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RSA vs Japan

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat 19 Sep - 17:03

First topic message reminder :

There's no thread for this one - I think SA so far look less than impressive. They're trying to play at a high tempo but making mistakes, whilst the Japanese are also playing at that tempo and looking promising. They're certainly hitting hard in the tackle.

RSA should eventually win at a canter, but I wonder what will be said in the aftermath. Please use this thread to discuss that.

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Post by Hood83 Sat 19 Sep - 23:38

I think the problem is that these southern hemisphere teams can't live with northern hemisphere tempo :-) (Please tell me Japan is in the northern hemisphere...)

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Post by Marshes Sat 19 Sep - 23:49

bsando wrote:Who was man of the match?

I think it was the Japanese 9

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Post by MarcusHalberstram Sun 20 Sep - 1:38

Finally got to watch the game. The greatest sporting story ever told. Still can't quite process this. If Wales beat NZ by 40 points in the final, I don't think I'd enjoy it as much as I did this. It was like watching a Rocky movie. Incredible. And what a game! What a finish! People may try and palm it off on a bad RSA performance, but get real - this was a GREAT CONTEST. This was a once in a generation sporting miracle.

I'd also (as my wife pointed out) like to say well done to the ref for helping the game to flow so well.

Go BRAVE BLOSSOMS!!!

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Post by FerN Sun 20 Sep - 4:41

Well done Japan.

Didn't see this one coming.

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Post by Rugby Fan Sun 20 Sep - 7:04

fa0019 wrote:to be honest and I know some will just say sour grapes but I don't see Japan becoming a force in the game... not without min ten of their players being foreign imports... and they will all be the dros of other nations player pool.

Yes and no. It's a long way to go for rugby in Japan but I'm not sure imports are necessarily the key.

Also, we know from the experience in other countries that imports come in all shapes and colours. Luke Thompson, for instance is Japanese - he naturalized five years ago, and holds a Japanese passport. The same goes for captain Michael Leitch, who first arrived in Japan at the age of 15, and went to school and college in Japan.

That means six of yesterday's starting pack were Japanese. Even if you only look at players with Japanese parents, you've got half the pack, and all but one of the starting back line (Craig Wing was a late withdrawal). That's a lot fewer than ten imports.

On top of that, Tonga and Fiji haven't beaten South Africa, but you don't get calls for those teams to rely on more imports.

Japanese has more varied body shapes these days through changes in diet together with a larger number of children with a foreign (non-Asian parent) The challenge for rugby is getting these kids interested in playing the game. The world youth 100m sprint champion is Japanese: Abdul Hakim Sani Brown. MLB teams already have an eye on Japan's top baseball prospect, Rui Okoye who has a Nigerian dad. As Eddie Jones said, the biggest impact on Japanese rugby will be if kids like that start giving rugby a try.

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Post by alive555 Sun 20 Sep - 7:20

This sums up the match


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Post by emack2 Sun 20 Sep - 7:42

Remember Eddie Jones wins RWCs SA2007 for example

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Post by kingraf Sun 20 Sep - 7:43

I thought I was imagining it, but Peter-Steph du Toit really did play at flank instead of Kolisi. The mind boggles sometimes.
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Post by fa0019 Sun 20 Sep - 8:27

Rugby Fan wrote:
fa0019 wrote:to be honest and I know some will just say sour grapes but I don't see Japan becoming a force in the game... not without min ten of their players being foreign imports... and they will all be the dros of other nations player pool.

Yes and no. It's a long way to go for rugby in Japan but I'm not sure imports are necessarily the key.

Also, we know from the experience in other countries that imports come in all shapes and colours. Luke Thompson, for instance is Japanese - he naturalized five years ago, and holds a Japanese passport. The same goes for captain Michael Leitch, who first arrived in Japan at the age of 15, and went to school and college in Japan.

That means six of yesterday's starting pack were Japanese. Even if you only look at players with Japanese parents, you've got half the pack, and all but one of the starting back line (Craig Wing was a late withdrawal). That's a lot fewer than ten imports.

