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Aviva Prem fixtures announced today - Pro12 to follow suit?

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 03 Jul 2015, 10:43 am

First topic message reminder :

Aviva Premiership fixtures announced today. Great for the fans to be aware of when and where their teams will play.

Lets see how far the pro12 are behind in releasing theirs.

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Post by Guest Thu 23 Jul 2015, 2:04 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:Nice to know you read Gwlad though.

I enjoy a good laugh Very Happy

To be fair, they're not all bad. Most are decent guys, and there are some decent discussions from time to time. It's just the few tin hatted ones make a lot of noise as usual.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 23 Jul 2015, 2:21 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Name me the eight Irish directors. Name all executive directors and their nationalities.

I have already listed the 8 that reside in Ireland on this thread.

What's incorrect? A GWlad poster posted that nonsense about the eight directors the same day you posted the same here. Maybe you are that poster Very Happy

Yes, maybe.

Residing in Ireland doesn't make you Irish!! It simply means you live there. Now name the eight Irish directors and name all executive directors and their nationalities?

Yes, maybe, what? You are that poster?
John Hussey, Garett fitzgerald, John Feehan, Christine Connolly, Phillip Browne, Conor O'Brien, Tina Robertson - ALL are Irish.

Ross Broomfield appears to be English but works for the pro 12 in Dublin.

How you cannot think that the board of Directors are overloaded in favour of the Irish is beyond me. Absolutely beyond my tiny mind.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 23 Jul 2015, 2:28 pm

Some of these are important rugby people too. The Irish provinces have lots of voices on the board of Directors. Lots of people to shout for them.

The Welsh regions have 1.

And some people think that doesn't make a difference?

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Post by Guest Thu 23 Jul 2015, 2:32 pm

Right, so not eight, and whoever made the claim on GWlad obviously just had a quick glance at the structure and decided to shoe-horn whatever information he gleaned into fitting his own preconceived notions about PRO12/Irish, and did so to fuel his own agenda.

Now, of those seven you list, which ones get to vote?

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Post by marty2086 Thu 23 Jul 2015, 2:40 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Name me the eight Irish directors. Name all executive directors and their nationalities.

I have already listed the 8 that reside in Ireland on this thread.

What's incorrect? A GWlad poster posted that nonsense about the eight directors the same day you posted the same here. Maybe you are that poster Very Happy

Yes, maybe.

Residing in Ireland doesn't make you Irish!! It simply means you live there. Now name the eight Irish directors and name all executive directors and their nationalities?

Yes, maybe, what? You are that poster?
John Hussey, Garett fitzgerald, John Feehan, Christine Connolly, Phillip Browne, Conor O'Brien, Tina Robertson - ALL are Irish.

Ross Broomfield appears to be English but works for the pro 12 in Dublin.

How you cannot think that the board of Directors are overloaded in favour of the Irish is beyond me. Absolutely beyond my tiny mind.

I thought you'd taken your ball and went home already

Chunky Id like you to tell me what decisions each of those directors have taken to adversely affect the regions

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Post by Guest Thu 23 Jul 2015, 3:04 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:Some of these are important rugby people too. The Irish provinces have lots of voices on the board of Directors. Lots of people to shout for them.

The Welsh regions have 1.

And some people think that doesn't make a difference?

One??? Where did you get that from? You have one chair and two voting directors......

I think you have one Chairman and three directors:

Mr Andy Irvine, Chairman of RaboDirect PRO12, today announced that Mr Roger Morris of Wales is the new Disciplinary Chairman for Celtic Rugby, taking over from Mr David Martin of Ireland.. Welsh

After retiring as a player, (Thomas) Davies became a journalist, writing on rugby matters for The Times. He sat on Tasker Watkins committee to reform Welsh rugby. He became chairman of the Wales Youth Agency, and his commitment to youth work earned him a CBE in 2002.
Davies holds Honorary Fellowships from the University of Wales, Lampeter and the University of Wales, Aberystwyth. He was awarded an Honorary Fellowship from Cardiff University in a graduation ceremony held on 15 July 2008.[8] On 18 July 2008, he received an honorary degree from Loughborough University for services to sport and journalism. He is also a Deputy Lieutenant of Gwent. Welsh

Former Honda UK and Europe boss Mark Davies has stepped down from his role as Scarlets chief executive to lead RRW, which represents the four regional sides in Wales. Simon Thomas caught up with him at the European Cup and Challenge Cup launch in Dublin. Welsh

And then, of course, Roger Lewis.......


Last edited by Munchkin on Thu 23 Jul 2015, 3:35 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Post by marty2086 Thu 23 Jul 2015, 3:19 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:Some of these are important rugby people too. The Irish provinces have lots of voices on the board of Directors. Lots of people to shout for them.

The Welsh regions have 1.

