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QF1: South Africa v Wales, 17 October

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QF1: South Africa v Wales, 17 October - Page 4 Empty QF1: South Africa v Wales, 17 October

Post by George Carlin Sun 11 Oct - 7:08

First topic message reminder :

QF1: South Africa v Wales, 17 October - Page 4 Spring11        QF1: South Africa v Wales, 17 October - Page 4 Wales_13
SOUTH AFRICA v WALES

17 October 2015
16:00 BST (UTC+01)
Twickenham, London

Live on expensive telly

Ref: Wayne Barnes (England)
ARs: George Clancy (Ireland) and JP Doyle (England)
TMO: Graham Hughes (England)

A. Head to Head

30 Played 30
27 Won 2
1 Drawn 1
2 Lost 27
814 Points 440

B. Recent Form

29 November 2014
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
12–6 to Wales

21 June 2014
Mbombela Stadium, Nelspruit
31–30 to South Africa

14 June 2014
Growthpoint Kings Park, Durban
38–16 to South Africa

9 November 2013
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
15–24 to South Africa

11 September 2011
Wellington Regional Stadium, Wellington
17–16 to South Africa

13 November 2010
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
25–29 to South Africa

5 June 2010
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
31–34 to South Africa

8 November 2008
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
15–20 to South Africa

C. TEAMS:
SOUTH AFRICA
QF1: South Africa v Wales, 17 October - Page 4 Tanit_10
Le Roux; Pietersen, Kriel, De Allende, Habana; Pollard, Du Preez (capt); Mtawarira, B du Plessis, Malherbe; De Jager, Etzebeth; Burger, Louw, Vermeulen.

Replacements: Strauss for Du Plessis (55), Nyakane for Tendai Mtawarira (56), J Du Plessis for Malherbe (60), Du Toit for Etzebeth (67), Alberts for Louw (67), Lambie for Pollard (76), Serfontein for Kriel (67), Pienaar (unused).


WALES
QF1: South Africa v Wales, 17 October - Page 4 Cather10
Anscombe; Cuthbert, Morgan, Roberts, North; Biggar, G Davies; Jenkins, Baldwin, Lee; Charteris, AW Jones; Lydiate, Warburton (capt), Faletau.

Replacements: Owens for Baldwin (56), James for Jenkins (55), Francis for Lee (55), Davies for Charteris (63), Tipuric for Lydiate (67), L Williams for G Davies (70), Priestland for Biggar (73), Hook for Morgan (67).


Last edited by George Carlin on Sun 18 Oct - 7:47; edited 4 times in total
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Post by Guest Tue 13 Oct - 10:10

BamBam wrote:
BamBam wrote:With heart and soul Bilt Hug

Believe it or not, I'm not just doing it to wind up the Welsh either, I've always liked the Boks

I don't know why it would wind the Welsh up anyway? You're free to support whoever you like now your team is out of the World Cup.

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Post by Notch Tue 13 Oct - 10:12

Biltong wrote:You just have to love the media, this from the Guardian

"So, now Wales must face the Springboks who have recovered from being banished to the room of shame under the stairs, sent there by Japan. South Africa have recovered on a diet of beef and more beef. Smash and keep on smashing. Running rugby – not for the Bokke. They have reverted to enraged-rhino rugby.

If Wales can play a game of continuity, if they can slip passes out of the contact – or even before it – they can confuse the beast. If they fall into its grip they are doomed. Wales have suffered at the hands of the Australian scrum; now they must avoid the crush of the mauling, grappling heavyweights. It is time to reach for the box of tricks and improvisation."

I don't have the stats to hand but I'm willing to bet that South Africa have offloaded out of contact a lot more than Wales so far...
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Post by RubyGuby Tue 13 Oct - 10:13

With SA coming into form and looking complete from 1-15 this will be as big an ask as Australia and maybe some more - I'm a bit surprised with the assumption that SA will just bash it up - they have an OH who is a passer and a runner, 2 very exciting centres not in the mould of DeVillers and a back 3 as good as any in the tournament who can really burn things up. I think if the game gets loose SA have the players to take advantage, not wales. 15pt game to SA for me

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Post by RubyGuby Tue 13 Oct - 10:16

Biltong - Since when have the English media known anything about rugby!!! What else were you expecting from a media who to a tee had England beating Aus across the board with little question of the possible alternative. They seem to want to ignore facts and write with a rose tinted emotion. SA backs look exciting and powerful.

