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Who will make it out of the fourth quarter?

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Total Votes : 10
 
Poll closed

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Post by YvonneT Mon 17 Aug 2015, 1:49 pm

First topic message reminder :

Full draw: http://www.protennislive.com/posting/2015/422/mds.pdf

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Post by bogbrush Tue 25 Aug 2015, 11:39 am

temporary21 wrote:I was given a video of the Anderson one and asked to look at it. I thought personally that wasnt a movement but an active run as he was serving, which seemed excessive, nothing more, nothing less.
Did it put his serve off? Cause a df? Cause a flawed service?

No?

So what's the point again?
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Post by temporary21 Tue 25 Aug 2015, 11:42 am

Alright Im gonna have to take the first step I guess.

BB, its just tennis, I dont care this much to have one of these fights with you, Ive got a deadline today so I have to tap out anyway

Its a neat move, but I dont think its the right one, and an early very big trigger movement is too big a give away anyway.

Have a nice day, and PLEASE at least try to understand different points of view.


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Post by Johnyjeep Tue 25 Aug 2015, 11:48 am

I've read BB comments several times and.I'm struggling to see what on Earth he has to "cool". Reasoned, sensible debate/observations? He hasn't been insulting or abused anyone.

If either you or HE can provide us with evidence of why this is unacceptable, preferably from players...then please share.

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Post by bogbrush Tue 25 Aug 2015, 11:50 am

temporary21 wrote:No youve missed the point completely. The REASON for his breaking the rule has been given a lot of speculation, just as unprovable as a family problem.
Im not saying he broke the rule at any point, so dont try and lie about it, I thought the Anderson one looked close to hindrance, TO ME. The novak one looks perfectly legit sure.

My issue with the tactic is its primary value is shock, which hes now lost for the USO, Im not sure it sends the right message if Fed thinks he needs to do that...

So again, theres no conspiracy against Fed here, im just not so hot on that tactic going forward, so please lets just cool it on that, its just tennis.
Yes, I think there is probably an issue TO YOU...... and to nobody else. Hence there's definitely no conspiracy against Federer.

As for message, what it seems to me to send is that the most talented player I've ever seen has added something new to the game that the rest of the guys will be inspired by... to emulate or to counter.
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Post by JuliusHMarx Tue 25 Aug 2015, 11:54 am

It would not be hindrance - because it is simply moving forward to actually make his return of serve. Hindrance normally applies when you are doing something not related to your actual play - e.g. throwing your racket from hand to hand. It could be argued that exaggerated side-to-side movements or jumping up and down are hindrance, but not a simple forward movement to play a shot.
Hence the reason why no players or pro analysts are calling it into question.

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Post by temporary21 Tue 25 Aug 2015, 11:56 am

Theres an issue being made out of nothing here guys, theres no need to be this sharp, noones in trouble but Haddie didnt think much of it either, its a common thing to happen.

There no offense cased here so lets just leave it ok?

Julius-Its just a bit of an unwritten rule, like the Rosol movements jumping up and down, reiterate again, noone is saying he broke a rule, but like Yvonne the Anderson one didnt look quite right. That shouldnt be a opinion getting this much ire.

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Post by JuliusHMarx Tue 25 Aug 2015, 12:00 pm

Bafflement rather than ire, I think. I think people are simply uncertain why a minority of people can't admire it for what it is, the way most people are. The assumption, perhaps incorrect, is that some fans of other players don't like to see Fed doing something that gathers almost universal praise.

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Post by lags72 Tue 25 Aug 2015, 12:04 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:I don't see anything wrong or against the rules in what Fed did. Elsewhere I've read nothing but praise and excitement about it. Apparently we're told there are a lot of people complaining about it - where should I look to find that? The fan sites of other players perhaps?

Must confess I have been struggling myself to find anything but positive comment in the wider mainstream media.

The first I heard of any alleged criticism was when hawkeye wrote this earlier in the thread

"Have read talk that some don't consider it "sporting" because of the movement whilst a player is serving"

I was intrigued and so asked hawkeye what exactly it was that was being said - and by whom.

