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US Open Day 8 - Will Rojer need the Vasselin for his Lipsky? Will Kontinen's collide?

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Post by JuliusHMarx Mon 07 Sep 2015, 1:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

Order of play
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/22713811

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Post by laverfan Tue 08 Sep 2015, 3:09 am

summerblues wrote:And I do not realize why he was being so passive as must have seen he was the most defensive playing player left in the draw, and that should have told him something.  

All the Murray fans on v2 are adamant that he played attacking Tennis. IMVHO, his natural game has been killed completely. He is now evolving into a Djokovic+Nadal v2.0. Absolutely horrible crime against his natural talent and his coaches ought to be standing in a court of law for murdering a Tennis player of Murray's caliber.

Blaming his schedule, fatigue,... are just excuses. I would like to see Lendl or Danni come back (very unlikely though).

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Post by laverfan Tue 08 Sep 2015, 3:13 am

Isner getting ready to implode? chin

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Post by laverfan Tue 08 Sep 2015, 3:17 am

Isner out of challenges. Wow, in the third game of the set. Laugh

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Post by summerblues Tue 08 Sep 2015, 3:20 am

Fed looking a different man compared to Kohli match. Even though his serve percentage is far below Isner's, he is the only one creating BPs. No breaks as yet though.

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Post by summerblues Tue 08 Sep 2015, 3:23 am

laverfan wrote:
summerblues wrote:And I do not realize why he was being so passive as must have seen he was the most defensive playing player left in the draw, and that should have told him something.  

All the Murray fans on v2 are adamant that he played attacking Tennis. IMVHO, his natural game has been killed completely. He is now evolving into a Djokovic+Nadal v2.0. Absolutely horrible crime against his natural talent and his coaches ought to be standing in a court of law for murdering a Tennis player of Murray's caliber.
Agree with you about Andy's game, but I thought BS was really the only one who insisted Andy was aggressive enough today. I thought others - incl Andy's fans - mostly agreed he was not.

I was shocked when I saw him in Cincy how defensive he was there, and then he continued in the same fashion here.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Tue 08 Sep 2015, 3:25 am

Fat hope of Murray being a Novak+Nadal v2 Both of them are much more aggressive than Murray, v2 and esp v1 of them.

Murray is not an offensive player by nature but uses his guile and varieties to out maneuver his opponents, hes certainly not as offensive minded as Rafa or Novak.

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Post by summerblues Tue 08 Sep 2015, 3:26 am

summerblues wrote:Fed looking a different man compared to Kohli match.  Even though his serve percentage is far below Isner's, he is the only one creating BPs.  No breaks as yet though.
...and just as I say it, Fed promptly goes 0-40 on his serve.  Recovers though and holds.

Not sure which of the two is having home crowd advantage.

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Post by summerblues Tue 08 Sep 2015, 3:27 am

Belovedluckyboy wrote:hes certainly not as offensive minded as Rafa or Novak.
Which is really something, as neither of those two is exactly offensive-minded either.

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Post by Born Slippy Tue 08 Sep 2015, 3:45 am

summerblues wrote:
Born Slippy wrote:
summerblues wrote:
Born Slippy wrote:Utter rubbish - tactics were pretty much perfect.
Certainly not.

Totally wrong.
What makes you say that?

If you had a scouting report on Anderson it would say:

- Great first serve
- Decent second but attackable
- Huge forehand but tends to implode under pressure
- Solid backhand but generally a safe zone
- Good movement for a big man but susceptible to the drop shot
- Poor hands at the net and generally unable to manufacture anything out of the ordinary
- Below average returns. Won't put you under pressure on first serve. Will try and apply pressure to your second but likely to be erratic

Murray's tactics were spot on to deal with the above. He varied his serve well (particularly the 2nd - changing speed, spin and placement constantly). He tried to get in as many rallies as possible on the first serve and be more aggressive on the 2nd. He took charge of rallies wherever possible and changed direction frequently in rallies.

However, Kev significantly upped his second serve. He was hitting constantly about 115 mph under pressure and in the last two sets was serving at around 75% first serves. Despite Murray changing positions, the bombs kept coming. Even when Murray got into a rally, Anderson was hitting consistently deep off both wings - his backhand was as powerful as I can recall and some of the DTL he hit under pressure were incredible. There were individual return points Andy could have executed better ( the missed volley at the start of the 4th ultimately looks very critical) but the general tactics and variety was sound. I do not see what more Andy could have done to get more breaks.

