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US Open Day 5 - Shall I Neel and ask her to Marray me? Or shall I just Peyer and give her the Haas Keys?

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Post by HM Murdock Fri 04 Sep 2015, 7:02 am

First topic message reminder :

Order of play
http://www.usopen.org/en_US/scores/schedule/index.html?promo=topnav

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Post by bogbrush Sat 05 Sep 2015, 11:31 am

temporary21 wrote:Too soon yet again. Its not like this is a surprise, this is no different from Roger v Robredo...

Suddenly were concluding that Nadal was 1, never that good a player and 2 was never very strong mentally, and 3, never rejigged his game? How did he overturn what happened in 2011 then eh?

all because hes had one bad year?

Total

Boll*cks

Basically

Bloke cant volley? He absolutely can, he can hit every shot in the book, just because he cant now doesnt wipe away how good he was. You have to be a pretty darn good player to make Roger your bunny, no gimmick play will give you that.

1. Nadal dominated because he was the greatest physical specimen the game has ever seen, or may ever see. Nobody has ever combined the strength, speed and stamina.
2. That allowed him to dominate Federer.
3. And allowed him to have great mental strength.
4. He no longer has this physical domination.
5. A volleyer is not just a guy who can volley.
6. Federer / Robredo was a year of injury (unlike Rafa) and Federer has the resources to change, (unlike Rafa).
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Post by JuliusHMarx Sat 05 Sep 2015, 11:32 am

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Yeah Julius, he certainly loves playing no doubt about that but the love and attention clearly matters to him dont you think?

No more than any other player - but they play for themselves not for anybody else. Did Teddy Sheringham play long than other players because the love and attention of fans mattered more to him than, say, Paul Scholes? No - it's because he loved playing the game and could still play it at a high enough level to satisfy himself.

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Post by CaledonianCraig Sat 05 Sep 2015, 11:33 am

temporary21 wrote:As a fan of tennis, not just one bloke, its a shame to see such an ignorant view to such a great player, whos given me so many great matches.

Power goes, because the body isnt ready, not being in extreme pain does not equate to you being fully fit...

The only way that comes back is with time, more importantly time to ready your body in pre season, something he didnt have this year.

Bloke ALREADY revamped his game where it needs to be in 2013, but he needs his body back to do it.

I agree with much of this. But will we see Rafa putting together an unbeaten run in October/November as Murray did last year minus full pre-season training. I seriously doubt it and also Murray last year could still dig out QF's at slams whereas Rafa has been nowhere near that level coming back from a lesser fitness issue than Murray had. That tells me Rafa's issues are more than just a physical thing.
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Post by bogbrush Sat 05 Sep 2015, 11:33 am

temporary21 wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
temporary21 wrote:Doesnt work. It depends on what you call a chicken, whatever the progenitor was to a chicken may have evolved into something that lay eggs. In that case, the evolved thing is a chicken.... and came first...
er....... No.

Creatures don't evolve themselves, they reproduce something that is different from them via random mutation. Thus the egg came first because it was laid by the pre-chicken.
OR... the pre chicken underwent the random mutations first, not the egg, remembering random mutation happen gradually.

In short, theres more than one answer sometimes bb
In short you don't know what you're on about. The creature does not evolve, it's reproduction is the point of mutation.

If you don't believe it from me, try this.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_or_the_egg


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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sat 05 Sep 2015, 11:34 am

LS, dont jump into conclusion yet. If Fed who doesnt 'rely' on physicality needs a year to get back on track, why cant Rafa take a year too?

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Post by temporary21 Sat 05 Sep 2015, 11:37 am

1 You never watched Rafa in 2013 then.
2 He dominated him because he was a stronger competitor than Roger, and Federer folded to him
3 Mental strength comes form confidence, but also your strength as a person, its laughable to to think he doesn't have mental strength, in fact its insulting!
4 Hes 30 and has a lot of injuries, and no training block... stating the obvious basically
5 There are other ways to play tennis than volley bb, adapting doesn't mean turn into a volleyer...
6 bo*cks on both counts. Rafa clearly isnt 100% and he already has adapted.

