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Who will make it out of the fourth quarter?

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Total Votes : 10
 
Poll closed

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Post by YvonneT Mon 17 Aug 2015, 1:49 pm

First topic message reminder :

Full draw: http://www.protennislive.com/posting/2015/422/mds.pdf

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Post by Guest Fri 21 Aug 2015, 11:09 am

Weird how the H2H wasn't a much rated metric, now we want Fedal matches because Fed can return the favour to a hampered and out of sorts Nadal.

As much as I hate Frozen and never seen it, but let it go.

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Post by LuvSports! Fri 21 Aug 2015, 11:09 am

There seasons are pretty similar in the race though. 6-8 mark.

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Post by LuvSports! Fri 21 Aug 2015, 11:11 am

You have totally seen it LK. Wink

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Fri 21 Aug 2015, 11:15 am

LS, like I said, other than IW, Fed wasnt playing badly at Rome, Cincy and WTF. Remember, that year he reached final at Rome, QF in FO, QF in Cincy, final at Basel, SF in Paris and SF in WTF, hardly awful.


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Post by It Must Be Love Fri 21 Aug 2015, 11:17 am

Federer was injured in that Rome final I'm pretty sure

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Fri 21 Aug 2015, 11:19 am

^^Ha ha, Fed is super human, with injury he still could reach the final.

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Post by Guest Fri 21 Aug 2015, 11:19 am

LuvSports! wrote:You have totally seen it LK. Wink

I do feel like giving into temptation. Almost like toying with the dark side of the force! Wink

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Post by It Must Be Love Fri 21 Aug 2015, 11:21 am

Back injuries can flare up and die down within a week itself. He can be fine one day, and his back be hurting he next.

From what I saw his back seemed injured in that match.

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Post by LuvSports! Fri 21 Aug 2015, 11:35 am

Even if feds wasn't injured, he wouldn't have beaten rafa in that form. Rafa was on fire.
Feds had a dream draw that Rome week as well. JJ and Paire in qf and sf.

He still made it there when he wasn't at 2012 form. Rafa isn't doing the same.

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Post by bogbrush Fri 21 Aug 2015, 11:37 am

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Fed wasnt that awful in 2013 when he reached the final at Rome.  He also reached the final at Basel, SF at Paris, so he wasnt that awful when he met Rafa that year save for that IW encounter.

Can i say Rafa played awful vs Novak at MC and FO this year? Or awful vs Murray at Madrid too? Not forgetting those were on clay where Rafa was the king.
Yes, he was. And yes, you can. Nadal has been abysmal for ages.

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Post by temporary21 Fri 21 Aug 2015, 11:40 am

Hang on Murray won?! He was a set and double break down when I had to sleep...

I recall Fed missing three appointments with rafa at the US open (2010, 2011, and 2013), when it would have been very hard for fed to win so its swings and roundabouts. Besides I thought the H2H didnt matter at all?

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Post by lags72 Fri 21 Aug 2015, 11:55 am

Belovedluckyboy wrote:^^Ha ha, Fed is super human, with injury he still could reach the final.

I too found this a totally laughable assertion - ie the very notion that a top player could somehow make a Final, but then lose it not because his opponent was better on the day, but purely because of a perceived or alleged injury. Are there really fans who could possibly claim such a thing .....??

On the other hand ......... chin

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Post by HM Murdock Fri 21 Aug 2015, 12:00 pm

temporary21 wrote:Besides I thought the H2H didnt matter at all?
It's just pleasant to see its fallacies exposed before our very eyes.

If we can find a way to puncture the inflation of Olympic gold too, then I'll be satisfied.

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Post by Guest Fri 21 Aug 2015, 12:04 pm

I know the crumb of comfort for some Nadal fans in the GOAT argument is his H2H record against all players I might add and not just Federer, but still there seems a clambering for immediate Fedal matches in a bid to ignite the rivalry and add more balance to the numbers. The explanation for the one sided nature of it is the surface or Federer's fitness or form, now we want meetings because now the shoe might be on the other foot? Say it happened and Fedal met on HC or faster surfaces and Federer addresses the rivalry with some victories. Aren't we then falling into the trap that Nadal is now physically and mentally spent and thus not a true representation of the player?

