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Who should be next England coach

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Who should be next England coach Empty Who should be next England coach

Post by nlpnlp Fri 09 Oct 2015, 1:01 pm

I think most of us are agreed that Stuart Lancaster should go as England coach - but who do you want to see get the job?  I think that Stuart Lancaster has proved that you need a coach who has a proven winning track record at the top level of club or international rugby.

Lets not turn this topic into a debate about which players should be in, or Stuart Lancaster's failings, those are valid issues for other topics.  Just who you think it should be and why.

I don't think any English coach has a record of success in the European Rugby Champions/Heineken Cup, or any track record of coaching abroad.  So I would go for an overseas coach and I think we should break the bank for the best 'available' coach, which for me is Wayne Smith.  Assuming Steve Hansen does not want to step down, would Smith be satisfied as being a number 2 for another 4 years?

Simple and short - Who and Why.

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Post by beshocked Fri 09 Oct 2015, 2:24 pm

Very much depends on who throws their hat in the ring.

Probably in order of preference for head coach.

1.Wayne Smith
2.Eddie Jones
3.Jake White
4.Shaun Edwards

All very experienced international coaches with good track records.

For other positions

Gustard - defence - proven track record with Saracens.
Baxter or Borthwick (if Eddie Jones in charge) - forwards, Baxter has turned Chiefs into a strong team, Borthwick has experience working with Eddie Jones.
King - attack - has done great job with Clermont and Saints attacks

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Post by TightHEAD Fri 09 Oct 2015, 2:41 pm

Hate to point out the fact but SL has been defending his record, I don't think he is going any where just yet.

But I would like Shaun Edwards involved somewhere.
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Post by SecretFly Fri 09 Oct 2015, 3:02 pm

Shaun Edwards? Gat's right leg? Gain one, cripple another.... cute.

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Post by yappysnap Fri 09 Oct 2015, 3:23 pm

Shaun Edwards as manager would be like Andy Robinson taking over from SCW

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Post by SecretFly Fri 09 Oct 2015, 3:32 pm

Why? Is he no good?

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Post by RubyGuby Fri 09 Oct 2015, 3:44 pm

I think it has to be a SH coach just to gain some objectivity here. There are also some great coaches such as Baxter in the premiership whom they might want to entice but for me the man at the top should come from the SH, who that is remains the question but I'd avoid Steve Hansen at all costs.

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Post by LondonTiger Fri 09 Oct 2015, 3:45 pm

SecretFly wrote:Why?  Is he no good?
Edward is an excellent defence coach with very limited experience as a head coach.

Robinson was an excellent forwards coach with very limited experience as a head coach.

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Post by LondonTiger Fri 09 Oct 2015, 3:49 pm

RubyGuby wrote:I think it has to be a SH coach just to gain some objectivity here. There are also some great coaches such as Baxter in the premiership whom they might want to entice but for me the man at the top should come from the SH, who that is remains the question but I'd avoid Steve Hansen at all costs.

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Who though?

Most SH coaches have struggled overall when coaching NH countries unless they were experienced in NH rugby (Gats in Ireland, Henry and Hansen in Wales, Williams in Scotland, Mallet and Kirwan in Italy).

Some good international SH coaches have struggled in NH club rugby too (Dwyer, Loffreda and Meyer at Leicester spring to mind)

What available SH coach is there with decent credentials and a feeling for NH rugby?

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Post by Fanster Fri 09 Oct 2015, 3:49 pm

Lancaster should go nowhere...

English media were the ones piling the pressure on, convincing the world Egland were clear favourites. Whoever agreed to all the publicity, and comitments to key players is massively at fault too (If that is Lancaster, and I can't beleive it was then he has to learn from it).

England arent suddenly a bad team because they were mugged by Wales (lets be honest, they were dominant for 65, then let nerves get to them), and under the pressure cooker, of the likes noone has ever seen before (Including NZ 2011), they crumbled v Australia.

England to start again with a new coaching regime would be reactional, and not considered and thoughtfull, I don't see that happeneing.

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Post by RubyGuby Fri 09 Oct 2015, 4:14 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
RubyGuby wrote:I think it has to be a SH coach just to gain some objectivity here. There are also some great coaches such as Baxter in the premiership whom they might want to entice but for me the man at the top should come from the SH, who that is remains the question but I'd avoid Steve Hansen at all costs.

thumbsup

Who though?

Most SH coaches have struggled overall when coaching NH countries unless they were experienced in NH rugby (Gats in Ireland, Henry and Hansen in Wales, Williams in Scotland, Mallet and Kirwan in Italy).