Frankly its extraordinary how deluded someone can be. This guy whos got 14 slams and makes Roger look like an idiot when they play, somehow must be just some lucky mental midget who can barely hit the ball and just runs, and apparently isnt allowed to be injured whilst mono and back problems are touted like zimbabwe dollars for another.

Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Ive no desire to speak to someone like that anymore.

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Post by temporary21 Sat 05 Sep 2015, 11:39 am

Right so something reprodces... that makes the chicken that lays the egg

That doesnt mean THAT thing laid an egg to make that chicken, because as you say, it didnt undergo that mutation.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sat 05 Sep 2015, 11:39 am

CC i thought most of us here agree that its not so much physical but rather confidence issue here? So, he may take a longer time than Murray to get back to a decent level. Murray is better than Rafa post USo season so dont expect much from Rafa now, probably until he plays on clay again in Feb?

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Post by lags72 Sat 05 Sep 2015, 11:40 am

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Its OK as long as Fed is happy winning Masters!

I'm not sure about that. Only he knows.

But whether he is, or is not, it's pretty much an irrelevance as far as any comparison with Rafa is concerned, and given the differing stages of their respective careers, it's Rafa who should be setting higher standards anyway.

Federer at the advanced age of 34 is at least still winning Masters and making Slam Finals. I guess the problem/concern for a much younger Rafa is that this year he is no longer managing to do either of those things. Even when totally free of injury (as he tells us himself).


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Post by bogbrush Sat 05 Sep 2015, 11:42 am

temporary21 wrote:1 You never watched Rafa in 2013 then.
2 He dominated him because he was a stronger competitor than Roger, and Federer folded to him
3 Mental strength comes form confidence, but also your strength as a person, its laughable to to think he doesn't have mental strength, in fact its insulting!
4 Hes 30 and has a lot of injuries, and no training block... stating the obvious basically
5 There are other ways to play tennis than volley bb, adapting doesn't mean turn into a volleyer...
6 bo*cks on both counts. Rafa clearly isnt 100% and he already has adapted.

Frankly its extraordinary how deluded someone can be. This guy whos got 14 slams and makes Roger look like an idiot when they play, somehow must be just some lucky mental midget who can barely hit the ball and just runs, and apparently isnt allowed to be injured whilst mono and back problems are touted like zimbabwe dollars for another.

Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes  Ive no desire to speak to someone like that anymore.
Too emotional, there's an attempt going on here to talk facts, not fanboy jibes.

Thanks for telling me you don't want to talk to me.
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Post by lags72 Sat 05 Sep 2015, 11:49 am

It's better if you try and take your personal emotion out of it when debating, temp, and stick to the tennis !


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Post by TheMessi Sat 05 Sep 2015, 11:49 am

Nadal had quite a few close 5 setters in the past....though on average the 5th set itself was not so close as Nadal's stamina was far superior to the rest. Why is his stamina weaker nowadays? or have others caught up?

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Post by bogbrush Sat 05 Sep 2015, 11:50 am

temporary21 wrote:Right so something reprodces... that makes the chicken that lays the egg

That doesnt mean THAT thing laid an egg to make that chicken, because as you say, it didnt undergo that mutation.
Creature A can be the progenitor of creature B. Creature A cannot itself become creature B.


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Post by bogbrush Sat 05 Sep 2015, 11:52 am

TheMessi wrote:Nadal had quite a few close 5 setters in the past....though on average the 5th set itself was not so close as Nadal's stamina was far superior to the rest. Why is his stamina weaker nowadays? or have others caught up?
id say his stamina is suffering partly because it's being tested because his power is reduced and he's not dominating rallies.

Put it this way, he was running around like normal last night but his shots were toast.
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Post by HM Murdock Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:01 pm

Belovedluckyboy wrote:LS, dont jump into conclusion yet.   If Fed who doesnt 'rely' on physicality needs a year to get back on track, why cant Rafa take a year too?
Federer didn't take a year to get back on track. He had a year in which he was playing through injury. Once the injury was better, he rose back up the rankings.

