Cincinnati Masters

First topic message reminder :

Full draw: http://www.protennislive.com/posting/2015/422/mds.pdf

I didnt have time to elaborate it, but the point I was making is that it would be relevant for the immediate future to account for the weeks rest, and other two having knocked each other senseless the previous week, it wont be as simple come the us open as we all seem to think.

An opinion that isnt popular is no problem, if it comes with no malice attached.
The footnote wasnt for that match it was a point about tempering expectations for the next slam, If I wanted to nastily asterisk Feds win, Id have done it, but I didnt, so calm down.

Given that Nadal reached his peak at an earlier age, I dont see a Novak whos one year older than Nadal would change the dynamic that they now have.

Novak is the better HC player from day one between the two, though Nadal peaked later on the HCs and managed some wins on HCs; Nadal the better clay court player. A Nadal who's clearly not at his peak on clay could still beat Novak at his peak on clay, the younger better Nadal on clay (age 22-24) should have an edge over a one year older Novak. On grass, the young Nadal who peaked on grass from 22-24 could handle a Fed who's younger and quicker than the current Fed, I think he certainly could beat a Novak who's one year older than him at least 50% of the time?

legendkillarV2 wrote:To a point yes, but given in those matches Djokovic and Murray weren't pressing as much as they do off the mark. Dolgo and Goffin have shots that could easily get purchase off the surface.

What Federer does so well is establish a dominant position in matches and doesn't force himself to every extent. The issue I take with Goffin and Dimitrov is not sticking with their gameplan and mindset. I was just dumbfounded. I am not saying it's easy, god I know I couldn't do it, but to lose a match with 2 breaks of serve in the bank? How are they ever going to break the glass ceiling if they can't win a match in that position?

It's a great aura to have if your Murray or Djokovic, but these guys are beatable.

It does help to have incredible technique and self-belief. Whilst on another planet to us mortals, Goffin & Dimitrov don't have Federers level on either account.

All I can say is summed up by this;

http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/news/cincinnati-2015-final-federer-brain-game

Made my week - I've never seen this done before!

bogbrush wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:To a point yes, but given in those matches Djokovic and Murray weren't pressing as much as they do off the mark. Dolgo and Goffin have shots that could easily get purchase off the surface.

What Federer does so well is establish a dominant position in matches and doesn't force himself to every extent. The issue I take with Goffin and Dimitrov is not sticking with their gameplan and mindset. I was just dumbfounded. I am not saying it's easy, god I know I couldn't do it, but to lose a match with 2 breaks of serve in the bank? How are they ever going to break the glass ceiling if they can't win a match in that position?

It's a great aura to have if your Murray or Djokovic, but these guys are beatable.

It does help to have incredible technique and self-belief. Whilst on another planet to us mortals, Goffin & Dimitrov don't have Federers level on either account.

All I can say is summed up by this;

http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/news/cincinnati-2015-final-federer-brain-game

Made my week - I've never seen this done before!

Quite - but I agree with you that the USO is a very different kettle of fish, and Fed probably needs a poor showing from Djoko/Murray or a slugfest between them in the SF to have any realistic chance of a win. However, I live in hope that this tactic, judiciously used, will be similarly effective at the USO, especially against Murray where it could add to the pressure on his 2nd serve.

bogbrush wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:To a point yes, but given in those matches Djokovic and Murray weren't pressing as much as they do off the mark. Dolgo and Goffin have shots that could easily get purchase off the surface.

What Federer does so well is establish a dominant position in matches and doesn't force himself to every extent. The issue I take with Goffin and Dimitrov is not sticking with their gameplan and mindset. I was just dumbfounded. I am not saying it's easy, god I know I couldn't do it, but to lose a match with 2 breaks of serve in the bank? How are they ever going to break the glass ceiling if they can't win a match in that position?

It's a great aura to have if your Murray or Djokovic, but these guys are beatable.

It does help to have incredible technique and self-belief. Whilst on another planet to us mortals, Goffin & Dimitrov don't have Federers level on either account.

All I can say is summed up by this;

http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/news/cincinnati-2015-final-federer-brain-game

Made my week - I've never seen this done before!

You don't need a Federer game to win (would be lovely). The point I am making these guys are talented enough to make shots that even Murray and Djokovic dream about. My issue is all that hardwork undone at the end when instead of trotting over the line, it's like they try a belly flop and don't finish!

Good piece on the link though

That brain game article linked by bb is indeed fascinating stuff. I've always liked O'Shannessy's writing style, and this is as good a piece as any I've seen from him. He is happy to give credit - where credit is due - to all players so can be relied on for a professional & unbiased analysis/perspective.

Quite apart from the Final itself, it gives a good insight to the tactical approach adopted by Federer throughout the tourney as a whole.