In Murray's service games, he could have got a higher proportion of first serves. However, Anderson was constantly returning anything that wasn't an ace with interest - far beyond any returning display I've seen from him before. Because of that, he was constantly on the front foot and Murray was unable to dictate as much as I'm sure he would have liked. Despite that, he only coughed up 7 break points (most of which were gained by KA's brilliance).

Make no mistake, Murray's tactics were spot on. They would have beaten a normal Kevin Anderson with ease. They were sufficient to push an Anderson who redlined his game for all but a 20 min spell at the end of the second to over 4 hours of magnificent tennis.

I am highly critical of Murray often when he loses. However, this isn't one of those times. He could have executed better on the odd point but sometimes you just lose to an inspired opponent and this was one of those occasions.

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Post by laverfan Tue 08 Sep 2015, 4:07 am

Born Slippy wrote:However, Kev significantly upped his second serve. He was hitting constantly about 115 mph under pressure and in the last two sets was serving at around 75% first serves. Despite Murray changing positions, the bombs kept coming. Even when Murray got into a rally, Anderson was hitting consistently deep off both wings - his backhand was as powerful as I can recall and some of the DTL he hit under pressure were incredible. There were individual return points Andy could have executed better ( the missed volley at the start of the 4th ultimately looks very critical) but the general tactics and variety was sound. I do not see what more Andy could have done to get more breaks.

In Murray's service games, he could have got a higher proportion of first serves. However, Anderson was constantly returning anything that wasn't an ace with interest - far beyond any returning display I've seen from him before. Because of that, he was constantly on the front foot and Murray was unable to dictate as much as I'm sure he would have liked. Despite that, he only coughed up 7 break points (most of which were gained by KA's brilliance).

Make no mistake, Murray's tactics were spot on. They would have beaten a normal Kevin Anderson with ease. They were sufficient to push an Anderson who redlined his game for all but a 20 min spell at the end of the second to over 4 hours of magnificent tennis.

I am highly critical of Murray often when he loses. However, this isn't one of those times. He could have executed better on the odd point but sometimes you just lose to an inspired opponent and this was one of those occasions.

1. No plan B when Andesron upped his game. -1
2. Unforced Errors - Anderson 57, Murray 20. Is this aggression or lack thereof? chin -1
3. Distance covered (feet) - Anderson - 9160.0, Murray - 10364.6 - this is chasing the ball... Wink == Defensive player.
4. Net Points - Anderson 41/58 (71%), Murray - 18/24 (75%) - Less net approaches = ?

I suggest all Murray fans, who think Murray was aggressive, watch the match again. Scouting reports are just that. Players need to rely on their input on court to innovate and solve problems, improvise, etc.


Last edited by laverfan on Tue 08 Sep 2015, 4:11 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by laverfan Tue 08 Sep 2015, 4:08 am

Federer takes the second set, after Isner had mini breaks.

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Post by summerblues Tue 08 Sep 2015, 4:08 am

2nd set, 2nd TB to Fed. This was much closer but what fabulous last two points from Fed.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Tue 08 Sep 2015, 4:10 am

SB, both Rafa and Novak were more offensive minded in the past than their current version. Still they're more offensive now than Murray.

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Post by Born Slippy Tue 08 Sep 2015, 4:11 am

What's the Plan B when someone plays like Anderson? I will watch how Fed dealt with Cilic last year - sure that will give me some ideas.

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Post by laverfan Tue 08 Sep 2015, 4:13 am

BLB... Nadal is much more offensive now, with his racquet adjustments with weights and net approaches and run-around-FH. It just a pity he is changing this late in his career.

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Post by summerblues Tue 08 Sep 2015, 4:16 am

Born Slippy wrote:He took charge of rallies wherever possible
This is one thing he certainly did not do. Yes, there were many points on Kev's serve where he could do nothing. But even on his own serve, and on Kev's serve whenever they got into neutral rally, it was Kev who was desperately looking for an opening while Andy was mostly happy to rally. Yes, he may have been changing direction and hoping to outmaneuver Kev, but he was in no way looking to outright take the initiative.

Also, the way I read your summary, it sort of sounds to me not so much that you think that Andy was aggressive but rather that you think that passive play was the right call against Kev.