And some people think that doesn't make a difference?

One??? Where did you get that from? You have one chair and two voting directors......

The same place he gets most of his 'facts' Whistle Rolling Eyes

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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 23 Jul 2015, 3:25 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:Some of these are important rugby people too. The Irish provinces have lots of voices on the board of Directors. Lots of people to shout for them.

The Welsh regions have 1.

And some people think that doesn't make a difference?

One??? Where did you get that from? You have one chair and two voting directors......

But up until now, only 1 has had the regions best interest at heart, and as we know the regions have a vastly different approach to rugby administration that Scotland, Ireland and Italy.

Hopefully the chairman and new CEO will make that 3. But even then - the Union blazerites will outvote the regions on anything, because they'll be in the minority.

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Post by Sin é Thu 23 Jul 2015, 3:28 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Name me the eight Irish directors. Name all executive directors and their nationalities.

I have already listed the 8 that reside in Ireland on this thread.

What's incorrect? A GWlad poster posted that nonsense about the eight directors the same day you posted the same here. Maybe you are that poster Very Happy

Yes, maybe.

Residing in Ireland doesn't make you Irish!! It simply means you live there. Now name the eight Irish directors and name all executive directors and their nationalities?

Yes, maybe, what? You are that poster?
John Hussey, Garett fitzgerald, John Feehan, Christine Connolly, Phillip Browne, Conor O'Brien, Tina Robertson - ALL are Irish.

Ross Broomfield appears to be English but works for the pro 12 in Dublin.

How you cannot think that the board of Directors are overloaded in favour of the Irish is beyond me. Absolutely beyond my tiny mind.

I've explained to you before that if the PRO12 want to claim a TAX EXEMPTION (i.e., this means between 12.5%+ on the PRO12's earnings), it is a legal requirement that the majority of directors are Irish and resident in Ireland.

Two people in that group have a vote - Garrett Fitzgerald (Munster CEO, representing the 4x Irish Provinces - it seems to rotate - Mick Dawson of Leinster was on it last year) and Philip Browne (IRFU CEO) - similar to Wales having Mark Davies (RRW) and Roger Lewis (WRU). Gerald Davies (Welsh nominee is non-voting Chairman - having taken over from Andy Irvine (I think). They rotate the chairmanship between the different countries.

One thing which should cheer you up though - it is a legal requirement that directors do not receive any reward to avail of the TAX EXEMPTION (they can claim expenses though). This also applies to the IRFU. Maybe explains why there are not so many 'hangers on' as in other Unions.


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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 23 Jul 2015, 3:28 pm

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Id like you to tell me what decisions each of those directors have taken to adversely affect the regions

The administrators of the league take on all different tasks from appointment of referees / TMOs to writing the policies of tendering for the Final to arranging the fixtures. Between all of these decisions and more, you can rest assured that the Irish will be taken care of by their 8 Irish based Directors. You only have to look at the fixtures to see this.

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Post by Guest Thu 23 Jul 2015, 3:32 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:Some of these are important rugby people too. The Irish provinces have lots of voices on the board of Directors. Lots of people to shout for them.

The Welsh regions have 1.

And some people think that doesn't make a difference?

One??? Where did you get that from? You have one chair and two voting directors......

But up until now, only 1 has had the regions best interest at heart, and as we know the regions have a vastly different approach to rugby administration that Scotland, Ireland and Italy.

Hopefully the chairman and new CEO will make that 3. But even then - the Union blazerites will outvote the regions on anything, because they'll be in the minority.

I have added to my previous post. I think Wales have one chairman with three other directors.

So now you're claiming you said one because only that one acts in the best interests of the Regions Very Happy  Sure....

I know Roger sacrifices his all for the Regions, but it's a bit mean not to give credit to those other Welsh on the PRO12 board.


Last edited by Munchkin on Thu 23 Jul 2015, 3:34 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 23 Jul 2015, 3:32 pm

Sin é wrote:

I've explained to you before that if the PRO12 want to claim a TAX EXEMPTION (i.e., this means between 12.5%+ on the PRO12's earnings), it is a legal requirement that the majority of directors are Irish and resident in Ireland.

And the cause of this - Pro12 run in Ireland for Ireland.

Two people in that group have a vote - Garrett Fitzgerald (Munster CEO, representing the 4x Irish Provinces - it seems to rotate - Mick Dawson of Leinster was on it last year) and Philip Browne (IRFU CEO) - similar to Wales having Mark Davies (RRW) and Roger Lewis (WRU). Gerald Davies (Welsh nominee is non-voting Chairman - having taken over from Andy Irvine (I think). They rotate the chairmanship between the different countries.


And what do the board of directors vote on? You think John Hussey and Conor O'Brien are there just to make the coffee?

Open your eyes for goodness sake.

