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Who should be next England coach

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Who should be next England coach - Page 2 Empty Who should be next England coach

Post by nlpnlp Fri 09 Oct 2015, 1:01 pm

First topic message reminder :

I think most of us are agreed that Stuart Lancaster should go as England coach - but who do you want to see get the job?  I think that Stuart Lancaster has proved that you need a coach who has a proven winning track record at the top level of club or international rugby.

Lets not turn this topic into a debate about which players should be in, or Stuart Lancaster's failings, those are valid issues for other topics.  Just who you think it should be and why.

I don't think any English coach has a record of success in the European Rugby Champions/Heineken Cup, or any track record of coaching abroad.  So I would go for an overseas coach and I think we should break the bank for the best 'available' coach, which for me is Wayne Smith.  Assuming Steve Hansen does not want to step down, would Smith be satisfied as being a number 2 for another 4 years?

Simple and short - Who and Why.

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Post by Happytravelling Sat 10 Oct 2015, 10:17 am

Rugby fan, good comment.

As always happens (and not just in England), disappointed fans are looking for scapegoats and quick fixes when, more often than not, there isn't one. The press take advantage to fill column inches.

For every 'quick fix' we can all list 5 or more failures. For every Cheika, there are Henson's, gatland's (Ireland) etc.

Just as with soccer, the call for experience is often a red herring. It's important to get the right coach not somebody who was the right coach on another continent etc.


To be fair to SL he took over England from a low ebb and with little experience. Despite the disappointment of the tournament, there is no doubt the England team is in a better position than when he took over. Plenty of good coaches have had similar experiences, gatland, SCW.

I'm not in a rush to replace him. I'd be OK to give him a 6Ns or so to show further progress.

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Post by George Carlin Sat 10 Oct 2015, 10:22 am

Wayne Smith is streets ahead of just about anyone else, including Eddie Jones.

The number of things Smith will have seen in being with the All Blacks for so long have simply got to have given him the optimal way to do a very large number of things.

All I hope for the sake of English rugby is that the RFU do not interfere one iota with the new coach's backroom staff. Smith (or whomever) should be given the option to keep or sack one, two or all of who remains once Lancaster has shuffled out with his large pay off for his contract having been bought out.

Ritchie has to go too, incidentally because that long term, high value deal heading into the World Cup was absolutely criminal. Rob Andrew is probably safe enough for now.
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 10 Oct 2015, 10:27 am

I can't see a time Deano will ever be involved with England.

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Post by boomeranga Sat 10 Oct 2015, 10:31 am

Would there be barriers (thinking more about values or pride than anything else) to a non-English coach be appointed?

I think Jake White is the coach that virtually guarantees success, but it never seems to last more than two years before either he or everyone else involved gets the shirts.  

Even so, he seems to leave the place in a good state even if everyone hates him.  That's a positive!

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Post by hjumpshoe Sat 10 Oct 2015, 12:13 pm

I happen to think Lancaster has done a decent job on the whole, considering what he inherited. Who's to say that any other coach would have done better? While I personally think he made selection errors going into the Welsh match, in all honesty, his starting 15 mullered our boys for a good hour before what happened happened! Then against Oz, the pressure of the occasion, along with a fantastic Aussie performance, did for them! Even then, there were 15 mins in the second half where, but for the odd bounce of a ball or refs decision, that game could have ended very differently! Imo ol' Bomber shouldn't have got the gig in the first place but now that he's there, and he has a few years experience behind him, give him 2 more years! If England don't look to be getting there then maybe it's time to give another coach two years to build a team! #thegrassisalwaysgreener

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Post by beshocked Sat 10 Oct 2015, 12:44 pm

It's funny how many Welshmen want Lancaster to stay as England coach. Sadly I am not surprised why!


Happy travelling It's a myth that England are in a better position.

Low ebb and little experience is still where England are. Still so many question marks.

Lancaster can't take credit for having more players to use. That's the grassroots, the clubs, the U20s sides etc.

He is wasting the talent developed.

