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Should there be relegation?

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Should there be relegation? Empty Should there be relegation?

Post by wheelchair1991 Wed 17 Jun 2015, 4:33 pm

As a Worcester Warriors fan i know a thing or two about relegation, my question is should in remain?

I think it should i believe there should always be the opportunity for clubs to rise up the pyramid. However when you look at how bad London Welsh were and how far behind they were of the rest in the league. I'd be interested to hear your views on this

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Post by Shifty Thu 23 Jul 2015, 9:53 am

Yes it should because England has a lot of large cities and there is always the potential for another Exeter, Leeds or Newcastle to appear with an investor.
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Post by Scottrf Thu 23 Jul 2015, 10:47 am

Yes, recycling is part of what keeps a league strong. It also gives some meaning to the contest at the bottom of the league, and the top of the league below.

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Post by Cumbrian Thu 23 Jul 2015, 10:53 am

A question ( I hope doesn't come across as snide) I would like to ask is; would Pro12 teams be in favour of relegation if that league developed enough sides to warrant it? Say you got 8-10 more teams i.e. Caledonia Reds and Borders in Scotland, teams from the Valleys and North Wales, the three exile teams, a team from Rome and another from Italy. Maybe the ancient kingdom of Mide in Ireland Very Happy and the Cornish Pirates. Okay so I struggled, but in an ideal world would Pro12 fans be in favour of relegation?
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Post by ScarletSpiderman Thu 23 Jul 2015, 11:03 am

Cumbrian, personally I think I would be in favour of relegation if there were enough teams to form a second tier. As others have said it gives lower sides something to aspire to, and it also keeps the teams at the lower end of the league honest (ensuring they play the full season and don't give up half way through). IMO the addition of the play-off increased the competition in the top five or six spots, and last season the RCC qualification increased the competition in the top six to eight spots. Relegation would really shake up the bottom four spots too. The only issue would be that there could be a situation where the top teir could not involve teams from all four nations (which was a major stumbling block during the euro issues recently).

I think that the English Prem would certainly loose something in they were to ditch relegation and ring fence the Prem.
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Post by Fanster Thu 23 Jul 2015, 11:15 am

I'm going to play devils, and disagree!

I think the playoff system is cracking, and a very good carrot for people to play for, but the stick when added to that just tightens everyones bumhole.

I think the NFL formula proves extremely succesfull, not to mention the Super 15. Relegation isn't necesary, and there was a comment above about leaving an avenue for smaller clubs to get big benefactors and progress, well i think that is the entirely wrong way to go for rugby.

I still dream of a system, that could be implimented in Wales, of a bit of a draft, in whch the premier junior competition (possibly U18 Dewar Shield) could prove a shopping option in which clubs would get picks of certain players as they turn 18 and pro. This would also drive the level of junior rugby up, and allow for academies to produce more and more players to fill these squads, which could be prem club based.

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Post by offload Thu 23 Jul 2015, 11:34 am

I'm a fan of the aviva and relegation. I'm Welsh and attend as many games at Bath as I do the Dragons. IMO and no doubt many will not agree - the quality of rugby in the aviva is better than the pro 12. I think the promotion/relegation system is one of the reasons.

England is big enough with a strong enough 2nd tier to make relegation work. I can't see how this would be possible with the format of the current pro 12.

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Post by beshocked Thu 23 Jul 2015, 11:39 am

Relegation can be a benefit and a curse depending on who you are.

Quins and Saints are two sides that used relegation as a benefit. Both have become stronger teams when they came back up and have subsequently won the AP in the following years.

Relegation is an issue for the likes of Newcastle and Worcester though because they are not as big sides as Saints and Quins. They are constantly in a relegation battle every season with not much chance of that changing till they can build a strong platform.

Exeter are the exception not the rule - they've moved out of the relegation battle because they have been building over years.

The top sides of the Championship vs the bottom of the AP is a real tough dogfight.


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Post by Fanster Thu 23 Jul 2015, 12:34 pm

Offload

If your comparing Bath to Dragons of course the Pro 12 seems lesser quality.

It's hard to truly compare both leagues, as one league is aiding in gutting the talent from the other, Paul James, Hibbard, Evans, Ryan Jones, Matthew Morgan, Fortuali, Adam Jones, are just a small number of Ospreys players based in England or moved to England in recent seasons for money alone, a number moving to Englands second tier due to Bristol's budget being on par if not bigger than Wales highest performaing region.

When clubs from 1 league just cannot compete with offers coming from another it really does bring the average game quality down.

