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Post by GeordieFalcon Sun 04 Oct 2015, 3:32 pm

First topic message reminder :

Who comes in...and who goes

How about this team for the next game after the WC

1 Marler
2 Tommy Taylor (Sale)
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Lawes (Itoje on the bench)
6 Ewers
7 Kvesic (Clifford on the bench)
8 Morgan

9 Youngs
10 Slade
11 May
12 Tom Stepheson / Sam Hill
13 Joseph
14 Watson
15 Brown


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Post by LondonTiger Thu 08 Oct 2015, 4:15 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think Lancaster will resign on Sunday.

I suspect that officially nothing will be done till after the RWC final.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu 08 Oct 2015, 4:19 pm

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon the problem is unless you play these "young pretenders" you don't know what they can do.

.

Beshocked ive agreed with you on this all the way through.

Im merely saying they are all young. Sinkler, Collier, Scott Wilson at TH, Auterac at LH for example or whoever is picked. If they perform this season and Cole, Davy Wilson etc are not then yes by all means. But if the kids are struggling and Davy Wilson or Cole show a rejuvenated form then don't throw them out.


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Post by beshocked Thu 08 Oct 2015, 4:21 pm

Sgt Pooly you wouldn't know unless he's given an opportunity. That's the point I am making.

I think he's better than Attwood and Kruis but again Itoje can only prove himself if given gametime.

lostinwales well no I disagree. For him to have the power he is at only 20, not bad at all. You see his age as a weakness, I see it as a strength. I felt it was missed opportunity to involved a youngster with a lot of potential in a RWC.

A run out in the warm ups would have been better than ignoring him.

Even a loss can be important in the learning process.

He's got more rugby union experience than Burgess yet there were many who wanted to pick Burgess at 6 for England.

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Post by LondonTiger Thu 08 Oct 2015, 4:24 pm

A run out in the warmups deprives game time for someone else. This WC came too early for the likes of Itoje.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 08 Oct 2015, 4:26 pm

You can't "try out" everyone Beshocked. To give somebody a good go you need to give them a 4/5 game run, not one game.

Itoje is not a better player than Robshaw, Wood and Haskell so wasn't picked, I can't believe we're still going over this.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 08 Oct 2015, 4:27 pm

LondonTiger wrote:A run out in the warmups deprives game time for someone else. This WC came too early for the likes of Itoje.

Exactly, it's pretty sensible stuff.

He'll be around the 6N squad next year without doubt.

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Post by beshocked Thu 08 Oct 2015, 4:32 pm

Well Londontiger we'll never know because Lancaster didn't try him.

Probably less of a risk to pick Itoje instead of Kruis than picking Burgess in the centres.

Though saying that I don't think picking Burgess was the worst decision made by Lancaster even though it was controversial.

Sgt Pooly to be frank Wood,Robshaw and Haskell - weren't good enough in the RWC. These so called experienced players didn't perform well enough.

Would have Itoje done a better job? Perhaps not but you never know. Certainly would have been a breath of fresh air, an unknown quantity and offer something different.


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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 08 Oct 2015, 4:38 pm

Kruis was involved in the set up and has proved himself over a number of games at Int level. He also knew patterns and calls etc. To bring in Itoje ahead of him would have been nonsense really.

Also Kruis has played most of his rugby at lock and that's where he was selected. Itoje has played more rugby at 6, he was up against Wood, Robshaw and Haskell.

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Post by beshocked Thu 08 Oct 2015, 4:45 pm

Sgt Pooly just as nonsensical as picking Burgess at centre?

Itoje can play both lock and 6.

Kruis has been fine for England but I don't feel like he's going to ever set the world alight.

Kruis vs Itoje - Itoje IMO wins hands down.

Would have been a bit riskier to Itoje but England didn't beat Wales and Australia with the likes of Wood,Robshaw and Haskell did they?

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 08 Oct 2015, 4:52 pm

Burgess was an idiotic call.

Itoje was up against Robshaw, Wood and Haskell. Is he a better player than them? No.

Losing against Wales is by the by, Itoje isn't a better player than those flankers selected.

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Post by beshocked Thu 08 Oct 2015, 5:00 pm

Sgt Pooly depends what you mean by "better".

Haskell,Wood and Robshaw didn't play well in the world cup. I think Itoje could have potentially done better. Of course I have no proof because Lancaster didn't trust him but that's because Lancaster is a poor coach.

An out of form low in confidence Wood,Robshaw and Haskell vs an in form Itoje. Who knows?

Sometimes a player can be deemed "better" but it doesn't mean they'll outplay the opposition - look at Japan.

