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WTA game without Serena even worse than before

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Post by It Must Be Love Thu 24 Sep 2015, 12:19 pm

First topic message reminder :

I've been watching some women's tennis this year, in Slams as well as some smaller tournaments (BT Sports showing lots of those on WTA side).

Must say, with the exception of Serena, it's been really really poor stuff this year. This has been the case for the last few years, but for me it's even more accentuated this year.

RANKINGS ANALYSIS:
1/ Serena= 3 slams and could win at will even when below par
2/ Halep= my favourite player on WTA tour, but her results in big tournaments have not been great- only 1 Slam semi and that was a 2 set thrashing defeat
3/ Sharapova= She's been ok this year, hampered by injury, but never been at her best. Can't touch Serena in any match
4/ Kvitova= Hasn't reached a slam semi
5/ Safarova= Basically done nothing all year, no titles, but reached final of French Open somehow
6/ Wozniacki= lol
7/ Pennetta= Won the US Open, no indicator before that it was even possible
8/ Muguruza= Did you know that she spent more time on court in Wimbledon before her final than Roger Federer before his final ? BO3>>>more pay>>>BO5.
9/ Kerber= Hasn't even managed to get past R3 in a Slam all year
10/ Suarez Navarro= How is she top 10, 3 round 1 exits in Slams and 1 R3 exit

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Mon 05 Oct 2015, 2:11 pm

You could have a look at the "equal pay" debate, they're at least three completely sexist posts on there that I could see and I only skimmed through it (in the hope that there'd be some decent arguments too, which there were to be fair).

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Post by Guest Mon 05 Oct 2015, 2:38 pm

There was a debate recently about the popularity of certain male players. Many mentioned the sex appeal of Borg and Nadal. I didn't hear anyone mention 'sexism' or 'discrimination' in relation to that debate, yet change the players names to Sharapova or Bouchard and I am sure it would be littered with sexism police. It's hilariously un-equal in recognition.

We have a "Womens Thread" each season which really should be called "Williams Thread" as really that is the make up of the threads. Right there for some insane reason there seems to be a need for gender identification. I don't see the need to be one. Shall we start a 'Mens' Thread as they are not being given their own thread?

Things become un-equal when people treat it as such. Even those who think they aren't.

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Post by HM Murdock Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:20 pm

laverfan wrote:
HM Murdock wrote:I expect the female players would be mortified to hear people are discussing how attractive they are.

They are attractive in other attires, too. The choice of this specific set itself can be objectionable to some. Please be sensitive. Wink
I agree.

My point is that I can't see any issue with commenting on a player's attractiveness, when the players are willing to take part in photo shoots and campaigns specifically to make themselves look sexy. They surely don't expect that a picture of them posing in a bikini is inviting a discussion of their ground strokes?

The problem with the cries of sexism is that they require us to accept that making positive comments about the appearance of some players is showing prejudice against women.

I've never seen anyone on this forum be critical of a player for their appearance and there are plenty of players whose looks don't get mentioned at all.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:25 pm

HM Murdock wrote:
laverfan wrote:
HM Murdock wrote:I expect the female players would be mortified to hear people are discussing how attractive they are.

They are attractive in other attires, too. The choice of this specific set itself can be objectionable to some. Please be sensitive. Wink
I agree.

My point is that I can't see any issue with commenting on a player's attractiveness, when the players are willing to take part in photo shoots and campaigns specifically to make themselves look sexy. They surely don't expect that a picture of them posing in a bikini is inviting a discussion of their ground strokes?

The problem with the cries of sexism is that they require us to accept that making positive comments about the appearance of some players is showing prejudice against women.

I've never seen anyone on this forum be critical of a player for their appearance and there are plenty of players whose looks don't get mentioned at all.

really???

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Post by HM Murdock Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:27 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:
HM Murdock wrote:
I've never seen anyone on this forum be critical of a player for their appearance and there are plenty of players whose looks don't get mentioned at all.

really???
Yes, really.

Who do you think gets criticised and by whom?

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:31 pm

Bartoli, Williams, to name but two. Can't really remember who was doing the criticising but probably the usual suspects. Anyway I don't particularly want to get into a heavy debate (just saying I agree with HB and shivfan), but if you look at how routinely female players have comments about their physique on here compared to the male ones the sexism seems fairly obvious to me...

Going to leave this now as don't think much good will come of it...

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Post by Guest Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:37 pm

I have seen many male players get criticised for their appearance. Socal's 'fat dave' being one routinely banded out. No cries of sexism there.

I know we are not looking for a massive debate about the subject, but I think those highlighting it are looking from an un-equal perspective.

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Post by HM Murdock Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:46 pm

legendkillarV2 wrote:There was a debate recently about the popularity of certain male players. Many mentioned the sex appeal of Borg and Nadal. I didn't hear anyone mention 'sexism' or 'discrimination' in relation to that debate, yet change the players names to Sharapova or Bouchard and I am sure it would be littered with sexism police.
Indeed.