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Post by Sin é Thu 23 Jul 2015, 3:37 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Id like you to tell me what decisions each of those directors have taken to adversely affect the regions

The administrators of the league take on all different tasks from appointment of referees / TMOs to writing the policies of tendering for the Final to arranging the fixtures. Between all of these decisions and more, you can rest assured that the Irish will be taken care of by their 8 Irish based Directors. You only have to look at the fixtures to see this.

Interesting though that the Scottish Tournament Director (formerly CEO of Glasgow) choose Ravenhill to hold the final. Shocking that he seems to be working in the best interests of the tournament.


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Post by Guest Thu 23 Jul 2015, 3:40 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:

I've explained to you before that if the PRO12 want to claim a TAX EXEMPTION (i.e., this means between 12.5%+ on the PRO12's earnings), it is a legal requirement that the majority of directors are Irish and resident in Ireland.

And the cause of this - Pro12 run in Ireland for Ireland.

Two people in that group have a vote - Garrett Fitzgerald (Munster CEO, representing the 4x Irish Provinces - it seems to rotate - Mick Dawson of Leinster was on it last year) and Philip Browne (IRFU CEO) - similar to Wales having Mark Davies (RRW) and Roger Lewis (WRU). Gerald Davies (Welsh nominee is non-voting Chairman - having taken over from Andy Irvine (I think). They rotate the chairmanship between the different countries.


And what do the board of directors vote on? You think John Hussey and Conor O'Brien are there just to make the coffee?

Open your eyes for goodness sake.

The ones that can vote being those eight made up of two Welsh, two Irish, two Italians and two Scots....

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Post by Sin é Thu 23 Jul 2015, 3:49 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:

I've explained to you before that if the PRO12 want to claim a TAX EXEMPTION (i.e., this means between 12.5%+ on the PRO12's earnings), it is a legal requirement that the majority of directors are Irish and resident in Ireland.

And the cause of this - Pro12 run in Ireland for Ireland.

Two people in that group have a vote - Garrett Fitzgerald (Munster CEO, representing the 4x Irish Provinces - it seems to rotate - Mick Dawson of Leinster was on it last year) and Philip Browne (IRFU CEO) - similar to Wales having Mark Davies (RRW) and Roger Lewis (WRU). Gerald Davies (Welsh nominee is non-voting Chairman - having taken over from Andy Irvine (I think). They rotate the chairmanship between the different countries.


And what do the board of directors vote on? You think John Hussey and Conor O'Brien are there just to make the coffee?

Open your eyes for goodness sake.

I'd imagine Conor O'Brien is there because of his financial expertise gained working for a not for profit organisation (IRFU) to deal with the regulatory requirements with regard to the tax exemption.

I'd imagine John Hussey (former IRFU President) is there to make up the numbers of Irish directors to avail of the TAX EXEMPTION.
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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 23 Jul 2015, 3:52 pm

Sin é wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Id like you to tell me what decisions each of those directors have taken to adversely affect the regions

The administrators of the league take on all different tasks from appointment of referees / TMOs to writing the policies of tendering for the Final to arranging the fixtures. Between all of these decisions and more, you can rest assured that the Irish will be taken care of by their 8 Irish based Directors. You only have to look at the fixtures to see this.

Interesting though that the Scottish Tournament Director (formerly CEO of Glasgow) choose Ravenhill to hold the final. Shocking that he seems to be working in the best interests of the tournament.



You think 1 person gets to choose where the final is held? Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

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Post by Sin é Thu 23 Jul 2015, 3:54 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Id like you to tell me what decisions each of those directors have taken to adversely affect the regions

The administrators of the league take on all different tasks from appointment of referees / TMOs to writing the policies of tendering for the Final to arranging the fixtures. Between all of these decisions and more, you can rest assured that the Irish will be taken care of by their 8 Irish based Directors. You only have to look at the fixtures to see this.

Interesting though that the Scottish Tournament Director (formerly CEO of Glasgow) choose Ravenhill to hold the final. Shocking that he seems to be working in the best interests of the tournament.



You think 1 person gets to choose where the final is held?  Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

As Tournament Director, I'd expect that he has a major say in where the final is held. Its his job thats on the line Wink
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Post by marty2086 Thu 23 Jul 2015, 3:56 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Id like you to tell me what decisions each of those directors have taken to adversely affect the regions

The administrators of the league take on all different tasks from appointment of referees / TMOs to writing the policies of tendering for the Final to arranging the fixtures. Between all of these decisions and more, you can rest assured that the Irish will be taken care of by their 8 Irish based Directors. You only have to look at the fixtures to see this.

So which directors made those decisions?

So the tournament director David Jordan, the former CEO of Glasgow Warriors, who oversaw the Strategic Review of the competition that led to last years final being held in Belfast and was won by Glasgow is in favour of Irish teams?