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Post by BamBam Tue 13 Oct - 10:20

Risca Rev wrote:
BamBam wrote:
BamBam wrote:With heart and soul Bilt Hug

Believe it or not, I'm not just doing it to wind up the Welsh either, I've always liked the Boks

I don't know why it would wind the Welsh up anyway? You're free to support whoever you like now your team is out of the World Cup.

I agree, but some seem to think supporting the opposition is "latching on to whoever is facing the Welsh"

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 13 Oct - 10:21

RubyGuby wrote:Biltong - Since when have the English media known anything about rugby!!! What else were you expecting from a media who to a tee had England beating Aus across the board with little question of the possible alternative. They seem to want to ignore facts and write with a rose tinted emotion.

I remember reading Sir Clive's advice to the England team ahead of that match: 'always get the next score' (?) and 'target five tries' (!).

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Post by fa0019 Tue 13 Oct - 10:21

The last thing you want is Habana with a spring in his step. He's looked good in his last few games.... really has the bit between his teeth at the moment.

Kriel at 13 is the obvious defensive flaw.

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Post by fa0019 Tue 13 Oct - 10:23

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
RubyGuby wrote:Biltong - Since when have the English media known anything about rugby!!! What else were you expecting from a media who to a tee had England beating Aus across the board with little question of the possible alternative. They seem to want to ignore facts and write with a rose tinted emotion.

I remember reading Sir Clive's advice to the England team ahead of that match: 'always get the next score' (?) and 'target five tries' (!).

To be fair to the media.

From a ranking, home advantage and previous heads to heads... England were favourites. Cheika has done some wonders to be fair. Adding steel to the aussie pack has been a masterstroke.

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Post by thebandwagonsociety Tue 13 Oct - 10:25

I feel this game and the Irish match will be competitive but have a sneaking suspicion it could be an all rugby championship semi-finals line up.

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Post by RubyGuby Tue 13 Oct - 10:28

thebandwagonsociety wrote:I feel this game and the Irish match will be competitive but have a sneaking suspicion it could be an all rugby championship semi-finals line up.

I'm with you on that - good call

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Post by fa0019 Tue 13 Oct - 10:30

thebandwagonsociety wrote:I feel this game and the Irish match will be competitive but have a sneaking suspicion it could be an all rugby championship semi-finals line up.

I just feel this Welsh side is one game too far for them. Had they been refreshed and had a full compliment of players they could have had a good crack at SA. However they've had 3 wars in their pools already, have lost about 1/2 their first team and bench and are going up against a well rested (last played on Thursday), all of a sudden in-form and near all first choice players available.

Wouldn't be surprised if the boks run away with it as Wales run out of gas from 50-60 mins.

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 13 Oct - 10:35

Notch wrote:
Biltong wrote:You just have to love the media, this from the Guardian

"So, now Wales must face the Springboks who have recovered from being banished to the room of shame under the stairs, sent there by Japan. South Africa have recovered on a diet of beef and more beef. Smash and keep on smashing. Running rugby – not for the Bokke. They have reverted to enraged-rhino rugby.

If Wales can play a game of continuity, if they can slip passes out of the contact – or even before it – they can confuse the beast. If they fall into its grip they are doomed. Wales have suffered at the hands of the Australian scrum; now they must avoid the crush of the mauling, grappling heavyweights. It is time to reach for the box of tricks and improvisation."

I don't have the stats to hand but I'm willing to bet that South Africa have offloaded out of contact a lot more than Wales so far...

Is that unfair though. either an unfair description of how SA have played or what Wales need to do to win?

After all against Samoa SA carried the ball 148 times - with 10 offloads, 109 attacking rucks and 13 attacking mauls.

Against Scotland they carried 131 times with 4 offloads, 103 attacking rucks and 4 attacking mauls.