Slamless world #10 Caroline Wozniacki earns $11m a year in endorsements.

Slamless world #10 Gilles Simon doesn't appear to have any non-tennis endorsements.

I don't know how Caroline copes with all these sexist people noticing her looks. I expect she'd love to be like Gilles and be known mainly for her prosaic tennis.

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Post by Guest Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:53 pm

It's not even the endorsements that are an issue HM.

It's just that it's ok for male players to be put on a pedestal or perved over because of their appearance and that is fine, acceptable in all quarters. Do it to a woman player and your sexist.

That in itself is the most un-equal nonsense ever.

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Post by HM Murdock Mon 05 Oct 2015, 3:59 pm

legendkillarV2 wrote:It's just that it's ok for male players to be put on a pedestal or perved over because of their appearance and that is fine, acceptable in all quarters. Do it to a woman player and your sexist.

That in itself is the most un-equal nonsense ever.
Imagine the outrage if this advert were a female player with male staff!:


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Post by Guest Mon 05 Oct 2015, 4:04 pm

The world has moved on, or so I would to believe it has....

I think that's why I prefer my head in the sand approach...

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Post by It Must Be Love Mon 05 Oct 2015, 7:40 pm

Not sure how the thread has got here, but I will say on this forum there is probably more comment on womens appearance than mens... however on other forums I've felt sometimes it's the other way round and people are talking about Rafa and Feliciano etc. on their looks more. Also I follow Nadal fanpages on Facebook, and many people don't think twice before talking about his looks/body, and no one really seems to find it offensive.
I think it's a bit of a grey area, I think it should be considered objectification, and beyond a certain extent it is sexism. I think HM's provocative post on the other page was trying to highlight how players use their own body as a commercial decision, rather than a sexist slant.

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Post by It Must Be Love Mon 05 Oct 2015, 7:49 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Worth remembering that originally the serve was just meant to be a way of starting the point. In any case I don't think difficulty to hold serve makes matches less exciting, more the contrary. I mean if Raonic breaks serve you can usually (unless he's playing Djokovic or Murray) switch off for the rest of the set, not exactly exciting IMO.

I do agree with HB and shivfan that the attitudes to the women's game on this board are pretty sexist. Pretty much any talk of them at slams revolves solely around the physical attributes of the players, which is rather off-putting.

Having said that, don't think there's that much wrong with this thread in particular, since it's talking about the levels of women's tennis in general. I do however disagree with IMBL. I don't think the level of the women's game is particularly poor, it's just that you have an all-time great who's miles ahead of the rest, and then among the rest most players can on their day beat any other. Inconsistent maybe, but in general I just think the margins are very fine between players ranked 2-70. I actually think it's in a much better place than it was 5 years ago where the power-game was pretty much the only one which had a chance of success. Nowadays there seems to be a bit more variety in there, players coming to the net, using the drop shot, etc.

I would actually say that women's tennis seems to me to be on the up at the moment, in contrast to the men's game which seems to have hit a wall.

Interesting post. Few points:

I don't want to talk too much about men's tour, as we've discussed eras in the ATP tour at length already, but I would say this in terms of a comparison- if Djokovic is out injured you'd more or less expect a player ranked between #2 and #8 to win the Grand Slam, probably Federer or Murray based on this year. But if Serena is out, on the WTA tour, even the players ranked #2-#8 don't have the class or consistency to inspire any real confidence that they'll win the Slam. I do watch WTA tennis quite a bit, and honestly Vinci and Penneta (USO final) are both pretty mediocre players. I'm a fan of Halep, I really like watching her play, but I admit that she hasn't shown any consistency in Slams.

As for breaks in the set; I think a balance has to be reached. I don't enjoy watching Raonic or Karlovic as one break is too close to being set over, while I still like the fundamental idea of having a service game to protect- so Errani vs Vinci can be frustrating. I like having a few breaks a set, where a break is big but not the clincher. In many respects both ATP and WTA fail to meet the perfect balance, in contrasting ways.

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Post by HM Murdock Mon 05 Oct 2015, 7:57 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:Not sure how the thread has got here, but I will say on this forum there is probably more comment on womens appearance than mens...
I think this is probably because most people on this forum are male.

I don't know the genders of everyone but my impression is it's a large male majority.

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Post by kingraf Mon 05 Oct 2015, 8:49 pm

I know for a fact that I didn't imagine 2013 where Lydian bombarded the forum with topless pictures of male tennis players. Or when Federer's weight was cruelly analysed, with more photos of a topless Federer. And some of a topless younger Federer. And even more of a peak topless Federer.

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Post by Henman Bill Tue 06 Oct 2015, 12:12 am

I think compared to say the 90s the women's tour has more strength and depth. The players in say, for example, 30-50 ranking positions. In the early 90s such a player was no threat to someone in the top 3 at all, it was like playing a 100 ranked player.