Not as good as Samoa and SA on paper yet have beaten both.

Japan have had a good campaign, England haven't.





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Post by fa0019 Thu 08 Oct 2015, 5:04 pm

Given the type of players chosen will depend on the coach.. the question is, not who would you like as coach, but who is most likely to become new coach.

I've heard Jake White is already favourite but will only cooperate if he's seen as a genuine candidate.

He likes things his way. It will not be smooth. But he will bring results but if he feels resistance from either the players or management he will up sticks and leave.

He runs quite a tight ship, made his bones as a technical analyst and develops teams into very south african outfits wherever he goes.  Can't imagine the mobile front five and anyone with a lip will last long.

Could be prickly but I'd back them to do very well initially, he usually brings in instant results.

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Post by majesticimperialman Thu 08 Oct 2015, 5:08 pm

Sgt_pooly

I do agree that picking Burges was a stupid mistake...he came over from league still learning the game and they play him out of position.

Burrell should of been in the centre along with Joseph.

I guess who ever takes over from SL will not make that same mistake. playing Burgess in the centre.

It will be just a case of wait and see....who takes over and who his choice of players will be.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 08 Oct 2015, 5:09 pm

You're argument has no basis Beshocked.

Haskell, Wood and Robshaw are better players than Itoje, that's not even a reasonable debate.

I can't take this any further as its a completely pointless discussion. Itoje isn't worth really talking about as there's plenty of other options that were ahead of him.

You're like a broken record with nobody backing you up or agreeing with you.

I may as well champion Mark Wilson, why didn't he make the WC squad? It's just as idiotic tbh

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 08 Oct 2015, 5:11 pm

No not picking Itoje doesn't make him a poor coach. Itoje should challenge now for a 6Ns spot but he needs to nail down a position at Saracens against a few good players. Tons of potential probably not better than a few players yet and still not settled at either lock or flanker. Has the chance to push on now but will he get the chances in thhe team?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 08 Oct 2015, 5:15 pm

Lancaster looking to see how Burgess gets on with lineout this season so he'll be in the mix at 6.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 08 Oct 2015, 5:17 pm

Or back to RL?

I've got a mate that works for Sky Sports and there's discussions going on apparently.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 08 Oct 2015, 5:21 pm

Always a possibility but he strikes me as a guy who looks for the big challenge. 6Ns at 6 the Lions on the horizon in NZ. Don't think he's a guy who likes what ifs or doubts he could do it.

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Post by beshocked Thu 08 Oct 2015, 5:26 pm

Sgt Pooly my argument has no basis? I would counter yours has none.

Wood,Robshaw and Haskell - have had poor RWC campaigns.

Itoje was showing good form before dropped by Lancaster.

That's what we know.

What we don't know is if Itoje could have done a better job because he wasn't given an opportunity in the warm ups. Perhaps he wouldn't have been good enough but we don't know that.

You can say Robshaw is "better". Doesn't mean anything if next time they face each other Itoje outplays him.

Don't get me wrong I believe that Robshaw,Wood and Haskell are much more experienced players with better reputations but they were a disappointment in the RWC.

No one needs to back me.

Mark Wilson? What did he do during the AP and ERCC season? Playing in the biggest games gives a player more recognition.

no 7 & 1/2 he played in a bunch of big games at the end of last season. He's proven himself at club level, it's now about him being trusted at international level.

fa0019 perhaps Jake White should be chosen but I would worry that he would make the English team too rigid, not flexible enough. Also I can imagine him having big battles with the egoistical RFU.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 08 Oct 2015, 5:38 pm

2nd season syndrome is not unheard of. Ignoring the wc Itoje now needs to nail a starting place which probably means lock judging your currant players? Seems to me he'll have more chances there I just hope he doesn'tg et made into a jack of all trades.

Personally quite interested to see if Slater and kitchener get some games together or if the former goes to 6.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 08 Oct 2015, 5:39 pm

Oh and i'm sure they trust Itoje and a few others they justt hink theres better options.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 08 Oct 2015, 6:30 pm

You can counter all you like Beshocked, you have nothing.

Fact is, the best 3 flankers were in the WC squad.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 08 Oct 2015, 6:42 pm

Unfortunately 1 of them was playing in midfield!

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Post by majesticimperialman Thu 08 Oct 2015, 6:47 pm

What's killing me right now is not knowing who will be the next England coach after the Rugby World Cup.

I really sick of all this guessing. I know the rumours about certain coaches and all.

But i just wish they the RFU, would say some think....Put us out of a misery;.