In response to this specific question, I was then told by hawkeye, with a certain amount of vagueness :

"It's being discussed quite widely"

Couldn't find anything, so I asked if any links could be provided. But the responses then dried up.

interestingly, and in the absence of any further information re who was commenting about the issue in a critical way or describing the tactic as 'unsporting' I did then see this perspective offered by TRuffin, which helped put things into context :

"Article and article of praise for it. Johnny Mac, Sampras, agassi, sharapova at a Nike event in New York with fed tonight and all praising Feds form and tactics.    All these people actually a part of the game think it's great.    Or should we go by the views of other players fans with agendas... Hmmm."

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Post by Jahu Tue 25 Aug 2015, 12:06 pm

tempo should take a forced sabbatical 1 week.

Also as a mod, he should not lean so heavy for or against any player laughing



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Post by temporary21 Tue 25 Aug 2015, 12:06 pm

Not everyone has to praise roger for everything he does JHM, that seems to be whats causing the bafflement. But why is that baffling? Its just a different view, noones having a go for it, but not everyones excited to see a great player use tactics like that, because its so easy for it to go wrong.

Cricket analogy again, Ben Stokes tends to throw his willow at every ball, even in tests, not everyone sings his praises for that, even though it takes of course some real skill.

The assumption is entirely incorrect JHM, and almost an insult, a similarly bad assumption would be that some Fed fans refuse to acknowledge that any opinion other than theirs could be valid

But neither are true are they?

This is a ridiculous conversation to be having,

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Post by Guest Tue 25 Aug 2015, 12:15 pm

lags72 wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:I don't see anything wrong or against the rules in what Fed did. Elsewhere I've read nothing but praise and excitement about it. Apparently we're told there are a lot of people complaining about it - where should I look to find that? The fan sites of other players perhaps?

Must confess I have been struggling myself to find anything but positive comment in the wider mainstream media.

The first I heard of any alleged criticism was when hawkeye wrote this earlier in the thread

"Have read talk that some don't consider it "sporting" because of the movement whilst a player is serving"

I was intrigued and so asked hawkeye what exactly it was that was being said - and by whom.

In response to this specific question, I was then told by hawkeye, with a certain amount of vagueness :

"It's being discussed quite widely"

Couldn't find anything, so I asked if any links could be provided. But the responses then dried up.

interestingly, and in the absence of any further information re who was commenting about the issue in a critical way or describing the tactic as 'unsporting' I did then see this perspective offered by TRuffin, which helped put things into context :

"Article and article of praise for it. Johnny Mac, Sampras, agassi, sharapova at a Nike event in New York with fed tonight and all praising Feds form and tactics.    All these people actually a part of the game think it's great.    Or should we go by the views of other players fans with agendas... Hmmm."

clap clap

You have won the internet! Laugh

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Post by HM Murdock Tue 25 Aug 2015, 12:18 pm

temporary21 wrote:My issue with the tactic is its primary value is shock, which hes now lost for the USO
I disagree.

The shock factor subsided once he'd done it more than a handful of times. There are two problems that remain for opponents:

1) The technical problem - how to counter it. What shot is played in response.
2) The mental problem - now they know he might do it, where and how do they hit a second serve?

It may be problem #2 that has the most benefit in USO. It's one more thing for the server to think about on a high pressure second serve.

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Post by Johnyjeep Tue 25 Aug 2015, 12:24 pm

But no one is accusing Stokes actions of being unsporting.

That discussion is different Temp to the merits of when, where or how to deploy it.

Is it unreasonable to request sources of information from the poster who brought it to our attention in the first place?

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Post by temporary21 Tue 25 Aug 2015, 12:27 pm

HM Murdock wrote:
temporary21 wrote:My issue with the tactic is its primary value is shock, which hes now lost for the USO
I disagree.

The shock factor subsided once he'd done it more than a handful of times. There are two problems that remain for opponents:

1) The technical problem - how to counter it. What shot is played in response.
2) The mental problem - now they know he might do it, where and how do they hit a second serve?