He's gone from 2nd in his first 6 nations tournament to going out of the pool stages of the RWC with plenty of things that need fixing.

The Australians and Welsh look well coached, England don't.

Lancaster has had plenty of time, it's not good enough.

At least if we bring in someone new now they will have plenty of time before Japan 2019 instead of sticking with a coach like Lancaster who has won nothing.

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Post by Barney McGrew did it Sat 10 Oct 2015, 12:58 pm

After 4 years SL’s England have failed in the most spectacular way. They didn’t try their befuddled best and go out in the quarters. They didn’t go out fighting by at least beating 1 top side. They didn’t take an unfancied and hopeless team to the finals by sheer will-power and grit. They didn’t chuck dwarves around willy-nilly, and kiss the girls. The crashed and burned after 3 games in a home RWC that some thought they’d go all the way in.

I’m really not sure how Stewie’s failure could be any greater. Even his team ethics bit hit the bumpers with Dylan, Manu and co. Not to mention his public calling out of his captain.

Every bit of available evidence suggests England have gone backwards under his reign, relative to our competitors.  Not only have our perennial problems at centre not been improved, but we’ve developed weaknesses in areas even our poor sides of the recent past have been ok in – the scrum, the LO, the breakdown. Even the bench has regressed. Cole is a shadow of his best, ickle TY is just too err ickle, the BR lacks balance, the SR is just back from injury (ok ok, not SL’s fault), we can’t make our mind up between the very different styles of Farrell and Ford, and don't start me on our centres. And as for our much vaunted back 3 – are they really any better than MJ’s Cueto, Foden & Ashton when these 3 were at their best? Time will tell. And what is our game-plan?

SL is a decent man, and tries hard as a coach. If you’re happy with mediocrity, he da man. He epitomises the current England – so much potential but so little end result. Maybe he’s just slow and requires the full 8 years, but I’d say he’s had enough time to leave his mark. IMO the one and only good thing to come from this debacle is that the decision on the England coach should be out of his hands. I couldn’t care less what he thinks about his England future, it’s his bosses who should be making the decisions - and looking for a new man. They mustn’t procrastinate – the last 8 years (and more) have shown how long it can take to ‘rebuild’.
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Post by wayne Sat 10 Oct 2015, 1:04 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
Lancaster will have to remain coach for the freseeable future, as the there wouldnt be enough time to change coaches between now and the 6 nations which is only a couple of months away.

That would be a seriously bad move. Get rid of him asap. He is a loser and the sooner england disassociate from him and his stupid ideas the better.


They cant, if they were going to get rid of him they should have done it two years ago, thats why its vital that they win the next couple of six nations competitions, and they wont do that changing coaches at the last minute. if he cant  notch up a couple of six nations victories then I cant see how anyone would expect him to bring home a World Cup.
Sorry Laurie, that is so wrong, we (Wales) did exactly that in 2007 when we got rid of Jenkins in a knee jerk reaction and brought in Gatland and immediately won a GRAND SLAM, as Dean Ryan said on Scrum V last Sunday, if the RFU didn't have a contingency plan in place BEFORE this WC for this eventuality, they were effectively incompetent and going by what I've read it appears they have been.

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Post by George Carlin Sat 10 Oct 2015, 1:45 pm

England cannot be short termist or reactionary about this.

On 1 December, Warren Gatland will have been in charge of Wales for 8 years. England need that sort of consistency and longevity and can only hope that they employ someone who is able to demonstrate the consistent improvements that Gatland did over that period of time. They have chopped and changed too much recently and need to pick a great coach, pay them way over the odds to stay and then give them space to work. That last part is traditionally the hard part for the RFU.

If the RFU grow and pair and realise that they need serious and deep change at management level, they will not even start to give a cr@p about how England does in the upcoming 6 Nations. England have the perfect excuse for not doing well and any new coach would be smart enough to realise that there is no pressure upon him at all. A new coach (especially a foreigner) needs time with the players and to survey the Aviva to see who might be able to implement the playing style that the coach thinks may be most effective for the team. You cannot hurry that process.