As nice as this article is, it is misleading. Fed's return stats were impressive yesterday but they were certainly not key to the match. the key to the match was actually his serve, helped by the pace conditions.  Fed would have won the first 2 sets of WImby with more ease than in Cincy had the court pace or Fed's serve been as efficient as in Cincy. Surely not allowing Djoko or Murray to have a look at his serve was by far the key to the weekend matches.

I interviewd O'shannessy today for an article I;m doing. Big fan.

LuvSports! wrote:I interviewd O'shannessy today for an article I;m doing. Big fan.

Give us a 606v2 exclusive LS - what was one of the questions you asked?

LuvSports! wrote:I interviewd O'shannessy today for an article I;m doing. Big fan.

You mean he's a big fan of you ....?

But seriously .... would be glad of any little snippets you might want to share.

Haha, nobody is a fan of me really!

It's an extension of the article i did about the decline of the shbh. 
Going to pitch it to a tennis website, freelance and all that  .

I will give v2 an exclusive later. Writing it right now!

I love those Federer half volley returns of serve!

There was one at 1-1 15-30 in the first which just obscene. The ball was pretty much at the service line when he hit it!

The crazy part is that it looks like a high risk tactic - it's difficult to do - but 7/11 is not a high risk outcome.

He would volley it if he could!

HM Murdock wrote:I love those Federer half volley returns of serve!

There was one at 1-1 15-30 in the first which just obscene. The ball was pretty much at the service line when he hit it!

The crazy part is that it looks like a high risk tactic - it's difficult to do - but 7/11 is not a high risk outcome.

They've certainly got everyone talking - I've never seen anything like it.

Luv, so you gonna write your memoirs too?

Can I have a signed copy couriered, please

I'm skint so I need compensation

I can Paypal you courier costs and a few pints of cask Pale Ale, think it goes well with your personality

Is Pale Ale a kooky fecker drink? I am of that kooky ilk.

I am surprised he hasn't thrown a tumble and a fumble in there!

hahah Pale Ale is for Academic staff like you, thats unless you like to go out with Students, then get a alcopop or whatever is in these days down the local.

As my student days ended this year I have moved on from alcopop's and have rekindled my love of appletizer though I did have to do Lambrini hands as a forfeit on a night out recently. Awful.

What, you out of Academia now?

Writing and cruise ships now, Lucky man

LuvSports! wrote:As my student days ended this year I have moved on from alcopop's and have rekindled my love of appletizer though I did have to do Lambrini hands as a forfeit on a night out recently. Awful.

Pff and here I am trying to be a not proper doctor wondering whether to bold my vectors or not!
Someone gave me a jeagerbomb once, it had to be explained to me that the shot glass in the tumbler wasnt an accident!

Yup Jahu. Freelance scummy journo, hopefully w/o the scum - but Haddie hates me  

Just marvel at the genius!

temporary21 wrote:

LuvSports! wrote:As my student days ended this year I have moved on from alcopop's and have rekindled my love of appletizer though I did have to do Lambrini hands as a forfeit on a night out recently. Awful.

Pff and here I am trying to be a not proper doctor wondering whether to bold my vectors or not!
Someone gave me a jeagerbomb once, it had to be explained to me that the shot glass in the tumbler wasnt an accident!

Wowwwww. Even my Dad knows that.

Federer nudges ahead in Djokovic head to head, 21-20. Djokovic still hasn't got the full masters set then. After losing the WTF, Federer still has one place at least left where is still the king. Surface speed is important.

Keeping things interesting ahead of the US Open.

I am not sure if all that going to the net on second serves (a tactic that seems to hark back to 90s grass and the likes of Jana Novotna and Tim Henman) is going to become a common tactic againnst Djokovic. Novak will have more time on the slower surfaces to pick him off as well as be more prepared for it, he may practice this tactic and serve a bit faster if necessary, so the surprise is good.

I think it could work better against Murray because Murray's second serves are quite often quite weak, he could at least try it against Murray. Although Murray's second serves quite often have more spin, which may make it challenging to hit it on the rise, and worth standing back a bit and going for the winner rather than the net approach?

So I guess Federer is seeded 2 for the US Open, then.

Oldest players in top 100

Ivo Karlovic (36)
Victor Estreella Burgos (35)
Benjamin Becker (34)
Roger Federer (34)

I don't see VEB and BB hanging around the top 100 for that long, maybe out by next year. Ivo who knows. Federer could end being the oldest player in the top 100 at some point, and yet ranked in the top 3.

The only way to take on a player like Djokovic is to keep him off balance, he is simply far too good to take on at his own game. On that basis, the half-volley return is another option to keep him guessing. It might only need to come out 5-6 times a match to have a value on 30+ second serves.

I agree, it might be a right nightmare for Murray - though it could finally provoke him into hitting the 2nd serve!

In 2016 I'm expecting Federer to start doing it on 1st serve.