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Post by Guest Thu 08 Oct 2015, 7:04 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:What's killing me right now is not knowing who will be the next England coach after the Rugby World Cup.

I really sick of all this guessing. I know the rumours about certain coaches and all.

But i just wish they the RFU, would say some think....Put us out of a misery;.

What can they say? You have another game to play.

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Post by majesticimperialman Thu 08 Oct 2015, 7:35 pm

Risca Rev wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:What's killing me right now is not knowing who will be the next England coach after the Rugby World Cup.

I really sick of all this guessing. I know the rumours about certain coaches and all.

But i just wish they the RFU, would say some think....Put us out of a misery;.

What can they say? You have another game to play.

Yes i know. but some kind of hint would do. Some think to look forward too.

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Post by king_carlos Thu 08 Oct 2015, 7:49 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Fact is, the best 3 flankers were in the WC squad.
With the flankers the argument comes down to the balance of the back row not just the 'best three flankers' Sgt.

Personally I view Robshaw as a much better player than Wood or Haskell so I will focus on the later two here.

In terms of pedigree and what they offer at their best I would agree that Wood and Haskell are currently 'better players'. Wood offers brilliant work rate, near faultless tackling, strong breakdown work and a valuable line-out option. Haskell offers more robust work around the fringes in attack and defence, a physical presence and a good ball carrier in the loose.

The problem is then two fold. Firstly, neither have shown their best with consistency at the top level for some time now IMO. Secondly, the balance with either in the back row looked shot.

With Haskell we lost a line-out option we desperately needed hence ended up with Parling/Lawes in the boiler room which the scrum and many other things suffered for. Plus he has lacked any consistency. With Wood we got that line-out option but around the park he simply offered the same presence, with slighly less effectiveness, as Robshaw did.

Hence the balance was not there.

Itoje is raw but IMO he could have offered the skill set we needed on the flank.

- He offers more size and physicality than Wood
- He is a much stronger ball carrier than Wood
- He still offers the extra line-out option that Haskell couldn't provide
- Whilst he doesn't yet offer the same relentless work rate of Wood or Haskell he can provide more destructive tackling. I.e. the ability to knock someone backwards and force a real swing in momentum of play. Something which I feel we haven't seen from Wood or Haskell in too long.

His breakdown work is behind what Wood and Haskell should be offering but in a pack that was supposedly built around lots of players with excellent break down skills I feel Itoje could have shone. Plus his breakdown work and work rate are still good and will only improve as he gets more experience and finished developing.

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Post by Cardiff Dave Thu 08 Oct 2015, 8:45 pm

I'd bring back Hartley for starters.
England were far too nice.

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Post by Cyril Thu 08 Oct 2015, 8:57 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:I'd bring back Hartley for starters.
England were far too nice.

Agreed. I think we're too nice the NH.

In fact, I think we're currently as far from the Big Three (now Big Four with Argentina looking good from their time in the Rugby Championship) as we've been since 2003. Maybe France can break the monopoly.

A long road ahead for the NH.

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Post by Rugby Fan Thu 08 Oct 2015, 9:16 pm

king_carlos wrote:...His breakdown work is behind what Wood and Haskell should be offering but in a pack that was supposedly built around lots of players with excellent break down skills I feel Itoje could have shone...
That's the problem right there. While we did well enough against the Welsh until our late match brain fart, we didn't handle Australia at all. No-one was getting turnovers, so it's hard to see how Itoje would have helped us if that's not an area of excellence for him at the moment.

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Post by Cardiff Dave Thu 08 Oct 2015, 9:25 pm

Cyril wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:I'd bring back Hartley for starters.
England were far too nice.

Agreed. I think we're too nice the NH.

In fact, I think we're currently as far from the Big Three (now Big Four with Argentina looking good from their time in the Rugby Championship) as we've been since 2003. Maybe France can break the monopoly.

A long road ahead for the NH.

I'll also mention the ruck that led to Biggar's winning penalty. Why were the England players so powder puff in clearing out Warbs and Jenkins? There were enough around and should've gone piling in.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 08 Oct 2015, 9:31 pm

The breakdown is a massive area of weakness for us and as mentioned Itoje is a downgrade on our 3 best flankers, I can't see why he would be considered (he wasn't obviously and rightly so)

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Post by Cyril Thu 08 Oct 2015, 9:32 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
Cyril wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:I'd bring back Hartley for starters.
England were far too nice.

Agreed. I think we're too nice the NH.

In fact, I think we're currently as far from the Big Three (now Big Four with Argentina looking good from their time in the Rugby Championship) as we've been since 2003. Maybe France can break the monopoly.

A long road ahead for the NH.

