England Post World Cup

First topic message reminder :

Who comes in...and who goes

How about this team for the next game after the WC

1 Marler
2 Tommy Taylor (Sale)
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Lawes (Itoje on the bench)
6 Ewers
7 Kvesic (Clifford on the bench)
8 Morgan

9 Youngs
10 Slade
11 May
12 Tom Stepheson / Sam Hill
13 Joseph
14 Watson
15 Brown

Look dispite England's departure from the RWC, i actualy think thaty SL as not done a bad job. I would be prepared to give him a second chance, at least he should stay untill the end of the 6ns. if England do not win the 6ns, then think about making changes to the coaching squad.

The other coaches? well they may after go to be honest.

TightHEAD wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:
How come Irish Provinces always get great Kiwi coaches.

No Tax.

I meant they always seem to find good ones.

GeordieFalcon wrote:We then come back to who replaces him....

Mallet - No thanks
Mallinder - Unconvinced
Dean Richards - Ruled himself out and wouldn't be picked after his ban anyway
Rennie - Don't know much about him
Jake White - No thanks
Eddie Jones - Great coach, but hes an Aussie and would he stay long term? I don't think so.
Wayne Smith - Is he a full head coach?
Dai Youngs - Doing very well with Wasps....but nope.
Ford - Unconvinced
Steve Diamond - Again Unconvinced
Baxter - A prospect but maybe give him more time with Exeter

Who else is there?

Any young Saffers at the Provinces?
Or Kiwis - How come Irish Provinces always get great Kiwi coaches.

Connor O'Shea?
Dai Young?
Sean Edwards?


Should a Prem coach come into the team in a deputy capacity to learn the role with a view of taking over long term, so some on the job training before getting the role?

Interesting Rugby World listed their team that we should be looking to get on the pitch.

1 Joe Marler
2 Jamie George
3 Paul Hill
4 Joe Launchbury
5 Mario Itoje (C)
6 Dave Ewers
7 Jack Clifford
8 Billy Vunipola

9 Ben Youngs
10 George Ford
11 Jack Nowell
12 Henry Slade
13 Manu Tuilagi
14 Anthony Watson
15 Matt Protheroe

I wouldn't want Young or Edwards involved tbh.

1. Keep SL with 3 top coaches
2. Baxter
3. White or Jones

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I wouldn't want Young or Edwards involved tbh.

1. Keep SL with 3 top coaches
2. Baxter
3. White or Jones

You know Sgt, I don't think Baxter would take it...so the alternative options are driving me to this one.

But there are conditions:
1) He gets the best coaches in possible.
2) He is on a serious leash and if the performances and tactics don't improve hes gone.
3) His Substitution and selection issues MUST be addressed

AND THE BIG ONE

NEVER MENTION FECKIN "CULTURE" AGAIN!!!!!!!!!

GeordieFalcon wrote:Interesting Rugby World listed their team that we should be looking to get on the pitch.

1 Joe Marler
2 Jamie George
3 Paul Hill
4 Joe Launchbury
5 Mario Itoje (C)
6 Dave Ewers
7 Jack Clifford
8 Billy Vunipola

9 Ben Youngs
10 George Ford
11 Jack Nowell
12 Henry Slade
13 Manu Tuilagi
14 Anthony Watson
15 Matt Protheroe

Hill with 0 AP games and never even heard of Protheroe.....nice.

Yeah Hill is one for the future....and ive never heard of the other one either.

Hill will be challenging Cole is a year or two buts he's nowhere near ready. He's the best young TH I've seen in a long time though, I really hope he kicks on.

1. Waller
2. Hartley
3. Hill

Could be fantastic

Scott Wilson has been playing very well in the warm ups...ill be curious to see how he goes on Friday night and through the season.

And Sinkler has apparently been working on his power as well...

Two potential young TH's there.

Protheroe was in the u18s this year! I think Watson will be the FB come the Japan World Cup.

For the 6n would you be inclined to bring Hartley back or (if he has a good start to the season) give Jamie George the spot.

Protheroe is about 9 stone wet atm, ridiculous selection!

I'd go Hartley starter with George off the bench

GeordieFalcon wrote:Interesting Rugby World listed their team that we should be looking to get on the pitch.

