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Irish big spenders.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 13 Jul 2015, 4:17 pm

First topic message reminder :

Well, after all the debating about salary caps and budgets, it looks as though ChunkyNorwich was right the Irish provinces are spending as much as the French teams, bar Connacht. This link makes for interesting reading:-

http://gwladrugby.com/?p=1493


Leinster have a budget of £8.75 million a year, or €10.55m. That is over twice what the Welsh regions get, £3 million more than what the English clubs get, and £150,000 more than the French clubs. How the feck can they afford to pay out that much ? And that is without outside investment, like Leinster will get for Sexton.

So, I was wrong, how the frigging hell are the Welsh regions supposed to compete with that ? How are the English supposed to compete with that ? The big Irish 3 are seriously under achieving with the budgets they get to work with. Never mind the French spending big bucks on players, the Irish have been doing it for ages.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue 14 Jul 2015, 2:50 pm

Sin é wrote:

Munster to host Pro12 Final next year.

I'd take that bet right now.

Although I have a feeling it will be in Scotland.

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Post by Sin é Tue 14 Jul 2015, 2:53 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:

Munster to host Pro12 Final next year.

I'd take that bet right now.

Although I have a feeling it will be in Scotland.

It won't be the Scots - would never put the cash up front (or enough of it anyway)!

Simon Thomas saying it I believe.
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Post by profitius Tue 14 Jul 2015, 2:54 pm

At the end of the day, how many big name foreign players have Irish teams signed. Remember they're only allowed to sign 4 or 5 non Irish players so you'd think if they were that wealthy they would be signing the likes of the Conrad Smiths, Nonus, Carters, Genias of the game. But thats not the case as we know.


Munchkin wrote:Possibly a €50 million Vodafone deal with Ireland.

Even more money for the wealthy Provinces, if that's confirmed  Very Happy  SuperRichIrelandRugby


It almost doubles the amount of money that 02/3 were paying which is nice but it might be needed in future as the clubs in France and England get richer. And thats what people have to take into account. The IRFU might have money in their account but thats needed to keep up with the French and potentially English clubs. Also, if they want to expand the aviva stadium €50m won't go too far and they shouldn't expect the FAI (who they've loaned money to) to contribute much because the FAI are financially up sh!te creek.


Not sure what the story is with the corporate boxes and 10 year ticket sales but they could be coming back on the market soon enough and could provide the IRFU with another cash boost, depending on demand.
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Post by Guest Tue 14 Jul 2015, 3:16 pm

profitius wrote:At the end of the day, how many big name foreign players have Irish teams signed. Remember they're only allowed to sign 4 or 5 non Irish players so you'd think if they were that wealthy they would be signing the likes of the Conrad Smiths, Nonus, Carters, Genias of the game. But thats not the case as we know.  


Munchkin wrote:Possibly a €50 million Vodafone deal with Ireland.

Even more money for the wealthy Provinces, if that's confirmed  Very Happy  SuperRichIrelandRugby


It almost doubles the amount of money that 02/3 were paying which is nice but it might be needed in future as the clubs in France and England get richer. And thats what people have to take into account. The IRFU might have money in their account but thats needed to keep up with the French and potentially English clubs. Also, if they want to expand the aviva stadium €50m won't go too far and they shouldn't expect the FAI (who they've loaned money to) to contribute much because the FAI are financially up sh!te creek.


Not sure what the story is with the corporate boxes and 10 year ticket sales but they could be coming back on the market soon enough and could provide the IRFU with another cash boost, depending on demand.

My comment about more money going to the Provinces was tongue in cheek. I completely agree that IRFU need to invest wisely in order to remain competitive with the French and English. The same goes for the Provinces. The Provinces have to do their bit in developing players from school age through to academy and beyond. We won't be able to maintain a challenge on the financial front alone, I believe, but we can continue to raise the standard from grassroots rugby and up, and hopefully through player development will continue to compete against the best.

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Post by Marshes Tue 14 Jul 2015, 3:43 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Weegie Wizard wrote:Chunky, I'm not too sure I agree with the first bit of that. Do you think the Welsh 6N success is because they don't pay enough attention to the regions?