I'll also mention the ruck that led to Biggar's winning penalty. Why were the England players so powder puff in clearing out Warbs and Jenkins? There were enough around and should've gone piling in.
I'm sure it will be looked into. The SH will be.

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Post by Cardiff Dave Thu 08 Oct 2015, 10:23 pm

Cyril wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
Cyril wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:I'd bring back Hartley for starters.
England were far too nice.

Agreed. I think we're too nice the NH.

In fact, I think we're currently as far from the Big Three (now Big Four with Argentina looking good from their time in the Rugby Championship) as we've been since 2003. Maybe France can break the monopoly.

A long road ahead for the NH.

I'll also mention the ruck that led to Biggar's winning penalty. Why were the England players so powder puff in clearing out Warbs and Jenkins? There were enough around and should've gone piling in.
I'm sure it will be looked into. The SH will be.

SH already aware mun. Have been for ages and ages.

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Post by Cyril Thu 08 Oct 2015, 10:29 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
Cyril wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
Cyril wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:I'd bring back Hartley for starters.
England were far too nice.

Agreed. I think we're too nice the NH.

In fact, I think we're currently as far from the Big Three (now Big Four with Argentina looking good from their time in the Rugby Championship) as we've been since 2003. Maybe France can break the monopoly.

A long road ahead for the NH.

I'll also mention the ruck that led to Biggar's winning penalty. Why were the England players so powder puff in clearing out Warbs and Jenkins? There were enough around and should've gone piling in.
I'm sure it will be looked into. The SH will be.

SH already aware mun. Have been for ages and ages.
See you back at home soon, son.

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Post by RubyGuby Thu 08 Oct 2015, 10:53 pm

Are you his father Cyril?

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Post by beshocked Fri 09 Oct 2015, 9:22 am

king carlos thank you well said. Make some great points more eloquently than myself.

Sgt Pooly if Haskell,Robshaw and Wood were tearing up opposition then I wouldn't have a case but Haskell has been in patchy international form for some time.

Haskell was man of the match vs Wales but seemed to be the weakest of the backrowers in the subsequent games.

Wood unfortunately hasn't shown his best form in recent games either. Yes Wood has got the reputation but that's not enough.

As for Robshaw, he's normally consistent but the stats against Australia showed his disappointing contribution.

Of course it would be a gamble to pick Itoje and of course he's not the finished article but I feel his youthful exuberance and natural leadership would have galvanised the team.

As for his breakdown skills yes they are a work in progress but who knows what gains he could have made if given a chance in the RWC?

Players can only grow and gain strength if given game time and opportunities.

Yes sometimes these opportunities aren't grasped but then a player goes back and works harder on their flaws like LCD with his throwing, Farrell with his general attacking, Goode on his pace etc.

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Post by LondonTiger Fri 09 Oct 2015, 9:26 am

Selecting Itoje ahead of proven international competitors would have been a risk even greater than the Burgess one.

At least the competition for centre spots were either pants or crocked.

With Itoje he had not done enough in the half a season he had played for Sarries or the Saxons to get ahead of Robwoodkell. Much has been made of his leadership, something no-one ever seems able to define the attributes of. Anyway his leadership qualities were not so obvious that he was named as captain for the 2014 JWC tournament for example. that privilege went to Callum Braley.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 09 Oct 2015, 9:52 am

Any guys...lots of good debate but hey its done now. Cant change anything.

Where do we go?

1) Should Lancaster stay. If not who is the options?
2) Should his coaches stay
3) Mass Changes or just a few subtle changes
4) Does Hartley come back in?
5) Does the style and tactics need to change?

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Fri 09 Oct 2015, 9:54 am

Unfortuantly we'll never know Beshocked.

Maybe Mark Wilson would have galvanised the pack and we'd have beat Wales. His strong carrying and breakdown work would have really complimented Robshaw/Billy.

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Post by LondonTiger Fri 09 Oct 2015, 9:58 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Unfortuantly we'll never know Beshocked.

Maybe Mark Wilson would have galvanised the pack and we'd have beat Wales. His strong carrying and breakdown work would have really complimented Robshaw/Billy.  


Not sure he will understand. Far too subtle.

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Post by fa0019 Fri 09 Oct 2015, 10:00 am

1. no. White, Mallet, Jones.
2. No. New coach needs to have his own choice of coaches. Else you're keeping the same rot. If he likes Rowntree, fine... if not, say sorry chap, head coach wants someone he knows/trusts etc. Can't undermine head coach else why change in first place.
3. Forwards yes, backs look ok to be honest.
4. Should retain his vc and Youngs should be dropped from entire squad until he puts on 10kg and can throw like a test player.
5. Need to move away from mid 90s jack rowell rugby yes. Game has moved on.