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Post by Henman Bill Tue 06 Oct 2015, 12:21 am

legendkillarV2 wrote:There was a debate recently about the popularity of certain male players. Many mentioned the sex appeal of Borg and Nadal. I didn't hear anyone mention 'sexism' or 'discrimination' in relation to that debate, yet change the players names to Sharapova or Bouchard and I am sure it would be littered with sexism police. It's hilariously un-equal in recognition.


On this forum at least (which is the specific issue I'm raising, not forums in general or anything else) Nadal over the years has had tons of discussion about his injuries/physical condition, form, statistical achievements and position on the GOAT debate. I'd estimate discussion of his physique has only been 1% or 10% of the discussion about him. But women players are sometimes mentioned only for comments about their attractiveness.

The comments about the male players are also of the sort like "attractive" "good image" "women like his body" whereas comments about women players tend to be a step further, words to the effect of "I wish she was my girlfriend" or "I would have sex with her". A bit more direct, blunt.

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Post by HM Murdock Tue 06 Oct 2015, 9:08 am

^The difference with Nadal is that he has a career full of huge achievement and a historic place in the game to discuss too. His looks are comparatively small part of his public image.

For the same reason, any discussion about the looks of players like Henin, Clijsters, Williams and Graf is proportionally small-to-non-existent.

But there are also a handful of players in the WTA who are particularly good looking but whose tennis does not have a style or results that prompt much discussion. It's no surprise that their looks attract more comment.

If Wozniacki were achieving results of Serena or playing with the style of, say, Radwanska, there'd be a lot more discussion about her tennis.

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Post by It Must Be Love Tue 06 Oct 2015, 10:43 am

I do think HB has a point though; I generally hope tennis forums will discuss tennis related issues, and if a forum is harping too much on how fit Sharapova is, or how great 'Deliciano' is etc. I see that as out of place. And on this forum certainly as you pointed out probably due to greater male percentage it's more emphasis on WTA player's looks.

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Post by Guest Tue 06 Oct 2015, 12:33 pm

Henman Bill wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:There was a debate recently about the popularity of certain male players. Many mentioned the sex appeal of Borg and Nadal. I didn't hear anyone mention 'sexism' or 'discrimination' in relation to that debate, yet change the players names to Sharapova or Bouchard and I am sure it would be littered with sexism police. It's hilariously un-equal in recognition.


On this forum at least (which is the specific issue I'm raising, not forums in general or anything else) Nadal over the years has had tons of discussion about his injuries/physical condition, form, statistical achievements and position on the GOAT debate. I'd estimate discussion of his physique has only been 1% or 10% of the discussion about him. But women players are sometimes mentioned only for comments about their attractiveness.

The comments about the male players are also of the sort like "attractive" "good image" "women like his body" whereas comments about women players tend to be a step further, words to the effect of "I wish she was my girlfriend" or "I would have sex with her". A bit more direct, blunt.

That 1-10% doesn't make it any more acceptable. That's the crux of the matter for me. Right there we accept that it is ok to reference men on their physical attributes that a non-tennis related, because in the scheme of things it is proportionate in the scheme of tennis discussions.

The point HM made earlier about endorsements highlights the issue. If women put themselves on a pedestal to be admired for anything other than tennis ability, then she will expect to draw the attention of those not following tennis. If Simon in his example was parading about in nothing pants as an advertising campaign, I am sure more would be said.

As for the last point. I would say Jahu is the only one who references who he would like to have sex with and doesn't limit that to just players either!

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Post by HM Murdock Tue 06 Oct 2015, 1:31 pm

legendkillarV2 wrote:As for the last point. I would say Jahu is the only one who references who he would like to have sex with and doesn't limit that to just players either!
Or even to just human beings.

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Post by JuliusHMarx Tue 06 Oct 2015, 2:38 pm

HM Murdock wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:As for the last point. I would say Jahu is the only one who references who he would like to have sex with and doesn't limit that to just players either!
Or even to just human beings.

Menagerie a trois

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Post by greengoblin Tue 06 Oct 2015, 6:39 pm

Ironic that those complaining that the focus is on the female's appearance has dragged this unrelated thread into that territory.

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Post by temporary21 Wed 07 Oct 2015, 7:03 pm

To be fair, things do go overboard from time to time, wondering how to "shut their throat" comes to mind.
Its just a reflection of society, women tend to be able to make a lot more money from their appearance than men, but are then also judged by their appearance more as a result. Its hard to talk about Shazza without mentioning that her fame is at least just as much about her off court work as on it. A little taste wont go amiss.

Its not the WTA's problem anyway, the womens game is in a rut in terms of star power, Halep goes off the boil easy, Wozzas gone backwards, Shazza is injured, Aggy has dropped off a cliff as well.

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