Of course. The dice has been absolutely loaded towards the national team at the expense of the regions in the last 8 years. I'm surprised I'm having to explain that.

The Irish are very disciplined about not playing their national team players in too many province games for fear of burn out. International rugby seems to be the whole point for them (a priority I am totally on board with).

So if this is the case, should it not be the Irish who have been the most successful 6N team (maybe it is but I would have guessed Wales).

I would think the main reason Wales have been so successful is that they have had a very good and very settled coach and lots of very good and very settled players all at the same time.

I wouldn't say the players are settled. Far less so than in Ireland. Where they rarely move oversea.

In Wales it has all been about the national team. For far too long. Hopefully the new CEO and Chairman will change that now.

I think what Weggie Wizard was getting at was a more settled National Squad and coach for Wales (and a Blywdi good one) rather than one changing coaches or transitioning between generations. Anyway I don't know why credit should go to the WRU for focusing on the national team when I don't think the consciously managed it that way. The change in fortunes of the national teams (speaking solely about the 6N i guess) have shifted without any really seismic policy changes from the Union, so I attribute the success to the coach and players.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue 14 Jul 2015, 3:54 pm

Marshes wrote: The change in fortunes of the national teams (speaking solely about the 6N i guess) have shifted without any really seismic policy changes from the Union, so I attribute the success to the coach and players.

Absolute nonsense I'm afraid. You can just check the timelines. The regions started faltering around 2005/6.

There has been a consistent policy by the WRU to neglect (as much as possible within limitations) every facet of the game below the National side. They got found out in the end, with the chairman and CEO both leaving within a few months of each other. But at the height of their reign, the national side was riding high on Grand Slams with the media and the thicko public lapping it up - while the community league structure was in tatters and the underfunded regions were on the brink of collapse. To be honest, the apathy and general unwillingness to care about anything in Wales from the public other than get p1ssed and watch Wales 12 times a year means we got what we deserve. Trouble is, for those of us who spend our hard earned following club sides round the coutry and Europe every week - it was far from what we deserved.

A shameful black episode in Welsh rugby.

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Post by Marshes Tue 14 Jul 2015, 4:01 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Marshes wrote: The change in fortunes of the national teams (speaking solely about the 6N i guess) have shifted without any really seismic policy changes from the Union, so I attribute the success to the coach and players.

Absolute nonsense I'm afraid. You can just check the timelines. The regions started faltering around 2005/6.

There has been a consistent policy by the WRU to neglect (as much as possible within limitations) every facet of the game below the National side. They got found out in the end, with the chairman and CEO both leaving within a few months of each other. But at the height of their reign, the national side was riding high on Grand Slams with the media and the thicko public lapping it up - while the community league structure was in tatters and the underfunded regions were on the brink of collapse. To be honest, the apathy and general unwillingness to care about anything in Wales from the public other than get p1ssed and watch Wales 12 times a year means we got what we deserve. Trouble is, for those of us who spend our hard earned following club sides round the coutry and Europe every week - it was far from what we deserved.

A shameful black episode in Welsh rugby.

So what major reversal has changed to bring Ospreys back to the top of the Pro 12 and Wales not winning Grand Slams hand over fist? I think it's a bit of an error to lay it at the door of the WRU, and not give the coach and players of the national team their due

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue 14 Jul 2015, 4:11 pm

Marshes wrote:

So what major reversal has changed to bring Ospreys back to the top of the Pro 12 and Wales not winning Grand Slams hand over fist? I think it's a bit of an error to lay it at the door of the WRU, and not give the coach and players of the national team their due

Gatland has the greatest amount of time with his players out of any coach in test rugby. He's not a bad coach. He's done well.

But he has been given absolutely everything he wanted by the CEO - often at the expense of the domestic game (lack of player release, risking unfit players, a 4th international that cocks up the 3rd round of ERC games for the regions etc).

The doemstic rugby game in Wales has seen the biggest exodus of players from it's ranks since the rugby league times of the 1980s. And what did the CEO want to do to halt it? That's right - roll over the terms of the agreement for another 5 years. The man is a national disgrace. I hope I never meet him, as I would probably do something I'd regret.