Rafa is not injured and has not been so for months.

You're not comparing like with like.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:03 pm

The Messi, Rafa only had some tough five setters at the AO and im not sure he outlasted his opponents there ( AO09 for eg he didnt outlast Verdasco or Fed; in AO2012 Novak was as fit as him). Rafa didnt outlast his 5 sets opponents at Wimbledon where the matches there were not decided by physical fitness.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:05 pm

Julius, you dont know Fed so your guess is as good as mine.

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Post by HM Murdock Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:09 pm

Re: stamina.

It's not about duration, it's about distance.

Rafa is having to do more running these days.

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Post by It Must Be Love Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:11 pm

Nadal's 2015 is not the same as Federer's 2013, that is true; but I wouldn't write Nadal off either.

Not sure how many people watched the match, or just woke up to results in the morning, but for the latter category I'd recommend watching the fifth set.
Nadal was mentally fine, he was playing with the right attitude and didn't give much away on the big points. This was not a defeat due to mental lack of confidence like the match vs Raonic earlier this year for example.
Fognini's level in the last few sets was a joke, especially in the last set. Hitting 70+ winners given his mediocre serve (to be fair both Fognini and Nadal aren't exactly the biggest servers), is fantastic. He made some appalling mistakes too, but the 'redline' to 'shock errors' ratio was very high in favour of the former in the fifth set, if that makes sense. Fognini was hitting some ridiculous winners even when off balance and on the defence.

Obviously Nadal's aura is gone at the moment, and it won't be easy to get it back. Not impossible though. When you get a mix of a player like Fognini playing Nadal these days, he has the belief, he has the huge adrenaline of having a chance against a legend of the game, and he has the talent of Fognini. That's not a good combination. The aura is also part of the protection for top players.

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Post by LuvSports! Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:17 pm

People get the wrong idea on the whole fitness issue.

You can outlast them sure but it doesn't always mean they are physically broken.
It's the sheer mental toll of knowing that your opponent is fitter, stronger and faster than you. 
Therefore you cannot outrally them, you have to outhit or go for broke and aim for the lines.
That is incredibly mentally taxing and can impact you physically as well. 

In '11, Rafa was a mental midget vs Djoko but none of the ohters. He met someone who was his match physically, if not better (US open final set Rafa could barely move) and he sprayed the errors as he was taking more risks, something he isn't accustomed to doing. 
Djoko hit the physical ceiling in '12 aus and i dont think he's been as fit since, Rafa from post aus to fo'14, was physically fitter imo than djoko. Regained that edge.

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Post by TheMessi Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:18 pm

HM Murdock wrote:Re: stamina.

It's not about duration, it's about distance.

Rafa is having to do more running these days.
It might be also about having less time between points than in the past. Nadal still takes his time but he played this 5 setter roughly in the same time as he played his 2011 USO match v Murray which only had 4 sets and less games. So in effect he may have to play 5 sets in the time he was playing 4 in the past.
Last time Nadal lost a 5 setter being 2 sets up was in Miami 05 his last match before his OCDs set in.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:20 pm

HM, Rafa's ranking is also climbing up from 10 to 7 and he may still gain points. He was back from injury at beginning of year and not playing for most of sec half last year so natually his ranking was affected. Others are having full 52 weeks points as their ranking whilst Rafa doesnt. Just see how he fares come next year if he can finish this year without injury. Hes currently 7th in the race.

It takes time for Rafa to get back some of his confidence, just like Fed and Murray. He may not get back to his dominant best but may be in the mix for important titles.

