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Who will make it out of the fourth quarter?

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Total Votes : 10
 
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Post by YvonneT Mon 17 Aug 2015, 1:49 pm

First topic message reminder :

Full draw: http://www.protennislive.com/posting/2015/422/mds.pdf

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Post by laverfan Tue 25 Aug 2015, 2:42 am

hawkeye wrote:It's being discussed quite widely. Have a look around Smile Fed moves as the server is serving it could be called as a distraction or a hindrance

Is twirling a racquet a distraction? If side-to-side is not, then why is back-to-front? If the server is so easily distracted, perhaps the crowds should also be removed from stadia, because they can be a distraction, too. Just ask Jahu about the ball-girls at Cincy. Laugh

If the server has taken their eye off the returner, they should be ashamed. Can they ever serve second-serve aces? Probably not.

A Mexican Wave is distracting though. Wink

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Post by TRuffin Tue 25 Aug 2015, 3:50 am

If it's a bad or unfair tactic, Seems odd that guys like Darin Cahill, brad Gilbert, pat McEnroe would be giddy with praise about the tactic and praising federer for it all week.  Seems odd multiple current and former atp and wta stars would be taking to Twitter praising the returns and marveling at Feds skill in pulling it off.  Article and article of praise for it. Johnny Mac, Sampras, agassi, sharapova at a Nike event in New York with fed tonight and all praising Feds form and tactics.    All these people actually a part of the game think it's great.    Or should we go by the views of other players fans with agendas... Hmmm.

Besides- anyone with a bit of tennis knowledge knows it's extremely common for attacking players to take a jump step into the baseline as the ball is being tossed. All federer is doing is continuing forward as the ball is being hit. It's not like he caused double faults by distracting the server. Every one he made the move on was an in play 2nd serve so the server must not have been affected.  The comms were saying djokos 2nd serves that fed came on successfully a couple times were 106mph and 100+ 2nd serves-   Pure evidence that the server is not hindered. Where fed was successful was taking all the time away with his return and being on top of the net. It's the servers second shot which is affected and that is the point and fair.

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Post by bogbrush Tue 25 Aug 2015, 5:04 am

temporary21 wrote:
YvonneT wrote:Here's the Anderson one:
http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/videohub/video/clipDeportes?id=deportes:2452902

He's not starting at the service line but is quite far forward.  

Oh christ yeah thats close to hindrance... hes literally legging it in just as Anderson throws the ball up I dont know about that. The second one was just about ok,

Hes gotta shelve that, its a juniors gimmick tactic, theres no way itll be any good now people know he does it.
That is ridiculous. If it loses him points them thats his problem but no way does he do anything except legitimately put himself in position to play the ball as he wants.

He doesn't wave his racquet to distract, he doesn't jump up to catch the eye....... and he certainly doesn't unnecessarily delay the game like some do, or disrupt the servers rhythm by standing up.

As for the wisdom for himself.... that's his affair.


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Post by bogbrush Tue 25 Aug 2015, 5:07 am

temporary21 wrote:Servers should be VERY happy hes doing that. It worked only for shock value, and that only works for a bit. The bluster aside, its an old 1980's kamikaze to the net, the approach itself isnt good enough if you know its there.
He did it every round and it worked because he's got the hand/eye coordination to do it. It takes all the time away from the server regardless of the quality. Like all innovations, it's for the server to adapt: either servers have to hit better 2nd serves, or be faster into their groundstroke position (most points he won were because the server just couldn't get into the right place to hit a shot). Quite why it's wrong to do that when its ok to hit 150mph serves, or play endlessly repetitive tactics to one part of the court, or exploit slow conditions to win through exhaustion, or hit moon balls out of reasonable reach, is beyond me.

In a game screaming out for variety and relief from tedious ball bashing it's a breath of fresh air, and one I'd like to see other talented players emulate. Let those who can, do...... and those who can't, adapt.


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Post by Belovedluckyboy Tue 25 Aug 2015, 5:18 am

I feel his way of return not so effective vs a spinny or off pace second serve. Its mainly to counter big servers or pacy serves. Djoko hitting 100 mph or above sec serve would fall into his trap when the return came back as quickly. This imo is taking it one step further from the way Djoko or Kei return serves. Djoko steps on the baseline to return, Kei sometimes moves inside the baseline, now Fed moves to the service box.