It may be problem #2 that has the most benefit in USO. It's one more thing for the server to think about on a high pressure second serve.
Maybe...
for 1) the shot is a passing shot, if they can see it coming, and its fairly well signposted, a decent pass would put it to bed.
2) would be a clear problem for the lower guys, but I think the guys who are his main opposition, Muzz and Novak can probably put it to the back of their mind. I wouldn't be too concerned about someone coming in off their serve, especially Novaks whos second delivery is stellar

True it might work for one big point in a tb, which might be enough, Im not sure thats gonna be enough though, its the stamina issue thats the main problem.

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Post by temporary21 Tue 25 Aug 2015, 12:31 pm

Johnyjeep wrote:But no one is accusing Stokes actions of being unsporting.

That discussion is different Temp to the merits of when, where or how to deploy it.

Is it unreasonable to request sources of information from the poster who brought it to our attention in the first place?
Nono I dont think its unsporting, I think this seems to be the crossed wire as to why this has happened.

I know Rogers not delberately trying to put off opponents, the Anderson one just didnt look right, hes literally jogging in from behind the baseline as the ball is thrown. If hes gonna do it hes gotta be nearly up there from the start, other wise a player could claim too much movement.

More than that, tactically that big a movements too big a give away now.

Ive no idea if HE thinks its unsporting or not, I was just taken aback at how big a movement it was.

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Post by HM Murdock Tue 25 Aug 2015, 12:39 pm

temporary21 wrote:
Maybe...
for 1) the shot is a passing shot, if they can see it coming, and its fairly well signposted, a decent pass would put it to bed.
More than see it coming, they have to execute the shot. Novak is generally superb at passing shots but you could see he was struggling to get into position quick enough to hit them.

I'm certain he'll adapt and deal with it better in the future, but Federer throwing down this gauntlet is forcing an opponent to get better at something.

After a long period of players having to go the gym in response to a rival, Federer is doing something that sends them to the practice court.

That's probably what I like most about it.

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Post by Johnyjeep Tue 25 Aug 2015, 12:40 pm

Ah I see. Sorry. Just you described it as off putting. So I was assuming you were being critical of the behaviour rather the merits of the play.

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Post by temporary21 Tue 25 Aug 2015, 12:42 pm

HM Murdock wrote:
temporary21 wrote:
Maybe...
for 1) the shot is a passing shot, if they can see it coming, and its fairly well signposted, a decent pass would put it to bed.
More than see it coming, they have to execute the shot. Novak is generally superb at passing shots but you could see he was struggling to get into position quick enough to hit them.

I'm certain he'll adapt and deal with it better in the future, but Federer throwing down this gauntlet is forcing an opponent to get better at something.

After a long period of players having to go the gym in response to a rival, Federer is doing something that sends them to the practice court.

That's probably what I like most about it.

Maybe, I dunno if I would bank on Novak missing many passing shots, of of what can only realistically be a fairly weak approach. You feel I guess that the guys will be worried about it, I actually dont think they should be. Id much prefer him tactically to run round and belt a forehand than use that.

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Post by Henman Bill Tue 25 Aug 2015, 12:42 pm

If the slice approach is short and low, it's very hard to get any angle to pass, and hard to get up and down with enough power, the lob is also tricky. So the body shot mainly becomes attractive because of a lack of alternative, and also because you are close enough. I think it's a good option. You also can afford to hit the ball so hard that it's very close to going out, just enough to put a seed of doubt into the opponent's mind about whether to get out of the way or try and play it.

If Federer is standing close enough on the second serve, is there an option for a body serve on the second serve at all?

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Post by temporary21 Tue 25 Aug 2015, 12:47 pm

Johnyjeep wrote:Ah I see. Sorry. Just you described it as off putting. So I was assuming you were being critical of the behaviour rather the merits of the play.
Nono
I first was shown the Novak one, and I was shocked, when people said half volley return I didnt think they meant literally at the service line digging out a shot and going kamikaze to the net. I didnt look like a big movement though.