Vern Cotter inherited a Scotland squad split in half on other sides of the globe on a 2 prongued summer tour to different places that Cotter correctly described as ridiculous. Did anyone blame him for us presenting a crazily young slide who got hammered by the Springboks? Of course not. He didn't organise the thing. Only now is Cotter seeing the fruits of his investment.
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Post by SecretFly Sat 10 Oct 2015, 1:48 pm

So.............................. after a week or so, is the answer: "We don't f**king know!"

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Post by George Carlin Sat 10 Oct 2015, 1:54 pm

SecretFly wrote:So.............................. after a week or so, is the answer: "We don't f**king know!"
The answer is Wayne Smith, on a salary that lets him live in a decent townhouse in Richmond, with whatever backroom staff he wishes, on a 3 year contract. Simples.
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Post by SecretFly Sat 10 Oct 2015, 2:02 pm

Rubbish George as you know and I know he'd laugh out loud and tell the officious folk where to go when they first bring up the idea that he leads a horse around a paddock so that they can rate his leadership skills

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Post by SecretFly Sat 10 Oct 2015, 2:02 pm

You can lead a horse to water but a horse ain't an ass.

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Post by HammerofThunor Sat 10 Oct 2015, 3:17 pm

George Carlin wrote:England cannot be short termist or reactionary about this.

On 1 December, Warren Gatland will have been in charge of Wales for 8 years.

But that's not about the 8 years, it's the fact Gatland has done well for them. If they had given Gareth Jenkins 8 years would they be where they are now?

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Post by wayne Sat 10 Oct 2015, 3:57 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
George Carlin wrote:England cannot be short termist or reactionary about this.

On 1 December, Warren Gatland will have been in charge of Wales for 8 years.

But that's not about the 8 years, it's the fact Gatland has done well for them. If they had given Gareth Jenkins 8 years would they be where they are now?
Exactly, and the answer is NO

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 10 Oct 2015, 4:03 pm

SecretFly wrote:So.............................. after a week or so, is the answer: "We don't f**king know!"

No the answer is Rob Baxter replacing Lancaster and Gustard replacing Farrell. If Baxter wants any other adjustments then forwards coach Rowntree and backs coach Catt could also go.

Baxter is a man who's teams always have plan A, B and C and move between them in game adjusting tempo to suit. He's also good at bringing through young players in a competitive environment. Add in Gustard famous for the most brutal defence in NH rugby and I think we trade up without starting completely afresh.

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Post by offload Sat 10 Oct 2015, 4:21 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
SecretFly wrote:So.............................. after a week or so, is the answer: "We don't f**king know!"

No the answer is Rob Baxter replacing Lancaster and Gustard replacing Farrell. If Baxter wants any other adjustments then forwards coach Rowntree and backs coach Catt could also go.

Baxter is a man who's teams always have plan A, B and C and move between them in game adjusting tempo to suit. He's also good at bringing through young players in a competitive environment. Add in Gustard famous for the most brutal defence in NH rugby and I think we trade up without starting completely afresh.

Baxter has only coached Exeter University and Exeter. Although he's done a fantastic job with Exeter, why on earth would England go for yet another international virgin?
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 10 Oct 2015, 4:24 pm

To be fair, Baxter has much better credentials than SL had.

If we want English, they're not going to have International experience.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 10 Oct 2015, 4:37 pm

offload wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
SecretFly wrote:So.............................. after a week or so, is the answer: "We don't f**king know!"

No the answer is Rob Baxter replacing Lancaster and Gustard replacing Farrell. If Baxter wants any other adjustments then forwards coach Rowntree and backs coach Catt could also go.

Baxter is a man who's teams always have plan A, B and C and move between them in game adjusting tempo to suit. He's also good at bringing through young players in a competitive environment. Add in Gustard famous for the most brutal defence in NH rugby and I think we trade up without starting completely afresh.

Baxter has only coached Exeter University and Exeter.  Although he's done a fantastic job with Exeter, why on earth would England go for yet another international virgin?