1 Joe Marler
2 Jamie George
3 Paul Hill
4 Joe Launchbury
5 Mario Itoje (C)
6 Dave Ewers
7 Jack Clifford
8 Billy Vunipola

9 Ben Youngs
10 George Ford
11 Jack Nowell
12 Henry Slade
13 Manu Tuilagi
14 Anthony Watson
15 Matt Protheroe

That team has barely over 200 caps. The whole point of going through four years of building a side is so you have a base of players for the next tournament. We found with Nick Easter that you write off what a player might contribute at your peril.

Of course rugby fan, it could gain a decent number by the next world cup...unless we have a coach that thinks numbers of caps is so important that it is integral to a winning WC team, and proceeds to develop a team of tyros just in time for a home world cup.

Hood83 wrote:Of course rugby fan, it could gain a decent number by the next world cup...

Whoever is in charge of England, I don't think we can afford to take that for granted.

Lancaster said in 2012 he was building towards an experienced squad by effectively starting from scratch. With around twelve tests a year, that's over 700 starting XV caps to award, and more for the bench, between World Cup cycles.

It sounds good, but it only really works out like that if you get your selection spot on from the outset, don't have any players lose form, and are lucky with injuries. You also have to decide not to bring in any new players from around two years out from the World Cup.

Why start from scratch and leave us hostage to fortune again?

Rugby Fan wrote:

Hood83 wrote:Of course rugby fan, it could gain a decent number by the next world cup...

Whoever is in charge of England, I don't think we can afford to take that for granted.

Lancaster said in 2012 he was building towards an experienced squad by effectively starting from scratch. With around twelve tests a year, that's over 700 starting XV caps to award, and more for the bench, between World Cup cycles.

It sounds good, but it only really works out like that if you get your selection spot on from the outset, don't have any players lose form, and are lucky with injuries. You also have to decide not to bring in any new players from around two years out from the World Cup.

Why start from scratch and leave us hostage to fortune again?

Exactly.

While there are a few players that probably should get dropped over the next year is go into the 6N's with close to the same team that started that final RWC game, only changing it to add a little more experience starting and a slightly younger bench.

Marler
Hartley
Cole
Lawes
Launchbury
Robshaw
kvesic
Easter
Care/Youngs
Ford
Yarde/Roko
Slade
Joseph/Tuilagi
Watson/Nowell
Brown

Mako, George, Wilson, Itoje, Burgess, Simpson, Cipriani, Daly

Obviously any number of players could be picked but to me that's a good mix of old and new, lots of dunamism with some grunt dotted around too. Daly on the bench because he's probably one of my favourite players to watch cover everywhere in the backs and can kick goals from 60m's+

If you mean why start from scratch again with a whole new group of players, I agree. If you mean why start from scratch again with a new coach I'd say, because Lancaster is someone who can't even effectively follow his own advice.

If a new coach comes in I very much doubt he'll make wholesale changes as they're not really there to make. But he might make the right changes like working out who can scrum effectively, ditching plodders like Wood etc.

That Rugby World XV is ridiculous. Protheroe is built like a streak of the proverbial. Is probably 2 years off even making the Gloucester 23.

You need to manage "experience " correctly though.

For example Barritt has a few caps...but I think hes finally proven that a young pretender offers more.

So experience is essential but not when the current high capped player is not good enough.

But it works both ways....don't throw out an old man if he offers much more than one of the kids....

Im also of the thought id look to start Jamie George rather Hartley.

Give him the spot...he has all the credentials and is only 24. With a hopefully rejuvenated Marler and Cole that would be a good front row.

Jamie George looked good when he started against Uragauy so why not given the first choice spot and put Young/Webber on the bench?

Hartley? if he wants his spot in the team/squad he should have to prove he deserves it.. and should not be allowed to come straight back in.....Oh and the same for Manu as well.

I think we could afford to lose a few experienced players.

Wood, Parling, Easter, Barritt, Haskell could all be moved on really.

It would be madness to discard Hartley, he's our best hooker and has years left at the top.

Personally interested to see how Auterac and Itoje start the season.

majesticimperialman wrote:Jamie George looked good when he started against Uragauy   so why not given the first choice spot and put Young/Webber on the bench?

Hartley? if he wants his spot in the team/squad he should have to prove he deserves it.. and should not be allowed to come straight back in.....Oh and the same for Manu as well.

What a genius idea - Picard

majesticimperialman wrote:Jamie George looked good when he started against Uragauy   so why not given the first choice spot and put Young/Webber on the bench?

Hartley? if he wants his spot in the team/squad he should have to prove he deserves it.. and should not be allowed to come straight back in.....Oh and the same for Manu as well.

