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London Welsh in the Pro12 ? The subject just will not go away.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:49 am

First topic message reminder :

London Welsh chairman Bleddyn Phillips says the club would be open to quitting the English game to join the Pro12. I thought this was now put to bed, but now the head honcho at London Welsh is telling people he would like to see it happen, do you agree with what he has to say ? Especially about the travelling to London rather than further afield, an obvious dig at the Italians, he also says "There would be a degree of support behind the possibility." I don't think there would be much of a chance of LW joining the Pro12, I just think he is trying to cause a stir because of this ring fenced Aviva idea, I would rather see a North Wales region in the Pro12 before London Welsh. Here take a read:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/33347545

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:07 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:But they won't pay that as there isn't the competition for rugby or the demand to watch it. You may as well say the English alone will get that next time, so again it doesn't benefit the English clubs.

Ah bugger. I must be wrong then.

Thank god you've finally got to that point.

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Post by Irish Londoner Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:18 pm

Chunky, going back to that thread you never really answered the main question I asked - what is in it for the English clubs to make them want to have a B & I league as I cannot see a single advantage for them - the top end clubs would not be happy with the increased competition for the title and the lower end clubs would not be happy being "relegated" to a lower division to accomodate the Celts.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:20 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:Chunky, going back to that thread you never really answered the main question I asked - what is in it for the English clubs to make them want to have a B & I league as I cannot see a single advantage for them

As I posted an hour and a half ago:

very crudely - more money to spend on academies, facilities and players, salary caps could increase, better squads to challenge in Europe.


the top end clubs would not be happy with the increased competition for the title and the lower end clubs would not be happy being "relegated" to a lower division to accomodate the Celts.

There may be no "divisions". Conferences could be the way to go.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:28 pm

With 2 conferences whats the point of Europe? People wouldn't want it and money would fall. It would make the English think about their salary cap though, either get rid or ensure everyone was playing to the same rules.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:32 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:With 2 conferences whats the point of Europe? People wouldn't want it and money would fall. It would make the English think about their salary cap though, either get rid or ensure everyone was playing to the same rules.

What do you mean what's the point of Europe? You wouldn't necessarily play he same teams in the league as you do in Europe. The French for a start.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:50 pm

You'd already have the majority of teams in the same comp. You'd just really be adding the top French teams and rehashing the domestic comp. Would the unions involved be happy that England/RFU/PRL took the much bigger wedge of money as they have more clubs as well? I can see that being a battle ground.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:56 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:You'd already have the majority of teams in the same comp. You'd just really be adding the top French teams and rehashing the domestic comp.

No different to now. Apart from Stade Francais, all other teams in my team's RCC group, we played in other competitions last year.

Would the unions involved be happy that England/RFU/PRL took the much bigger wedge of money as they have more clubs as well? I can see that being a battle ground.

I don't understand why England are getting a bigger wedge of money?


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Post by Guest Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:57 pm

The Champions cup would lose value with two of the three leagues basically joined together with English teams playing Irish/Welsh/Scots teams every week.
So 13 of one league goes through to play against 7 from another (French)? I'm sure the French would be delighted. Disaster, and unsustainable, methinks.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:00 pm

You're lookign at it too simplistically. It's a fine model, and is the future of pro domestic rugby.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:00 pm

It is different to now as you have 3 leagues worth of teams who wouldn't be playing each other. Even if there were 2 conferences the big boys would end up in some sort of play off so you're just replicating that system and adding a couple of big French teams.

The 2nd point was maybe my misunderstanding of the current Pro 12 deal; is the money split evenly between Unions or teams? If it's teams no issues, if it's Unions I don't think that would suit the English whose teams would then get a smaller piece of pie.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:05 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:It is different to now as you have 3 leagues worth of teams who wouldn't be playing each other. Even if there were 2 conferences the big boys would end up in some sort of play off so you're just replicating that system and adding a couple of big French teams.

Why is a play off replicating the Rugby Champions Cup? That makes no sense.