It works on a quick surface but not effective on a slow surface i feel. Its a pity Fed didnt do that earlier on grass at Wimbledon esp vs Novak. He concentrates on his serves but not on his returns then.

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Post by bogbrush Tue 25 Aug 2015, 5:24 am

Funny enough I can see it being even more use in slow conditions.

The value doesn't come from speed off the ground but in time taken away from the server to adopt a reasonable position to hit his groundstroke. That will work as well on slow clay as Cincinatti, and arguably will be a touch easier to hit off the serve. It also throws another way to impose short points on a court that would otherwise call for long rallies.

Players will be aware and will be thinking how to adapt, and that's great. Of course the value to Federer will be if they take more risks on the 80-90% of 2nd serves that he doesn't come in on like this, and induce double-faults. If they improve as a result, or if players try it on him, then it's all good.
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Post by Belovedluckyboy Tue 25 Aug 2015, 5:47 am

Nah, on a slower surface with a spinny or off pace serve the return would be slower and so giving the server a bit more time to react.

Djoko, Murray and Nadal all come with good reflexes so once they could anticipate it and be prepared for it, theyll most likely win some of those points with their good passing shots when Fed charges the net after that. Of course its still better for Fed than to just stay at the baseline and rally with them. Djoko won more rallying points than Fed did in the Cincy final.

I rewatched Fedal Cincy 2013 match. Fed wasnt that off his best in that match, the match was competitive from first to last point and only Fedal could play that way from start to finish. I feel Fed played better in that match than in his 2012 final as i feel Djoko only woke up in set 2 to play and so the match was only competitive in set 2. Djoko wasnt serving well too in yesterday's final and its a problem for him the whole tournament, not just the final.

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Post by bogbrush Tue 25 Aug 2015, 6:41 am

Great, gives them something new to handle. Of course, spinny off pace serves might be a drawback when he mostly stays back. It's the variety, not the shot, that carries most value.

As for 2013, you're joking, right? The season of disaster wrecked by the back - a year so bad it convinced him to change his racquet?
And I'd love to know how you worked out that Djokovic was half asleep in 2012.
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Post by Belovedluckyboy Tue 25 Aug 2015, 7:17 am

Novak played half heartedly in the first set. TBH, i feel he was tired after Olympics, Canada. Fed skipped Canada that year and was relatively fresh compared to Novak. Novak also wasnt prepared for the aggressive Fed but was up for it in the second set.


I think you have to watch the Cincy 2013 match again and see for yourself. Fed was moving well enough, hitting well enough. Its just that its Rafa across the net and Rafa was all ready at the get go, unlike Novak in 2012.

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Post by bogbrush Tue 25 Aug 2015, 7:28 am

Perhaps it's a bit like this year, where there's nothing wrong with Rafa - just that the others are ready for him. He'll have to re-raise his game, like Federer has.
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Post by Belovedluckyboy Tue 25 Aug 2015, 7:44 am

Fed did raise his level nearing end of 2013, probably entering his favorite part of the season. I dont deny Fed played poorly right up to Wimbledon and then Hamburg that year.

Rafa was playing poorly this year by his standard but he had/has improved slowly. The sec half season isnt his favorite so I dont expect him to do better than what Fed did at end of 2013.

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Post by kingraf Tue 25 Aug 2015, 7:58 am

I watched the Cincy 2013 match. I wasn't planning on it, but I did. Was a stunning match. Consensus on here was that it was one of their better matches. I'm surprised to see people now think Fed was on death's door then.
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Post by Guest Tue 25 Aug 2015, 8:12 am

bogbrush wrote:Perhaps it's a bit like this year, where there's nothing wrong with Rafa - just that the others are ready for him. He'll have to re-raise his game, like Federer has.

And also a real lacking in self-belief.

I don't see Murray or Djokovic miles ahead in terms of quality of play, but least they do have some self-belief to call on when they can. Just imagine if them 2 had a similar crisis of self-belief?!? Shocked

Imagine how the top of the game would look like Wink

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Post by bogbrush Tue 25 Aug 2015, 8:19 am

I can't see this as being about self-belief. Nadal has come back from loads of injury, and in this case the injury is nothing much, certainly nothing like what Murray has come back from (or the Federer back issues). Why would he lack belief unless he knows there's another factor?