Soutrh Africa have bounced back well from that opening defeat - by playing South African rugby. Seems sensible to me, and why anyone is offended by that being pointed out leaves me puzzled.

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Post by Biltong Tue 13 Oct - 10:40

Notch wrote:
Biltong wrote:You just have to love the media, this from the Guardian

"So, now Wales must face the Springboks who have recovered from being banished to the room of shame under the stairs, sent there by Japan. South Africa have recovered on a diet of beef and more beef. Smash and keep on smashing. Running rugby – not for the Bokke. They have reverted to enraged-rhino rugby.

If Wales can play a game of continuity, if they can slip passes out of the contact – or even before it – they can confuse the beast. If they fall into its grip they are doomed. Wales have suffered at the hands of the Australian scrum; now they must avoid the crush of the mauling, grappling heavyweights. It is time to reach for the box of tricks and improvisation."

I don't have the stats to hand but I'm willing to bet that South Africa have offloaded out of contact a lot more than Wales so far...

Yep, of the remaining teams only Argentina and New Zealand made more offloads.
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Post by RubyGuby Tue 13 Oct - 10:42

I think the offence is that there is an assumption that SA are all bash and crash which is very far from the truth

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Post by Biltong Tue 13 Oct - 10:45

LondonTiger wrote:
Notch wrote:
Biltong wrote:You just have to love the media, this from the Guardian

"So, now Wales must face the Springboks who have recovered from being banished to the room of shame under the stairs, sent there by Japan. South Africa have recovered on a diet of beef and more beef. Smash and keep on smashing. Running rugby – not for the Bokke. They have reverted to enraged-rhino rugby.

If Wales can play a game of continuity, if they can slip passes out of the contact – or even before it – they can confuse the beast. If they fall into its grip they are doomed. Wales have suffered at the hands of the Australian scrum; now they must avoid the crush of the mauling, grappling heavyweights. It is time to reach for the box of tricks and improvisation."

I don't have the stats to hand but I'm willing to bet that South Africa have offloaded out of contact a lot more than Wales so far...

Is that unfair though. either an unfair description of how SA have played or what Wales need to do to win?

After all against Samoa SA carried the ball 148 times - with 10 offloads, 109 attacking rucks and 13 attacking mauls.

Against Scotland they carried 131 times with 4 offloads, 103 attacking rucks and 4 attacking mauls.


Soutrh Africa have bounced back well from that opening defeat - by playing South African rugby. Seems sensible to me, and why anyone is offended by that being pointed out leaves me puzzled.

LT, who is offended?

I find it entertaining to see the usual perceptions still being the be all and end all of journalism. Wink
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Post by fa0019 Tue 13 Oct - 10:47

there is a huge diff between SH and NH offloading though.

In the SH its been part of the game for 20 years, NZ started it and the rest have had to follow. Its inbedded in club rugby. Kids do it to a point its muscle memory.

In the NH it often looks forced. Something they say in national squads.... right, this is how NZ play so listen up.

Half the time you see a NH offload in the tackle you think he will get turned over. In the NH its a winter game. Its wet, cold and 50/50 offloads get dropped. You do it less. In the SH yes its a winter game too but an SA winter ain't exactly the same as a British one. its not like the SH is ahead of the curve, its that their climate suits faster paced setups.


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Post by SecretFly Tue 13 Oct - 10:49

With Obama seeking his third term in off.................... I mean with Habana seeking his 365th World Cup try (+swandive) I think the South Africans will be doing more than bang, bang, bang.

There'll be some of that but they found some mojo and they're in the mood to see how far it takes them.

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Post by fa0019 Tue 13 Oct - 10:51

To think Habana scored only something like 10 tries in 39 matches for PDV.

Just imagine what he would have done had he not had that career lull.

White = 30 in 35 (86%)
PDV = 8 in 39    (21%)
Meyer = 24 in 40 (60%)

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Post by RubyGuby Tue 13 Oct - 10:56

fa0019 wrote:To think Habana scored only something like 10 tries in 39 matches for PDV.

Just imagine what he would have done had he not had that career lull.)