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Post by It Must Be Love Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:21 pm

TheMessi wrote:Nadal had quite a few close 5 setters in the past....though on average the 5th set itself was not so close as Nadal's stamina was far superior to the rest. Why is his stamina weaker nowadays? or have others caught up?
I don't think stamina even came into it Ten. In the last set, Fognini would balloon a backhand in the ground, and then play 4 ridiculous points where he'd just pull of bullet forehands from anywhere on the court.
People talking about power too, but I don't think Nadal is lacking power. His depth was also fine. I think people are forgetting that Nadal even at his best wasn't aiming to get every ball bouncing on the baseline, he doesn't need to be in charge of every rally.
His issue is mainly his reliability on forehand. His forehand has huge topspin, meaning it doesn't go through the court as quick, but Nadal compensated for that with it being ultra-reliable. But now the forehand is as reliable as any other top player. I'm not sure if this is something that's just gone with age, or whether something that can come back.

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Post by It Must Be Love Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:24 pm

Ten, LS; watch the match, we may have a disagreement here- but I don't personally feel that the defeat had anything to do with either stamina or more mental state.
As I explained earlier Nadal was mentally fine, a good attitude, and didn't give away points with double faults in big moments or anything of the such. In the 5th set he showed great fight I thought.
Nor was the defeat due to stamina. Fognini was hitting massive winners or missing easy shots early on in the rally. Even when Fognini was on the defence he was hitting massive winners. Stamina never came into it.

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Post by TheMessi Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:26 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:
TheMessi wrote:Nadal had quite a few close 5 setters in the past....though on average the 5th set itself was not so close as Nadal's stamina was far superior to the rest. Why is his stamina weaker nowadays? or have others caught up?
I don't think stamina even came into it Ten. In the last set, Fognini would balloon a backhand in the ground, and then play 4 ridiculous points where he'd just pull of bullet forehands from anywhere on the court.
People talking about power too, but I don't think Nadal is lacking power. His depth was also fine. I think people are forgetting that Nadal even at his best wasn't aiming to get every ball bouncing on the baseline, he doesn't need to be in charge of every rally.
His issue is mainly his reliability on forehand. His forehand has huge topspin, meaning it doesn't go through the court as quick, but Nadal compensated for that with it being ultra-reliable. But now the forehand is as reliable as any other top player. I'm not sure if this is something that's just gone with age, or whether something that can come back.
Players often play great v Nadal when his balls lose some zip. Why was Fog playing better with 3 sets in his legs than when he started? federer played great too in Miami 05 winning the last 6 games of the 5 setter. I think you are underestimating Nadal's main weapon: his spiny balls.

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Post by LuvSports! Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:27 pm

What was his depth like? The power of his shots? 
How does that compare to '13? 
Stamina comes into that.

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Post by It Must Be Love Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:28 pm

TheMessi wrote:
Players often  play great v Nadal when his balls lose some zip. Why was Fog playing better with 3 sets in his legs than when he started? federer played great too in Miami 05 winning the last 6 games of the 5 setter. I think you are underestimating Nadal's main weapon: his spiny balls.
I thought Nadal actually played his best set in the 5th, he was hitting the ball best there.

LS; I talked about his depth and power a few posts earlier.

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Post by LuvSports! Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:29 pm

To me, this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfY1V35cHMw - shows his depth is poor and allows Fog to dictate and attack.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:30 pm

I doubt Rafa was physically fitter than Novak when he was away injured most part of 2012 and 2014. Dont forget, Rafa's legs were shot after that AO2012 leading to his long layoff after Wimbledon that year. He had to rebuild his fitness and stamina all over again when he came back early 2013, how could he he fitter than Novak then?

In fact it was then that Rafa decided to play more agressively and so all his successes that year in 2013. He started 2014 well but had that back injury that affected his 2014 season, not to mention his wrist injury. How could he be fitter than Novak??

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Post by lags72 Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:33 pm

TheMessi wrote:

.......................................................


I think you are underestimating Nadal's main weapon: his spiny balls.

Hmm....... First I've heard of this one !

But is this really a weapon..... ? Or another medical-related condition ....?