Its an off putting tactic, though I wonder if maybe he should have saved it as a surprise for the US...

Ivo might stay there till hes 40, BB's done very well though

Such a risky ploy no?

Very risky, but a lot more risky if your opponent now knows youre doing it. though.

Great play by Fed to win Sunday's title...

Strange that Djoker, who's best surface is hard court - has now lost all 5 finals he's played in Cinci? Seems that surely he will win that title but each year that slips by...

Maybe 2016 will see him French Open, and Cincinnati title holder? Not going to get any easier though....

temporary21 wrote:Very risky, but a lot more risky if your opponent now knows youre doing it. though.

But he doesn't. It's a surprise tactic, so it has value even when not being used.

temporary21 wrote:Its an off putting tactic, though I wonder if maybe he should have saved it as a surprise for the US...

That charging the net thing is the tactic Brown used against Rafa at Wimbledon. Rosol was jumping about a bit on return during his infamous match with Rafa at Wimbledon too.

I wonder how much of the success of this tactic is down to surprise, distraction and annoyance rather than anything else? If so Fed will soon be "found out". Have read talk that some don't consider it "sporting"because of the movement whilst a player is serving. I'm sure Federer was hoping to use it against Rafa considering the success of Brown. But now I guess he has revealed his hand too early

Whoever said that is an idiot, both because it's not unsporting and because revealing it actually strengthens its value rather than the reverse. The tactic doesn't win many points - it's value is in making an impact on the server.

That's like saying when a player tries to run around his backhand on a second serve is unsporting too as he has to do that just as early

Rosol did nothing wrong in that match but Rafa did barge into him.....

It would be interesting to see what exactly it is that hawkeye has read re Federer's tactic being considered unsporting  - and who exactly has been describing it as such......

As far as the likes of Brown and Rosol are concerned .....well, yes, they certainly have been accused of causing 'surprise' and 'annoyance', along with certain other players, notably Darcis and Kyrgios (the latter being in trouble for all sorts of different reasons....). I seem to remember reading a lengthy complaint about their shocking (literally) behaviour in early Wimbledon rounds, by a Spanish gentleman called Toni.

lags72 wrote:It would be interesting to see what exactly it is that hawkeye has read re Federer's tactic being considered unsporting  - and who exactly has been describing it as such......

It's being discussed quite widely. Have a look around Fed moves as the server is serving it could be called as a distraction or a hindrance

Any actual links ....? I have seen some discussion about it - but all in a very positive tone.

I must admit, whilst not suggesting it's cheating or a hindrance, I squirmed a bit when I saw the first saw the clip of him doing it against Anderson. I guess just because it does go against convention to run in like that. It just seems rather "cheeky". Added to that, I didn't like that he said in press after that he started it in practice as a joke. Anderson is a good solid pro and was easily beaten and I thought Fed should have left that unsaid.

Well i havent seen the move, Im assuming hes right up near the service line beforehand.
If hes making a big movement right as the ball is tossed up, then MAYBE... its a sort of unwritten rule that you dont dance around with your feet too much to put the server off.

As long as its being done as a legit tactic, and not as a joke thing, like say hitting a drop shot off a return, or that famous chang lendl french open match, where chang got a df from lendl by standing on the service line, then its fine. If hes literally running in just as the ball is tossed up, then that could be a bit cheeky.

Temp:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICXfuI3j-EM

Whoa hes THAT far up...

I dunno about that move... the timings ok but thats pretty gimmicky, try that on a half decent serve or slower surface and hes gonna look pretty stupid. The actual approach that came off that wasnt very good, he was fortunate the pass was worse

If I was Novak id be praying for him to keep trying that, that wont come off well in the long run.

Here's the Anderson one:
http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/videohub/video/clipDeportes?id=deportes:2452902

He's not starting at the service line but is quite far forward.

Thats a bit like in test cricket, a batsman charging a fast bowler down the pitch and happens to connect for 6. The bowler definitely isnt unhappy.

It worked this week, but he was in nice touch this week, I think he should shelve that for the big one pronto...

I think it's brilliant.

I'm sure he'll be leaving Cincy checking exactly how many times he was successful and how many he missed or lost the point after. I doubt he'll be dropping it altogether - as others have said, the point is to make the server feel unsettled.

YvonneT wrote:Here's the Anderson one:
http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/videohub/video/clipDeportes?id=deportes:2452902

He's not starting at the service line but is quite far forward.  

Oh christ yeah thats close to hindrance... hes literally legging it in just as Anderson throws the ball up I dont know about that. The second one was just about ok,

Hes gotta shelve that, its a juniors gimmick tactic, theres no way itll be any good now people know he does it.

Servers should be VERY happy hes doing that. It worked only for shock value, and that only works for a bit. The bluster aside, its an old 1980's kamikaze to the net, the approach itself isnt good enough if you know its there.