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Post by LondonTiger Fri 09 Oct 2015, 10:04 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Any guys...lots of good debate but hey its done now. Cant change anything.

Where do we go?

1) Should Lancaster stay. If not who is the options?
Lancaster shoudl be moved to Rob Andrew's job. Do not believe there is an outstanding option to become new head coach.

2) Should his coaches stay
Probably not.

3) Mass Changes or just a few subtle changes
Mass changes would be counter productive, pointless and indeed aimless. There needs to be an influx of new blood - but most of the current squad were the best players we had and will still be young enough for 2019.

4) Does Hartley come back in?
If he is playing well enough for Saints and has not been banned again.

5) Does the style and tactics need to change?
until the last minute panic, we were making progress in the backs. We are starting to have an attacking style that works. However the issues lie up front where we tried to move away from a traditional english forwards game to a high tempo NZ style - but with players without the skill to execute it (or the pace). So yes some changes needed.

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Post by LondonTiger Fri 09 Oct 2015, 10:06 am

Oh and before anyone suggests Nick Mallet - please do not. Man is so far past his sell by date he coudl be used as penicillin.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 09 Oct 2015, 10:11 am

fa0019 wrote:
5. Need to move away from mid 90s jack rowell rugby yes. Game has moved on.

Not sure we're still stuck there to be fair Fa....

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 09 Oct 2015, 10:13 am

Think that nails it LT thumbsup

Now lets shut this thread down Wink

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Post by fa0019 Fri 09 Oct 2015, 10:21 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
5. Need to move away from mid 90s jack rowell rugby yes. Game has moved on.

Not sure we're still stuck there to be fair Fa....

Leonard - decent scrummager never let his side down.
Moore - Great in loose, poor set piece by mid 90s.
Ubugo - weak scrummager, good in loose
Johnson - strong as ever, got into 95 team of the tournament if I recall.
Bayfield - Lineout. Nothing else.
Rodber - Lineout, nice carries.
Clarke - Good carries, good tackler. Bit slow, unfair on him as he was a eightman.
Richards - Maul legend.

now put out the England team of today and all you would have to do is change the names.

A little light upfront, set piece far from dominant (they were vs. the 1 days training NH counterparts but leagues below SH). Massive backrow... Richards was smallest at 6'4, 19st.

Have they really moved on???

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 09 Oct 2015, 10:23 am

LondonTiger wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Any guys...lots of good debate but hey its done now. Cant change anything.

Where do we go?

1) Should Lancaster stay. If not who is the options?
Lancaster shoudl be moved to Rob Andrew's job. Do not believe there is an outstanding option to become new head coach.

2) Should his coaches stay
Probably not.

3) Mass Changes or just a few subtle changes
Mass changes would be counter productive, pointless and indeed aimless. There needs to be an influx of new blood - but most of the current squad were the best players we had and will still be young enough for 2019.

4) Does Hartley come back in?
If he is playing well enough for Saints and has not been banned again.

5) Does the style and tactics need to change?
until the last minute panic, we were making progress in the backs. We are starting to have an attacking style that works. However the issues lie up front where we tried to move away from a traditional english forwards game to a high tempo NZ style - but with players without the skill to execute it (or the pace). So yes some changes needed.
Agree in general. However I believe we cannot keep Lancaster in the set-up. A new coach does not need the spectre (SPECTRE?) of a previous failed coach lurking in the shadows. But a new coach does need to pick his staff without contamination from pervious administrations.

Agree mass changes would be counter productive. Changes due to form and ability to play for the coaching staff. Hartley, as LT said, must be on form and under control.

I am not sure I have ever seen the current England team's style enunciated. All I see is a forward based up the gut offloading game combined with the occasional spin outside. Same tactics I used when coaching my son's U14s. So I would want a fresh set of ideas.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 09 Oct 2015, 10:35 am

fa0019 wrote:

Leonard - decent scrummager never let his side down.
Rodber - Lineout, nice carries.

Really??


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Post by fa0019 Fri 09 Oct 2015, 10:37 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
fa0019 wrote:

Leonard - decent scrummager never let his side down.
Rodber - Lineout, nice carries.

Really??


in the mid 90s you didn't rate his scrum work?

Rodber was an excellent player IMO. You didn't rate? Thought he was perhaps unlucky not to be named England captain after Carling stepped down.

His tackling was huge in the 94 series in SA. Then his lions exploits 3 years later. Good rep in SA.

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