Interestingly, for all the "Federer never gets injured" thing, it's Djokovic who seems to be the real miracle, especially considering the contortions and stresses he puts himself through!
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Post by Guest Tue 25 Aug 2015, 8:37 am

I have to say I do. The self-belief issue I feel could be anything. No belief in his game, or shots or body even. In terms of injury, if you know there is 100% chance you will recover with no residual effects it is a real source of re-assurance.

In terms of Murray and Federer and their back issues. Federer he seems quite able to manage it superbly well, apart from 2013 when it seemed at it's worse. Murray in 2014 you could see was really struggling physically and losing some of that bulk has helped enormously.

With Nadal I do think it's in the mind. Now he has surrendered that aura of invincibility, it's going to be increasingly difficult to get that back. To see him dump so many FH's in to the net is so unlike him and I don't see that as some physical underlying issue. Has he had any MTO's this year? I can't recall any off the top of me head.

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Post by Johnyjeep Tue 25 Aug 2015, 8:45 am

Good work from HE to get this thread back on topic...i.e. Nadal.

Fantastic play. If you can pull it off. Quite clearly it's not off putting too the server. Can't find any player even remotely suggesting as much.

I reckon Murray has the hands to pull this off too.

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Post by Haddie-nuff Tue 25 Aug 2015, 8:50 am

I am convinced that Rafa is dealing with some "issue" that is affecting his mental game, he lacks concentration, his game is inconsistent. This issue I believe could be  off court rather than on. Certainly something he is not prepared to make public. He appears troubled on court either about himself or something else.  He has not lost the ability to play but more confused as to what he can do to stop the rot. Prognosis.. a cure must be found in the short term as time is not on his side.

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Post by bogbrush Tue 25 Aug 2015, 8:52 am

This is a great point - I'd like to see some other players take up the idea. It's a really interesting way for the right guys to show something different plus it's tremendously efficient - yields a decent points haul (especially if you count the damage done to other 2nd serves because of uncertainty) for very little physical exertion. I'd like to see Federer throw in some "fake" charges too, look to go in then step back. Could yield some very interesting results.

I agree, Murray has the stuff for this.
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Post by HM Murdock Tue 25 Aug 2015, 9:00 am

bogbrush wrote:In a game screaming out for variety and relief from tedious ball bashing it's a breath of fresh air, and one I'd like to see other talented players emulate. Let those who can, do...... and those who can't, adapt.
I wholeheartedly agree with this.

It's great to see something new as a spectator and I love that Federer is doing something that I know for sure Novak and Andy will be discussing with their teams about ways to counter it.

I think it will eventually be countered rather than emulated. Some options would include:

- Lob. Novak pulled this off in Cincy. Has to be perfectly executed but works effectively.
- Pass. Depends on the server being able to adapt to the ball coming back earlier.
- A Lendl-esque body shot!

This may in fact be something where having Becker in the team will help. Whatever one's opinions of him as a coach (and I happen to think he's done rather well), he spent his career facing opponents taking similarly aggressive court positions.

Whatever happens, this is much more interesting than Novak playing the same old patterns and winning every time he plays above 75% level.

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Post by Guest Tue 25 Aug 2015, 9:02 am

Murray might get a nose bleed if he tries something that audacious!

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Post by hawkeye Tue 25 Aug 2015, 9:08 am

bogbrush wrote:I can't see this as being about self-belief. Nadal has come back from loads of injury, and in this case the injury is nothing much, certainly nothing like what Murray has come back from (or the Federer back issues). Why would he lack belief unless he knows there's another factor?

Interestingly, for all the "Federer never gets injured" thing, it's Djokovic who seems to be the real miracle, especially considering the contortions and stresses he puts himself through!

bogbrush. You can never rest as far as Rafa goes. He is like a thorn in your side. The fact is Rafa has missed huge chunks of his prime career through injury. You can attempt to talk him away as much as you want and talk up other players as much as you want but talk won't make him disappear. We have seen both Federer and Nadal play enough to know what they are both capable of at their best and to recognize when they are off their best. I've always thought that a contributing factor to Feds poor year in 2013 was caused by his bad luck with the draws. He had to face Nadal early in a few tournaments and this blocked off ranking points that he may well have earned if playing anyone else. Fed put up a good fight in most of thos matches. This contributed to his ranking and seeding drop. Fed has always been capable of beating other players. Just like bogbrush it's Rafa who is the thorn in his side...

kingraf wrote:I watched the Cincy 2013 match. I wasn't planning on it, but I did. Was a stunning match. Consensus on here was that it was one of their better matches. I'm surprised to see people now think Fed was on death's door then.