Come on guys. Forget the H2H. I am sure Federer has. Right now what we have is one less player that Federer has to worry about. Based on results, if your a Federer fan, what a time to have Nadal in your draw when he isn't going so deep. There is every opportunity for Federer to make that 18th Slam and put even more daylight between him and his counterparts. Surely that metric is more important than the H2H?

As for Nadal fans, you can only hope for a Federer 2014 and Murray 2015 renaissance after they had previous poor seasons.

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Post by temporary21 Fri 21 Aug 2015, 12:05 pm

I really wish we wouldn't try to retro-actively devalue achievements of anybody really, especially when ones having a tough time. Ive never thought much of being actively happy seeing somebody losing either

More importantly than the usual, how on earth did Murray wiggle his way out the Dimi match?

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Post by Guest Fri 21 Aug 2015, 12:07 pm

Dimi like Goffin did a Private Pyle and choked themselves respectably.

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Post by temporary21 Fri 21 Aug 2015, 12:07 pm

Feds problem is Novak,

At Wimby he got to the final in 9 hours, which is nothing, and he looked gone after just 2 and a half sets.

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Post by It Must Be Love Fri 21 Aug 2015, 12:09 pm

lags72 wrote:
Belovedluckyboy wrote:^^Ha ha, Fed is super human, with injury he still could reach the final.

I too found this a totally laughable assertion - ie the very notion that a top player could somehow make a Final, but then lose it not because his opponent was better on the day, but purely because of a perceived or alleged injury. Are there really fans who could possibly claim such a thing .....??

On the other hand ......... chin

https://www.606v2.com/t55560-politically-correct-nonsense-while-talking-about-injuries

Nadal was better on the day ok... but Federer was injured as well. Not mutually exclusive.

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Post by temporary21 Fri 21 Aug 2015, 12:16 pm

These guys take responsibility for their own bodies, if you play, youre accepting that youre still good enough to have a chance to win. You cant then do a u turn and moan like you shouldnt have played it at all, you cant have it both ways, and to be fair the players themselves dont, its the youtube comments section that does.

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Post by HM Murdock Fri 21 Aug 2015, 12:17 pm

temporary21 wrote:Feds problem is Novak,

At Wimby he got to the final in 9 hours, which is nothing, and he looked gone after just 2 and a half sets.
Fed's problem is that he's 34.

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Post by temporary21 Fri 21 Aug 2015, 12:18 pm

Thats the same problem, Novak was also bullying him by the end of that match too.

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Post by lags72 Fri 21 Aug 2015, 12:24 pm

By way of very general comment, must say I'm genuinely surprised at the amount of analysis, armchair debate, and seemingly endless column inches devoted to the troubles of a former World No 1 who has not won a Slam this year, who has begun losing to guys who once struggled to take a set from him, and who has clearly fallen way below his peak. History tells us that all players deteriorate with age ; it was ever thus, and always will be.

Anyway, that's enough about Federer .........

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Fri 21 Aug 2015, 12:35 pm

LS, so Rafa is in worse off form now than Fed was in 2013 so how do you expect him to meet Fed often?

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Post by Guest Fri 21 Aug 2015, 12:47 pm

lags72 wrote:By way of very general comment, must say I'm genuinely surprised at the amount of analysis, armchair debate, and seemingly endless column inches devoted to the troubles of a former World No 1 who has not won a Slam this year, who has begun losing to guys who once struggled to take a set from him, and who has clearly fallen way below his peak. History tells us that all players deteriorate with age ; it was ever thus, and always will be.

Anyway, that's enough about Federer .........

Well both Masters threads became engulfed with the tribalism debate.

Hoping same doesn't happen at the US Open.

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Post by Born Slippy Fri 21 Aug 2015, 12:51 pm

Decent debate though. Good to see some discussion on the forum. Still reeling from the fact Rafa is apparently a risk taking master strategist but i guess everyone sees things differently!

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Post by LuvSports! Fri 21 Aug 2015, 1:07 pm

OK

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Post by bogbrush Fri 21 Aug 2015, 1:07 pm

legendkillarV2 wrote:I know the crumb of comfort for some Nadal fans in the GOAT argument is his H2H record against all players I might add and not just Federer, but still there seems a clambering for immediate Fedal matches in a bid to ignite the rivalry and add more balance to the numbers. The explanation for the one sided nature of it is the surface or Federer's fitness or form, now we want meetings because now the shoe might be on the other foot? Say it happened and Fedal met on HC or faster surfaces and Federer addresses the rivalry with some victories. Aren't we then falling into the trap that Nadal is now physically and mentally spent and thus not a true representation of the player?