The man in charge of referees is English if Im not mistaken or is he a puppet put in place to conceal this master plan?

Considering this conspiracy is on going you think they'd have got some new Irish directors in since the old ones made a balls of last season and Glasgow won the bloody thing and the only Irish provinces to win the league recently have been Leinster and Munster when they've pretty much been the best teams in Europe

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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 23 Jul 2015, 4:09 pm

These have just turned into flippant remarks and fantastical retorts. You know it's loaded towards the Irish. I have just proved it's loaded towards the Irish. It's just a waiting game now.

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Post by Notch Thu 23 Jul 2015, 4:13 pm

It's amazing how one person can be so married to his biases he is immune to all forms of reasoned argument.
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Post by marty2086 Thu 23 Jul 2015, 4:24 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:These have just turned into flippant remarks and fantastical retorts. You know it's loaded towards the Irish. I have just proved it's loaded towards the Irish. It's just a waiting game now.

How have you proved anything? You say its loaded towards the Irish yet a Scottish team won it last year

You say the officials favour the Irish yet the worst(most controversial) decision came from a Welsh official, in favour of a Welsh team against an Irish team

http://www.the42.ie/connacht-pat-lam-1978519-Mar2015/

You've been asked to back up your claims and the best you can come up with is 8 Irish directors and a head office in Dublin without telling us what influence these directors have had on decisions at any stage.

The issue isn't corruption but your dislike of the Pro12 and the regions inability to sustain success

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Post by Guest Thu 23 Jul 2015, 5:24 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:These have just turned into flippant remarks and fantastical retorts. You know it's loaded towards the Irish. I have just proved it's loaded towards the Irish. It's just a waiting game now.

Well, yes, but not from us. Just admit that you got it wrong. It's ok to be wrong sometimes Hug

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Post by LondonTiger Thu 23 Jul 2015, 6:13 pm

Ah yes, reacting to the paranoid conspiracy theorist with condescension is always likely to be a wise response.

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Post by Guest Thu 23 Jul 2015, 7:58 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Ah yes, reacting to the paranoid conspiracy theorist with condescension is always likely to be a wise response.

Oh the irony, but I'm guessing you won't get it.

P.s My comment wasn't condescending. It was banter and I expect Chunky will recognise it as banter.

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Post by Fanster Thu 23 Jul 2015, 9:18 pm

Marty

That post match interview was disgracefull, and made Lam look like a petulant child. He should've received ban for acting like a football manager and not a respectfull rugby coach!

For every point he raises there is always a counter argument, not to mention an opposing incident during the match that could be argued the other way around.

The thing is when you go against referee's you cannot win, there is no viewing things in true or false, it's the rules or the interpretation, and neither will change for one petty little child!

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Post by LondonTiger Thu 23 Jul 2015, 9:41 pm

Munchkin wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Ah yes, reacting to the paranoid conspiracy theorist with condescension is always likely to be a wise response.

Oh the irony, but I'm guessing you won't get it.

P.s My comment wasn't condescending. It was banter and I expect Chunky will recognise it as banter.

True because I am too fick.

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Post by Guest Thu 23 Jul 2015, 10:34 pm

Fanster wrote:Marty

That post match interview was disgracefull, and made Lam look like a petulant child. He should've received ban for acting like a football manager and not a respectfull rugby coach!

For every point he raises there is always a counter argument, not to mention an opposing incident during the match that could be argued the other way around.

The thing is when you go against referee's you cannot win, there is no viewing things in true or false, it's the rules or the interpretation, and neither will change for one petty little child!

I don't think that was marty's point. The point was, I think, that we hear so much from a few Welsh posters, across different social media sites, about Irish ref's being corrupt and about the PRO12 being corrupted by the Irish, yet if those same posters looked a little closer to home they would find that Welsh officiating of some games could equally be held up for criticism and scorn by fans of the Provinces. Sometimes they are, but without the pathetic claims of conspiracy. So even though we could equally share the same basis for claims of a conspiracy, we don't.

Coaches have a right to be angry, and they have a right to voice their concerns at any perceived injustice by a ref. How it's done is important. Lam shouldn't have went public with his claim, instead of going through the proper process. Maybe Lam did go through the proper process but without satisfaction. I don't know.
I tend not to criticise ref's but ref's performances should be scrutinised and they should be penalised if found guilty of deliberately being one-sided in a game, or simply below standard in their officiating of a game.

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Post by LondonTiger Fri 24 Jul 2015, 9:17 am

Surely if found guilty of "deliberately being one-sided" they should be struck off and never ref again.

Refs are scrutinised. No idea how it works in Pro12 but in AP it goes as follows:

1) Teams fill in a report card on the ref
2) Referee assessor at every game, also fills in report card
3) Refs meet up (weekly I think) with assessors and ehad of refs to review match footage of decisions, especially contentious ones.
4) Refs graded according to performance and ranked.
5) Under-performing refs given help to improve and sometimes dropped down a level.