Have a look at the RCC pools for next year. Every pool has teams which play themselves in other competitions. Some Multiple. It's just another excuse to rubbish it as fantasy.

The 2nd point was maybe my misunderstanding of the current Pro 12 deal; is the money split evenly between Unions or teams? If it's teams no issues, if it's Unions I don't think that would suit the English whose teams would then get a smaller piece of pie.

it's teams. It is all about a competition run by the people with proper business sense. Not the Unions blazers out for the jollies.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:09 pm

Well to be fair it is fantasy Chunky. Just a mock European league without the French then expect TV interest to be the same for the same thing with a couple more big teams thrown in.

You say teams, is that how the money is currently broken down in the Pro 12? I'm not sure of the answer.

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Post by Guest Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:09 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:You're lookign at it too simplistically.  It's a fine model, and is the future of pro domestic rugby.

I could be, but you would have to show me how this model of yours could possibly work for the benefit of all. I don't believe it can. The French certainly wouldn't accept such a shift of power with much of that Power now in the hands of those from the B&I. The French are not reliant on the Champions Cup, and they are not going to participate in a Cup that gives a distinct advantage to another league over them.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:11 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well to be fair it is fantasy Chunky. Just a mock European league without the French then expect TV interest to be the same for the same thing with a couple more big teams thrown in.

It needs to happen. Otherwise some tier 1 countries could be come tier 2 countries with no professional players to speak of.

You say teams, is that how the money is currently broken down in the Pro 12? I'm not sure of the answer.

Why the relevance?

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:13 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:You're lookign at it too simplistically.  It's a fine model, and is the future of pro domestic rugby.

I could be, but you would have to show me how this model of yours could possibly work for the benefit of all. I don't believe it can. The French certainly wouldn't accept such a shift of power with much of that Power now in the hands of those from the B&I. The French are not reliant on the Champions Cup, and they are not going to participate in a Cup that gives a distinct advantage to another league over them.

What have the French got to do with it? They have to accept whatever league structure is decide on. As we accept whatever league structure they have in France.

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Post by Guest Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:14 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:You're lookign at it too simplistically.  It's a fine model, and is the future of pro domestic rugby.

I could be, but you would have to show me how this model of yours could possibly work for the benefit of all. I don't believe it can. The French certainly wouldn't accept such a shift of power with much of that Power now in the hands of those from the B&I. The French are not reliant on the Champions Cup, and they are not going to participate in a Cup that gives a distinct advantage to another league over them.

What have the French got to do with it? They have to accept whatever league structure is decide on. As we accept whatever league structure they have in France.

What have the French got to do with a European Champions Cup? Shocked

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:15 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Well to be fair it is fantasy Chunky. Just a mock European league without the French then expect TV interest to be the same for the same thing with a couple more big teams thrown in.

It needs to happen. Otherwise some tier 1 countries could be come tier 2 countries with no professional players to speak of.

You say teams, is that how the money is currently broken down in the Pro 12? I'm not sure of the answer.

Why the relevance?

First point, not sure that the English will care and they're not liekly to drop given resources hence why I've put the focus on what do the Englisg get out of this.

Second point is relevant as if it's currently broken down by Unions those Unions are liekly to want to replicate that same system. Is it broken down this way?

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:16 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:You're lookign at it too simplistically.  It's a fine model, and is the future of pro domestic rugby.

I could be, but you would have to show me how this model of yours could possibly work for the benefit of all. I don't believe it can. The French certainly wouldn't accept such a shift of power with much of that Power now in the hands of those from the B&I. The French are not reliant on the Champions Cup, and they are not going to participate in a Cup that gives a distinct advantage to another league over them.

What have the French got to do with it? They have to accept whatever league structure is decide on. As we accept whatever league structure they have in France.

What have the French got to do with a European Champions Cup? Shocked

Why would they not want to play in it? They're signed up to t, and it will be the same. I don't understand your whinge.