Hey MAYBE you've hit something there, maybe, just maybe Cuthbert is having a "Career Lull" - I hadn't thought of that, it happens to the best!! Ok Alex, Lull over please time to wake up out of that Lull

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Post by SecretFly Tue 13 Oct - 10:56

The last 6N had quite a lot of offloading and not only by the usual suspects (Wales).  England, France, and Scotland all loved to pop the ball away before contact. Just remember that famous Saturday.

Ireland used about three of them through their five games and still won. Wink

Yes - we scream at them!  "More offloads, you asswholes!!!!!  Stop killing yourselves going fully into smash'n'contact."  
But the point remains.  The closer the final gets - the less tries - the tighter games become in the forwards zone - the less offloads.

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Post by Biltong Tue 13 Oct - 10:57

South Africa will always bang, bang, it is the fundamental facet necessary to gain front foot ball, get across the gainline and build momentum.

But they are not unique in doing that.

Every team uses bang, bang, they may or may not be more successful though.

It is important to note however that of the 140 tries they scored under Meyer, 43 scored by forwards, 97 scored by backs
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Post by fa0019 Tue 13 Oct - 10:58

SecretFly wrote:The last 6N had quite a lot of offloading and not only by the usual suspects (Wales).  England, France, and Scotland all loved to pop the ball away before contact.  Just remember that famous Saturday.

Ireland used about three of them through their five games and still won. Wink

Yes - we scream at them!  "More offloads, you asswholes!!!!!  Stop killing yourselves going fully into smash'n'contact."  
But the point remains.  The closer the final gets - the less tries - the tighter games become in the forwards zone - the less offloads.

I remember seeing Dan Cole attempt one once... that was a mistake. Like watching a elephant on a balance beam.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 13 Oct - 10:59

RubyGuby wrote:
fa0019 wrote:To think Habana scored only something like 10 tries in 39 matches for PDV.

Just imagine what he would have done had he not had that career lull.)

Hey MAYBE you've hit something there, maybe, just maybe Cuthbert is having a "Career Lull" - I hadn't thought of that, it happens to the best!! Ok Alex, Lull over please time to wake up out of that Lull

thumbsup

Laugh

Could be Gatland's biggest ploy of them all. Old Alex told to hold off until just now. Lulling the foreigners AND natives into a false sense of his demise.

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Post by fa0019 Tue 13 Oct - 11:01

RubyGuby wrote:
fa0019 wrote:To think Habana scored only something like 10 tries in 39 matches for PDV.

Just imagine what he would have done had he not had that career lull.)

Hey MAYBE you've hit something there, maybe, just maybe Cuthbert is having a "Career Lull" - I hadn't thought of that, it happens to the best!! Ok Alex, Lull over please time to wake up out of that Lull

thumbsup

I don't understand why Wales don't rate him. He's clumsy in defence... give him a break he's 2m tall and on the wing. Its like watching a giraffe run in the savanna. Had a good record but when have Wales set him up recently?

Got to use your tools correctly. If I had him with space in the 22 I'd be very happy. Just needs to be shored up a little.

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 13 Oct - 11:03

Biltong wrote:South Africa will always bang, bang, it is the fundamental facet necessary to gain front foot ball, get across the gainline and build momentum.

But they are not unique in doing that.

Every team uses bang, bang, they may or may not be more successful though.

It is important to note however that of the 140 tries they scored under Meyer, 43 scored by forwards, 97 scored by backs

So you actually agree with the Guardian that their rugby is mainly bosh? Of course they offload, but unlike Japan who are forced to SA mdo not seek to avoid contact at all costs.

Wales have to do something different to beat SA - as they try and play a Saffer style game, but are not as proficient at it. They have to try and offload a hell of a lot more than they have as in a physical battle they will lose.

But I must be wrong as I am saying the same as the Guardian.

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Post by fa0019 Tue 13 Oct - 11:07

The boks are still quite old (8 over 30). Still quite heavy... its not about offloads necessarily but run them all over the park. Anscombes kicking game needs to be spot on. Maybe even play hook in the centres so that Wales have Biggar, Anscombe and Hook as kickers.

Thats still how I'd play the boks.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 13 Oct - 11:11

fa0019 wrote:

I don't understand why Wales don't rate him. He's clumsy in defence... give him a break he's 2m tall and on the wing. Its like watching a giraffe run in the savanna. Had a good record but when have Wales set him up recently?