Agree. It was a great match and both players played well. Rafa has always struggled on quick surfaces but in 2013 it was if he was on a mission. His match with Djokovic in Canada was also high quality. I believe Djokovic played much better during that match than in any match in this years hard court swing. Don't think Federer was really tested this year either so can't see that his form is better either. But then bogbrush would say that I would say that Wink

How good was Rafa's American hard court sweep in 2013. Difficult to argue with Rafa's hard court skills after that Very Happy

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Post by hawkeye Tue 25 Aug 2015, 9:09 am

Haddie-nuff wrote:I am convinced that Rafa is dealing with some "issue" that is affecting his mental game, he lacks concentration, his game is inconsistent. This issue I believe could be  off court rather than on. Certainly something he is not prepared to make public. He appears troubled on court  either about himself or something else.  He has not lost the ability to play but more confused as to what he can do to stop the rot. Prognosis.. a cure must be found in the short term as time is not on his side.

Would be tough if true. But what has convinced you?

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Post by bogbrush Tue 25 Aug 2015, 9:15 am

The lob counter is probably the "easier" to pull off; the pass or body shot are tough because there's just no time to get in position to drive it whereas the lob doesn't require the same prep.

Emulating is not for everyone for sure, certainly not those who don't need to do it (like, why would Djokovic take the best returning game in the sport and mess with it anyway?).

At the end of the day, as long as it delivered say 35-40% success, for a guy like Federer it's a winner just on the basis of energy efficiency and uncertainty.
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Post by HM Murdock Tue 25 Aug 2015, 9:15 am

hawkeye wrote:I've always thought that a contributing factor to Feds poor year in 2013 was caused by his bad luck with the draws. He had to face Nadal early in a few tournaments and this blocked off ranking points that he may well have earned if playing anyone else.
He would have done better if he'd come up against players like Stakhovsky, Delbois, Brands, Benneteau or Robredo instead.

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Post by bogbrush Tue 25 Aug 2015, 9:18 am

hawkeye wrote:
bogbrush wrote:I can't see this as being about self-belief. Nadal has come back from loads of injury, and in this case the injury is nothing much, certainly nothing like what Murray has come back from (or the Federer back issues). Why would he lack belief unless he knows there's another factor?

Interestingly, for all the "Federer never gets injured" thing, it's Djokovic who seems to be the real miracle, especially considering the contortions and stresses he puts himself through!

bogbrush. You can never rest as far as Rafa goes. He is like a thorn in your side. The fact is Rafa has missed huge chunks of his prime career through injury. You can attempt to talk him away as much as you want and talk up other players as much as you want but talk won't make him disappear. We have seen both Federer and Nadal play enough to know what they are both capable of at their best and to recognize when they are off their best. I've always thought that a contributing factor to Feds poor year in 2013 was caused by his bad luck with the draws. He had to face Nadal early in a few tournaments and this blocked off ranking points that he may well have earned if playing anyone else. Fed put up a good fight in most of thos matches. This contributed to his ranking and seeding drop. Fed has always been capable of beating other players. Just like bogbrush it's Rafa who is the thorn in his side...
Not any more.

I don't know why you're suggesting I'm not saying Nadal is striken, I've been saying it for ages. I just doubt it's this mental thing I keep hearing about which is conveniently unprovable.
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Post by HM Murdock Tue 25 Aug 2015, 9:19 am

bogbrush wrote:The lob counter is probably the "easier" to pull off; the pass or body shot are tough because there's just no time to get in position to drive it whereas the lob doesn't require the same prep.
That's the other thing I like about Fed's return - effective counters will depend on things being done better. Players will have to improve in certain skills or at least learn to execute them more quickly. I can't see it being countered by tactics only.

Even the lob will have to be executed perfectly or it's going to get smashed.

Progress!

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Post by Haddie-nuff Tue 25 Aug 2015, 9:21 am

I don know HE..my mind goes back to Wimbledon when he withdrew because of trouble at home.. he cannot cope with personal and career issues at the same time.. Im second guessing here nothing specific.