Because looking good in the uruguay game is pretty meaningless?

He should get a chance in the next training squad but also remember that internet form changes on a monthly basis. Hartley and Youngs are both players who have something to offer now and in the future as well, picking the side for the next comeptitive game now is silly season.


There are players who should go from the squad though for sure.
Barrit is definately a player its worth moving on from, both in what hes actually delivered in and England shirt and on age. Brown will be a difficult choice, hes got a coupleof years left in him but would struggle to make the next world cup. Hes one of the few players who is really nailed on in his spot and has been once of Englands most consistent performers since he got it. Despite flopping against Austrlia he does deserve to retain it, but that is another position where an eye on the long term might look to make a change.
Picking Easter again obviously would be a real retrograde step. Parling too most likley has seen his last cap. hskell is unlikley to be at a the level required for the next world cup and has consitently failed to deliver enough to nail down a place..perhaps typifying the failings of the modern mobile big pansy forward.
I persoanlly would see a change in captain and only picking Robshaw if he shows the form to demand a place as a bold move to really shake things up. The big issue there of course would be finding someone to take that leadership role...Hartley? Wood (4 years ago he was talked about as a potential captain ahead of Robshaw, but is he worth a place in starting side at all?) Cole doesnt strike as that kind of leader. Giving it to Farrell ties England to a certain type of backs play, and with his ongoing yellow card issues isnt really an option surely.
That really flags up Englands issue with inexperience and lack of senior figures who have that presence and leadership ...despite all the talk over the last 4 years of building that. OK its been out of Lancaster hands that Hartley kept letting himself down but it has to be seen as another failure of the current regime.
Im sure someone would suggest that Slade could be capatin, 12 10 and Chuck Norris all at once. Or that we should give the job to Armitage.

My bit of optimism comes from still beleiving that these players are capable of producing more than they have done, and that we have seen Englands back produce better attacking rugby in short spells over the last few years than at we ever have before. The packs become a touch soft but there are some beasts out there and we can always get Armitages supplement suppliers in to beef them back up if needed. Mayvbe someone will figure out how to make Union Burgess look like the player in those highlight videos (although dont be amazed if he ends up scooting back to League again especially if he doenst make the 6 nations squad).

New coaches, a squad refresh and a refocus .. 4 more years of blind optimism/constant demands for change. So long as beat Wales...

There is a rather amusing article on English rugby in the kiwi press by Angus Morrison.

http://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/opinion/72813885/Morrison-An-open-letter-to-the-RFU-and-those-diehard-England-fans

Based on the WC not a word of a lie. Based on the last 18 months depressing to see how we performed in the WC.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It would be madness to discard Hartley, he's our best hooker and has years left at the top.

Personally interested to see how Auterac and Itoje start the season.

If he's back on form 7.5 then I accept your point, but he wasn't on top form in the 6n, though I cant comment on his club form. I just think George is worth looking at seriously. He does the basic hooker roles very well...is a big lad and gets around the park well also. And he is an additional carrier.

I agree about Auterac and Itoje. Auterac is a monster....lets hope he is technically good as well...then that's the LH spot sorted for the next 10 years!

Think he's got more chance replacing Youngs than Hartley all the same. LCD will also be around and seeing the work Baxter is doing you wouldn't bet against him improving would you?

LCD darts make Youngs look like Phil Taylor

I cannot see LCD ever throwing well enough.

George and Youngs struggled a little to the back. Webber struggled to the middle, but LCD could not even throw straight to the front.

When youngs has struggled (which is rarer tham most on here claim) it is usually because his back is playing up due mainly to being a centre before Meyer moved him forward. thus he never really built up a forwards back. LCD has always been in the front row.

Hence the last bit, or is he now cast in the Youngs role in future never to leave no matter how he does?

Surely the common sense approach (suggested by many) would be to weed out some of the older or less able players and bring in a few of the rising stars but not change too quickly.  In addition players such as George, Slade, etc. who are in the squad need to play.  The changes need not be wholesale decimation but could be done gradually because many of the players selected are the best options.

Robshaw should be dropped as captain and considered on merit (open mind here).  Chose the best 15 players and then pick a captain as there are no obvious players who merit being in the team just as captain.

Maybe the pack should be re-ballasted with options such as Attwood, Slater, Kitchener.