Your trying to seek out every possible negative / excuse for this not to happen and some of them just don't add up.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:18 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:

First point, not sure that the English will care and they're not liekly to drop given resources hence why I've put the focus on what do the Englisg get out of this.

Second point is relevant as if it's currently broken down by Unions those Unions are liekly to want to replicate that same system. Is it broken down this way?

The Pro 12 is currently run by Unions. Ad the central money is divided by them yes. Reading between the lines, the WRU and SRU would be up for a new British and Irish comp if done correctly, but the Irish are still stuck in their blazertastic idyllic world in 1957 so that's the stumbling block.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:25 pm

As long as BT or Sky are ready to double their current funding and screen twice the amount of games already and all the unions are happy that funding is spread equally we're on. Scrub that money wise the English would stoill be getting the same amount,so surely they'll be after a little extra per club. Fair enough I'd say.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:28 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:As long as BT or Sky are ready to double their current funding and screen twice the amount of games already and all the unions are happy that funding is spread equally we're on.

thumbsup

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Post by Guest Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:31 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:You're lookign at it too simplistically.  It's a fine model, and is the future of pro domestic rugby.

I could be, but you would have to show me how this model of yours could possibly work for the benefit of all. I don't believe it can. The French certainly wouldn't accept such a shift of power with much of that Power now in the hands of those from the B&I. The French are not reliant on the Champions Cup, and they are not going to participate in a Cup that gives a distinct advantage to another league over them.

What have the French got to do with it? They have to accept whatever league structure is decide on. As we accept whatever league structure they have in France.

What have the French got to do with a European Champions Cup? Shocked

Why would they not want to play in it? They're signed up to t, and it will be the same. I don't understand your whinge.

Your trying to seek out every possible negative / excuse for this not to happen and some of them just don't add up.



So asking you questions is whinging?

They have signed up to it for now, but they don't have to sign up again once the contract expires. I would have thought that obvious.

I've already made clear why the French wouldn't want to play in it. They wouldn't want to play in a competition so weighted against them in terms of power. They wouldn't want to play in a competition that gives their competitors a distinct advantage over them. They don't need the Champions Cup.

I'm not trying to be negative. It just happens that your dream is being challenged, and in being challenged it is found wanting. It's an idea without substance.
Now, I have asked you to basically expand on this vision of yours and explain how it could be workable (having a B&I and a Champions Cup), but rather than expound on your thinking, you prefer to engage in ad hom.
You don't have any strength to your argument. The negatives are negatives for a reason. Your idea is deeply flawed.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:35 pm

Munchkin wrote:

I've already made clear why the French wouldn't want to play in it. They wouldn't want to play in a competition so weighted against them in terms of power. They wouldn't want to play in a competition that gives their competitors a distinct advantage over them. They don't need the Champions Cup.

But all that is the same as now. So why are they playing in it now?

I'm not trying to be negative. It just happens that your dream is being challenged, and in being challenged it is found wanting. It's an idea with substance.
Now, I have asked you to basically expand on this vision of yours and explain how it could be workable (having a B&I and a Champions Cup), but rather than expound on your thinking, you prefer to engage in ad hom.
You don't have any strength to your argument. The negatives are negatives for a reason. Your idea is deeply flawed.

I have explained everything. And it adds up. As I said, the teams in RCC currently face each other in other competitions. Very little change.

It's already been reported in the press that the English clubs know they have to do this to close the gap between the French. It's going to happen. Just may take 4-5 years rather than 1-2.

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Post by Guest Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:44 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

I've already made clear why the French wouldn't want to play in it. They wouldn't want to play in a competition so weighted against them in terms of power. They wouldn't want to play in a competition that gives their competitors a distinct advantage over them. They don't need the Champions Cup.

But all that is the same as now. So why are they playing in it now?

I'm not trying to be negative. It just happens that your dream is being challenged, and in being challenged it is found wanting. It's an idea with substance.
Now, I have asked you to basically expand on this vision of yours and explain how it could be workable (having a B&I and a Champions Cup), but rather than expound on your thinking, you prefer to engage in ad hom.
You don't have any strength to your argument. The negatives are negatives for a reason. Your idea is deeply flawed.