Baxter knows English rugby and has the respect of all the AP coaches. He's created several teams at Exeter and created a winning culture. He hasn't managed an international team but that hasn't ruled out our other appointments. He's far more qualified than our two previous selections.

Lancaster had four years and managed less than Johnson did in three. We look even more foolish coming out of this RWC than we did the last one. Lancaster's position is untenable. Ask Baxter to combines roles until next summer and then that way Exeter can not feel hard done by.

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Post by George Carlin Sat 10 Oct 2015, 4:53 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
George Carlin wrote:England cannot be short termist or reactionary about this.

On 1 December, Warren Gatland will have been in charge of Wales for 8 years.

But that's not about the 8 years, it's the fact Gatland has done well for them.
Er, yes I know. That's why I went on to say exactly that.
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Post by offload Sat 10 Oct 2015, 4:55 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
offload wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
SecretFly wrote:So.............................. after a week or so, is the answer: "We don't f**king know!"

No the answer is Rob Baxter replacing Lancaster and Gustard replacing Farrell. If Baxter wants any other adjustments then forwards coach Rowntree and backs coach Catt could also go.

Baxter is a man who's teams always have plan A, B and C and move between them in game adjusting tempo to suit. He's also good at bringing through young players in a competitive environment. Add in Gustard famous for the most brutal defence in NH rugby and I think we trade up without starting completely afresh.

Baxter has only coached Exeter University and Exeter.  Although he's done a fantastic job with Exeter, why on earth would England go for yet another international virgin?

Baxter knows English rugby and has the respect of all the AP coaches. He's created several teams at Exeter and created a winning culture. He hasn't managed an international team but that hasn't ruled out our other appointments. He's far more qualified than our two previous selections.

Lancaster had four years and managed less than Johnson did in three. We look even more foolish coming out of this RWC than we did the last one. Lancaster's position is untenable. Ask Baxter to combines roles until next summer and then that way Exeter can not feel hard done by.

I'm not suggesting that Baxter isn't a good coach or perhaps a great choice if England want an English coach. My personal view is that England should appoint the best, most experienced international coach they can get. Why would one of the top tier 1 sides settle for less. The last 7 years + should have taught Egland the lesson of making poor coaching choices.
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Post by HammerofThunor Sat 10 Oct 2015, 5:00 pm

George Carlin wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
George Carlin wrote:England cannot be short termist or reactionary about this.

On 1 December, Warren Gatland will have been in charge of Wales for 8 years.

But that's not about the 8 years, it's the fact Gatland has done well for them.
Er, yes I know. That's why I went on to say exactly that.

You can't expect me to read everything! That's completely unreasonable. Smile

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Post by Rugby Fan Sat 10 Oct 2015, 5:23 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:...We look even more foolish coming out of this RWC than we did the last one...
I hope we make decisions based on more than the fear of looking foolish. I don't really care what others think of English rugby. I'd rather we had the confidence to do what's good for our own game, not try to impress anyone else.

One of the reasons Martin Johnson was selected, is that the RFU wanted to recapture the goodwill of sponsors and corporate UK with a figurehead from 2003. It was short-term thinking, and when Johnson was spat out in 2011, English rugby lost someone who could have been a great asset if cultivated better.

We keep hearing how England has the resources to go for the best but the key point is being able to judge for ourselves who is the best. That includes all members of the coaching set-up.

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Post by offload Sat 10 Oct 2015, 5:52 pm

Cuthbert dives over the line and touches down!!!!

Unfortunatley it's the touchline. picard
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Post by offload Sat 10 Oct 2015, 5:53 pm

offload wrote:Cuthbert dives over the line and touches down!!!!

Unfortunatley it's the touchline.   picard

Damn - wrong thread.
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Post by LondonTiger Sat 10 Oct 2015, 11:04 pm

New coach has been unveiled:


Who should be next England coach - Page 2 England-Bus

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Post by greenandpleasantland Sat 10 Oct 2015, 11:12 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
New coach has been unveiled:


Who should be next England coach - Page 2 England-Bus

Could be worse..