Even if he may have thought going into the match that would work, as LF says, why not at least have a plan B? As I said, going into the match, he was the most defensive player left in the draw. The success of other attackers should have told him there was at least a chance that Kevin would be successful if he was just trying to outplay him with passive-ish play.

Funnily, Murray did look quite aggressive against Nole in Canada - maybe because he knew from the word go that there was no way he would outlast him. But not in a single match since then (at least not the ones I have seen).

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Post by laverfan Tue 08 Sep 2015, 4:20 am

Born Slippy wrote:What's the Plan B when someone plays like Anderson? I will watch how Fed dealt with Cilic last year - sure that will give me some ideas.

Watch Federer play Isner in 2015 and learn. The past is done. The Cilic match is history and cannot be changed. Did someone watch Anderson vs Jaziri in the Murray team? chin Anderson played exactly the same vs Murray as he did vs Jaziri.

How to hit slices, bring Anderson in, pass him, lob him. Murray has a very spinny FH. Use it. Murray has an excellent drop shot, use it.

BS.. I have no interest in belaboring my points. Murray fans can continue in thinking what they like. As far as I am concerned, Murray is out of USO 2015, when he could have gone further.

BanBro hinted at the schedule. Why? Ranking? Did it really matter either way? Did I not see Murray fans call him the real #2? Is he, really?

Did someone really scout Federer at Wimbledon before the Murray match? Laugh I wanted Murray to beat Federer on Grass.


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Post by Born Slippy Tue 08 Sep 2015, 4:25 am

No, I most definitely do not think he was passive. He hit with the type of controlled aggression I would expect from him in any match of this nature. I haven't yet seen a suggestion as to what Plan B would be to deal with a ball basher playing like Anderson. The simple answer is that there is none. You try and protect your own serve and hope their level dips.

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Post by laverfan Tue 08 Sep 2015, 4:28 am

BS... we can agree to disagree and move on. The loss is a cold hard fact of life. A winnable match that he lost due to (IMVHO) defensive approach.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Tue 08 Sep 2015, 4:28 am

LF, perhaps there're 3 or even 4 versions of Nadal - v1 the most offensive young gun Nadal from 2003 to 2004; v2 the defensive/offensive Nadal from 2005 to 2009; v3 the more offensive version of v2 from 2010 to 2014 and finally the v4 Nadal of 2015!

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Tue 08 Sep 2015, 4:40 am

Not watching the Berdych vs Gasquet match but Gasquet is 2 sets to one up and is leading in the fourth set. Wow, didnt expect Gasquet playing so well esp against a top 10 player.

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Post by summerblues Tue 08 Sep 2015, 4:44 am

Fed fails to break from 0-40. Crying or Very sad

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Post by summerblues Tue 08 Sep 2015, 4:46 am

Gasquet has found decent form lately. He also beat Stan in QF at Wimbledon.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Tue 08 Sep 2015, 4:49 am

So Gasquet wins the match and will be the QF opponent of the winner of Fed/Isner match.

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Post by summerblues Tue 08 Sep 2015, 4:56 am

Finally, Fed breaks, takes the set 7:5 and is done in straight sets. Very well played from Fed today.

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Post by summerblues Tue 08 Sep 2015, 4:57 am

Four SHBHs in the QF - very nice!

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Post by summerblues Tue 08 Sep 2015, 4:58 am

I do not think Fed tried his half-volley returns today.

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Post by laverfan Tue 08 Sep 2015, 5:05 am

summerblues wrote:I do not think Fed tried his half-volley returns today.

Isner wanted to get off the court before midnight. Laugh Glad Federer left the SABRE at home and just brought the racquet instead.

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Post by laverfan Tue 08 Sep 2015, 5:06 am

Shot of the match was Isner's volley which spun back into Isner's side after bouncing on the Federer side. Very US Open Day 8 - Will Rojer need the Vasselin for his Lipsky? Will Kontinen's collide? - Page 5 3845856932

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Post by laverfan Tue 08 Sep 2015, 5:07 am

Belovedluckyboy wrote:LF, perhaps there're 3 or even 4 versions of Nadal - v1 the most offensive young gun Nadal from 2003 to 2004; v2 the defensive/offensive Nadal from 2005 to 2009; v3 the more offensive version of v2 from 2010 to 2014 and finally the v4 Nadal of 2015!

For me the 2003-2009 Nadal is what I like the best.