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Post by marty2086 Fri 24 Jul 2015, 9:17 am

Munchkin wrote:
Fanster wrote:Marty

That post match interview was disgracefull, and made Lam look like a petulant child. He should've received ban for acting like a football manager and not a respectfull rugby coach!

For every point he raises there is always a counter argument, not to mention an opposing incident during the match that could be argued the other way around.

The thing is when you go against referee's you cannot win, there is no viewing things in true or false, it's the rules or the interpretation, and neither will change for one petty little child!

I don't think that was marty's point. The point was, I think, that we hear so much from a few Welsh posters, across different social media sites, about Irish ref's being corrupt and about the PRO12 being corrupted by the Irish, yet if those same posters looked a little closer to home they would find that Welsh officiating of some games could equally be held up for criticism and scorn by fans of the Provinces. Sometimes they are, but without the pathetic claims of conspiracy. So even though we could equally share the same basis for claims of a conspiracy, we don't.

Coaches have a right to be angry, and they have a right to voice their concerns at any perceived injustice by a ref. How it's done is important. Lam shouldn't have went public with his claim, instead of going through the proper process. Maybe Lam did go through the proper process but without satisfaction. I don't know.
I tend not to criticise ref's but ref's performances should be scrutinised and they should be penalised if found guilty of deliberately being one-sided in a game, or simply below standard in their officiating of a game.

That was exactly my point, some Welsh posters like to mention Marshall Kilgore as TMO at Ravenhill yet have never shown he's made a clear call in favour of Ulster. When some of the poor calls in other leagues are pointed out apparently Pro12 is worse...well just because

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Post by LondonTiger Fri 24 Jul 2015, 9:29 am

TBF it is not just Welsh posters who level accusations at officials from other countries. Over the years on here there has been a lot of noise from English, Irish, Kiwi and Saffer posters bemoaning corrupt or incompetent officials.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Fri 24 Jul 2015, 9:31 am

marty2086 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Fanster wrote:Marty

That post match interview was disgracefull, and made Lam look like a petulant child. He should've received ban for acting like a football manager and not a respectfull rugby coach!

For every point he raises there is always a counter argument, not to mention an opposing incident during the match that could be argued the other way around.

The thing is when you go against referee's you cannot win, there is no viewing things in true or false, it's the rules or the interpretation, and neither will change for one petty little child!

I don't think that was marty's point. The point was, I think, that we hear so much from a few Welsh posters, across different social media sites, about Irish ref's being corrupt and about the PRO12 being corrupted by the Irish, yet if those same posters looked a little closer to home they would find that Welsh officiating of some games could equally be held up for criticism and scorn by fans of the Provinces. Sometimes they are, but without the pathetic claims of conspiracy. So even though we could equally share the same basis for claims of a conspiracy, we don't.

Coaches have a right to be angry, and they have a right to voice their concerns at any perceived injustice by a ref. How it's done is important. Lam shouldn't have went public with his claim, instead of going through the proper process. Maybe Lam did go through the proper process but without satisfaction. I don't know.
I tend not to criticise ref's but ref's performances should be scrutinised and they should be penalised if found guilty of deliberately being one-sided in a game, or simply below standard in their officiating of a game.

That was exactly my point, some Welsh posters like to mention Marshall Kilgore as TMO at Ravenhill yet have never shown he's made a clear call in favour of Ulster. When some of the poor calls in other leagues are pointed out apparently Pro12 is worse...well just because

Didn't the citing commission and panel pretty much do that, when they banned Roger Wilson for an offense that was cleared via TMO during the game?

Also why so many Irish posters using its 'some Welsh posters' nonsense?
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Post by Fanster Fri 24 Jul 2015, 9:33 am

Lets be honest, Refs are scrutinised, pretty heavily both officially and unofficially.

I hate the whinging mentallity, there are very few cases of refs ruining a game, or deciding the outcome, I can think of 2 occasions only where a ref has hands down ruined a contest or handed one team the win.

If thats the case in thousands of hours of rugby watched then theyre doing a pretty good job.

My gripe is when people aid the footballisation of rugby, where they want to win / progress in their career / get in the media and step on the sport to do so.

With regards to Pro 12 refs, and TMO's, it's similar to the RWC, take the issue of bias out of the equation and the question is gone, If Chunky has issue with Irish refs reffing Irish games then take the Irish refs from Irish games, If Lam has an issue with Welsh refs reffing Welsh teams then take the Welsh refs from Welsh games (and also ban Lam btw).

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Fri 24 Jul 2015, 9:33 am

LondonTiger wrote:TBF it is not just Welsh posters who level accusations at officials from other countries. Over the years on here there has been a lot of noise from English, Irish, Kiwi and Saffer posters bemoaning corrupt or incompetent officials.