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Post by aucklandlaurie Sat 10 Oct 2015, 11:56 pm


Could of at least got matching hub-caps.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sun 11 Oct 2015, 12:21 am

Part of the problem is Lancasters mistakes and their consistency.

Some things he's done well. And If he has genuinely learned from this failure then I would be fine with him to stay.

The problem is I have no faith he has finally learned the lessons.....

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Post by DaveM Sun 11 Oct 2015, 12:52 am

furious
formerly known as Sam wrote:
offload wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
SecretFly wrote:So.............................. after a week or so, is the answer: "We don't f**king know!"

No the answer is Rob Baxter replacing Lancaster and Gustard replacing Farrell. If Baxter wants any other adjustments then forwards coach Rowntree and backs coach Catt could also go.

Baxter is a man who's teams always have plan A, B and C and move between them in game adjusting tempo to suit. He's also good at bringing through young players in a competitive environment. Add in Gustard famous for the most brutal defence in NH rugby and I think we trade up without starting completely afresh.

Baxter has only coached Exeter University and Exeter.  Although he's done a fantastic job with Exeter, why on earth would England go for yet another international virgin?

Baxter knows English rugby and has the respect of all the AP coaches. He's created several teams at Exeter and created a winning culture. He hasn't managed an international team but that hasn't ruled out our other appointments. He's far more qualified than our two previous selections.

Lancaster had four years and managed less than Johnson did in three. We look even more foolish coming out of this RWC than we did the last one. Lancaster's position is untenable. Ask Baxter to combines roles until next summer and then that way Exeter can not feel hard done by.

Baxter has said he isn't interested.

Seeing as Smith has turned down the chance to move to England before, and White's record doesn't suggest he'd still be England coach in 2019 I'm really not sure where England go. Mallinder is probably the strongest English candidate (given Ford only fancies the job after 2019), but I'm not sure I'd feel excited by that.

Unless of course SCW returns........

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Post by Rugby Fan Sun 11 Oct 2015, 1:22 am

It's sometimes the case that candidates who rule themselves out, want someone make them an offer to change their minds. Think Chris Evans and Top Gear.

When an employer pushes the boat out to get you, it not only makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside, it means they are more likely to meet your demands. When an organization commits money and resources to an appointment, it gives them a strong incentive to make the appointment work, or else they look bad themselves.

That's a key point. Clive Woodward had a conversation with Eddie Jones recently which I think appeared in the Mail. Jones said successful coaches often make enemies, because they demonstrate that everyone running the show previously got it wrong.

Any move to get rid of Lancaster or members of his team will raise questions about how those appointments were made in the first place. Anyone serious who wants his job won't stick their hand up: they would do wise to play hard to get, so they can dictate how far to be insulated from such matters.

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Post by Gwlad Sun 11 Oct 2015, 1:24 am

Personally I think the horse training is a good idea. I mean, a chariot with no horses is no use to anyone is it?

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Post by geoff999rugby Sun 11 Oct 2015, 9:56 am

Eddie Jones was on the radio yesterday and as good as said I'm available.

If England have any sense they should be talking to him straight away.

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Post by emack2 Sun 11 Oct 2015, 10:37 am

Eddie Jones/Jake White Coaches/managers,Skills coach Carlos Spencer,Scrum Coach Steve Borthwick,Kicking Coach Jonnie Wilkinson
Defence Coach A .N.Other.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun 11 Oct 2015, 10:42 am

You can keep Carlos Spencer, thanks anyway

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Post by LondonTiger Sun 11 Oct 2015, 10:50 am

Based on Eddie Jones history, he would up sticks and leave before the end of his contract.

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Post by rosbif Sun 11 Oct 2015, 10:57 am

I think Baxter has just signed a new 5yr contract at the Chiefs, Mallender would be abetter choice with Gustard and no RL influences

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Post by George Carlin Sun 11 Oct 2015, 11:05 am

How important is it to England fans that the head coach is English?