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Post by bogbrush Tue 08 Sep 2015, 5:24 am

I had to pack the Murray match up at the start if the 4th but I'm very surprised he lost - not in play, because Anderson was doing all the pressing, but I really thought Anderson was showing signs of wilting.

I can understand all the love for Anderson's tennis as he played great but this guy just got done 1 & 1 by Federer at Cincinatti - I expect there was something in that match that showed his limitations, and I'll hazard a guess it wasn't what Andy brought tonight.

I can't remembering reading laverfan so outspoken as on this thread and she's right. There should be some variant of Cluedo based on who murdered the creative Andy Murray: was it Miss Mauresmo in the gym with the treadmill; or Professor Bjorkman in the conference room with the whiteboard? Perhaps it was even Mrs Murray! Or was it suicide? Hours of tedium for all the forum!!
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Post by bogbrush Tue 08 Sep 2015, 5:38 am

Meanwhile, delighted to see Federer get past Big John, and break him for the first time here since 2013. Imagine, had the third set been a tie break win, the record he'd have had going into USO 2016?

Hopefully Fed showed up physically.

Also made up to see Gasket beat Berdych, and not for the Fed match up, but for the guy. He's played great recently so well done to him.
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Post by Guest Tue 08 Sep 2015, 6:59 am

What did I miss?

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Post by bogbrush Tue 08 Sep 2015, 7:06 am

legendkillarV2 wrote:What did I miss?
Not much, quiet night.
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Post by temporary21 Tue 08 Sep 2015, 7:25 am

Don't need cleudo. What killed old fashoined variety murray was grand slams. Romanticism aside the old variety murray was branded a loser, it was this new guy who won, and can still very we'll win slams. One thing he's always kept though is his guys and he fought to the grim end yesterday. You've got to be proud of that


I must say though. I didn't rate big kev but I reckon he's a top tenner for the next couple of years, he stepped up.

Fed match was as expected, I imagine jus serve looked better?

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Post by bogbrush Tue 08 Sep 2015, 7:33 am

You can't wins Slams with variety and attack?
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Post by temporary21 Tue 08 Sep 2015, 7:36 am

You can. Murray didn't start though till he laid the platform of a rock solid defence

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Post by Guest Tue 08 Sep 2015, 7:36 am

I would have expected Federer to beat Kevin Anderson as Federer normally does.  Throughout his career Federer has had a knack of getting passed quite easily the giant big hitters.  Federer doesn't fluster, remains focussed, puts the ball in the right places.  Anderson gave Djokovic a scare at Wimbledon and dumps Murray out of the US Open.   Murray mentally wobbled in the second set and dropped serve, while he wasn't able to sustain an effort to break Anderson when it mattered.  Overall Murray not good enough.  Both Djokovic and Federer would have beaten him this tournament.

Things are a changing.  This is what the tennis world is looking like post big four and it is the "old timers" stepping up, not some young gun sweeping all before him.


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Post by banbrotam Tue 08 Sep 2015, 7:40 am

laverfan wrote:
Born Slippy wrote:What's the Plan B when someone plays like Anderson? I will watch how Fed dealt with Cilic last year - sure that will give me some ideas.

Watch Federer play Isner in 2015 and learn. The past is done. The Cilic match is history and cannot be changed. Did someone watch Anderson vs Jaziri in the Murray team? chin Anderson played exactly the same vs Murray as he did vs Jaziri.

How to hit slices, bring Anderson in, pass him, lob him. Murray has a very spinny FH. Use it. Murray has an excellent drop shot, use it.

BS.. I have no interest in belaboring my points. Murray fans can continue in thinking what they like. As far as I am concerned, Murray is out of USO 2015, when he could have gone further.

BanBro hinted at the schedule. Why? Ranking? Did it really matter either way? Did I not see Murray fans call him the real #2? Is he, really?

Did someone really scout Federer at Wimbledon before the Murray match? Laugh I wanted Murray to beat Federer on Grass.


