's best for those four Unions? At the very least I would think that each of the Provinces/Regions/Clubs representatives would search for what's best for PRO12, and what's best for their Provinces/Regions/Clubs in it.

The Regions get a deal that is hammered out for them by their Welsh representatives PRO12 directors.

These Welsh directors are set on a rugby model that is opposite to the Regions model/model Regions believe in? How so? What are these two opposing models?

I would like you to answer why you want it changed? It isn't as if the Regions don't get a great broadcasting deal. Could they really do any better?


Last edited by Munchkin on Wed 24 Jun 2015, 11:34 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Guest Wed 24 Jun 2015, 11:33 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:My understanding is that the regions participate in negotiations over the European cups, but have no say in negotiations over the Pro12.

I would think that at the very least their PRO12 directors would work with the Regions during any PRO12 negotiations. It isn't as if the Regions have a real issue with their PRO12 rep's. They don't have power in these negotiations, but that doesn't have to be an issue. None of the clubs do.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 24 Jun 2015, 11:36 am

Munchkin wrote:

These Welsh directors are set on a rugby model that is opposite to the Regions model/model Regions believe in? How so? What are these two opposing models?

Welsh directors? No idea what you mean. I'm talkign about the majority of the pro12 representatives. They are all Union bods, therefore are likely to agree on changes that favour the Unions and the Union owned sides. Any appeal for changes that favours the independent sides would be laughed out of town. That's why the independently owned team don't fit in a Union run league.

The two are complete opposites and do not mix in the same league competition.

I would like you to answer why you want it changed? It isn't as if the Regions don't get a great broadcasting deal. Could they really do any better?

Every busienss in the world is in charge of it's own business decisions. Apart from the Welsh regions it seems. Who don't get to choose tv deals, competitin deals etc I'd liek this changed so they can get more chances to earn more money to buy better players. I really cannot believe I just had to spell that out.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 24 Jun 2015, 11:37 am

Munchkin wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:My understanding is that the regions participate in negotiations over the European cups, but have no say in negotiations over the Pro12.

I would think that at the very least their PRO12 directors would work with the Regions during any PRO12 negotiations. It isn't as if the Regions have a real issue with their PRO12 rep's. They don't have power in these negotiations, but that doesn't have to be an issue. None of the clubs do.

Of course it's an issue. Because their business model is completely different from every other team in the league.

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Post by Guest Wed 24 Jun 2015, 11:52 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

These Welsh directors are set on a rugby model that is opposite to the Regions model/model Regions believe in? How so? What are these two opposing models?

Welsh directors? No idea what you mean. I'm talkign about the majority of the pro12 representatives. They are all Union bods, therefore are likely to agree on changes that favour the Unions and the Union owned sides. Any appeal for changes that favours the independent sides would be laughed out of town. That's why the independently owned team don't fit in a Union run league.

The two are complete opposites and do not mix in the same league competition.

I would like you to answer why you want it changed? It isn't as if the Regions don't get a great broadcasting deal. Could they really do any better?

Every busienss in the world is in charge of it's own business decisions. Apart from the Welsh regions it seems. Who don't get to choose tv deals, competitin deals etc I'd liek this changed so they can get more chances to earn more money to buy better players. I really cannot believe I just had to spell that out.

Welsh directors as in the Regions PRO12 rep's are directors on the PRO12 board of directors and happen to be Welsh.

"They are all Union bods, therefore are likely to agree on changes that favour the Unions and the Union owned sides."

The PRO12 board of directors will do what's best for the PRO12 and those clubs each represents. Sorry Chunky, but your claim really doesn't make any sense whatsoever. If there was even a hint of truth in it I'm certain that the Regions owners would have been up in arms long before now and would have been very public about it.

"Any appeal for changes that favours the independent sides would be laughed out of town. That's why the independently owned team don't fit in a Union run league."

Any change should not favour any nations teams. Demonstrate that the Regions don't fit? It isn't that PRO12 is a poor fit for the Regions. It is that the Regions have been very poorly run, although WRU have played their part in that.

"The two are complete opposites and do not mix in the same league competition"

You wish. That simply isn't true.

"Every busienss in the world is in charge of it's own business decisions. Apart from the Welsh regions it seems. Who don't get to choose tv deals, competitin deals etc I'd liek this changed so they can get more chances to earn more money to buy better players. I really cannot believe I just had to spell that out.[/quote]"

You really would need to spell it out. The Regions get a great deal. Do you think the Regions could negotiate a better deal? I will answer for you: Not a chance.