On top of that, Tonga and Fiji haven't beaten South Africa, but you don't get calls for those teams to rely on more imports.

Japanese has more varied body shapes these days through changes in diet together with a larger number of children with a foreign (non-Asian parent) The challenge for rugby is getting these kids interested in playing the game. The world youth 100m sprint champion is Japanese: Abdul Hakim Sani Brown. MLB teams already have an eye on Japan's top baseball prospect, Rui Okoye who has a Nigerian dad. As Eddie Jones said, the biggest impact on Japanese rugby will be if kids like that start giving rugby a try.

I think the diff between the PI teams and Japan is that yes, PI teams rely hevaily on Kiwi and AUS born and raised players but crucially these chaps are almost always min half samoan, half fijian, half Tongan and usually full ancestrally linked to the country they represent. The chaps Japan tend to cap are residential qualified only.

Nevertheless have enough of the population play the game and you'll find enough giants picking the game up.... its just that a) until the sport gets mainstream and takes a share of naturally gifted kids early like the others do rather than the best of the rest ala USA and b) due to genetic differences they'll have to have a wider pool to bring the same results, they'll still struggle to compete.

This is a team that lost to Fiji, USA and Tonga 2 months ago, they beat Georgia by 3 1 month ago.

They were 80/1 to win. Buster Douglas was 42/1 when he fought Tyson.

I'm trying to think of a bigger result in sport... to be honest I simply can't.

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Post by fa0019 Sun 20 Sep - 8:30

kingraf wrote:I thought I was imagining it, but Peter-Steph du Toit really did play at flank instead of Kolisi. The mind boggles sometimes.

Meyer is a creature of habit. He can't play a small man at blindside. He simply can't. He made his bones with Danie Russouw all 120kg and 6'6 on the blind and he fully sees Kolisi as an openside size wise but not skill wise.

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Post by fa0019 Sun 20 Sep - 8:31

emack2 wrote:Remember Eddie Jones wins RWCs SA2007 for example

The boks would have won without him.

He improved them yes... but in the end they only had to play England and a fatigued by then Argentina to win the trophy. They would have won those matches regardless.

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Post by Lowlandbrit Sun 20 Sep - 8:36

sportform wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:
sportform wrote:That's why I don't like bonus points. Without bonus points and on head-to-head records, Tonga would have made the quarter finals in 2011.

Just look at today's game. Japan put in a fantastic effort to win but are only two points ahead of South Africa. What nonsense. Any win should be a four point advantage over your opponents in the actual table.
Totally agree and that's why we all love the 6N and don't want it changed.
In effect, Japan only get half a win for their great effort.
On the other hand, what would the reaction have been if Japan hadn't scored at the end and left with nothing?

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Post by GavinDragon Sun 20 Sep - 8:37

fa0019 wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
fa0019 wrote:to be honest and I know some will just say sour grapes but I don't see Japan becoming a force in the game... not without min ten of their players being foreign imports... and they will all be the dros of other nations player pool.

Yes and no. It's a long way to go for rugby in Japan but I'm not sure imports are necessarily the key.

Also, we know from the experience in other countries that imports come in all shapes and colours. Luke Thompson, for instance is Japanese - he naturalized five years ago, and holds a Japanese passport. The same goes for captain Michael Leitch, who first arrived in Japan at the age of 15, and went to school and college in Japan.

That means six of yesterday's starting pack were Japanese. Even if you only look at players with Japanese parents, you've got half the pack, and all but one of the starting back line (Craig Wing was a late withdrawal). That's a lot fewer than ten imports.

On top of that, Tonga and Fiji haven't beaten South Africa, but you don't get calls for those teams to rely on more imports.

Japanese has more varied body shapes these days through changes in diet together with a larger number of children with a foreign (non-Asian parent) The challenge for rugby is getting these kids interested in playing the game. The world youth 100m sprint champion is Japanese: Abdul Hakim Sani Brown. MLB teams already have an eye on Japan's top baseball prospect, Rui Okoye who has a Nigerian dad. As Eddie Jones said, the biggest impact on Japanese rugby will be if kids like that start giving rugby a try.