Yvonne then said she cringes a little at the Anderson one, so I watched the link, and it was totally different, hes behind the baseline, and then is jogging in as the serve goes up, ending up at the service line. I agreed that the opponent might make a case that its too much movement, cause ts not a jump or a raquet twirl hes actually close to running.

This isnt a problem with roger, but I dislike this one tactically, Im not sure it sends the right message, "I think I need to try this to beat the big guys", and im sure thats what big Big Boz is telling Novak. The second one especially is way to easy to see.

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Post by temporary21 Tue 25 Aug 2015, 12:54 pm

This is the frustration, I dont think my above post is in any way unreasonable, but everything seems to have been taken completely the wrong way, in fact it seems HE's views are the reason, who ill be honest didnt know was even in this convo!

Anyway tactically, if he has time to do that, hes much better served running round and hitting an orthodox forehand return, getting the weak reply, and then coming in on a better approach.

What Roger doesnt want is to lose clarity of thought when hes returning, ifs hes thinking bout this when he returns thats not gonna help his orthodox ones.

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Post by LuvSports! Tue 25 Aug 2015, 1:07 pm

Each to their own Smile . I love it.

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Post by Guest Tue 25 Aug 2015, 1:08 pm

You love everything! Wink

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Post by LuvSports! Tue 25 Aug 2015, 1:15 pm

Haha! Not true. I hate Millwall.

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Post by temporary21 Tue 25 Aug 2015, 1:15 pm

Looking at a gif of it on a different forum (wow are they nasty!).Novak wasnt rushed on the pass at all, should have made it. Not sure I like those odds

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Post by Guest Tue 25 Aug 2015, 1:16 pm

That goes against your namesake! You have to love the Lions! Wink

Though I hate them too Laugh

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Post by LuvSports! Tue 25 Aug 2015, 1:19 pm

Well I still luvsports! But not everyone in that sport!

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Post by Born Slippy Tue 25 Aug 2015, 1:34 pm

Fed can move as much as he likes to return a serve - in the same way he can run anywhere on court when someone is lining up a forehand. Have to say, as a Murray fan I am fairly happy if he does it. Seemed to result in a relatively weak return for Andy to fire past him. I am assuming it was better executed versus Novak?

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Post by YvonneT Tue 25 Aug 2015, 1:49 pm

Well I said it didn't really like - it's certainly allowed, no argument. The odd thing is I'm not sure exactly why I didn't like it. Partly because it so unconventional so maybe it feels a bit like an underarm serve. The other aspect is maybe that it feels a bit "Monfilsian" - it didn't work particularly well against Murray and I believe that the clip I posted previously was the only time it worked against Anderson (most attempts missed) - maybe it just seems unnecessarily flashy! The "started as a joke" comment probably didn't help warm me to it.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Tue 25 Aug 2015, 2:02 pm

The best approach is not letting Fed has a chance to do that, ie not giving him pace to work with.

I feel Novak wasnt varying his 2nd serve that much, he just kept hitting it hard with pace, its like he wished to finish the point asap.

Novak's own return is equally good if not better so there's no fear there for Novak. I would bet that if the two meet at the USO, Novak will not allow Fed many chances to do that to his sec serves.

Itll be interesting to see Novak and Murray vs Fed esp at the quicker courts of Shanghai and the indoor courts, whether Fed can still have the upper hand with this tactic.

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Post by bogbrush Tue 25 Aug 2015, 2:10 pm

temporary21 wrote:This is the frustration, I dont think my above post is in any way unreasonable, but everything seems to have been taken completely the wrong way, in fact it seems HE's views are the reason, who ill be honest didnt know was even in this convo!

Anyway tactically, if he has time to do that, hes much better served running round and hitting an orthodox forehand return, getting the weak reply, and then coming in on a better approach.

What Roger doesnt want is to lose clarity of thought when hes returning, ifs hes thinking bout this when he returns thats not gonna help his orthodox ones.
So you DON'T think it's in any way unsporting or unworthy, just a bad tactic?