Still let us concentrate on the fawning of the Federer fans and how he
is "teasing us" with his comments about playing on for years to come.. Isnt that so cute notworthy .

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Tue 25 Aug 2015, 9:21 am

More than just appendicitis surgery, its his back thats giving him problem all year last year and he had a stem cell treatment for the back end of last year. I think hes not trusting his back yet, so hes doing it slowly for fear of getting injury again and the subsequent stop start and rebuilding all over again. It more a mental issue of not wanting to injure himself again.

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Post by Guest Tue 25 Aug 2015, 9:30 am

bogbrush wrote:
hawkeye wrote:
bogbrush wrote:I can't see this as being about self-belief. Nadal has come back from loads of injury, and in this case the injury is nothing much, certainly nothing like what Murray has come back from (or the Federer back issues). Why would he lack belief unless he knows there's another factor?

Interestingly, for all the "Federer never gets injured" thing, it's Djokovic who seems to be the real miracle, especially considering the contortions and stresses he puts himself through!

bogbrush. You can never rest as far as Rafa goes. He is like a thorn in your side. The fact is Rafa has missed huge chunks of his prime career through injury. You can attempt to talk him away as much as you want and talk up other players as much as you want but talk won't make him disappear. We have seen both Federer and Nadal play enough to know what they are both capable of at their best and to recognize when they are off their best. I've always thought that a contributing factor to Feds poor year in 2013 was caused by his bad luck with the draws. He had to face Nadal early in a few tournaments and this blocked off ranking points that he may well have earned if playing anyone else. Fed put up a good fight in most of thos matches. This contributed to his ranking and seeding drop. Fed has always been capable of beating other players. Just like bogbrush it's Rafa who is the thorn in his side...
Not any more.

I don't know why you're suggesting I'm not saying Nadal is striken, I've been saying it for ages. I just doubt it's this mental thing I keep hearing about which is conveniently unprovable.

The proof will be in the pudding me thinks. Let's see if the decline continues into 2016. I think most if not all wrote some kind of obituary for Federer in 2013 and Murray in 2014 respectively.

I don't hold much hope for the competition to move ahead. So if it is 'mental' then by all accounts we can expect some kind of return to form, if it continues into 2016, I think again dear sir you will be correct Very Happy

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Post by Haddie-nuff Tue 25 Aug 2015, 9:41 am

I don't know why you're suggesting I'm not saying Nadal is striken, I've been saying it for ages. I just doubt it's this mental thing I keep hearing about which is conveniently unprovable.


Is that not the criteria for 606v ..of course unless we get everything checked out by the bb wikepedia of indisputable facts

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Post by Johnyjeep Tue 25 Aug 2015, 9:45 am

Haddie-nuff wrote:I don know HE..my mind goes back to Wimbledon when he withdrew because of trouble at home.. he cannot cope with personal and career issues at the same time.. Im second guessing here nothing specific.

Still let us concentrate on the fawning of the Federer fans and how he
is "teasing us" with his comments about playing on for years to come.. Isnt that so cute notworthy .


Yes, apologies for us wanting to discuss something on the Cincy thread that actually happened at Cincy. Less than 2 days ago. In the final as well. Between the No.1 and No.2 in the world.

I don't see this ploy working on grass or clay. I think its a hard court only play..because of the consistency and reliability that comes with the bounce. To do so on any other surface adds another element of variability which nulify your hand skills.

So back to Nadal's struggles over the course of the last 12 months..and longer..


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Post by Guest Tue 25 Aug 2015, 9:49 am

Can I just say he was number 3 going into the final whilst enjoying Andy's brief stint there Wink

It really does make the draw for the US Open more tantalising because I am sure most will want the stars to align for a certain special someone.

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Post by JuliusHMarx Tue 25 Aug 2015, 9:53 am

legendkillarV2 wrote:Can I just say he was number 3 going into the final whilst enjoying Andy's brief stint there Wink

It really does make the draw for the US Open more tantalising because I am sure most will want the stars to align for a certain special someone.

Awww, thanks lk kiss

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Post by Guest Tue 25 Aug 2015, 9:55 am

JuliusHMarx wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:Can I just say he was number 3 going into the final whilst enjoying Andy's brief stint there Wink

It really does make the draw for the US Open more tantalising because I am sure most will want the stars to align for a certain special someone.

Awww, thanks lk kiss

Hug the Milk Tray will be delivered by me in a tux!