Take Treviso as another example, true losers in the euro struggle, and a benefit to the English and French who gutted the team of 17/19? first team players I think.

So with 6 of the 12 teams in the Rabo financially subservient to the Aviva prem theres no real shock the quality is less.

If we compare the Irish provinces though, Leinster, Munster and Ulster are easily a match for their English counterparts, and Connacht, despite not developing that much now outmuscle the Welsh regions also.

I don't think relegation benefits the Aviva that much, it gives the lower teams less time to adapt and compete, and ensures the top 4/6 teams have a buffer, there will be the odd season where a larger team struggles, but they always bounce back. The Aviva may be better served ringfencing, and allowing for a true 8/10/12 team contest, in which 1 club cannot dominate through financial prowess alone.

That said the Aviva have larger problems than whether relegation happens or not

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Post by offload Thu 23 Jul 2015, 2:24 pm

Fanster wrote:Offload

If your comparing Bath to Dragons of course the Pro 12 seems lesser quality.

It's hard to truly compare both leagues, as one league is aiding in gutting the talent from the other, Paul James, Hibbard, Evans, Ryan Jones, Matthew Morgan, Fortuali, Adam Jones, are just a small number of Ospreys players based in England or moved to England in recent seasons for money alone, a number moving to Englands second tier due to Bristol's budget being on par if not bigger than Wales highest performaing region.

When clubs from 1 league just cannot compete with offers coming from another it really does bring the average game quality down.

Take Treviso as another example, true losers in the euro struggle, and a benefit to the English and French who gutted the team of 17/19? first team players I think.

So with 6 of the 12 teams in the Rabo financially subservient to the Aviva prem theres no real shock the quality is less.

If we compare the Irish provinces though, Leinster, Munster and Ulster are easily a match for their English counterparts, and Connacht, despite not developing that much now outmuscle the Welsh regions also.

I don't think relegation benefits the Aviva that much, it gives the lower teams less time to adapt and compete, and ensures the top 4/6 teams have a buffer, there will be the odd season where a larger team struggles, but they always bounce back.  The Aviva may be better served ringfencing, and allowing for a true 8/10/12 team contest, in which 1 club cannot dominate through financial prowess alone.

That said the Aviva have larger problems than whether relegation happens or not

I agree with some of your points, not all. I understand the ring fence argument, but I believe that the relegation system is a contributor to higher quality rugby more often. I agree that there are numerous reasons why the Rabo produces less quality - financial inequality being one. Where as the Irish provinces can compete with English sides - they frequently produce very average rugby in the pro 12.

I watch just about every game that is televised in both leagues as well as attending a lot of Bath and Dragons home games. Of course there are poor games of rugby in the Aviva, but in my experience most are intensive quality games. The Rabo has a higher % of low skill matches that are mind numbingly dull.
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Post by Fanster Thu 23 Jul 2015, 5:31 pm

Can't argue with that, my mind automatically goes back to every Cardiff Blues game this season, including the thriller v Connacht.

Dragons look to play good stuff, they just don't have the personell, although I rate the management team for being positive!

Sadly the Welsh, Scottish and Italians have been worked over with this new euro tournament, like a lot of people argued at the time they would be, and I can't see a way of increasing the quality without a big uprush in finances available to those 3 nations.

I think there are always going to be dull games in the rabo due to no away support, the weather (nowhere in England feels like a cold wet windy night in Galway with that see breeze lol).

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Post by offload Fri 24 Jul 2015, 3:03 pm

Fanster wrote:Can't argue with that, my mind automatically goes back to every Cardiff Blues game this season, including the thriller v Connacht.

Dragons look to play good stuff, they just don't have the personell, although I rate the management team for being positive!

Sadly the Welsh, Scottish and Italians have been worked over with this new euro tournament, like a lot of people argued at the time they would be, and I can't see a way of increasing the quality without a big uprush in finances available to those 3 nations.

I think there are always going to be dull games in the rabo due to no away support, the weather (nowhere in England feels like a cold wet windy night in Galway with that see breeze lol).

Ha.....I got sun burned in Galway once. Many years ago now and whenever I mention it people assume I'm joking, but it's true. Twas a glorious weekend.
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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 24 Jul 2015, 4:32 pm

Fanster wrote:I'm going to play devils, and disagree!

I think the playoff system is cracking, and a very good carrot for people to play for, but the stick when added to that just tightens everyones bumhole.