Just checking, I was certain that earlier on you felt it was poor form, especially against Anderson.
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Post by laverfan Tue 25 Aug 2015, 2:14 pm

Federer approached directly off a second serve 11 times for the match, winning seven, with some coming as ultra-aggressive half-volleys that required a global double-take. Just when you thought you had seen it all, Federer irreverently wrote a new chapter of what’s possible when returning serve.

Some return approaches were so extreme, it seemed like the ball had barely bounced in the service box before the Swiss star had charged forward to take it as early as possible on the rise. Federer said he recently practised the half-volley returns as a joke, but saw that it worked and tested it throughout the tournament with eye-raising success. The quicker courts in Cincinnati were the perfect place for Federer to reinvent himself once again.

Federer primarily used the tactic in the opening set, coming forward eight times, and winning five. A hidden benefit of the aggressive return tactic is that it completely robs the server of time to prepare for the first shot after the serve. There is no better time in tennis to rush a groundstroke than right after a serve, as there is a lot more organisation required of the hands and feet following a service motion to then hit a groundstroke.

For the tournament, including the first five Djokovic service games of the final, Federer had remarkably made contact with 14 return of serves standing within six feet of the service line. That’s simply unheard of. The ball had barely bounced and Federer was pouncing on it, rebounding it quickly back to Djokovic to avoid a baseline exchange, and showcase his net prowess.


Read the rest at  http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/news/cincinnati-2015-final-federer-brain-game

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Post by temporary21 Tue 25 Aug 2015, 2:17 pm

The Anderson one I have some doubt about, unworthy or unsporting were words I never once said or even suggested, is that what all the fuss was about? Next time just ask for clarification instead of jumping to conclusions like that

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Post by bogbrush Tue 25 Aug 2015, 2:23 pm

temporary21 wrote:The Anderson one I have some doubt about, unworthy or unsporting were words I never once said or even suggested, is that what all the fuss was about? Next time just ask for clarification instead of jumping to conclusions like that
I do apologise.

To save me from making another mistake, could you say what word correctly represents the "doubts" you have?
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Post by Guest Tue 25 Aug 2015, 2:25 pm

Nadal!

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Post by LuvSports! Tue 25 Aug 2015, 2:26 pm

Not all indoor courts are fast. 
Not many are really from now on.

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Post by temporary21 Tue 25 Aug 2015, 2:26 pm

Does it matter? Its probably the same feeling Yvonne has about it. This is what I mean, you dont need to sound so sarcy about it

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Post by Guest Tue 25 Aug 2015, 2:31 pm

There's no sarcasm from what I see. It was just a question.


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Post by bogbrush Tue 25 Aug 2015, 2:50 pm

temporary21 wrote:Does it matter? Its probably the same feeling Yvonne has about it. This is what I mean, you dont need to sound so sarcy about it
Hang on a sec.... you just took me to task quite abruptly for misrepresenting you and telling me to get clarification next time. And now when I do, politely, you call me sarcy, and say it doesn't matter.

All I'm asking for is an answer to the post. Will you not do that?
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Post by temporary21 Tue 25 Aug 2015, 2:58 pm

Oh I do apologise, ill give this my full attention then...

Im not sure the Anderson version, (not the other ones!) was a legitimate one, take the context of the player out, and I'd have probably thought he was taking liberty with his movements during the serve.

You happy now! Can I go?

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Post by lags72 Tue 25 Aug 2015, 3:01 pm

temporary21 wrote:The Anderson one I have some doubt about, unworthy or unsporting were words I never once said or even suggested, is that what all the fuss was about? Next time just ask for clarification instead of jumping to conclusions like that

I guess it's not too surprising that whenever thoughts and views are expressed with a variety of possible nuances, there will be a good bit of room for misunderstandings.

Whilst perfectly true that the words 'unworthy' or 'unsporting' may not have been used directly by temp, the claim that these were 'never even suggested' is perhaps not so clear-cut or convincing.

If a phrase such as 'close to hindrance' is used to describe a behavioural tactic of any particular player, then I imagine readers could be forgiven for thinking that the comment was intended as much more a denouncement of such behaviour than a vote of endorsement.