Will you be trying to emulate your Wimbledon triumphs or will you retire at the top? chin

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Post by Born Slippy Tue 25 Aug 2015, 9:56 am

Did anyone else notice how good Murray's second serve was in the Fed match by the way? It was consistently over 90mph and I don't recall any double faults. After the first couple of games he was winning 60% plus points behind it.

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Post by Johnyjeep Tue 25 Aug 2015, 10:13 am

legendkillarV2 wrote:Can I just say he was number 3 going into the final whilst enjoying Andy's brief stint there Wink

It really does make the draw for the US Open more tantalising because I am sure most will want the stars to align for a certain special someone.

Of course you can!!! Hug I was being lazy

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Post by Jahu Tue 25 Aug 2015, 10:19 am

ES article on this new phenomenon in tennis

http://www.eurosport.com/tennis/us-open/2015/roger-federer-winning-us-open-would-be-a-cinderella-story-to-rival-the-great-james-j.-braddock_sto4876955/story.shtml
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Post by bogbrush Tue 25 Aug 2015, 11:09 am

Jahu wrote:ES article on this new phenomenon in tennis

http://www.eurosport.com/tennis/us-open/2015/roger-federer-winning-us-open-would-be-a-cinderella-story-to-rival-the-great-james-j.-braddock_sto4876955/story.shtml
Well, fills a commission but little else. We have to be realistic; it was Cincy; it was bo3; it was Djokovic & Murray "fresh" from the Montreal final.
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Post by bogbrush Tue 25 Aug 2015, 11:11 am

Haddie-nuff wrote:I don't know why you're suggesting I'm not saying Nadal is striken, I've been saying it for ages. I just doubt it's this mental thing I keep hearing about which is conveniently unprovable.


Is that not the criteria for 606v ..of course unless we get everything checked out by the bb wikepedia  of indisputable facts
Well if you think speculating on his home life with zero factual basis holds water then good luck. I don't think I'm being unreasonable pointing out how insubstantial that theory is.
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Post by temporary21 Tue 25 Aug 2015, 11:14 am

Lo and behold...
Theres a split step and then theres the running in like the Anderson one, thats quite far...
As for it being just his business, if we cant discuss the merits of a new tactic, then what are we doing? Can we make Nadals OCD just his business too?

Also I dont wish to burst a bubble, but Murray DID do something like that, in the Montreal final in the third set, but he didnt move to the net until the serve had been returned.


With Nadal blb got it right, people really dont seem to understand how serious a back problem requiring treatment is...

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Post by bogbrush Tue 25 Aug 2015, 11:16 am

Belovedluckyboy wrote:More than just appendicitis surgery, its his back thats giving him problem all year last year and he had a stem cell treatment for the back end of last year.  I think hes not trusting his back yet, so hes doing it slowly for fear of getting injury again and the subsequent stop start and rebuilding all over again. It more a mental issue of not wanting to injure himself again.
That makes sense, though it's a Hell of a long time to be nursing a back unless it's actually not working - in which case the issue would be physical. I can't see anyone spending a year with a pain-free back holding back for fear of hurting it. I suppose is stem cells take ages to grow into the required tissue then ok, but.......

By the way, imagine if the greats of yesteryear whose careers were shortened could have had all this? What records might today's gang be chasing?
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Post by temporary21 Tue 25 Aug 2015, 11:17 am

bogbrush wrote:
Haddie-nuff wrote:I don't know why you're suggesting I'm not saying Nadal is striken, I've been saying it for ages. I just doubt it's this mental thing I keep hearing about which is conveniently unprovable.


Is that not the criteria for 606v ..of course unless we get everything checked out by the bb wikepedia  of indisputable facts
Well if you think speculating on his home life with zero factual basis holds water then good luck. I don't think I'm being unreasonable pointing out how insubstantial that theory is.
Hows it any less substantial than the idea that Nadal is faking OCD just to get more time between points? Can you both please respect each others points...

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Post by bogbrush Tue 25 Aug 2015, 11:19 am

temporary21 wrote:Lo and behold...
Theres a split step and then theres the running in like the Anderson one, thats quite far...
As for it being just his business, if we cant discuss the merits of a new tactic, then what are we doing? Can we make Nadals OCD just his business too?