Some good international SH coaches have struggled in NH club rugby too (Dwyer, Loffreda and Meyer at Leicester spring to mind)

What available SH coach is there with decent credentials and a feeling for NH rugby?

LT - Gatland and Schmidt are good examples, to quote Italy and Scotland is to underestimate the resources etc. and Hansen IMO was never any good but was given the golden seat at NZ as they like continuity. - I think they need to be patient and maybe bring in a Caretaker for 6 months whilst they take stock and rethink who's available and who really has the credentials. Chieka IMO for example was always going to be a top coach at this level and the Irish Provinces are masters at recruiting top coaches.


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Post by LondonTiger Fri 09 Oct 2015, 4:21 pm

Gatland after struggling with Ireland (politics mainly I believe) built his credentials at Wasps and was a good coach with a detailed understanding of NH game and thought processes.

Schmidt gained the experience he needed at Leinster.

Guys like them just not around at the moment.

Thus we get offered dinosaurs or guys who wish to cut their international teeth in NH rugby before taking the NZ job.

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Post by LondonTiger Fri 09 Oct 2015, 4:27 pm

Also the problem with bringing in a caretaker is that we repeat four years ago.

Lancaster was meant to be a caretaker - but did so well that the only other applicant for the full job was Nick Mallett - who completely fluffed the interview when he struggled to name a single English player.

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Post by Fanster Fri 09 Oct 2015, 4:29 pm

I don't see Shaun Edwards leaving Wales anytie soon...

Unless courted by the RFU, of which last time he applied they rejected him and offered him a lesser, saxons type role didn't they?

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Post by hugehandoff Fri 09 Oct 2015, 4:31 pm

We really do need a new coach who is experienced at international level. I would be happy with Jake White, Eddie Jones or Nick Mallet and especially so if Wayne Smith was their no.2 (apparently Wayne is not a head coach and does not want to be). I cannot believe that the RFU passed up the White/Smith duo last time in favour of SL picard

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Post by Bathman_in_London Fri 09 Oct 2015, 4:32 pm

I think I'm right in saying that Smith was interested previously, but he liked the idea of working with Mallett. When that didn't work out he wasn't as keen to work with people he hadn't done with before.
Certainly an advantage of a big name is the ability to attract quality coaches under him, these are the guys after all who actually put the players through their paces.

Now Ireland and Scotland have taken the two good Kiwi European coaches, its hard to see any in France/Ireland who would be suitable.

Which I guess leaves someone from the SH or working in the AP, or a combination of the 2.
What is a certainty is that Andrew and the blazers who run the process will manage to screw it up somehow...

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Post by SecretFly Fri 09 Oct 2015, 4:36 pm

I don't think an inability to name players should have been considered a fluff.  

That's what's often possibly wrong with the English way - too much regard for needless stuff on the sidelines.

I don't think 'dinosaurs' should be on the consideration list at this stage anyway - they've had their time many of them and it's a time when Nations need to give a new crop of up and coming coaches (or certainly less long in the tooth ones) a go.
But not knowing player's names before taking the job??...much too clichéd Interview over-kill formality if that was the reason a coach wouldn't be considered.  
It doesn't matter who he doesn't know before he takes the job - it's who he gets to know and who he can get most out of when he does assume the role.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 09 Oct 2015, 4:38 pm

Am I right in saying that Wayne Smith hasn't been very interested in a head coach role for close to a decade now? I thought that following his brieft stint as ABs head coach and the top job at Saints he has been quite happy in more a back seat role.

If by some miracle they can be tempted away from Chiefs, I personally would be very happy with Dave Rennie in the top job and Wayne Smith as assistant.

Head coach - Dave Rennie
Asst coach and backs coach - Wayne Smith
Defence coach - Paul Gustard
Forwards coach - Rob Baxter

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Post by SecretFly Fri 09 Oct 2015, 4:41 pm

Mike Ford. Should be told to reconsider his rejection of the idea. If he keeps refusing, land him with a Treason charge and throw him in the Tower until he comes around to the idea Cool

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Post by Rory_Gallagher Fri 09 Oct 2015, 4:43 pm

What if Lancaster does decide to stay? Do none of you see that as a possibility?

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Post by lostinwales Fri 09 Oct 2015, 4:45 pm

SecretFly wrote:Mike Ford.  Should be told to reconsider his rejection of the idea.  If he keeps refusing, land him with a Treason charge and throw him in the Tower until he comes around to the idea Cool

I know its an strange idea but wouldn't that lead to, you know, accusations of picking his son over other options?