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Post by temporary21 Tue 25 Aug 2015, 3:05 pm

Yes but, remember, I did not say "deliberately" close to hindrance, his over eagerness might have resulted in that. Hindrance is quite often a mistake or an accident.

Im sorry if you felt that way, but when youre close to tears tyring to defend something from multiple people, when you dont even know why theyre angry, because as it turns out they completely misunderstood, and then demand an explanation, its kinda hard to do it correctly.

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Post by Johnyjeep Tue 25 Aug 2015, 3:14 pm

The other day you talked about being sick of treading on egg shells. And yet here you are placing others on exactly that for no real reason other than asking for clarification of your views. Which was your suggestion.

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Post by temporary21 Tue 25 Aug 2015, 3:22 pm

Is it too much to just ask in a friendly manner for once? Its like people are in the dock when they disagree. I dont really understand what you mean tbh jj, I feel like on eggshells whenever i respond to you, so its hardly surprising that it feels the same way to you.

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Post by lags72 Tue 25 Aug 2015, 3:50 pm

In light of Johnyjeep's comments and the response that then followed from temp : I would say a better analogy is that you should perhaps consider yourself in the witness stand temp, rather than "in the dock". No harm in that.

My point being that your views on the now infamous new return of serve tactic have been less than explicit, and indeed have been ambiguous at times ; so you should hardly be surprised or offended if posters look politely (with no evidence of sarcasm) for further clarification.

Maybe things would have been simpler if you had had the conviction to state definitively whether you felt the behaviour was wrong or not rather than what seemed to some like dancing around the matter with thinly-veiled negative comments. Nothing wrong at all with negative comments of course, if expressed courteously and calmly ; but most helpful of all, with clarity too.


Last edited by lags72 on Tue 25 Aug 2015, 4:37 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)

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Post by bogbrush Tue 25 Aug 2015, 3:58 pm

temporary21 wrote:Yes but, remember, I did not say "deliberately" close to hindrance, his over eagerness might have resulted in that. Hindrance is quite often a mistake or an accident.

Im sorry if you felt that way, but when youre close to tears tyring to defend something from multiple people, when you dont even know why theyre angry, because as it turns out they completely misunderstood, and then demand an explanation, its kinda hard to do it correctly.

I feel we need a thread to establish where players should be deemed to be hindering each other, intentionally or not.

I certainly feel that Djokovic came very close to hindering Federer in the Wimbledon final by continually returning the ball on serves. I grant it might not have been intended to hinder, but the effect was nonetheless so. I hope he reconsiders this should they meet in the USO final.

Wink
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Post by Johnyjeep Tue 25 Aug 2015, 4:06 pm

Oh I'm never on eggshells!! It's an anonymous internet forum Temp!!

In all honesty..I think you just over mod - if that's a phrase. And get yourself into a muddle as a result. Which then makes you look foolish unnecessarily so (which is not to say you are a fool).

Saying BB was sarcy (which he wasn't) and then when BB did what you asked and requesting clarification, you were extremely sarcastic. Which came across a bit silly really.

Now none of that is unfriendly btw. Just how it comes across.

We can leave it on what you think of this new.play regarding return of serve. You seem to think it OK (I think). But just remember that if the returner is putting the server off, the server can pull out of the service motion if he feels hard done to. The server still always has control. So there's no harm done. Once the serve is in motion, he can't possibly watch the ball and his.opponent at the same time. So again, no problem.

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Post by Jahu Tue 25 Aug 2015, 4:31 pm

legendkillarV2 wrote:Nadal!

Who? Laugh

History, sadly I loved him when he kicked Djoko in his nuts Wink
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Post by Jahu Tue 25 Aug 2015, 4:36 pm

Did I briefly read a comment that LK was not feeling well or has been cured or something?

Where is it? Just so I know how is he feeling now Hug
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Post by Jeremy_Kyle Tue 25 Aug 2015, 9:13 pm

Are you guys serious, taking the serve early is what, a hindrance for the server?? Shocked
Don't think even Socal in his wildest anti-federer period has ever come out with something as stupid as this.
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