I am in two minds about experience.  Yes, it would be very nice if the centre pairing had ever played together before (or met). On the other hand many of the most experienced players performed the worse.

So changes could be evolutionary though some changes are very necessary.

The three hookers in the upcoming EPS will most likely be Hartley, Youngs and George. George has a real chance to secure the starting berth - so long as he can hold off Brits challenge at Sarries.

Of course Youngs needs to be starting for Tigers ahead of Ghiraldini and Hartley holding off the increasing threat of Haywood. The young Saint, who followed George into the England U20 team could well be our starting hooker by the next WC.

LCD just needs plenty of game time back at Exeter, but, as LT suggest he might never make the grade.

I'd personally discard Tom Youngs too, his set piece is a massive weakness. Get Hartley back in, along with George, Webber and a prospect (Walker?)

Think Walker needs real club game time too

Maybe Taylor at Sale can be the 4th guy in the squad. I'd go Hartley, Youngs, George

I woudl argue that Webber's setpiece is far worse than Youngs.

What was worrying about watching the squad in scrum training was that only Youngs was actually able to hook (and not all that well to be honest). We need all our hookers, even lumps, working on their flexibility so that the quick strike and out is actually an option. With a potentially devastating back line, why would we not want some quick ball.

At the weekend, Taylor looked like a flanker playing hooker and was getting munched in the scrums.

Youngs' setpiece I would say is better than Webber's. Need to see more of George but I'm not sure he's the answer in the scrum but has a good lineout.

I'd say Webber's scrummaging is much stronger than Youngs. He can also throw quite well when Parling isn't playing which is something Youngs can't. Webber isn't a fantastic thrower though.

What is the issues with our hookers??

Not having been in a lineout myself what exactly is this thing with Parling being asked to 'babysit' (term used by Stuart Barnes among others)? What does it mean? To me the lineout system whether it's being called by Parling or Lawes will be the same wouldn't it? Surely Parling was brought in for added leadership and the fact he's a good player.

Webber is unable to hook. He is weak in scrum in general, with the scrum generally weakened when he came on (especially noticeable against Fji where when Mako and Brookes came on we got the upperhand, but 15 minutes later when Webber came on we went backwards again)

Webber is unable to throw other than to the front.


Youngs tends to overthrow to the back, and crooked to the back. While the only hooker in the squad able to strike - he is not good at it. More powerful in scrums than ~Webber but lack of inches can unbalance the front row.


George - first throw always crooked, underthrows to the back. unable to strike, but destructive in a pushing scrum contest.

Hartley has started underthrowing, stands up in the scrums and has the discipline Paul Gascoigne at a free bar.


so not much wrong with the hookers.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not having been in a lineout myself what exactly is this thing with Parling being asked to 'babysit' (term used by Stuart Barnes among others)? What does it mean? To me the lineout system whether it's being called by Parling or Lawes will be the same wouldn't it? Surely Parling was brought in for added leadership and the fact he's a good player.

It is lazy journalism from a man who has no idea what goes on in the forwards.

Parlings experience in the lineout should mean he makes the right calls (not that it necessarily happens). Lawes seemed to be calling straight up and down jumps - making it much easier for intercepts which caused issues for Youngs and George against France. Ther was more movement forwards and back by the jumpers with Parling calling.

For me its two main issues
1) thee RFU need to get control back from the league
2) England need a better coaching setup. You need a real rugby brain in charge. Lancaster got a lot right ( discipline off feild, conditioning, team ethos) but in the end he made some poor selections and tactical errors that cost you. the team underperformed

Haha, good points LT, not too much to disagree with.

Youngs looks massively underpowered in the scrum. Opposition can always seem to get in between him and the props. I just don't rate the lad at all, I've always had an issue with him.

So basically same set of calls, just different ones made and more (better) jumpers?

Why do our forwards (possibly exception Haskell) always look fat? You look across the pack and they just don't look like modern rugby players.

Judgin by the comments, the pack that starts the 6n will be near enough the one that started this WC....

Well if that's the case the players need a serious kick up the aris and told they're all on serious scrutiny....

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Why do our forwards (possibly exception Haskell) always look fat? You look across the pack and they just don't look like modern rugby players.

Funnily enough I agree but I think they look lightweight . Apart from Haskell and Billy they all look underfed.

Look at Cole, he's more like a flanker than a TH Prop.

Now I appreciate modern players , fitter etc...but I want to see size. Look at Auterac or Sinkler or Davy Wilson. Now they look like big props!