I think the NFL formula proves extremely succesfull, not to mention the Super 15. Relegation isn't necesary, and there was a comment above about leaving an avenue for smaller clubs to get big benefactors and progress, well i think that is the entirely wrong way to go for rugby.

I still dream of a system, that could be implimented in Wales, of a bit of a draft, in whch the premier junior competition (possibly U18 Dewar Shield) could prove a shopping option in which clubs would get picks of certain players as they turn 18 and pro. This would also drive the level of junior rugby up, and allow for academies to produce more and more players to fill these squads, which could be prem club based.

There's virtually a draft system now where the county team is trialed and selected from local pro teams. Tigers select heavily from the under whatever Leicestershire team etc, as well as punching from other counties etc. The NFL just make more of a song and dance about it and select at 21/22 where the player has been unpaid for what is effectively the start of his career (College Football is professional in everything except player wages).

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 24 Jul 2015, 11:33 pm

I was raised with the traditional view that relegation was central to the success of Rugby.  Slowly, over the years, I have moved to the middle of the road:  
I see the opportunity for clubs to earn their spot, like Exeter, and hold it successfully.  I also see the twin disasters which London Welsh have done to themselves by over-reaching before being ready.  
I understand the argument that relegation makes for a more exciting end of season, which also drives additional revenue for bottom tier teams.  But Newcastle played some dashing Rugby this season and that was with the threat of relegation removed.  

Ultimately, for the Premiership to survive and grow a stable business model must be achieved.  Ring fencing at 12 teams does not prevent additional teams from joining up.  As with the American sports. the leagues grow as the opportunities for financially solid clubs to join (or clubs with solid financial long term backing contractually obliged).  This can certainly happen in the Premiership.  

I am not sure the best path forwards.  I see both sides of the coin and the merit and potential downside of both.  There are probably multiple paths to financial security for the Premiership and English Rugby.  Just as long as one is selected and committed to for the long run, I will likely be happy. Right now the fate of relegation is open.

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Post by Fanster Sun 26 Jul 2015, 2:42 pm

Thats a good point doc...

Without relegation lower ranked teams can build responibly for the future instead of making knee jerk reactions, look at the Highlanders as a good example!

To increase a leagues interest competition has to be there, and as the NFL does if you can create a system where almost all sets of fans feel like getting a top 4 finish is acheivable at the start of every season the fanbase grows exponentially!

There will be seasons where shock teams take titles, despite spending less than the same big 4, but thats the beauty of sport!

Right now it's he who spends most acheives their goals!

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 26 Jul 2015, 8:40 pm

I agree about the finite number of teams which can spend are having a much better chance of winning. That totally distorts the competition, in my mind. If the Premiership adopted the NFL requirement that teams must spend at least 89% of the salary cap on salaries, then the money issue goes away. It would also ensure more financially sound teams in the competition.

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Post by Geordie Mon 27 Jul 2015, 8:45 am

The championship play off for promotion to the prem should be scrapped though. Its pants!

And if they want to keep it, then increase the number of teams in the prem and make it two up two down.

Ultimately I see nothing other than an increased top league being ringfenced.
14 teams maybe...no promotion or relegation for 3 years when others can bid to get in.

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Post by doctor_grey Tue 28 Jul 2015, 2:28 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:The championship play off for promotion to the prem should be scrapped though. Its pants!

And if they want to keep it, then increase the number of teams in the prem and make it two up two down.

Ultimately I see nothing other than an increased top league being ringfenced.
14 teams maybe...no promotion or relegation for 3 years when others can bid to get in.
The ironic thing, mate, is the Championship playoffs have produced some real exciting Rugby. The problem, as we all know, is that a team qualified twice which didn't have the resources to compete at the next level. So we have that strange situation that we had great Rugby playoffs but the wrong team won.

I like seeing a little tv attention focused on the Championship. But obviously something must be done. Once there is a solid financial footing for the league, then relegation, the number of teams, qualification for the Premiership, and so on need to be sorted. But I would start with the raw financials.

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Post by Irish Londoner Tue 28 Jul 2015, 10:26 am

At present and for the foreseeable future there is no chance of the PRO12 having relegation as there would be nowhere to go for the club and it will be a long time (if ever) that a viable second division could operate - maybe in the distant future with other European sides joining.

In the case of England I'd like to see the top two divisions much more closely integrated and fully professional similar to the French set up, with two places up for grabs, an automatic place for the top team and a play off system for the second place, the quid pro quo being that a fully professional and integrated league allows a decent income for the relegated Aviva teams in the lower divisions so no one goes to the wall following relegation.

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