Agree with all of this in the main. In fact you're tying into my anger about the ranking. It didn't matter. Hence (and I questioned it at the time) why on earth play Washington? Once he'd gone out early, why change your mind and enter Cincy? At what point would he have considered Washington successful enough to not play Cincy? You see my point? It's all a bit amateur hour, from someone who used to be very good at managing their schedule. Fed, probably laughing his head off, just took a lot of time off, turned up for Cincy and looks and plays ten years younger than everyone else


Also;-

Very few fans declared him as the true No.2. I argued that it was Fed actually, at the time

He can do all of what you've suggested once he realises that to play Davies Cup and then three tournaments in a 6 week spell before the open is asking for trouble - particularly as he normally only plays the two Masters

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Post by banbrotam Tue 08 Sep 2015, 7:46 am

It must be me, but has everyone forgotten that Murray had the balance perfect from the start of the clay court season up to Montreal

Yes, he had the Fed defeat at Wimbledon - but I've no issue with that, good fast conditions for the king of Wimbledon and Murray, for me, played fine (sometimes you have to admit to been beaten by the better person)

If you look at some of the previous postings about Murray's play, everyone was delighted that he'd gone back to showing his varied game, mixed with some new aggression

Not certain, I'm, judging Murray on his play at Cincy and here - simply because he's clearly, as most commentators are saying, overcooked himself

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Post by bogbrush Tue 08 Sep 2015, 7:47 am

All that "real #2" stuff is usually someone on the telly, more often than not Petchey, Cowan or the Grinning One. I do recall "locker room #1" a long time ago, and that was definitely Sky.

Hopefully he reflects and adjusts schedule and style. As banbro says it's not long since he looked a lot better (I said at the time that I've never seen his backhand more impressive than at Montreal).

Oh...... but it wouldn't hurt to address the self-talk and foul language in court either, if anything I think he's getting worse. It's not big, or clever.


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Post by banbrotam Tue 08 Sep 2015, 7:49 am

legendkillarV2 wrote:What did I miss?


You'd have enjoyed it!! Far more frustrating than the 2011 defeat t Rafa laughing

You'd have been throwing things at the telly as Murray looking like someone who realises that they might have entered a summer tournament or two more than they should have, played pretty ordinary for 90% of the match

Kept fighting and in fairness Anderson was superb


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Post by Guest Tue 08 Sep 2015, 7:58 am

I caught the first set TB and fatigue kicked in at that point. The 108mph monster FH to clinch it was out of the top drawer. 

He's played far too many matches Andy and for Leon this must be a relief.

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Post by kingraf Tue 08 Sep 2015, 8:00 am

Losing to Anderson is basically unforgivable. Will have a look at home to see if Murray blew it, or KA levelled up. Seems to be split on here.
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Post by Guest Tue 08 Sep 2015, 8:02 am

From what I saw KR Kev went for it. First set was some quality stuff, Kev had more oooommmpppphhh in his shots.

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Post by kingraf Tue 08 Sep 2015, 8:12 am

legendkillarV2 wrote:From what I saw KR Kev went for it. First set was some quality stuff, Kev had more oooommmpppphhh in his shots.

Cheers mate. Always have to wonder at how big the difference is between playing your best, and your opponent allowing you to play your best. Looking at their match up, I don't think it's possible for both Murray and KA to play at their best at the same time, or at least for it to look like it. Still, KA probably should have put Djokovic away at Wimbledon, so he's obviously having one of those late career revivals modern tennis players apparently have
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Post by Guest Tue 08 Sep 2015, 8:24 am

I do wonder how much fizz is in the court. When they played Wimbledon 2014 Kev's 2nd serve speed was around the 104-05 mark. Last night he was getting into the teens!

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Post by Born Slippy Tue 08 Sep 2015, 8:26 am

legendkillarV2 wrote:I do wonder how much fizz is in the court. When they played Wimbledon 2014 Kev's 2nd serve speed was around the 104-05 mark. Last night he was getting into the teens!

Serve speed is timed off the racquet. The court is irrelevant.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Tue 08 Sep 2015, 8:41 am

LF, for me it depends on the surface as Rafa peak at different time on different surfaces. On clay, I certainly like peak Raa from 2008 to 2010 but not the more defensive Rafa afer; on grass from 2007 to 2010 but not after. On the HCs, Rafa was playing his best tennis from 2010 onwards and he was more aggressive than from 2005-2009.

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Post by Jahu Tue 08 Sep 2015, 8:44 am

Happy to see Kev win, sure now KingRaf will say he is as SouthAfrican as Djoko is a serbian little prince from Monaco, but thats fine, a good win for Kev Laugh

Fed looking better, will crush Gasket in 3 quick ones.

Good win for Stan too.


Go Lopez Go!!!!
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