Come on guys. Forget the H2H. I am sure Federer has. Right now what we have is one less player that Federer has to worry about. Based on results, if your a Federer fan, what a time to have Nadal in your draw when he isn't going so deep. There is every opportunity for Federer to make that 18th Slam and put even more daylight between him and his counterparts. Surely that metric is more important than the H2H?

As for Nadal fans, you can only hope for a Federer 2014 and Murray 2015 renaissance after they had previous poor seasons.
Personally I don't care, I just wanted it noted for the record that once again, when the situation favours a Federer win, the match doesn't happen while during Rafa's pomp and on his favourite surface Federer resolutely made the finals................... and that therefore the h2h debate is seriously messed up.

That said I would have like to see the match.
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Post by lags72 Fri 21 Aug 2015, 1:12 pm

Belovedluckyboy wrote:LS, so Rafa is in worse off form now than Fed was in  2013 so how do you expect him to meet Fed often?

I think that question would be better tackled by someone else - if only because the problem in addressing it to me is that I neither expect, nor particularly care, when - or even if - Rafa and Fed meet. The game itself is bigger than these two, and now in 2015 I'm much more interested in seeing some 'new' faces climb their way to the top. We need some fresh talent to make a mark on the Tour.

Next season Fed will turn 35, h2h's become less significant than ever at that sort of age, and he is of course already well into the career twilight zone. Plus, these days, as far as he himself is concerned (which is ultimately what really matters I guess !), I would put big money on him getting FAR more of a thrill spending time with his four kids than wondering if he will play/beat Rafa or not.

Now to Rafa : I refuse to believe, as so many others seem to, that he shows no sign of getting back to more big wins. I think he remains strongly motivated, and things can change quickly. Players do not necessarily need to sparkle in the run-up to Slams or to display impressive consistency over several months. Few of us predicted wins by Stan at the AO or Cilic at the USO, based on their previous form. And neither of those had the benefit of anything remotely resembling the wealth of experience on which Rafa can draw during his current trough.

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Post by temporary21 Fri 21 Aug 2015, 1:15 pm

Same thing for Fed with the US open, 2-8 could have been 2-11... but its all far too semantic and biased to get anywhere, might we all agree that theyre both pretty good, probably moreso than we yet realise?

Anyway, come the us open well keep it much more on topic than this week, im going nominal for my thesis soon so Ive been lazy on this front. After this week this should maybe go in the GOAT thread

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Post by HM Murdock Fri 21 Aug 2015, 1:22 pm

A gift Djokovic could give to Federer is to overhaul Rafa in their h2h (currently 23-21 to Rafa).

I suspect the "how can he be the best ever if he's not even the best in his own time?" argument would wither and die if Rafa had a losing h2h to a player the same age as him.

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Post by temporary21 Fri 21 Aug 2015, 1:24 pm

Thats still close though isnt it? and the gs h2h is very close too. The Fedal h2h is only noteworthy in how one sided it is, thats the shock.

edit: Damn it head of sky news! We need to roll this one down!

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Post by Henman Bill Fri 21 Aug 2015, 1:31 pm

I watched the first set of Federer last night and I think it was more a poor opponent than a good Federer. Fed strolled to a 5-0 lead in second gear without a single truly majestic shot. Just opponent giving him easy balls, missing shots, not serving particularly well, and making me question how on earth Anderson snuck up to no 15 in the rankings without me noticing.

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Post by Guest Fri 21 Aug 2015, 1:35 pm

bogbrush wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:I know the crumb of comfort for some Nadal fans in the GOAT argument is his H2H record against all players I might add and not just Federer, but still there seems a clambering for immediate Fedal matches in a bid to ignite the rivalry and add more balance to the numbers. The explanation for the one sided nature of it is the surface or Federer's fitness or form, now we want meetings because now the shoe might be on the other foot? Say it happened and Fedal met on HC or faster surfaces and Federer addresses the rivalry with some victories. Aren't we then falling into the trap that Nadal is now physically and mentally spent and thus not a true representation of the player?