P.s Every business in the world is not in charge of its own business decisions. Not even close to being true.



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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 24 Jun 2015, 12:02 pm

Munchkin wrote:

Welsh directors as in the Regions PRO12 rep's are directors on the PRO12 board of directors and happen to be Welsh.

"They are all Union bods, therefore are likely to agree on changes that favour the Unions and the Union owned sides."

The PRO12 board of directors will do what's best for the PRO12 and those clubs each represents. Sorry Chunky, but your claim really doesn't make any sense whatsoever. If there was even a hint of truth in it I'm certain that the Regions owners would have been up in arms long before now and would have been very public about it.

"Any appeal for changes that favours the independent sides would be laughed out of town. That's why the independently owned team don't fit in a Union run league."

Any change should not favour any nations teams. Demonstrate that the Regions don't fit? It isn't that PRO12 is a poor fit for the Regions. It is that the Regions have been very poorly run, although WRU have played their part in that.

"The two are complete opposites and do not mix in the same league competition"

You wish. That simply isn't true.

"Every busienss in the world is in charge of it's own business decisions. Apart from the Welsh regions it seems. Who don't get to choose tv deals, competitin deals etc I'd liek this changed so they can get more chances to earn more money to buy better players. I really cannot believe I just had to spell that out.
"

You really would need to spell it out. The Regions get a great deal. Do you think the Regions could negotiate a better deal? I will answer for you: Not a chance.

P.s Every business in the world is not in charge of its own business decisions. Not even close to being true.


http://prorugbywales.com/q-a/

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Post by Guest Wed 24 Jun 2015, 12:04 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:My understanding is that the regions participate in negotiations over the European cups, but have no say in negotiations over the Pro12.

I would think that at the very least their PRO12 directors would work with the Regions during any PRO12 negotiations. It isn't as if the Regions have a real issue with their PRO12 rep's. They don't have power in these negotiations, but that doesn't have to be an issue. None of the clubs do.

Of course it's an issue. Because their business model is completely different from every other team in the league.

Not both of the Italian teams are Union owned. Dragons are part Union owned. Demonstrate that not being wholly Union owned is a disadvantage for those Regions?

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 24 Jun 2015, 12:08 pm

Dragons are signatiries to RRW. Read the RRW article I posted. It is all there - the article demosntarte that the regions feel the same way. It's not something I've just made up. The pro12 is incompatible.

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Post by Guest Wed 24 Jun 2015, 12:10 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Welsh directors as in the Regions PRO12 rep's are directors on the PRO12 board of directors and happen to be Welsh.

"They are all Union bods, therefore are likely to agree on changes that favour the Unions and the Union owned sides."

The PRO12 board of directors will do what's best for the PRO12 and those clubs each represents. Sorry Chunky, but your claim really doesn't make any sense whatsoever. If there was even a hint of truth in it I'm certain that the Regions owners would have been up in arms long before now and would have been very public about it.

"Any appeal for changes that favours the independent sides would be laughed out of town. That's why the independently owned team don't fit in a Union run league."

Any change should not favour any nations teams. Demonstrate that the Regions don't fit? It isn't that PRO12 is a poor fit for the Regions. It is that the Regions have been very poorly run, although WRU have played their part in that.

"The two are complete opposites and do not mix in the same league competition"

You wish. That simply isn't true.

"Every busienss in the world is in charge of it's own business decisions. Apart from the Welsh regions it seems. Who don't get to choose tv deals, competitin deals etc I'd liek this changed so they can get more chances to earn more money to buy better players. I really cannot believe I just had to spell that out.
"

You really would need to spell it out. The Regions get a great deal. Do you think the Regions could negotiate a better deal? I will answer for you: Not a chance.

P.s Every business in the world is not in charge of its own business decisions. Not even close to being true.


http://prorugbywales.com/q-a/

I'm not going to read it all. Was there a particular point? This bit was interesting:

"RRW presents the views and opinions of its member regions to governing bodies and tournament administrators, ensuring the views and concerns of the Regions are heard at the highest level, with a view to assisting the four achieve long-term sustainability on and of the field."

So at the very least the Regions have a voice in any negotiations.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 24 Jun 2015, 12:12 pm

Munchkin wrote:"RRW presents the views and opinions of its member regions to governing bodies and tournament administrators, ensuring the views and concerns of the Regions are heard at the highest level, with a view to assisting the four achieve long-term sustainability on and of the field."