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Post by LondonTiger Fri 09 Oct 2015, 4:45 pm

hugehandoff wrote:We really do need a new coach who is experienced at international level. I would be happy with Jake White, Eddie Jones or Nick Mallet and especially so if Wayne Smith was their no.2 (apparently Wayne is not a head coach and does not want to be). I cannot believe that the RFU passed up the White/Smith duo last time in favour of SL picard  

They did not apply for the job, so how did they pass them over.

Mallett woudl be an unmitigated disaster.

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Post by LondonTiger Fri 09 Oct 2015, 4:48 pm

SecretFly wrote:But not knowing player's names before taking the job??...much too clichéd Interview over-kill formality  if that was the reason a coach wouldn't be considered.  
It doesn't matter who he doesn't know before he takes the job - it's who he gets to know and who he can get most out of when he does assume the role.

Pretty shocking preparation for a job interview though. I am sure most of us have interviewed people for a job who had no idea what the company actually did - even in vague terms.

Anyone applying for a coaching job when asked "Which players have impressed you, and who would you look to make as cornerstones of your team" should at least be able to do something other than stutter and mumble (I am surmising here of course).

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Post by SecretFly Fri 09 Oct 2015, 4:56 pm

lostinwales wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Mike Ford.  Should be told to reconsider his rejection of the idea.  If he keeps refusing, land him with a Treason charge and throw him in the Tower until he comes around to the idea Cool

I know its an strange idea but wouldn't that lead to, you know, accusations of picking his son over other options?

Well this time it would be about picking the right son! Whistle

Seriously. It'd be a design to get England firing more consistently in a positive way. Let's face it, not many people would be moaning about any Farrell family connection had England beaten both Wales and Australia. It's not the family connection that's the issue but the lack of effectiveness of it in the eyes of the critics

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Post by SecretFly Fri 09 Oct 2015, 5:05 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
SecretFly wrote:But not knowing player's names before taking the job??...much too clichéd Interview over-kill formality  if that was the reason a coach wouldn't be considered.  
It doesn't matter who he doesn't know before he takes the job - it's who he gets to know and who he can get most out of when he does assume the role.

Pretty shocking preparation for a job interview though. I am sure most of us have interviewed people for a job who had no idea what the company actually did - even in vague terms.

Anyone applying for a coaching job when asked "Which players have impressed you, and who would you look to make as cornerstones of your team" should at least be able to do something other than stutter and mumble (I am surmising here of course).

I get where you're coming from Tiger but personally I find the whole culture around The Interview to be pretentious, often plain idiotic, designed not to get best candidates but moreso for a company to feel self-important:  "Why do you want to come work for us?"

"Money" Wink  Money.  Your company is as good as the next and by the way, I'll be having another interview tomorrow for a rival company and I'll say the exact same thing to them...

No - Interviews in the modern world have become performances.  Talk philosophical aspirational bunk, say things you don't mean - lay on the praise and lick ass as much as possible and you might be in....

Truly talented people, meanwhile, are always more self-obsessed.  They don't rightly care about the company they're applying to, only their own skills and advancement.

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Post by madmaccas Fri 09 Oct 2015, 5:08 pm

What about Mallinder? He's done pretty well for Saints over the years (which is more than can be said for Lancaster whose club coaching includes Leeds Academy and then a year coaching the Tykes in the Championship). He has the respect of the players and know them all inside out.

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Post by beshocked Fri 09 Oct 2015, 5:41 pm

Madmaccas the problem with Mallinder is he has no international experience.

I wouldn't pick an AP DOR for that reason either.

I think King carlos' coaching set up would be good but didn't Wayne Smith turn down England before?

Experience is what England need in the coaching department.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 09 Oct 2015, 6:01 pm

Beshocked - I believe Smith turned down being a part of Bombers set up when asked late on, once the other coaches were in place. I don't think why he wasn't interested was disclosed, and probably won't be, but Lancaster made his interest in working with Smith very clear but he didn't get on board for whatever reason.

The other good thing about Smith as a coach is that he won't likely be using a NH appointment as an audition for a top job back home as LT puts it.

He had the top job in NZ before, by all accounts didn't enjoy it hugely and since has thrived in back seat roles.

If we want him on board it will be reliant on two things IMO.

1) The right head coach being in place for him to work under. One who he would trust to get the balance right between taking charge of the big decision but still giving Smith a good influence in how the side plays. Hence why Rennie would be a great coup.

2) Smith being excited about what he could do with the players at his disposal. He strikes as a man who coaches because he loves rugby and enjoys trying to help shape how a side can progress and how the game gets played. If he feels England have players in the system who he is excited about working with then I could see him getting on board.