I have explained everything. And it adds up. As I said, the teams in RCC currently face each other in other competitions. Very little change.

It's already been reported in the press that the English clubs know they have to do this to close the gap between the French. It's going to happen. Just may take 4-5 years rather than 1-2.

It isn't the same as it is now. How can it be? At present we have three leagues represented in the Champions Cup. With a B&I we would have two leagues. One of those leagues would likely have 13 teams go through against only 7 from the T14.

You have explained nothing beyond what you would like to see. There is no substance to your vision. It's all on the surface.

It hasn't been reported in the press that there's going to be a B&I league. There was some talk about some clubs members having an informal chat about the possibility, and that appears to be no more than certain English clubs trying to use the threat of a B&I as a leverage against some weaker English clubs during the fall out over the salary cap. Again, it's a story without substance (as far as a B&I is concerned), even if it is accurate.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:49 pm

Munchkin wrote:

It isn't the same as it is now. How can it be? At present we have three leagues represented in the Champions Cup. With a B&I we would have two leagues. One of those leagues would likely have 13 teams go through against only 7 from the T14.

You have explained nothing beyond what you would like to see. There is no substance to your vision. It's all on the surface.

You're assuming those 13 teams play each other all season though. You clearly haven't read the methodology properly.

Plus, with a 2 tier league system (the other method) that reduces the possibility of meeting the same teams.

It hasn't been reported in the press that there's going to be a B&I league.

I never said it had. Jees, your just trolling now.

There was some talk about some clubs members having an informal chat about the possibility, and that appears to be no more than certain English clubs trying to use the threat of a B&I as a leverage against some weaker English clubs during the fall out over the salary cap. Again, it's a story without substance (as far as a B&I is concerned), even if it is accurate.

It's even been called for in the Irish press.

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Post by Guest Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:52 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

It isn't the same as it is now. How can it be? At present we have three leagues represented in the Champions Cup. With a B&I we would have two leagues. One of those leagues would likely have 13 teams go through against only 7 from the T14.

You have explained nothing beyond what you would like to see. There is no substance to your vision. It's all on the surface.

You're assuming those 13 teams play each other all season though. You clearly haven't read the methodology properly.

Plus, with a 2 tier league system (the other method) that reduces the possibility of meeting the same teams.

It hasn't been reported in the press that there's going to be a B&I league.

I never said it had. Jees, your just trolling now.

There was some talk about some clubs members having an informal chat about the possibility, and that appears to be no more than certain English clubs trying to use the threat of a B&I as a leverage against some weaker English clubs during the fall out over the salary cap. Again, it's a story without substance (as far as a B&I is concerned), even if it is accurate.

It's even been called for in the Irish press.

This is what you said:

"It's already been reported in the press that the English clubs know they have to do this to close the gap between the French. It's going to happen. Just may take 4-5 years rather than 1-2."

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:53 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:As long as BT or Sky are ready to double their current funding and screen twice the amount of games already and all the unions are happy that funding is spread equally we're on.

thumbsup

Why are you missing my full quote?

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:58 pm

Munchkin wrote:

This is what you said:

"It's already been reported in the press that the English clubs know they have to do this to close the gap between the French. It's going to happen. Just may take 4-5 years rather than 1-2."

Yes. This statement is true.

This statement doesn't say "It's been reported in the press that there's going to be a B&I league". Which is what you claimed.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:58 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:As long as BT or Sky are ready to double their current funding and screen twice the amount of games already and all the unions are happy that funding is spread equally we're on.

thumbsup

Why are you missing my full quote?
Because the rest of it is rubbish.

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Post by Irish Londoner Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:59 pm

Chunky you still haven't answered my questions:

What do the top English clubs get out of it other than having more teams competing with them to finish higher up the table - even if there was twice the TV/sponsorship money available it would just be split more ways - you'd need to treble or quadrouple it to make it attractive to the likes of Bath and Saracens.