It seems from some of the replies on this thread to be very important indeed.
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Post by yappysnap Sun 11 Oct 2015, 11:07 am

Mallinder who keeps under performing with Saints? Has had little success in Europe and won 1 Prem trophy? Brilliant

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Post by LondonTiger Sun 11 Oct 2015, 11:14 am

George Carlin wrote:How important is it to England fans that the head coach is English?

It seems from some of the replies on this thread to be very important indeed.

I struggle to identify with my national team as it is. Introducing an overseas coach (especially one with zip experience of the English game), for me, would make that worse.

Frankly I am sick an tired of countries (and we are one of the worst) just cherry picking players with minimal nationality qualifications, which I feel is a damning indictment on rugby development in those countries. Finding you have to choose an overseas coach, again purely for me, is even more damning.


I do find it amusing how many people condemn "mercenary" players but perfectly happy with "mercenary" coaches.


thus in the same way that I prefer not to see Nathan Hughes playing for us, I would rather not see people like White and Jones - especially as my gut tells me they would only be interested in garnishing their reputations and would leave us in the lurch if they decided the job was too tough.

suspect I am very much in the minority though.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun 11 Oct 2015, 11:22 am

A residency rule for coaches could be interesting

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Post by cb Sun 11 Oct 2015, 1:50 pm

I think some foreign input would be fine (e.g. Wayne Smith) but not a knee-jerk re-action to "must" have a foreign coach.  The selection should be on merit and properly thought through.

Someone with international experience would be useful but not totally essential if supported by the right people.

Would not mind Woodward coming back in some capacity.

Not against Lancaster staying but the cricket approach has merit (selection is by the selection team of which the coach has a say).

Just on qualifications, there is perhaps some merit in saying players based abroad could be considered if they had achieved more than a certain number of caps (.e.g. 50).  They would have therefore served England and could be selected if still competitive.

On wild card thoughts what about Dean Ryan?

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Post by majesticimperialman Sun 11 Oct 2015, 2:04 pm

Dean Ryan? Headscratch

I don't think he would do England any good at all. Dean Richards? maybe but would the RFU really allow him any where near the International team because of blood gate? i don't think they would.

I want who ever it is that takes over to be the best coach that they can get. He needs to have full control over the team/squad and he needs to be able too select his own coaching team. And he needs to be installed before the 6ns. which is not that far away.


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Post by LondonTiger Sun 11 Oct 2015, 2:20 pm

"England coach should stay, says Graham Henry"

From the Beeb. Of course he said the same thing in 2011 I seem to recall.

In 2011 MJ panicked, reverted to solid, we went out in the 1/4s with all the off-field ignominy (much fair, some not - especially as the Irish lads went to the same bar in queenstown and did the same things). Johnson should never have been appointed, but who knows he may have learnt his lesson - refreshed the coaching team and England could have been the better for it.


In 2007 NZ fecked up. Can blame Barnes as much as they liked, but the team had opportunity to put the game against France to bed and choked as badly as England did against Wales two weeks ago. Henry was retained, and learnt from the lesson with the NZ team, under far more pressure than England this time round managed to win ugly in the final, retaining their composure so much better than in 2007.


1999 SCW made the exact same mistakes as MJ in 2011 and Bomber in 2015. He too got the chance to learn from and correct his mistakes and a much better prepared team, perhaps two years past its best, were composed enough to win a tough 1/4 final and final.



Not saying that Lancaster should be kept, just worried that yet again we will not be learning from the mistakes.


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Post by doctor_grey Sun 11 Oct 2015, 2:25 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
George Carlin wrote:How important is it to England fans that the head coach is English?

It seems from some of the replies on this thread to be very important indeed.

I struggle to identify with my national team as it is. Introducing an overseas coach (especially one with zip experience of the English game), for me, would make that worse.

Frankly I am sick an tired of countries (and we are one of the worst) just cherry picking players with minimal nationality qualifications, which I feel is a damning indictment on rugby development in those countries. Finding you have to choose an overseas coach, again purely for me, is even more damning.