Cool

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Post by sirfredperry Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:37 pm

I have spent most of the year waiting for Rafa to come storming back and thought that he would have a good USO. What's most disappointing about this latest setback is that he was two sets and a break up. A loss from here is, in some ways, even worse than getting annihilated in straight sets by some huge hitter playing incredible tennis.
What we have to consider is - is this year for Rafa like Fed in 2013 and Murray in 2014? In other words, a still-top-10 year but well short of a normal high performance.
Or, more worryingly, is Rafa past his best and can he get back up there and recover as Fed and Murray have?

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:39 pm

IMBL, what Rafa lacked of in the 5th set was a sound tactic - by then he had none. He kept doing the same thing ie hitting to Fog's FH when time and again Fog would hit a FHDTL. Its like Rafa wasnt thinking clearly out there.

Yes he did fight and wasnt overcome by nerve at that time which was good; at least his competitive spirit was alive but unlike the Rafa of the past, now he couldnt make the right shot selection out there.

I think a few more tight matches against quality opponents and him working and thinking his way out to win would help him.

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Post by HM Murdock Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:41 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:
TheMessi wrote:Nadal had quite a few close 5 setters in the past....though on average the 5th set itself was not so close as Nadal's stamina was far superior to the rest. Why is his stamina weaker nowadays? or have others caught up?
I don't think stamina even came into it Ten.  
Unusual abbreviation for "TheMessi"...

Do we have the presence of a famed former poster?

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Post by temporary21 Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:42 pm

He wasnt, noones fitter than Novak, in 2013, he lost that semi final at the French which was terribly close and he lost his confidence. He lasted longer than Rafa, but Rafa had adapted his game by us open to be very aggressive.

Dont beleive that Rafa can actually play tennis? Go watch that final. He was stopped by that back injury at the start of 2014, hasnt really been quite the same since, the wrist went too, and he didnt get a training block to strengthen back.

Nothing sinister or meaningful about his place in the game about it really. It could be gone for good, or maybe if he gets a proper training block, it might come back a little, or maybe hes too old, itll be fun to see.

Its this odd necessity from some to degrade his achievements every time he loses as though "thats the real rafa" that is so disgusting to see as a fan of tennis in general.


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Post by It Must Be Love Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:42 pm

HM Murdock wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:
TheMessi wrote:Nadal had quite a few close 5 setters in the past....though on average the 5th set itself was not so close as Nadal's stamina was far superior to the rest. Why is his stamina weaker nowadays? or have others caught up?
I don't think stamina even came into it Ten.  
Unusual abbreviation for "TheMessi"...

Do we have the presence of a famed former poster?
Sorry that was autocorrect. Pardon TheMessi, he's new to tennis and we're all helping him learn about the sport, it's really sweet in a way.


Last edited by It Must Be Love on Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by bogbrush Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:43 pm

So now Fognini plays World class tennis? Nonsense, he'll be dumped out by Lopez. He lost 7 straight hardcourt matches before this week.

In some points he barely ha do move to hit shots, Nadal just dumps easy forehands short. That forehand is barely top ten standard now.

Why? Appendicitis? Stem cell injections in 2014? Confidence? None of the above?

I tick the last one.


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Post by It Must Be Love Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:44 pm

bogbrush wrote:So now Fognini plays World class tennis?
We may have to agree to disagree on this, but I think Fognini played better yesterday than Rosol in 2012 Wimby.

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Post by Guest Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:44 pm

Well they say the body is the first to go and then the mind. 

We hear these players have played with conditions that would fell the mortal man.

I think the mind has finally gone with this one.

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Post by HM Murdock Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:46 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:
HM Murdock wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:
TheMessi wrote:Nadal had quite a few close 5 setters in the past....though on average the 5th set itself was not so close as Nadal's stamina was far superior to the rest. Why is his stamina weaker nowadays? or have others caught up?
I don't think stamina even came into it Ten.  
Unusual abbreviation for "TheMessi"...

Do we have the presence of a famed former poster?
Sorry that was autocorrect. Pardon TheMessi, he's new to tennis and we're all helping him learn about the sport, it's really sweet in a way.
Good recovery, Kim.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:47 pm

The Messi, having less time between points may have affected Rafa, as he may feel rushed and not able to think clearly. However, it seems like Rafa is slowly adapting to the quicker time between points now. I think he'll get used to it some day, hopefully soon.