So at the very least the Regions have a voice in any negotiations.

That's very different from having a seat at the table.

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Post by Guest Wed 24 Jun 2015, 12:13 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:Dragons are signatiries to RRW. Read the RRW article I posted. It is all there - the article demosntarte that the regions feel the same way. It's not something I've just made up. The pro12 is incompatible.

I think you're projecting into what has been said. This article was written during their spat with WRU, and if anything it shows that the Regions want to stay within PRO12. A fact that has been further reinforced in a Regions statement recently....

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 24 Jun 2015, 12:13 pm

Munchkin wrote:

I'm not going to read it all.

Then your opinions on the matter won't have much credibility.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 24 Jun 2015, 12:15 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:Dragons are signatiries to RRW. Read the RRW article I posted. It is all there - the article demosntarte that the regions feel the same way. It's not something I've just made up. The pro12 is incompatible.

I think you're projecting into what has been said. This article was written during their spat with WRU, and if anything it shows that the Regions want to stay within PRO12. A fact that has been further reinforced in a Regions statement recently....

They've always stated that they want to remain in the Pro12. To publicly suggest otherwise would be irresponsible and tantamount to disrepute. While some of the WRU matters are resolved, The matter in discusson (pro12, Celtic accord, etc) remains the same.


Last edited by Chunky Norwich on Wed 24 Jun 2015, 12:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Guest Wed 24 Jun 2015, 12:16 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Munchkin wrote:"RRW presents the views and opinions of its member regions to governing bodies and tournament administrators, ensuring the views and concerns of the Regions are heard at the highest level, with a view to assisting the four achieve long-term sustainability on and of the field."

So at the very least the Regions have a voice in any negotiations.

That's very different from having a seat at the table.

It is, but then none of the clubs do. Do the Regions actually want a seat at the table? I mean it isn't that any have voiced any opinion opposed to the current structure. And they do have a voice.

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Post by Guest Wed 24 Jun 2015, 12:18 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

I'm not going to read it all.  

Then your opinions on the matter won't have much credibility.

It isn't something I haven't read before. I just don't know the point of you posting it. Was there a point or did you just post it becuase you like posting things?

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 24 Jun 2015, 12:20 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

I'm not going to read it all.  

Then your opinions on the matter won't have much credibility.

It isn't something I haven't read before. I just don't know the point of you posting it. Was there a point or did you just post it becuase you like posting things?

Yes, the point is my opinions are reinforced by the regions.

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Post by Guest Wed 24 Jun 2015, 12:20 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:Dragons are signatiries to RRW. Read the RRW article I posted. It is all there - the article demosntarte that the regions feel the same way. It's not something I've just made up. The pro12 is incompatible.

I think you're projecting into what has been said. This article was written during their spat with WRU, and if anything it shows that the Regions want to stay within PRO12. A fact that has been further reinforced in a Regions statement recently....

They've always stated that they want to remain in the Pro12. To publicly suggest otherwise would be irresponsible and tantamount to disrepute. While some of the WRU matters are resolved, The matter in discusson (pro12, Celtic accord, etc) remains the same.

They don't have to state that they want to remain within PRO12. It's nothing to do with 'disrepute'. It's everything to do with the fact that they want to remain within PRO12.


Last edited by Munchkin on Wed 24 Jun 2015, 12:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Guest Wed 24 Jun 2015, 12:22 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

I'm not going to read it all.  

Then your opinions on the matter won't have much credibility.

It isn't something I haven't read before. I just don't know the point of you posting it. Was there a point or did you just post it becuase you like posting things?

Yes, the point is my opinions are reinforced by the regions.

But they aren't. You're projecting. Show me anywhere the Regions clearly state that they want out of PRO12?

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 24 Jun 2015, 12:24 pm

Munchkin wrote:

But they aren't. You're projecting. Show me anywhere the Regions clearly state that they want out of PRO12?

??? I didn't say the regions wanted out of the pro12.

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Post by Guest Wed 24 Jun 2015, 12:26 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

But they aren't. You're projecting. Show me anywhere the Regions clearly state that they want out of PRO12?

??? I didn't say the regions wanted out of the pro12.

Ok, so you think PRO12 is a bad fit for the Regions. You think what the Regions say support your views. The Regions want to remain in PRO12.

I'm sure you can see the contradiction here, Chunky....

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 24 Jun 2015, 12:28 pm

Munchkin wrote:

Ok, so you think PRO12 is a bad fit for the Regions. You think what the Regions say support your views. They Regions want to remain in PRO12.