+1.

The thing is this argument has gotten tot he point where both sides are pretty much looking for something to take offence to.
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Post by Fanster Fri 24 Jul 2015, 9:35 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:TBF it is not just Welsh posters who level accusations at officials from other countries. Over the years on here there has been a lot of noise from English, Irish, Kiwi and Saffer posters bemoaning corrupt or incompetent officials.

+1.

The thing is this argument has gotten tot he point where both sides are pretty much looking for something to take offence to.

I take offence to this, I'm not looking to get offended but you definately offended me for suggesting so...


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Post by marty2086 Fri 24 Jul 2015, 9:42 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Fanster wrote:Marty

That post match interview was disgracefull, and made Lam look like a petulant child. He should've received ban for acting like a football manager and not a respectfull rugby coach!

For every point he raises there is always a counter argument, not to mention an opposing incident during the match that could be argued the other way around.

The thing is when you go against referee's you cannot win, there is no viewing things in true or false, it's the rules or the interpretation, and neither will change for one petty little child!

I don't think that was marty's point. The point was, I think, that we hear so much from a few Welsh posters, across different social media sites, about Irish ref's being corrupt and about the PRO12 being corrupted by the Irish, yet if those same posters looked a little closer to home they would find that Welsh officiating of some games could equally be held up for criticism and scorn by fans of the Provinces. Sometimes they are, but without the pathetic claims of conspiracy. So even though we could equally share the same basis for claims of a conspiracy, we don't.

Coaches have a right to be angry, and they have a right to voice their concerns at any perceived injustice by a ref. How it's done is important. Lam shouldn't have went public with his claim, instead of going through the proper process. Maybe Lam did go through the proper process but without satisfaction. I don't know.
I tend not to criticise ref's but ref's performances should be scrutinised and they should be penalised if found guilty of deliberately being one-sided in a game, or simply below standard in their officiating of a game.

That was exactly my point, some Welsh posters like to mention Marshall Kilgore as TMO at Ravenhill yet have never shown he's made a clear call in favour of Ulster. When some of the poor calls in other leagues are pointed out apparently Pro12 is worse...well just because

Didn't the citing commission and panel pretty much do that, when they banned Roger Wilson for an offense that was cleared via TMO during the game?

Also why so many Irish posters using its 'some Welsh posters' nonsense?

No that was the Welsh ref who cleared it and said there was nothing in it for him, a decision that was made by the same citing panel that said Luke Marshall deliberately kicked a Scarlets player in the head

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Fri 24 Jul 2015, 9:52 am

marty2086 wrote:No that was the Welsh ref who cleared it and said there was nothing in it for him, a decision that was made by the same citing panel that said Luke Marshall deliberately kicked a Scarlets player in the head

Ben Whitehouse was the ref. And yes there was a consultation between him and Kilgore about the incident. However you did say that there has not been any issue with Kilgore showing any advantage to Ulster, and I just shown a situation where there could well have been an advantage shown, as the player was later banned.

To be honest, I am tired as hell of trying to converse with Ulster fans, as it always descends into a bitch-fest. It is either Liam Williams is scum, Nick Williams is scum, Marshal Kilgore is a cheat, or Scarlets fans whinge too much about the ref..........But to be honest I think if there were Scarlets fans and Ulster fans on a thread and the topic was that breathing was a good thing to do, there would end up being a huge barney about it.
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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 24 Jul 2015, 10:16 am

marty2086 wrote:

That was exactly my point, some Welsh posters like to mention Marshall Kilgore as TMO at Ravenhill yet have never shown he's made a clear call in favour of Ulster. When some of the poor calls in other leagues are pointed out apparently Pro12 is worse...well just because

Marshall Kilgore regularly cheats us out of any points in Belfast. He did so in 2011 when Graham Knox was refereeing and the Scarlets complained to the Pro12 about the standard of officiating in that match.

He also awarded Ulster a try last season when there was not one shred of evidence that the ball was anywhere near beign grounded over the line. He is a cheat. An Ulster cheat.

But my favourite decision go against us in Ireland is this one by Neil Patterson the Irish, sorry Scottish referee. 30 seconds left on the clock - Scarlets 6 points down, Andy Fenby does an awesome sidestep and outwits the Munster defenderto make it a 2 on 1 for a 7 pointer to win the game- but the Munster player sticks out a leg and trips him. What does the referee do? Red card and penalty try? Nope - penalty Munster - full time.