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Post by Sin é Tue 14 Jul 2015, 4:34 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Marshes wrote:

So what major reversal has changed to bring Ospreys back to the top of the Pro 12 and Wales not winning Grand Slams hand over fist? I think it's a bit of an error to lay it at the door of the WRU, and not give the coach and players of the national team their due

Gatland has the greatest amount of time with his players out of any coach in test rugby. He's not a bad coach. He's done well.

But he has been given absolutely everything he wanted by the CEO - often at the expense of the domestic game (lack of player release, risking unfit players, a 4th international that cocks up the 3rd round of ERC games for the regions etc).

The doemstic rugby game in Wales has seen the biggest exodus of players from it's ranks since the rugby league times of the 1980s. And what did the CEO want to do to halt it? That's right - roll over the terms of the agreement for another 5 years. The man is a national disgrace. I hope I never meet him, as I would probably do something I'd regret.

It was the Regions drove the players out with uncertainty. Didn't Scarlets sell off George North to Northampton whether he liked it or not, not the WRU.

You will often find a lot of very good players will move to another club because they never see their own club being successful and they want to win a few trophies.
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Post by Marshes Tue 14 Jul 2015, 5:17 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Marshes wrote:

So what major reversal has changed to bring Ospreys back to the top of the Pro 12 and Wales not winning Grand Slams hand over fist? I think it's a bit of an error to lay it at the door of the WRU, and not give the coach and players of the national team their due

Gatland has the greatest amount of time with his players out of any coach in test rugby. He's not a bad coach. He's done well.

But he has been given absolutely everything he wanted by the CEO - often at the expense of the domestic game (lack of player release, risking unfit players, a 4th international that cocks up the 3rd round of ERC games for the regions etc).

The doemstic rugby game in Wales has seen the biggest exodus of players from it's ranks since the rugby league times of the 1980s. And what did the CEO want to do to halt it? That's right - roll over the terms of the agreement for another 5 years. The man is a national disgrace. I hope I never meet him, as I would probably do something I'd regret.

I think the exodus of players was down to the cha-ching contracts available to them in France and England (coincidentally not to the supposed makin'-it-rain Irish provinces, also notice the Irish players go to France for their paydays too). Being honest I don't know if there was a way to keep that quality of player the regions had with a money-pit like the Top 14 there. Dual contracts being introduced means more can be offered and hopefully retained, but it early evidence is not great. Tough to blame on one CEO (his crimes you list there seem minor), more often than not they are a scapegoat for the inadequacies of wider system.

Also, this guy seems to think all of the top 14 is a bit ahead of Leinster in player wages, which he puts at 10m (euros), which is self-evident from player choices we've seen:
http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/toulons-leinster-champions-cup-wages/21019


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Post by Sin é Tue 14 Jul 2015, 5:51 pm

The Provinces/IRFU are investing heavily in the Academies:

The IRFU have 32 staff and 75 players in the provincial academy. That is some investment. As well as that, the IRFU seem to be investing a fair bit in the women's game and also in 7s.

--------
Ulster: 9 staff, 18 in academy (not including sub academy here).
Connacht: 5 staff, 13 in Academy
Munster: 11 staff, 21 in academy (2 of staff work with sub academy with S&C
Leinster: 7 staff, 23 in academy
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Post by Cardiff Dave Tue 14 Jul 2015, 5:54 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Marshes wrote:

So what major reversal has changed to bring Ospreys back to the top of the Pro 12 and Wales not winning Grand Slams hand over fist? I think it's a bit of an error to lay it at the door of the WRU, and not give the coach and players of the national team their due

Gatland has the greatest amount of time with his players out of any coach in test rugby. He's not a bad coach. He's done well.

But he has been given absolutely everything he wanted by the CEO - often at the expense of the domestic game (lack of player release, risking unfit players, a 4th international that cocks up the 3rd round of ERC games for the regions etc).

The doemstic rugby game in Wales has seen the biggest exodus of players from it's ranks since the rugby league times of the 1980s. And what did the CEO want to do to halt it? That's right - roll over the terms of the agreement for another 5 years. The man is a national disgrace. I hope I never meet him, as I would probably do something I'd regret.

What I don't understand is why the 4 agreed to a 4th AI in the first place. Were they made an offer they couldn't refuse or something?

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