What do the English clubs outside the top six get out of it - more travelling, their arses handed to them by the best PRO12 clubs as well as the Avivia ones, and get pushed further down the pecking order by the PRO12 clubs. Never mind the issue of promotion and relegation from the Championship.

Where is the benefit for anyone involved in English professional rugby at any level unless BT or SKY throw huge amounts of money at a minority sport?

Why will the Welsh clubs suddenly sort out all the Regional issues, disenfranchisment (I love that word!) and the lack of support at the grounds - are the Valleys suddenly going to jump on the train to Cardiff because the Blues are playing Worcester rather than Edinburgh ?

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Post by Irish Londoner Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:01 pm

Oh and how will the English clubs react after season one of the B & I the top three are Ulster, Leinster and Munster ? Leprechaun Very Happy

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:04 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:Chunky you still haven't answered my questions:

What do the top English clubs get out of it other than having more teams competing with them to finish higher up the table - even if there was twice the TV/sponsorship money available it would just be split more ways - you'd need to treble or quadrouple it to make it attractive to the likes of Bath and Saracens.

For the 3rd time in this tread:

they'd have far more money to spend on academies, facilities and players, salary caps could increase, better squads to challenge in Europe. Yes the money would be trebled or quadrupled. It's peanuts to BT Sport.

What do the English clubs outside the top six get out of it - more travelling, their arses handed to them by the best PRO12 clubs as well as the Avivia ones, and get pushed further down the pecking order by the PRO12 clubs. Never mind the issue of promotion and relegation from the Championship.

Championship? That's ringfenced out.

The clubs outside the top 6 get far more money to spend on academies, facilities and players, salary caps could increase, better squads to try and qualify for Europe

Where is the benefit for anyone involved in English professional rugby at any level unless BT or SKY throw huge amounts of money at a minority sport?

Don't udnerstand the question.

Why will the Welsh clubs suddenly sort out all the Regional issues, disenfranchisment (I love that word!) and the lack of support at the grounds - are the Valleys suddenly going to jump on the train to Cardiff because the Blues are playing Worcester rather than Edinburgh ?

I am nsure why you have got this notion that all the regional issues will be solved. I don't recall ever saying that. Maybe the person that said that can answer this one for you.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:39 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:As long as BT or Sky are ready to double their current funding and screen twice the amount of games already and all the unions are happy that funding is spread equally we're on.

thumbsup

Why are you missing my full quote?
Because the rest of it is rubbish.

Say that then dont misquote me or take it out of context. Given this is about benefitting English clubs the increased travel should result in more money for them otherwise you have them getting nothing extra when they have the greater negotiating power.

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Post by lostinwales Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:13 pm

I was always under the impression that one of the big things that makes the AP work is that you get travelling fans. Newcastle right out on the edge gets a smaller crowd as a result of the limits of how far people will regularly travel.

Now I get that Cardiff and even Swansea have fairly good links with England and could therefore feed into that kind of system. You could see Newcastle benefit if playing Scottish teams, but in general if you open up the area which the new league covers you are in effect reducing the possible pool of supporters for individual games.

It is the sort of thing that might have worked if it had been imposed early enough in the development of professionalism, but its too late now. The AP is doing very nicely thank you, with a product and gates that are both improving. It is not all sustainable beyond the financing provided by the pockets of a few wealthy and insane fans but it is generally moving in the right direction. There is precious little reason for why the PRL might want to throw that away in the current climate.

Kill off european competition for one thing and then the situation might change a little. But as has been often repeated there is nothing to gain for the English clubs here

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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:40 pm

So.... I am not saying this board is a perfect mirror of the Rugby community in England, Ireland Scotland and Wales.... But....

We have loads of English, Irish, Scots and Welsh people saying they don't want a B&I league and one Welsh bloke who wants it more than his next shag. To the point that he interprets the PRL's using of the Welsh Regions to break the deadlock in Europe as a genuine attempt to start an Anglo Welsh league.