I'm sure you can see the contradiction here, Chunky....

ok. If you genuinely get that from the article I posted, and take nothing else on board I guess there's not much else to dicsucss.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 24 Jun 2015, 12:31 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

But they aren't. You're projecting. Show me anywhere the Regions clearly state that they want out of PRO12?

??? I didn't say the regions wanted out of the pro12.

Ok, so you think PRO12 is a bad fit for the Regions. You think what the Regions say support your views. The Regions want to remain in PRO12.

I'm sure you can see the contradiction here, Chunky....

You pick 1 tiny detail and your conclusions remind me of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCFB2akLh4s

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Post by Guest Wed 24 Jun 2015, 12:35 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Ok, so you think PRO12 is a bad fit for the Regions. You think what the Regions say support your views. They Regions want to remain in PRO12.

I'm sure you can see the contradiction here, Chunky....

ok. If you genuinely get that from the article I posted, and take nothing else on board I guess there's not much else to dicsucss.

So are you now saying that the Regions want out of PRO12? There is contradiction in what you are saying. It's me that is dealing with the facts here;

- You say PRO12 is a poor fit for the Regions.

- That article explains the Regions position (at the time of negotiating with WRU), and that position was that although they were considering alternatives to the PRO12, it was a position they felt forced upon them and that in fact they wanted to remain in PRO12.

- Conclusion: If the Regions do not, and have never, wanted to exit PRO12, the Regions do not agree with your claim that the PRO12 is a poor fit for them. That as a model it is contrary to their ideal.


Last edited by Munchkin on Wed 24 Jun 2015, 12:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Guest Wed 24 Jun 2015, 12:37 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

But they aren't. You're projecting. Show me anywhere the Regions clearly state that they want out of PRO12?

??? I didn't say the regions wanted out of the pro12.

Ok, so you think PRO12 is a bad fit for the Regions. You think what the Regions say support your views. The Regions want to remain in PRO12.

I'm sure you can see the contradiction here, Chunky....

You pick 1 tiny detail and your conclusions remind me of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCFB2akLh4s

I'm not going to bother viewing the link. It isn't a tiny detail. It's huge within the context of this discussion. You have never explained any detail of that article in support of your claims. At least I highlight something as opposed to your nothing...

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 24 Jun 2015, 12:39 pm

Munchkin wrote:

So are you now saying that the Regions want out of PRO12? There is contradiction in what you are saying.

I would assume given the chocie of another competition they'd choose the other competition yes.


- You say PRO12 is a poor fit for the Regions.

- That article explains the Regions position (at the time of negotiating with WRU), and that position was that although they were considering alternatives to the PRO12, it was a position they felt forced upon them and that in fact they wanted to remain in PRO12.

- Conclusion: If the Regions do not, and have never, want to exist PRO12, the Regions do not agree with your claim that the PRO12 is a poor fit for them. That as a model it is contrary to their ideal.

^That's where you are going wrong. Because the 2 aren't mutually inclusive. They detail what's wrong. Why it's incurring the hurdles. Why they feel the processes are unfair. Then they say, in layman's terms, "Look we want to stay in it at this point, but we're not being allowed to thrive as we should be, and there are current processes that we feel are detrimental to us that shouldn't be - so throw us a bone"

I can't put it simpler than that.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 24 Jun 2015, 12:43 pm

"RRW is fighting for its Regions to have the right to control their own destiny. In an ever-changing landscape, it is crucial that, as independent, privately owned businesses, they are able to negotiate for themselves what competitions they play in and what revenue they can generate. On any objective level, it is difficult to comprehend why this should be controversial."

Relevant then
Relevant now
A hindrance then
A hindrance now.

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Post by Guest Wed 24 Jun 2015, 12:47 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

So are you now saying that the Regions want out of PRO12? There is contradiction in what you are saying.

I would assume given the chocie of another competition they'd choose the other competition yes.


- You say PRO12 is a poor fit for the Regions.

- That article explains the Regions position (at the time of negotiating with WRU), and that position was that although they were considering alternatives to the PRO12, it was a position they felt forced upon them and that in fact they wanted to remain in PRO12.

- Conclusion: If the Regions do not, and have never, want to exist PRO12, the Regions do not agree with your claim that the PRO12 is a poor fit for them. That as a model it is contrary to their ideal.