I think the diff between the PI teams and Japan is that yes, PI teams rely hevaily on Kiwi and AUS born and raised players but crucially these chaps are almost always min half samoan, half fijian, half Tongan and usually full ancestrally linked to the country they represent. The chaps Japan tend to cap are residential qualified only.

Nevertheless have enough of the population play the game and you'll find enough giants picking the game up.... its just that a) until the sport gets mainstream and takes a share of naturally gifted kids early like the others do rather than the best of the rest ala USA and b) due to genetic differences they'll have to have a wider pool to bring the same results, they'll still struggle to compete.

This is a team that lost to Fiji, USA and Tonga 2 months ago, they beat Georgia by 3 1 month ago.

They were 80/1 to win. Buster Douglas was 42/1 when he fought Tyson.

I'm trying to think of a bigger result in sport... to be honest I simply can't.

And with boxing, it is one on one, one punch can make the difference. Same in football, a team can grab a goal and defend.

Such is the physicality and nuances in rugby, for an upset to happen many, many facets need to fall in to play and the whole team need to play a near perfect game. This is what Japan did yesterday. For me it is one of the biggest upsets in team sporting history - and great for the game of Rugby Union

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Post by GavinDragon Sun 20 Sep - 8:48

This tweet is doing the rounds on Twitter, 1155 RT's and 966 Favourites:-

"@ollybarratt Train pulls into Brighton, SA fans insist Japan supporters get off first, give them a guard of honour and cheer them off. Amazing day."

SA Fans clap clap clap

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Post by majesticimperialman Sun 20 Sep - 8:49

It would be nice too see how this win for Japan effects the young kids back home.

Surely this must be the biggest game Japan have ever won in any team sporting event.

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Post by damage_13 Sun 20 Sep - 8:55

Slick passing, doubling up on tackles with one always being a chop tackle. Fast footwork, a steady lineout and above all

above all .....the scrum

Lads, Japan have just proven you can feed straight, still hook whilst going backwards against a huge weight difference AND STILL ATTACK

It was brilliant, scrums used as they SHOULD be and that second try.... just stunning. We're going to need to see something special to top that as try of the tournament.

The confidence in their scrum enabled them to say 'feck it, we'll take you on again for the 5 points an stretch you out'

15 was MoM for me... his nonchalant I-can't-care-less-we've-just-beaten-RSA-and-I'd-rather-be-with-my-teammates conversion said it all.

Gutted I wasn't there, I bid for this match and didn't get it :o(

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Post by fa0019 Sun 20 Sep - 8:57

GavinDragon wrote:This tweet is doing the rounds on Twitter, 1155 RT's and 966 Favourites:-

"@ollybarratt Train pulls into Brighton, SA fans insist Japan supporters get off first, give them a guard of honour and cheer them off. Amazing day."

SA Fans clap clap clap

Obviously those guys are not from planet bok then.... I count myself lucky to have survived the night!!!!! Wink

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Post by damage_13 Sun 20 Sep - 9:01

follow @FreemanrugbyJPN Rugby in Japan still has a huge problem in takeup due to their specialized sports system

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Post by sirtidychris Sun 20 Sep - 9:33

Tanaka the tiny 9 I think

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Post by Cumbrian Sun 20 Sep - 9:54

I was really impressed with the basic skills of the Japanese players, their handling was excellent.  I kept expecting that they would eventually drop the ball as the phases went on, but they didn't!

However, to me South Africa just looked old. To borrow a boxing analogy; they looked like a knacked old heavyweight boxer trying to land a massive knockout punch on a young hungry middle weight. They occasionally got glancing blows but nothing solid enough to put Japan on the canvas and eventually punched themselves out.  In my opinion it is telling that two thirds of the starting Boks' team were 30 or older (include 6 out of the 8 in the pack).