Does that make it inevitable in 4 to 5 years? We'll see

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:10 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:So.... I am not saying this board is a perfect mirror of the Rugby community in England, Ireland Scotland and Wales.... But....

We have loads of English, Irish, Scots and Welsh people saying they don't want a B&I league and one Welsh bloke who wants it more than his next shag. To the point that he interprets the PRL's using of the Welsh Regions to break the deadlock in Europe as a genuine attempt to start an Anglo Welsh league.

Does that make it inevitable in 4 to 5 years? We'll see

Irish press have called for it too mind.

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Post by Steffan Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:39 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:We have loads of English, Irish, Scots and Welsh people saying they don't want a B&I league and one Welsh bloke who wants it more than his next first shag
Corrected that for you thumbsup

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Post by Guest Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:02 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

This is what you said:

"It's already been reported in the press that the English clubs know they have to do this to close the gap between the French. It's going to happen. Just may take 4-5 years rather than 1-2."

Yes. This statement is true.

This statement doesn't say "It's been reported in the press that there's going to be a B&I league". Which is what you claimed.

You're such a spoofer. What else were you talking about when you said "It's already been reported in the press that the English clubs know they have to do this to close the gap between the French. "?

Here's the discussion, just to add context:


Me - "I'm not trying to be negative. It just happens that your dream is being challenged, and in being challenged it is found wanting. It's an idea with substance.
Now, I have asked you to basically expand on this vision of yours and explain how it could be workable (having a B&I and a Champions Cup), but rather than expound on your thinking, you prefer to engage in ad hom.
You don't have any strength to your argument. The negatives are negatives for a reason. Your idea is deeply flawed."


You - "I have explained everything. And it adds up. As I said, the teams in RCC currently face each other in other competitions. Very little change.

It's already been reported in the press that the English clubs know they have to do this to close the gap between the French. It's going to happen. Just may take 4-5 years rather than 1-2."


If you didn't mean that the press reported that English clubs know they have to form a B&I league, then what on earth did you mean?

Just admit it, you're spoofing. Very Happy

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Post by Steffan Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:18 pm

Munchkin wrote:Just admit it, you're spoofing. Very Happy
What is spoofing when its at home?

You are probably right mind that Chunky Norwich will say anything to start an arguement

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Post by Guest Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:44 pm

Steffan wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Just admit it, you're spoofing. Very Happy
What is spoofing when its at home?

You are probably right mind that Chunky Norwich will say anything to start an arguement

That's a good question. It's a word I haven't used in years, and had to check just to make sure Very Happy  Anyway:

1. A satirical imitation; a parody or send-up.
2. A deception or ruse.
tr.v. spoofed, spoof·ing, spoofs
1. To do a spoof of; satirize.
2. To play a trick on; deceive.
3. Computers To assume or emulate the identity of (another user or device) in order to gain access to a system.

I'm going for 2 even if I could have used a word more appropriate.

He can start an argument ok. It's finishing them is the problem.

I'm just having a bit of fun anyway. Chunky's not a bad sort at all Very Happy

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Post by Sin é Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:00 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:

First point, not sure that the English will care and they're not liekly to drop given resources hence why I've put the focus on what do the Englisg get out of this.

Second point is relevant as if it's currently broken down by Unions those Unions are liekly to want to replicate that same system. Is it broken down this way?

The Pro 12 is currently run by Unions. Ad the central money is divided by them yes. Reading between the lines, the WRU and SRU would be up for a new British and Irish comp if done correctly, but the Irish are still stuck in their blazertastic idyllic world in 1957 so that's the stumbling block.

The funny thing about that is that the only teams the PRL want in their B&I League are the Big 3 Irish Provinces (they don't want Connacht). Reason (according to Mick Dawson, Leinster CEO who has spoken with some of the PRL Club Owners) - the Irish Provinces have great support and plenty of ex-pats in England.