^That's where you are going wrong. Because the 2 aren't mutually inclusive. They detail what's wrong. Why it's incurring the hurdles. Why they feel the processes are unfair. Then they say, in layman's terms,  "Look we want to stay in it at this point, but we're not being allowed to thrive as we should be, and there are current processes that we feel are detrimental to us that shouldn't be - so throw us a bone"

I can't put it simpler than that.

"I would assume given the chocie of another competition they'd choose the other competition yes. "

You assume. That would be because you have no evidence. It's an assumption based on you projecting your own thinking into what the Regions have actually said.

"
That's where you are going wrong. Because the 2 aren't mutually inclusive. They detail what's wrong. Why it's incurring the hurdles. Why they feel the processes are unfair. Then they say, in layman's terms,  "Look we want to stay in it at this point, but we're not being allowed to thrive as we should be, and there are current processes that we feel are detrimental to us that shouldn't be - so throw us a bone"

I'm not going wrong. I know that's what they're saying and that's why I pointed out that this article was a response to ongoing negotiations. They are simply trying to negotiate more control away from WRU. Not PRO12!! They weren't in negotiations with PRO12. The poor fit you speak of wasn't one of the Regions and PRO12. It was one of the Regions and WRU!


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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 24 Jun 2015, 12:51 pm

Munchkin wrote:

"I would assume given the chocie of another competition they'd choose the other competition yes. "

You assume. That would be because you have no evidence. It's an assumption based on you projecting your own thinking into what the Regions have actually said.

Absolutely. And the fact they had signed an agreement to play in an Anglo Welsh recently if Europe had not been sorted in time.

They are simply trying to negotiate more control away from WRU. Not PRO12!!

You've done it again. You're assuming this is one issue in this context.

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Post by Guest Wed 24 Jun 2015, 12:56 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

"I would assume given the chocie of another competition they'd choose the other competition yes. "

You assume. That would be because you have no evidence. It's an assumption based on you projecting your own thinking into what the Regions have actually said.

Absolutely. And the fact they had signed an agreement to play in an Anglo Welsh recently if Europe had not been sorted in time.

They are simply trying to negotiate more control away from WRU. Not PRO12!!

You've done it again. You're assuming this is one issue in this context.

- So you admit that it's simply you super imposing your own thinking on top of what the Regions have actually said.

- I'm not assuming anything. It's what they stated! It's much more than 'just one issue'. It was the main thrust of their argument, and it was within the context of taking more control away from WRU. Not PRO12.


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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 24 Jun 2015, 12:58 pm

Munchkin wrote:

- So you admit that it's simply you super imposing your own thinking on top of what the Regions have actually said.

Everything that needs to be said is in the article I posted, and the important extract is posted above.


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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 24 Jun 2015, 1:00 pm

You have a link to the signed agreement for an Anglo Welsh league Chunky?

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Post by Guest Wed 24 Jun 2015, 1:00 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

- So you admit that it's simply you super imposing your own thinking on top of what the Regions have actually said.

Everything that needs to be said is in the article I posted, and the important extract is posted above.


Only that article contradicts you.

Nuff said. Chunky. We can leave it there if you wish.

No doubt we will engage in the same debate at a later point Very Happy

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 24 Jun 2015, 1:03 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:You have a link to the signed agreement for an Anglo Welsh league Chunky?

A link to the actual agreement? Shocked

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 24 Jun 2015, 1:06 pm

Anything you have really mentioning it will help. Just interested to give it a read.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 24 Jun 2015, 1:08 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Anything you have really mentioning it will help. Just interested to give it a read.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/european-rugby/11155975/How-Englands-Premiership-clubs-went-to-the-brink-of-European-exile-before-Champions-Cup-was-born.html

“We had a signed agreement with the Welsh regions and we would have gone through with an Anglo-Welsh league. It wasn’t our preferred option – the European competition was obviously – but if we had had to go down that route we would have done it.

Bruce Craig, Bath RFC



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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 24 Jun 2015, 1:16 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Anything you have really mentioning it will help. Just interested to give it a read.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/european-rugby/11155975/How-Englands-Premiership-clubs-went-to-the-brink-of-European-exile-before-Champions-Cup-was-born.html

“We had a signed agreement with the Welsh regions and we would have gone through with an Anglo-Welsh league. It wasn’t our preferred option – the European competition was obviously – but if we had had to go down that route we would have done it.

Bruce Craig, Bath RFC



Thanks. Interesting that it wasn't the preferred option and you're obviously very critical of the set up with the Irish union rub teams. Makes the B&I league seem like a long long way off. Would obviously still need agreement from the RFU as well.

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