Unfortunately I just can't get carried away with this, I think Japan happened to have all of the necessary circumstances to beat the Boks (who really should have taken their shots at goal towards the end, the TBP was already secure for crying out loud!).  Sadly I fully expect Scotland to tear into Japan and win convincingly on Wednesday.
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Post by kingraf Sun 20 Sep - 10:19

I thought it all went wrong when, at 32-29 with about five minutes left, Fourie du Preez decided to kick a box thing which landed inside our half. Given the fact that we were outside our 22, I would have thought the Boks would back themselves to go through phases for five minutes against the Japanese. Instead we kicked it away and got punished. Badly
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Post by TJ Sun 20 Sep - 10:21

Cumbrian wrote:.............  Sadly I fully expect Scotland to tear into Japan and win convincingly on Wednesday.

As a Scots fan I would be very very suprised if we did. A win would be expected perhaps - but convincingly - I very much doubt it. Japan were only 3 places and 3 pts behind scotland in the rankings IIRC at the start of the tourney

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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama Sun 20 Sep - 10:30

TJ wrote:As a Scots fan I would be very very suprised if we did.  A win would be expected perhaps - but convincingly - I very much doubt it.  Japan were only 3 places and 3 pts behind scotland in the rankings IIRC at the start of the tourney

From a BBC article today:

"Except perhaps the Scots, who kick off their World Cup campaign against Japan in Gloucester on Wednesday. In case you are interested, Japan are currently 13-5 to win that one"

We certainly don't seem to be expected to beat them anymore

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Post by fa0019 Sun 20 Sep - 10:36

Anyone who backs Japan all of a sudden should recall their last games are 3 losses to Fiji, Tonga, USA... 2 wins vs the mighty Uruguay and a finger nails 3 point win vs Georgia a few weeks ago... They're not in the form of their life.

Scotland will win this one.... better do!!!!

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Post by Notch Sun 20 Sep - 10:42

How do Japan come down from the emotional high and recover physically to face Scotland just a few days from now? I struggle to see a repeat of this result. But it should be an interesting game to watch.
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Post by SecretFly Sun 20 Sep - 10:56

Notch wrote:How do Japan come down from the emotional high and recover physically to face Scotland just a few days from now? I struggle to see a repeat of this result. But it should be an interesting game to watch.

Because Jones will have schooled them. He knows the rhythms. He knows one game is nothing. The win might have now shattered the players emotionally but those cool eyes of Jones will be ready to twist that exhaustion into real resolve now not to waste that energy. He'll be telling them that to implode now will tarnish the SA victory in the eyes of the world. If he works it well, he'll be able to twist that delight and relief into determination to concentrate fully one more time and commit fully one more time.

I think Scotland will play it looser and at a higher tempo for a sustained period than SA did but this Japanese team really seem to want that kinda game anyway. So...it's all up in the air.

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Post by InjuredYetAgain Sun 20 Sep - 11:23

As much as we all loved watching Japan yesterday, I tend to agree with Notch. I think, even though they won, yesterday will have absolutely drained the players physically and to play a team that will be totally refreshed could just swing it in our favour. I can see your thinking fly but if a body is broken, there is only so much that a coach can do.
There is an interesting discussion on the Japan-v-Scotland thread about whether we should go for size (remember 2 Bok tries came from big guys running over intended tacklers) or whether we try to play looser as we seem to have reasonable backs for the first time in ages.