Aviva Prem fixtures announced today - Pro12 to follow suit? - Page 8 Esq93p

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Fri 24 Jul 2015, 10:21 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

That was exactly my point, some Welsh posters like to mention Marshall Kilgore as TMO at Ravenhill yet have never shown he's made a clear call in favour of Ulster. When some of the poor calls in other leagues are pointed out apparently Pro12 is worse...well just because

Marshall Kilgore regularly cheats us out of any points in Belfast. He did so in 2011 when Graham Knox was refereeing and the Scarlets complained to the Pro12 about the standard of officiating in that match.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/12953074
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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 24 Jul 2015, 10:22 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/12953074

So.......he doesn't know the laws of the only job he has. Or is he a cheat?

My money is on both.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 24 Jul 2015, 10:27 am

That looks a yellow card for sure. How close was he to the line as it looks as though there's 2 players there about to make the tackle. Personally I think there's too much sour grapes drunk in regards to refs. Easy to pick out 1 or 2 mistakes and cry about it; from all sides.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Fri 24 Jul 2015, 10:34 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:That looks a yellow card for sure. How close was he to the line as it looks as though there's 2 players there about to make the tackle. Personally I think there's too much sour grapes drunk in regards to refs. Easy to pick out 1 or 2 mistakes and cry about it; from all sides.

The issue was at the time the TMO was not allowed to comment on the build up to the try, but purely the grounding. Yet the ref was told the ball was knocked on in the build up to the try, and to disallow it.

You are right though, things never get dropped and it seems every new debate is turn into a ground to continue old arguments, as oppose to debating the topic at hand.
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Post by Notch Fri 24 Jul 2015, 10:42 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

That was exactly my point, some Welsh posters like to mention Marshall Kilgore as TMO at Ravenhill yet have never shown he's made a clear call in favour of Ulster. When some of the poor calls in other leagues are pointed out apparently Pro12 is worse...well just because

Marshall Kilgore regularly cheats us out of any points in Belfast. He did so in 2011 when Graham Knox was refereeing and the Scarlets complained to the Pro12 about the standard of officiating in that match.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/12953074

So the problem is that a try has been disallowed due to a legitimate knock-on. If played today, the decision would be valid as the TMO can now advise on anything. At best, you're arguing on the right decision being reached in the wrong way- the TMOs intervention preventing a non-try being mistakenly awarded.
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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 24 Jul 2015, 10:44 am

Time and time again, Kilgore is the common denominator.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 24 Jul 2015, 10:50 am

Sorry was looking at the trip Scarlet.

In regards to the TMO there needs to be more definitive rules overall. I've seen a couple of instances where the TMO has been asked for a specific thing grounding etc but then pointed out something else. Given the rules are there to support the ref it's still a bit of a grey area. I've now seen instances where the ref has said fair enough we'll go back and also where he's asked the TMO to look purely at what was asked. I can see both have valid points; direction from world rugby is needed imo.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Fri 24 Jul 2015, 11:01 am

Notch, whether there was a knock on or not, and whether it would be allowed for a TMO to give the ruling now or not, does not matter. The fact is that it was not allowed back then. Kilgore told the ref that it was not a try, when he was not in a position to do so. And in doing that he did give Ulster the advantage that he should not have done. If that try had stood, as it should have, then Ulster would have lost the match.

No7&1/2, the TMO and refs do need to work better in unison. But it is an evolving thing, and it seems to be improving IMO. The communication between the two seems to be the issue now, but that has also been an issue with refs and linesmen etc in the past too.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 24 Jul 2015, 11:07 am

Your first and second points marry up though. Strictly speaking the right decision was met in the wrong manner. Bit like the SA match a couple of years ago when the ref watched a replay on the screen.

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Post by Sin é Fri 24 Jul 2015, 11:25 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

That was exactly my point, some Welsh posters like to mention Marshall Kilgore as TMO at Ravenhill yet have never shown he's made a clear call in favour of Ulster. When some of the poor calls in other leagues are pointed out apparently Pro12 is worse...well just because

Marshall Kilgore regularly cheats us out of any points in Belfast. He did so in 2011 when Graham Knox was refereeing and the Scarlets complained to the Pro12 about the standard of officiating in that match.

He also awarded Ulster a try last season when there was not one shred of evidence that the ball was anywhere near beign grounded over the line. He is a cheat. An Ulster cheat.

But my favourite decision go against us in Ireland is this one by Neil Patterson the Irish, sorry Scottish referee. 30 seconds left on the clock - Scarlets 6 points down, Andy Fenby does an awesome sidestep and outwits the Munster defenderto make it a 2 on 1 for a 7 pointer to win the game- but the Munster player sticks out a leg and trips him. What does the referee do? Red card and penalty try? Nope - penalty Munster - full time.