I do find it amusing how many people condemn "mercenary" players but perfectly happy with "mercenary" coaches.


thus in the same way that I prefer not to see Nathan Hughes playing for us, I would rather not see people like White and Jones - especially as my gut tells me they would only be interested in garnishing their reputations and would leave us in the lurch if they decided the job was too tough.

suspect I am very much in the minority though.
Maybe a minority, but not alone. I believe we do have people who can coach England and do better than where we are now (bottom of the abyss). I think we tend to minimise the talent we have at home and amplify the talents of others. To me, England should be coached by the English. We do not have a great pathway for coach develop,ment and that is part of the problem. The Premiership is as tough a league as any in the world. And almost everyone describes the Euro club competition as the closest thing to Internationals. What then is the natural progression for coaches if not from the Premiership clubs at home and in Europe to England?

At this point in time, I think we need to cut the cord with the 2003 team and truly start anew. Coaches like Ford and Catt should not be associated. The current regime, the same. A true fresh start. With good solid coaches, with proven track records. And while we are at it, let's pick coaches from our sport, not from other ones like league.

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Post by majesticimperialman Sun 11 Oct 2015, 2:35 pm

Just been reading Graham Henrys post about keeping Stuart Lancaster as head coach.
He said who ever takes over will have to start over start a fresh. it will take at least 2 years be fore the coach gets his feet under the table and start to feel comfortable with the players.

I really don't think England can or need to wait 2 years just to get where we are now. We England need to move on from now, need to improve and not go back wards.


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Post by George Carlin Sun 11 Oct 2015, 2:50 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
George Carlin wrote:How important is it to England fans that the head coach is English?

It seems from some of the replies on this thread to be very important indeed.

I struggle to identify with my national team as it is. Introducing an overseas coach (especially one with zip experience of the English game), for me, would make that worse.

Frankly I am sick an tired of countries (and we are one of the worst) just cherry picking players with minimal nationality qualifications, which I feel is a damning indictment on rugby development in those countries. Finding you have to choose an overseas coach, again purely for me, is even more damning.


I do find it amusing how many people condemn "mercenary" players but perfectly happy with "mercenary" coaches.


thus in the same way that I prefer not to see Nathan Hughes playing for us, I would rather not see people like White and Jones - especially as my gut tells me they would only be interested in garnishing their reputations and would leave us in the lurch if they decided the job was too tough.

suspect I am very much in the minority though.
Maybe a minority, but not alone.  I believe we do have people who can coach England and do better than where we are now (bottom of the abyss).  I think we tend to minimise the talent we have at home and amplify the talents of others.  To me, England should be coached by the English.  We do not have a great pathway for coach develop,ment and that is part of the problem.  The Premiership is as tough a league as any in the world.  And almost everyone describes the Euro club competition as the closest thing to Internationals.  What then is the natural progression for coaches if not from the Premiership clubs at home and in Europe to England?  

At this point in time, I think we need to cut the cord with the 2003 team and truly start anew.  Coaches like Ford and Catt should not be associated.  The current regime, the same.  A true fresh start.  With good solid coaches, with proven track records.  And while we are at it, let's pick coaches from our sport, not from other ones like league.  
Predictably the NZ Herald this morning noted that the only home nation out of the RWC was one without a New Zealand coach.

Their point was that the style of game common in the NH is badly out of date in the modern game and England needs someone who can incorporate and successfully implement a breakdown-priority style with a creative midfield and minimal kick returns. A 'SH gameplan', in other words.

Just repeating a point of view, so no shooting the messenger, now...Run
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun 11 Oct 2015, 2:57 pm

They have a point, we are awful at the breakdown. Is that players or coaching?

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sun 11 Oct 2015, 3:18 pm

Coaching and selection and players out of form Sgt.

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Post by Barney McGrew did it Sun 11 Oct 2015, 3:34 pm

Couldn't care less where our next coach comes from. So long as he can recognize our best players, get the best out of them, plus a bit more - that's all that matters. The England test side should not be a training ground for wannabe English coaches - let them prove themselves first. At least SCW recognized that to be the best you have to surround yourselves with the best - we've gone backwards since then.
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