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Post by hjumpshoe Sun 20 Sep - 11:33

Kind of switched off for the 1st half of this (3 daughters under 10 yr old running around and the Mrs whinging), just glanced up occasionally, thinking Japan were doing well to still be in touch. Saw the halftime score so took a bit more interest at the start of the 2nd half. Was initially impressed by the Japanese pack refusing to be bullied by the Bok. Then I realised their backs looked decent as well and actually had a moment of 'hang on, these boys are younger and fitter than SA, they could actually do this!' When SA went 29-22 up, I was actually praying for Japan to score next, and when they scored that fantastic try to level, I almost exploded.my Mrs came into the room and said "what are you shouting about? Thought Wales play tomorrow!" The last 10 minutes of the match I spent giving my family running commentary and a crash course of the rules. Previously, my all female household have expressed zero interest in rugby, despite my repeated attempts to involve them, educate them and generally share my passion with them(behave!). Now, there we were, all shouting the red n whites on, with my girls firing questions at me and me explaining the size of the achievement this Japanese team were making. I think it was the refused kick at goal that clinched it, to take that once in a lifetime decision to win or bust seemed to really appeal to my kin and my girls were now hooked! The fact that it paid off and Japan clinched the victory was the icing on the cake. Not really sure how much my 4 yr old actually understood, but she did jump around with us at the end, and loved how the players and fans were crying happy tears. Anyway, we've got a family day planned for today, with a locked door, closed curtains, lots of munchies and pop, a couple of cheeky Vinos and lots of rugby. Look, I'll do my best to maintain the interest and excitement levels and continue to teach them all about our wonderful game, I'm not holding my breath though and iPads are charged up as a contingency plan. Thank you Japan, you may well have altered my life for the better, or I may no longer be allowed to go to the pub to watch a match my wife n kids. Time will tell I suppose!

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Post by FerN Sun 20 Sep - 12:46

fa0019 wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:This tweet is doing the rounds on Twitter, 1155 RT's and 966 Favourites:-

"@ollybarratt Train pulls into Brighton, SA fans insist Japan supporters get off first, give them a guard of honour and cheer them off. Amazing day."

SA Fans clap clap clap

Obviously those guys are not from planet bok then.... I count myself lucky to have survived the night!!!!! Wink

Why,

I would have given them the guard of honour.

Non of the memes on the internet is anti Japanese.

Here in Pretoria, we are definitely not angry at the Japanese. There is some other resentment, but that is in country resentment. Not a good day to be Bok coach, if there is ever.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sun 20 Sep - 12:53

It's been a heavy weekend for me, so I think I'm going to have a rest today. I've been in Cardiff all weekend partying with French, Irish and Canadians - hell we even bumped into Germans supporting Ireland. Cardiff is looking like a wasteland right now to be fair but having rugby supporters of various nationalities crammed into one city all drinking and dancing together is just superb. That and Japan's historic result yesterday is why I love the world cup. Long may this continue.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sun 20 Sep - 12:58

Notch wrote:How do Japan come down from the emotional high and recover physically to face Scotland just a few days from now? I struggle to see a repeat of this result. But it should be an interesting game to watch.

Seems a tad harsh. If they were playing SA again I'd agree with you. But Japan are only 3 places behind Scotland in the world rankings, and after this weekend that gap is probably narrower - also considering that Scotland can look really good one week and go to wooden spoon contenders the following week I'd say it's game on.

It is true that Japan rarely put in a performance like this. I don't watch them often but the time I last seen them play that well is when they beat a substandard Wales team in 2013. Based on yesterday's performance they are a lot better now and I hope they continue to improve.

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Post by Rugby Fan Sun 20 Sep - 14:25

I was sure Eddie Jones had made rugby history by coaching two different national sides to victory over the Boks. Then I remembered Andy Robinson has done it with England & Scotland, while Graham Henry has done it with Wales and NZ. Not quite the exclusive club I imagined.

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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama Sun 20 Sep - 16:04

I haven't been able to find anyone in the media who've had a crack at giving player ratings for the Japanese players for the match, though I'd be very interested to see some. I'd imagine this is because no journalists out there know enough about any of the players to make a reasonable judgement. Has anyone come across any, or fancy giving it a shot themselves?

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Post by maestegmafia Tue 22 Sep - 16:00

Seagulls are apparently to blame for Boks performance

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11516838

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Post by Galted Tue 22 Sep - 18:05

maestegmafia wrote:Seagulls are apparently to blame for Boks performance

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11516838

There is no such thing as a seagull.