Come on guys. Forget the H2H. I am sure Federer has. Right now what we have is one less player that Federer has to worry about. Based on results, if your a Federer fan, what a time to have Nadal in your draw when he isn't going so deep. There is every opportunity for Federer to make that 18th Slam and put even more daylight between him and his counterparts. Surely that metric is more important than the H2H?

As for Nadal fans, you can only hope for a Federer 2014 and Murray 2015 renaissance after they had previous poor seasons.
Personally I don't care, I just wanted it noted for the record that once again, when the situation favours a Federer win, the match doesn't happen while during Rafa's pomp and on his favourite surface Federer resolutely made the finals................... and that therefore the h2h debate is seriously messed up.

That said I would have like to see the match.

That's the thing with any debate. It requires context.

There's a chap on a forum (can't remember which one) but his signature is something like "Luke has the better H2H, but Vader is the GOAT"

I agree with that paradox.

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Post by temporary21 Fri 21 Aug 2015, 1:37 pm

Yeah but Darth Vader buffed his stats by taking on loads of little children, Luke only had the best to compete against
Rolling Eyes

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Post by Henman Bill Fri 21 Aug 2015, 1:37 pm

An interesting stat about Novak Djokovic is that he has only failed to reach the final of a tournament once this year, and even then, losing in the QF to Ivo Karlovic at Doha, I see he almost won in straights before losing the second set TB 9-7 or 8-6 (sources differ).

Since that was the first match of the season, he could make his 10th consecutive final here at Cincinatti. Impressive stuff.

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Post by Guest Fri 21 Aug 2015, 1:40 pm

temporary21 wrote:Yeah but Darth Vader  buffed his stats by taking on loads of little children, Luke only had the best to compete against
Rolling Eyes  

The best? A guy in late in his prime! Rolling Eyes

I take it you have read the comics that depicts the time between Episode III and IV in which Darth goes on a tear. I am sure his stats are better without the younglings.

Context dear boy!

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Post by Henman Bill Fri 21 Aug 2015, 1:41 pm

Hang on the head to head between Luke and Vader is 1-1.

I think I worked out that by comparing all the head to heads Mace Windu is the GOAT. It was some years ago that I watched the movies but I think the emperor kicks massive ass fighting against several people all at once and also manages a draw with Yoda, but Mace Windu, Samuel L Jackson's character, fights about several people at once including the Emperor without losing, and only dies because of some cheap trick against him (I forget what).

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Post by temporary21 Fri 21 Aug 2015, 1:47 pm

Yeah he was tired in the semi final against vader and came into the emperor match injured.

Besides the extended universe are just minor tournies, should we include the fanfics as well?

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Post by Guest Fri 21 Aug 2015, 2:03 pm

When Darth/Anakin had the highest midichlorian count of any Jedi/Sith which is why I think he was anointed the GOAT amongst the Star Wars universe.

I say read the expanded universe. It's quite intriguing.

TBH I think Sidious had Windu.

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Post by bogbrush Fri 21 Aug 2015, 2:26 pm

Henman Bill wrote:Hang on the head to head between Luke and Vader is 1-1.

I think I worked out that by comparing all the head to heads Mace Windu is the GOAT. It was some years ago that I watched the movies but I think the emperor kicks massive ass fighting against several people all at once and also manages a draw with Yoda, but Mace Windu, Samuel L Jackson's character, fights about several people at once including the Emperor without losing, and only dies because of some cheap trick against him (I forget what).
Annakin Skywalker chopped his hands off before he could despatch Sideous, who then zapped him off the building with a big cheap shot.

I agree, Windu owned him. I wish wish he'd given Sideous the whole "path of the righteous man..." thing when he had him down.
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Post by Guest Fri 21 Aug 2015, 2:33 pm

bogbrush wrote:
Henman Bill wrote:Hang on the head to head between Luke and Vader is 1-1.

I think I worked out that by comparing all the head to heads Mace Windu is the GOAT. It was some years ago that I watched the movies but I think the emperor kicks massive ass fighting against several people all at once and also manages a draw with Yoda, but Mace Windu, Samuel L Jackson's character, fights about several people at once including the Emperor without losing, and only dies because of some cheap trick against him (I forget what).
Annakin Skywalker chopped his hands off before he could despatch Sideous, who then zapped him off the building with a big cheap shot.