Chunky you better hope the IRFU doesn't sell out to the PRL. The English clubs would make space for the Irish Provinces because they know they will make up the money easy from the gate.
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Post by Chunky Norwich Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:00 am

Munchkin wrote:
If you didn't mean that the press reported that English clubs know they have to form a B&I league, then what on earth did you mean?


Yes that's what I meant. It's really not a difficult concept.

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Post by Guest Sat Jul 04, 2015 10:29 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
If you didn't mean that the press reported that English clubs know they have to form a B&I league, then what on earth did you mean?


Yes that's what I meant. It's really not a difficult concept.

It hasn't been reported in the press that English clubs know they have to form a B&I league. It was reported that some members of some clubs have had informal chats about a possible B&I league. It was also reported that certain of the bigger AP clubs used these chats as an attempt to pressure some the smaller AP clubs into accepting the package of recent proposals, including the proposal to hold off investigations into the salary cap.

Chunky, it's not going to happen any time soon, if ever. I know you think maybe in 4 or 5 years, but there's no hard evidence to back up that prediction. It's possible that it could happen, but it's also very unlikely. Too many things would need to happen for that to be made a reality, including a financial incentive for AP teams to agree to it. Now, you argue that the financial incentive can be provided by broadcasters for coverage of a B&I league, but there's two big problems with that argument. One is that any financial incentive would have to be huge in order to make it an attractive enough proposition for AP sides *, and two would be the negative impact a B&I league would have on the European Champions Cup. So even if a broadcaster came up with the huge increase in money for a B&I league, the money lost due to a weakened or abolished Champions Cup would counter those gains. PRL will not want to lose what they will view as their creation; the new Champions Cup.

* You envisage a conference type league. Why would any broadcaster invest so heavily in a league with so many teams when it would make more sense to invest in a league with maybe 12/14 of the strongest, more commercially attractive, teams in a more appealing format? Were they not some of the arguments for this new Champions Cup?
I don't believe a B&I will happen, but if it were to happen I do think that half of the PRO12 and AP sides would be cut loose from top level competition, to fade away into obscurity, eventually.

Your best hope is that the Champions Cup proves a failure within the next couple of seasons, Chunky. And even if changing circumstances bring about a B&I league, you then have to hope that all Regions are included, which I think would be extremely unlikely.

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Post by The Great Aukster Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:00 pm

BT were prepared to push the boat out with their sport offering as they were losing broadband subscribers hand over fist to Sky. They have stemmed that flow enough to start trying to recoup their losses by upping their subs again.

Expecting the reputed £40 million that the PRL currently gets to suddenly jump to £160 million for a B&I league to work is cloud cuckoo land. If there was someone mad enough out there with that kind of dosh to kiss goodbye to - then it just might work...

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Post by Chunky Norwich Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:35 am

Munchkin wrote:

Your best hope is that the Champions Cup proves a failure within the next couple of seasons, Chunky. And even if changing circumstances bring about a B&I league, you then have to hope that all Regions are included, which I think would be extremely unlikely.

What a bizarre thing to say.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:55 am

Given the view that a top combined league for B&I teams (a very remote chance in itself as Munchkin says) you would be unlikely to have all the Irish, all the Welsh, All the English etc so not really bizarre.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:57 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Given the view that a top combined league for B&I teams (a very remote chance in itself as Munchkin says) you would be unlikely to have all the Irish, all the Welsh, All the English etc so not really bizarre.

Why's that? Which 24 teams would be in it then?

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Post by LondonTiger Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:01 am

I assume chunky is suggesting two divisions?

But a B&I league would surely only happen if we had no European competition and the 6Ns was moved to the end of the season.

also as one of the supposed prime movers for this idea is Bruce Craig - it should be remembered that his endgoal is a European Super League (Possibly a euro/Saffer Superleague).

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:03 am

You wouldn't have a 24 team league Chunks.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:05 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:You wouldn't have a 24 team league Chunks.

Why on earth not? Anything less than all pro teams in the same competition is totally unviable.

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