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Post by Biltong Tue 22 Sep - 18:23

Yeah, a nothing story, just someone trying to paint SA supporters in a bad light.
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Post by Galted Tue 22 Sep - 18:31

You're ignoring the bigger issue, Biltong, the perpetuation of the seagull myth. It saddens me greatly, how is the common man supposed to change the world when governments and moderators sit idly by twiddling their thumbs and debating irrelevances?

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Post by SecretFly Tue 22 Sep - 18:47

Weren't seagulls killing sunbathers earlier in the year? Something needs to be done about them. A lawless shower.

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Post by TJ Tue 22 Sep - 20:39

There is the herring Gull - thats the big stroppy one that eats rubbish but not herrings
There is the lessor and greater black backed gulls - that actually have black wings not backs
There is the black headed gull thats head is brown part of the year and white the rest
There is the common gull that is actually quite rare
There is the kittiwake thats not actually called a gull although it is one.
None of their names are actually true

There is no such bird as a seagull!

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Post by SecretFly Tue 22 Sep - 20:55

...and the man eating gull, that you failed to mention...

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Post by Galted Tue 22 Sep - 21:13

TJ wrote:There is the herring Gull - thats the big stroppy one that eats rubbish but not herrings
There is the lessor and greater black backed gulls - that actually have black wings not backs
There is the black headed gull thats head is brown part of the year and white the rest
There is the common gull that is actually quite rare
There is the kittiwake thats not actually called a gull although it is one.
None of their names are actually true

There is no such bird as a seagull!

Beautiful post, TJ, staggeringly beautiful.  Made me clench my right hand into a fist and whisper "beautiful post, staggeringly beautiful".

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Post by maestegmafia Tue 22 Sep - 21:27

Biltong wrote:Yeah, a nothing story, just someone trying to paint SA supporters in a bad light.

Sorry mate I thought it was funny. Didn't mean to upset anyone..!

Just thought it was an amusing bit of bad journalism

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Post by Biltong Tue 22 Sep - 21:50

maestegmafia wrote:
Biltong wrote:Yeah, a nothing story, just someone trying to paint SA supporters in a bad light.

Sorry mate I thought it was funny. Didn't mean to upset anyone..!

Just thought it was an amusing bit of bad journalism

No worries, bad journalism definitely, funny I agree, the comment about SA fans using it as an excuse, creates a point of attention to read the tripe.
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Post by offload Tue 22 Sep - 23:13

It was widely reported that a "seagull" (I use the term with caution as I don't want to upset TJ) killed a Yorkshire Terrier dog this summer, somewhere along the English coast. I suspect it was part of the same gang that went on to terrorise the SA team.

I blame the general decline in modern society and poor parenting - difficult at the best of times, but this is a World Cup year!
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Post by milkyboy Wed 23 Sep - 12:18

At least the term seagulls has some generic descriptive merit. But when you have honey badgers that aren't badgers and killer whales that aren't whales I'm conerned by the seagullist turn this thread is taking.

As for the dog murderers, its outrageous that a few rotten apples give gulls in general such a bad name. Most of the 'gulls' I meet will happily share a chip or piece of stale bread and go about their daily business without causing bother. Better still, rumour has it, some can  be trained to defecate wherever they hear a south african accent.

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Post by SecretFly Wed 23 Sep - 12:24

Smart!!!

Give the Norovirus to the Gulls instead of the All Blacks this time....

It might just work - four years in the planning.

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Post by maestegmafia Wed 23 Sep - 13:02

Biltong wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
Biltong wrote:Yeah, a nothing story, just someone trying to paint SA supporters in a bad light.

Sorry mate I thought it was funny. Didn't mean to upset anyone..!

Just thought it was an amusing bit of bad journalism

No worries, bad journalism definitely, funny I agree, the comment about SA fans using it as an excuse, creates a point of attention to read the tripe.

Maybe next time the boks go to the seaside and have fish and chips they should be a bit more generous with how many chips they give to the seagulls and you might not get such vengeance from them

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