Also I dont wish to burst a bubble, but Murray DID do something like that, in the Montreal final in the third set, but he didnt move to the net until the serve had been returned.
Blimey, is this hard?

Nadal's OCD is no issue unless it causes the rules of the game to be broken. Time between points is not speculative, it's factual. I respect all arguments relative to their basis in fact and didn't become sarcastic about someone else's "wiki of indisputable facts".

What Federer did broke no rules at all and nothing he did put anyone off (as another poster observed, Djokovic's serves when Federer came in were excellent, >100 mpm 2nd serves). Also, what bubble do you think you're bursting - everyone else here is hoping other players adopt the tactic and Murray has been identified by two of us as clearly able to go for this?

Thin gruel, this.
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Post by temporary21 Tue 25 Aug 2015, 11:24 am

Cool it down a bit bb, people who dont fully agree with you arent necessarily wrong.

The reason for time between points is just as speculative as Nadals home life, you cant prove either and both have happened before.

We also arent referring to the Djokovic one bb, there was one against Anderson with a MUCH bigger movement before the serve, we all agreed the Novak one was just about ok. So cool it a little k? Hug

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Post by JuliusHMarx Tue 25 Aug 2015, 11:31 am

I don't see anything wrong or against the rules in what Fed did. Elsewhere I've read nothing but praise and excitement about it. Apparently we're told there are a lot of people complaining about it - where should I look to find that? The fan sites of other players perhaps?

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Post by bogbrush Tue 25 Aug 2015, 11:33 am

temporary21 wrote:Cool it down a bit bb, people who dont fully agree with you arent necessarily wrong.

The reason for time between points is just as speculative as Nadals home life, you cant prove either and both have happened before.

We also arent referring to the Djokovic one bb, there was one against Anderson with a MUCH bigger movement before the serve, we all agreed the Novak one was just about ok. So cool it a little k? Hug
Sorry, cool what? I haven't been even slightly sarcastic or rude about another poster - that was Haddie (who was only mildly sarcastic, not troublesome to me).

I said nothing about Rafa's time between points - you brought that up. All I say is that he breaks the rule (fact) and should be held to account (unarguable).

As for Anderson / Djokovic, WE'RE all fine with the tactic - including the resident big Djokovic fan who is made up with it. It's YOU who are the only person (with perhaps one other poster of similar persuasion touching on it) trying to make out this is somehow not legit. ALL the pro's and observers seem very happy with it.
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Post by Jahu Tue 25 Aug 2015, 11:33 am

bogbrush wrote:
Belovedluckyboy wrote:More than just appendicitis surgery, its his back thats giving him problem all year last year and he had a stem cell treatment for the back end of last year.  I think hes not trusting his back yet, so hes doing it slowly for fear of getting injury again and the subsequent stop start and rebuilding all over again. It more a mental issue of not wanting to injure himself again.
That makes sense, though it's a Hell of a long time to be nursing a back unless it's actually not working - in which case the issue would be physical. I can't see anyone spending a year with a pain-free back holding back for fear of hurting it. I suppose is stem cells take ages to grow into the required tissue then ok, but.......

By the way, imagine if the greats of yesteryear whose careers were shortened could have had all this? What records might today's gang be chasing?

Yeah, more of a media excitement as a level of his play at this age, and I'm sure media are bored of Djoko, so they want to prop Fed after a long time.
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Post by temporary21 Tue 25 Aug 2015, 11:34 am

I was given a video of the Anderson one and asked to look at it. I thought personally that wasnt a movement but an active run as he was serving, which seemed excessive, nothing more, nothing less.

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Post by Jahu Tue 25 Aug 2015, 11:38 am

tempo, trying to be harsh and limiting our pleasure of Feds win, now after footnoting Fed the other day?

Have you been to Holiday this year? Chill a little.

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Post by temporary21 Tue 25 Aug 2015, 11:39 am

No youve missed the point completely. The REASON for his breaking the rule has been given a lot of speculation, just as unprovable as a family problem.
Im not saying he broke the rule at any point, so dont try and lie about it, I thought the Anderson one looked close to hindrance, TO ME. The novak one looks perfectly legit sure.

My issue with the tactic is its primary value is shock, which hes now lost for the USO, Im not sure it sends the right message if Fed thinks he needs to do that...

So again, theres no conspiracy against Fed here, im just not so hot on that tactic going forward, so please lets just cool it on that, its just tennis.

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