I agree, Windu owned him. I wish wish he'd given Sideous the whole "path of the righteous man..." thing when he had him down.

It was risky and was a clean winner! Wink

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Post by bogbrush Fri 21 Aug 2015, 2:43 pm

Sideous = Rafa
Yoda = Fabrice Santoro
Vader = Djokovic (with gluten breathing issues)
Mace Windu = Federer (beaten by dirty tricks Wink )
Darth Maul = Murray (DHBH)

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Post by Henman Bill Fri 21 Aug 2015, 2:57 pm

Yoda is very old and seems to end his life forgotten and without much wealth so he should be Pancho Gonzalez or Bill Tilden.

Djokovic was under the spell of Rafa before eventually coming to his senses and realizing his superior ability and picking him up and throwing him down in 2011, so that one works.

Federer is almost is suave and cool as Samuel L Jackson, so I'll give you that one.

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Post by temporary21 Fri 21 Aug 2015, 2:59 pm

No Federer as Yoda or Nadal as Emperor? Making Luke Novak and Murray mace Windu.

Darth Maul is the Titus Bramble of Jedi, he can be berdych

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Post by Guest Fri 21 Aug 2015, 3:02 pm

I'd say:

Sidious - Nadal (strategic)
Yoda - Federer (genius)
Vader - Djokovic (good all rounder)
Obi Wan - Murray (defensive)

Others
Mace Windu - Borg (taken out in his prime)
Count Dooku - Santoro (nifty swordsman)
Qui Gon Jinn - Agassi (original defender)
Darth Maul - Hewitt (overtaken by the new breed)

Special Mention
Jar Jar Binks - Kyrgios (annoying little c***!)

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Post by banbrotam Fri 21 Aug 2015, 3:07 pm

[quote="hawkeye"]
banbrotam wrote: From what I've seen of Djokovic and Murray they are doing what they are best at... putting the ball in play and waiting for other players to self destruct


Apart from if you're Karlovic, isn't that the objective of the game, i.e. a mental battle? Aren't you also being a little bit disrespectful to Andy and Novak?

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Post by break_in_the_fifth Fri 21 Aug 2015, 3:16 pm

I always thought of Murray as Anakin, the annoying teenager that was hard to like but with potential to be better than all of them. In that model it's fitting that Nadal is Sideous as Murray chose the physical route rather than the skills route. Federer could be Obi-Wan but with more skills as he did try to tell Murray early on in his career but he didn't want to listen to him. Djokovic could be Mace Windu maybe as he had Nadal beaten at the French open in 2013 but made a stupid mistake.

Not sure though Federer is better than Obi Wan and not sure Djokovic is as good as Mace Windu, though maybe... Laver is Yoda...

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Post by hawkeye Fri 21 Aug 2015, 3:18 pm

The idea that Rafa gets the better of Federer because of Federer's poor play is ridiculous. Federer brings his best when he plays Rafa. He played well against Rafa the last two times they met it was just that Rafa played better.

The much underrated AO semi is often misjudged by what looks like a lobsided score. The tennis was anything but

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mf3zY1P6U9U

Cincinnati was pretty good too Wink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwlCYjdn5I4

There is a reason why many love this match up. They tend to bring out the best in each other. The problem for Federer and his fans is that Rafa's best is just that little bit better than Federer's. The good thing for tennis fans is that when they play they can produce tennis like no one else. The problem for other players and their fans is that they are better than the rest. Arguing about H2H's between either of them and other players being "improved" now that Fed is old and Rafa is struggling to return from injury is laughable.

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Cincinnati Masters - Page 6 Empty Re: Cincinnati Masters

Post by HM Murdock Fri 21 Aug 2015, 3:27 pm

hawkeye wrote:They tend to bring out the best in each other.
Really? We see Federer's best tennis when he plays Rafa?

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Cincinnati Masters - Page 6 Empty Re: Cincinnati Masters

Post by JuliusHMarx Fri 21 Aug 2015, 3:32 pm

They've had 4 or 5 matches where both played at or near their best, but apart from that one or the other - or both - have been below their best.

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Cincinnati Masters - Page 6 Empty Re: Cincinnati Masters

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