Got to use your tools correctly. If I had him with space in the 22 I'd be very happy. Just needs to be shored up a little.

Need to be shored up with two crutches under each arm...

No seriously, yes, he's dangerous in theory (perhaps practice in game/games to come.)  He's still a player that can get in there and could thrive more perhaps under a different gameplan.  But I think Gatland has hounded him into the ground on the old fitness/conditioning stuff and the spring has left his bunny.  
Wings need to feel weightless, to have that sense of gazelle still in their mentality but I think Gatland has suppressed that with his bang, bang, bang training.

All in all, if this chat keeps up, Alex is going to have a classic day and three tries under his belt Cool

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Post by Fanster Tue 13 Oct - 11:17

Biltong wrote:
BamBam wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Fanster wrote:I'm not sure a fully fit Wales 22 would fear SA too much, their resuts over the last 12 months are incredible by their standards, their small unit play has been poor in this RWC, and they have very little threat outside of 12.

However with a potential backline Wales may put out it's asking way too much of the pack, who have been superb thus far, to do enough of a job for Wales to win.

What will be interesting is how SA will play, if they stick with the way theyve reverted to type I think it'll play into Wales hands, who have never really struggled with the physical approach, the game will be won in the wider channels, and so Habana, De Allande and Le Roux have to show some form.

Fanster, "revert to type" has become a bit of a cliche to be honest, I am not even sure what people mean by that anymore to be truthfull.

However to answer your question, the pack will be physical, they will stampede the Welsh like a herd of Rhinos, Fourie du Preez will be the general in controlling the territory and decide when to go deep, Pollard isn't much of a game controller, I see him more as an extra 12 who can kick to posts. The difference in this South African backline (this is where reverting to type confuses me) with Pollard, De Allende and Kriel all prone to go for the gap rather than the crash ball, the South African backline attack has evolved, no longer are they as predictable as in the past.

Add Willie le Roux to the backline and he creates more space, delays passes and offloads, and puts support runners into space. Bot JP Pietersen and Habana looks hungry again, the 9 tries scored by them, their workrate and fitness has all improved.

You need to look at the big game changers for SA, and there are quite a number of them, all reaching form again.

Vermeulen is getting back to his best, Burger as link man looks to offload more and more, Pollard knows how to break a line, De Allende and Kriel may only be playing their 6th or 7th match together but their understanding of each other in defence and attack is improving.

Lood de Jager has been immense in this world cup.

If South Africa brings their A game, I do not see how Wales will match them, insofar as Wales Matching South Africa physically, refer to the November test in 2013 when South Africa just demolished them in the physical battle.

Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo

BamBam, are you seriously supporting the Boks? Very Happy

It's become a cliche through usage alone, it doesn't have any less truth, SA have been trying to play a far ore open game, through a Pollard, LeRoux Kriel type game that uses DeAllende as a Roberts type focus point, then Habana and JP as strike runners.

The problem with that is that it has proved easy to counter, the forwards have been too easily nullified in the last 12 months by Wales, Ireland, Argentina, NZ, Australia and Japan.

If you need to go back over 2 years to counter my argument that SA have been poor for 12 months do you not think that highlights my point?

Pollard is struggling, De Allende hasn't been the wrecking ball he was last year, Kriel has too many weaknesses and Le Roux and the wings are pretty much spending games watching. Lets be a bit honest with ourselves, SA have played noone yet, the toughest challenge being the 6N wooden spooners.

I generally pay little attention to anyone who uses phrases like 'SA are going to...' or 'we are all reaching form again' after a group that included noone of note, and still a loss to an average Japan team occured.

I agree in the fact that this WAles team will probably highlight the lack in depth in the country, and with a makeshift backline including some 3rd/4th choice players struggle to hold the SA team out, and I don't think they have enough to put enough points on them, but still you have to feel lucky as a bok fan that you have had to play nobody, and a hugely depleted team and made a semi final, where in reality NZ will be a comfortable bet for a win.

Obviously I hope I, and you are wrong, and WAles pack dominates enough for Biggar to tick the boxes and qualify.