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Post by Guest Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:47 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:
bogbrush wrote:So now Fognini plays World class tennis?  
We may have to agree to disagree on this, but I think Fognini played better yesterday than Rosol in 2012 Wimby.

I recall an interview by Croft a couple of years ago in which she asked some of the top pros of the men's game who the best ballstriker on tour was and the feedback was Fognini was. That's in the age of Federer. Just saying.

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Post by bogbrush Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:53 pm

Foggy had never won a hard court match against a top ten player in 17 matches. Ever.

Before the U.S. Open his run of hardcourt matches were losses to Kokkanakis, Monfils, Sock, Manninaro, Nedovyesov, Gonzales and Del Potro. No wins on hardcourt at all. I haven't bothered checking 2014.

I don't doubt he's a super clay court player but he's garbage off the dirt. He won this because he had so much time to play off short balls.

Edit: checked 2014, it's equally abysmal.
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Post by break_in_the_fifth Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:58 pm

Never rated Nadal even when he was winning everything. To me he's not good in the way the other players are. I go along with the sentiments that knowing you can just stand back and take no risk and just outlast your opponent is a massive leg up to your mental strength. His game was just button bashing on a fighting game to me in the way that his forehand would hurt no matter where in the court it landed because of the crazy spin. Regardless of the occasions it might have been accurate, it never needed to be. His fitness allowed him to wait at the back for the ball to slow down and then just loop it somewhere in the cross court direction ad infinitum.

I think I can see why people like him and think he's the best ever. Even with his record now you could argue he is. It doesn't matter if he loses now, he already won all the times it mattered.

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Post by break_in_the_fifth Sat 05 Sep 2015, 1:00 pm

Fognini looked like he was hitting the ball really clean in the extended highlights I saw.

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Post by Guest Sat 05 Sep 2015, 1:01 pm

But then isn't the argument that talented players get eaten up by runners and that lack of achievement of results are not a reflection of the talent? 

The whole debate becomes worthless with one too many caveats.

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Post by temporary21 Sat 05 Sep 2015, 1:06 pm

I respect what you say bitf, its not a style everyone can like.
Though I think the button mashing analogy is a little harsh. Im a button masher in fighters, it doesnt take any skill.
It DOES though take great skill and a lot of practice to do what he does, its the product of a huge amount of work off an on court.

button mashing doesnt work against skilled opposition, his works against the best opposition almost all the time.

Its like Allastair Cook, who I have lots of time for, hes not that skilled a batsman, but hes so tough, and good at what he does, that hes the highest run scorer weve ever had. It might not be pretty, but that doesnt make it less admirable

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Post by It Must Be Love Sat 05 Sep 2015, 1:11 pm

My analysis on Fognini:
He's Fognini.

That's the most rational in-depth analysis I think it's possible to do on the man.

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Post by HM Murdock Sat 05 Sep 2015, 1:14 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:My analysis on Fognini:
He's Fognini.

That's the most rational in-depth analysis I think it's possible to do on the man.
Indeed.

One could make a similar analysis for Monfils.

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Post by Guest82 Sat 05 Sep 2015, 1:19 pm

Seemingly always has to be that a player plays out of their skin to beat Nadal. Doesn't happen against Djokovic. Didn't used to happen against Federer.

I think Rafa has obviously declined to a point. Would never write him off, but it's starting to look like we should.

Federer is still making finals and is bookies 2nd favourite. Swap him for Djokovic in the draw and you might even make him favourite. Rafa was 40/1 at the start of the tournament. Fed is a lot closer to winning a GS than Rafa at the moment.

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Post by JuliusHMarx Sat 05 Sep 2015, 1:20 pm

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Julius, you dont know Fed so your guess is as good as mine.

That's true - I'm basing my opinion on interviews, but he could be lying in those.

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