If he doesn't then I'm not sure why he would leave the NZ set-up where he gets to work with a production line of incredibly talented players at the Chiefs playing a great brand of rugby. Plus he is still very highly regarded by the NZ coaching staff and has retained an input there. He is after all working with the ABs at this RWC!

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Post by 21st Century Schizoid Man Fri 09 Oct 2015, 6:06 pm

Jose Morinho or some other wendyball dud !
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Post by majesticimperialman Fri 09 Oct 2015, 7:05 pm

I do think/believe that who ever it is that takes over as England coach should have international experience. But does it have to be a SH coach?

Is their no one in the NH with international experience?

Is it just SL who needs replacing?  Or is it the whole coaching staff?

Will this new coach who takes over have enough time to build the team/squad for the 6Ns? or will it be another near close but not close enough?

What will it take? England have the talent but who is good enough to bond this talent into a wining team/squad?

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Post by Rugby Fan Fri 09 Oct 2015, 7:41 pm

I don't want White, Jones or Mallett.

White may well give England a harder edge but it won't be much fun to watch. I don't think his style would play to our potential strengths either.

I doubt anyone would seriously have considered Eddie Jones a few years ago. It's been a good cup for Japan but that's no indication of how he would do in England. Jones had two stints managing Japanese club sides before he took the national job. His only experience in Europe is an advisory role with Saracens for a few months. That's not good enough.

Mallett hasn't done anything of note for a few years. If coaching class was permanent, we'd do just as well to look at Woodward. It isn't, and we aren't. I also have a feeling that Mallett would handle the scrutiny which comes with the England job poorly.

If we are looking for new coaches, we should be aware that other teams might also be in the same market. Japan are looking, and there could be one or two top teams searching for coaches depending on how results go.

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Post by wales606 Fri 09 Oct 2015, 7:55 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:

Is their no one in the NH with international experience?

Declan Kidney?
Mike Ruddock?
Andy Robinson? (again?)
Marc Lièvremont?
Eddie O'Sullivan?

laughing laughing laughing
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Post by Pal Joey Sat 10 Oct 2015, 3:42 am

Jürgen Klopp

Spoiler:
Who should be next England coach Jc3bcr10
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Post by Gwlad Sat 10 Oct 2015, 5:32 am

Im confused, the over long contract and inferred excuses about inexperienced players made it clear Lancaster was aiming at 2019 not 2015, isn't he bang on track therefore, achieving his aim to qualify for the next RWC where obviously England will be the BEST team in the world again and win the RWC?

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Post by aucklandlaurie Sat 10 Oct 2015, 5:51 am


Lancaster will have to remain coach for the freseeable future, as the there wouldnt be enough time to change coaches between now and the 6 nations which is only a couple of months away.

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Post by Gwlad Sat 10 Oct 2015, 5:53 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Lancaster will have to remain coach for the freseeable future, as the there wouldnt be enough time to change coaches between now and the 6 nations which is only a couple of months away.

That would be a seriously bad move. Get rid of him asap. He is a loser and the sooner england disassociate from him and his stupid ideas the better.

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Post by aucklandlaurie Sat 10 Oct 2015, 6:14 am

Gwlad wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
Lancaster will have to remain coach for the freseeable future, as the there wouldnt be enough time to change coaches between now and the 6 nations which is only a couple of months away.

That would be a seriously bad move. Get rid of him asap. He is a loser and the sooner england disassociate from him and his stupid ideas the better.


They cant, if they were going to get rid of him they should have done it two years ago, thats why its vital that they win the next couple of six nations competitions, and they wont do that changing coaches at the last minute. if he cant notch up a couple of six nations victories then I cant see how anyone would expect him to bring home a World Cup.

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Post by dallym Sat 10 Oct 2015, 6:29 am

Robbie Deans would be pretty good

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Post by aucklandlaurie Sat 10 Oct 2015, 6:36 am


As good a coach as Robbie is, I dont think he would be the right coach for England, they need an English person not a Kiwi.

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Post by cb Sat 10 Oct 2015, 7:36 am

I am not against Lancaster staying, there is plenty of time to consider options.  Any new coach has to be the right choice for England (and how they want to play).  Jake White may not work.  Just as an analogy, Leicster kept picking foreign coaches (Dywer, etc.) and none of these worked out.

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Post by nathan Sat 10 Oct 2015, 8:25 am

I think Lancaster will stay and think people on here are just looking for some magical quick fix

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Post by offload Sat 10 Oct 2015, 8:28 am

Lancaster should not be sacked for losing a couple of matches - it's sport, it happens. England are a decent team but not world beaters.  He should only be replaced if his bosses believe he made poor decisions, and if he can't learn from those errors of judgement.  