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Before a penalty try is awarded, isn't there a requirement that it was likely that a try would have been scored.
That doesn't look he was going to score there - he was just about to offload to a Munster player.
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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 24 Jul 2015, 11:28 am

Sin é wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

That was exactly my point, some Welsh posters like to mention Marshall Kilgore as TMO at Ravenhill yet have never shown he's made a clear call in favour of Ulster. When some of the poor calls in other leagues are pointed out apparently Pro12 is worse...well just because

Marshall Kilgore regularly cheats us out of any points in Belfast. He did so in 2011 when Graham Knox was refereeing and the Scarlets complained to the Pro12 about the standard of officiating in that match.

He also awarded Ulster a try last season when there was not one shred of evidence that the ball was anywhere near beign grounded over the line. He is a cheat. An Ulster cheat.

But my favourite decision go against us in Ireland is this one by Neil Patterson the Irish, sorry Scottish referee. 30 seconds left on the clock - Scarlets 6 points down, Andy Fenby does an awesome sidestep and outwits the Munster defenderto make it a 2 on 1 for a 7 pointer to win the game- but the Munster player sticks out a leg and trips him. What does the referee do? Red card and penalty try? Nope - penalty Munster - full time.

Aviva Prem fixtures announced today - Pro12 to follow suit? - Page 8 Esq93p

Before a penalty try is awarded, isn't there a requirement that it was likely that a try would have been scored.
That doesn't look he was going to score there - he was just about to offload to a Munster player.

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

Let me guess, Andy Fenby kicked the Munster players leg and should have been banned for 5 weeks?

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Post by Sin é Fri 24 Jul 2015, 11:32 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

That was exactly my point, some Welsh posters like to mention Marshall Kilgore as TMO at Ravenhill yet have never shown he's made a clear call in favour of Ulster. When some of the poor calls in other leagues are pointed out apparently Pro12 is worse...well just because

Marshall Kilgore regularly cheats us out of any points in Belfast. He did so in 2011 when Graham Knox was refereeing and the Scarlets complained to the Pro12 about the standard of officiating in that match.

He also awarded Ulster a try last season when there was not one shred of evidence that the ball was anywhere near beign grounded over the line. He is a cheat. An Ulster cheat.

But my favourite decision go against us in Ireland is this one by Neil Patterson the Irish, sorry Scottish referee. 30 seconds left on the clock - Scarlets 6 points down, Andy Fenby does an awesome sidestep and outwits the Munster defenderto make it a 2 on 1 for a 7 pointer to win the game- but the Munster player sticks out a leg and trips him. What does the referee do? Red card and penalty try? Nope - penalty Munster - full time.

Aviva Prem fixtures announced today - Pro12 to follow suit? - Page 8 Esq93p

Before a penalty try is awarded, isn't there a requirement that it was likely that a try would have been scored.
That doesn't look he was going to score there - he was just about to offload to a Munster player.

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

Let me guess, Andy Fenby kicked the Munster players leg and should have been banned for 5 weeks?

Nope. It should have been a penalty kick to Scarlets.
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Post by Guest Fri 24 Jul 2015, 11:37 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Fanster wrote:Marty

That post match interview was disgracefull, and made Lam look like a petulant child. He should've received ban for acting like a football manager and not a respectfull rugby coach!

For every point he raises there is always a counter argument, not to mention an opposing incident during the match that could be argued the other way around.

The thing is when you go against referee's you cannot win, there is no viewing things in true or false, it's the rules or the interpretation, and neither will change for one petty little child!

I don't think that was marty's point. The point was, I think, that we hear so much from a few Welsh posters, across different social media sites, about Irish ref's being corrupt and about the PRO12 being corrupted by the Irish, yet if those same posters looked a little closer to home they would find that Welsh officiating of some games could equally be held up for criticism and scorn by fans of the Provinces. Sometimes they are, but without the pathetic claims of conspiracy. So even though we could equally share the same basis for claims of a conspiracy, we don't.

Coaches have a right to be angry, and they have a right to voice their concerns at any perceived injustice by a ref. How it's done is important. Lam shouldn't have went public with his claim, instead of going through the proper process. Maybe Lam did go through the proper process but without satisfaction. I don't know.
I tend not to criticise ref's but ref's performances should be scrutinised and they should be penalised if found guilty of deliberately being one-sided in a game, or simply below standard in their officiating of a game.

That was exactly my point, some Welsh posters like to mention Marshall Kilgore as TMO at Ravenhill yet have never shown he's made a clear call in favour of Ulster. When some of the poor calls in other leagues are pointed out apparently Pro12 is worse...well just because

Didn't the citing commission and panel pretty much do that, when they banned Roger Wilson for an offense that was cleared via TMO during the game?

Also why so many Irish posters using its 'some Welsh posters' nonsense?

The nonsense is coming from 'some Welsh posters'. It is some Welsh posters coming up with this conspiracy nonsense. Not some Irish posters. That's the truth of it, Scarlets. I suppose I could say Welsh posters, but then some Welsh posters would complain that not all Welsh posters are conspiracy nuts. As they have done.......

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