It would seem that most commentators believe Lancaster's mistakes were mostly selection eg moving away from Ford, picking a forward in the centre, playing Farrell in the centre, taking Slade and not playing him, poor bench cover.  If his bosses agree and Lancaster won't admit these "errors" he should go.

If England believe they will be better off with a fresh start they need to find an experienced coach at international level, not another coach with a good club record.

Wales made a big mistake appointing Jenkins who had a great record with the Scarlets - he ways way out of his depth with Wales.  Look at the impact Gatland had with largely the same players.  Some of the names being suggested like Mallinder, Baxter etc need to cut their teeth as international assistants first.
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Post by nathan Sat 10 Oct 2015, 9:02 am

I do think the route from playing junior international games has improved, but I do think the RFU need to work on succession planning for English coaches. They seem to want to pick English coaches, but need to put more effect into training them

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 10 Oct 2015, 9:03 am

http://www.sportsmole.co.uk/rugby-union/england/news/england-approach-nick-mallett_251653.html#$$nvzvgt&&ozwfhm8kEeWDlxKp/GPoWQ$$

Mallet reported to have been approached

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Post by LondonTiger Sat 10 Oct 2015, 9:04 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:http://www.sportsmole.co.uk/rugby-union/england/news/england-approach-nick-mallett_251653.html#$$nvzvgt&&ozwfhm8kEeWDlxKp/GPoWQ$$

Mallet reported to have been approached

RFU deny any approach. To be honest while they may have done, this also sounds like typical Mallet grandstanding.

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Who should be next England coach Empty Re: Who should be next England coach

Post by offload Sat 10 Oct 2015, 9:07 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:http://www.sportsmole.co.uk/rugby-union/england/news/england-approach-nick-mallett_251653.html#$$nvzvgt&&ozwfhm8kEeWDlxKp/GPoWQ$$

Mallet reported to have been approached

Unfortunately England have a habit of behaving in an underhand fashion when it comes to rugby appointments. I hope they are honest and treat Lancaster with some respect this time.
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Who should be next England coach Empty Re: Who should be next England coach

Post by nathan Sat 10 Oct 2015, 9:08 am

I think is mallet trying to grab a bit of limelight

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Who should be next England coach Empty Re: Who should be next England coach

Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 10 Oct 2015, 9:17 am

Possibly, but it's a little odd to come out with such a thing. A little worrying if he has been approached, he's not the ideal candidate imo.

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Who should be next England coach Empty Re: Who should be next England coach

Post by Rugby Fan Sat 10 Oct 2015, 9:43 am

Whether the same team stays in place, or new men are appointed, I hope England players and coaches are getting a good look at the press reaction.

While there are some good, insightful contributions, there's an awful lot which seems petty, vindictive and in some cases downright malicious.

Unfortunately, that's the economics of English rugby for you. At this point in the tournament, newspapers were still hoping to have player profiles, squad interviews, opposition analysis, and the like to pad out their coverage.

There's still plenty of great rugby to come but, the truth is, the papers have just watched a large part of the potential audience melt away. I'm a keen rugby fan, and still watching the games, but I doubt I'm alone in losing my appetite for reading everything I can.

In its place, then, journalists are going out of their way to look for signs of internal dissent, character flaws and management man sausage-ups. That kind of sensationalism might bring page views and clicks. It happened four years ago too.

On top of that, it looks like some of the Aviva coaches want their pound of flesh. Four of them were quoted being critical of the England campaign. Again, economics is likely to be the driving factor more than personal ambition.

All Aviva clubs would have been hoping to take advantage of a higher profile for the sport and now that prospect seems extremely dim. Moreover, head coaches will be concerned their returning players will be mentally shot. It's natural they would look to blame the England set-up for any problems they encounter further down the line.

All England coaches need a fairly thick skin. It's true for other countries too of course but, as everyone keeps repeating, there's a lot of money at stake in England. My views about English rugby are coloured by how I feel about our sporting achievements. For many commentators and journalists, though, it also the bank balance calling the shots.

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Who should be next England coach Empty Re: Who should be next England coach

Post by WELL-PAST-IT Sat 10 Oct 2015, 9:55 am

There is one name no one has mentioned, he has vast experience of international rugby as a player, showed he understands how to manage a team as a DoR, plays exactly the sort of rugby England are trying to play.

Unfortunately he has blood on his hands, or more precisely in someone's mouth.

Would the RFU forget about the past and talk to Deano. They could do a lot worse and one thing is certain, he would control the team and he would not take any bullsh1t from the likes of Farrell Snr.
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Who should be next England coach Empty Re: Who should be next England coach

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