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Post by fa0019 Tue 13 Oct - 11:32

The boks aren't lucky.

They got their tier 1 seeding by their rankings... i.e. by being better than teams like England, Ireland, Wales, Scotland and being equal (at the time to NZ, AUS and France). Thereby missing top teams until the QFs at the very least.

NH teams have to realise that building for the world cup is fine but without tier 1 seeding its literally an everest like ascent to the top.. and that is calculated halfway through a world cup cycle.

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Post by BamBam Tue 13 Oct - 11:34

I wouldn't have said De Allende was much of a wrecking ball at all, he's not particularly big for a centre but has great footwork and seems to make yards regularly!

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Post by bedfordwelsh Tue 13 Oct - 11:34

The depth issue is always being talked about when it comes to Wales but its more the exposure at this level rather than the players not being there.

Problem being though is when do we expose the up an coming youngsters to International rugby?  

Gatland has never been afraid to pick youngsters and has a very good record of bringing players though under his tenure but we have struggled at times when he has mixed his team up.

Do you experiment in the World Cup, 6 Nations, Summer Tours or the Autumn games?  For me the first 2 are completely out of the question unless like we have had to now due to injuries.

Summer tours, possibly but that is when the SH sides are normally in the peak of their season and young lads could be on the end of a real hammering and that may shatter the confidence of some.

Autumn games for me is when I would experiment the most but again every team wants to win and if Gatland picked a very young side and we lost then he would come in for loads of crap from fans and media alike.


Last edited by bedfordwelsh on Tue 13 Oct - 11:37; edited 1 time in total
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Post by RubyGuby Tue 13 Oct - 11:35

Teams aside Discipline will be key here with perhaps SA needing to reel in some of their "hot heads" and those that live on the line.

thumbsup

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Post by Biltong Tue 13 Oct - 11:38

LondonTiger wrote:
Biltong wrote:South Africa will always bang, bang, it is the fundamental facet necessary to gain front foot ball, get across the gainline and build momentum.

But they are not unique in doing that.

Every team uses bang, bang, they may or may not be more successful though.

It is important to note however that of the 140 tries they scored under Meyer, 43 scored by forwards, 97 scored by backs

So you actually agree with the Guardian that their rugby is mainly bosh? Of course they offload, but unlike Japan who are forced to SA mdo not seek to avoid contact at all costs.

Wales have to do something different to beat SA - as they try and play a Saffer style game, but are not as proficient at it. They have to try and offload a hell of a lot more than they have as in a physical battle they will lose.

But I must be wrong as I am saying the same as the Guardian.

No I actually don't agree with the Guardian, what I said is every team bashes to set up phase play and momentum.

Just to enlighten you to SA player stats so you have a wider view than what the guardian said.

Most clean breaks by South African players in this world cup.

Bryan Habana 8
Jesse Kriel 6
Willie Le Roux 5
Damian De Allende 4
Handre Pollard 3
JP Pietersen 3
Duane Vermeulen 3
Jean De Villiers 2
Adriaan Strauss 1
Zane Kirchner 1
Lodewyk De Jager 1
Schalk Burger 1
Bismarck Du Plessis 1
Francois Louw 1
Victor Matfield 1
Schalk Brits 1
Eben Etzebeth 1
Lwazi Mvovo 1

Most carries over the gainline

Schalk Burger 22
Lodewyk De Jager 21
Eben Etzebeth 18
Damian De Allende 15
Duane Vermeulen 15
Francois Louw 14
Bryan Habana 14
Jesse Kriel 13
Adriaan Strauss 12
Bismarck Du Plessis 12
Tendai Mtawarira 11
Willem Alberts 11
Willie Le Roux 9
Fourie Du Preez 9
Handre Pollard 8
Jean De Villiers 7
Frans Malherbe 6
Victor Matfield 6
Jannie Du Plessis 5
JP Pietersen 5


Looks pretty balanced to me, eh?
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Post by fa0019 Tue 13 Oct - 11:40

BamBam wrote:I wouldn't have said De Allende was much of a wrecking ball at all, he's not particularly big for a centre but has great footwork and seems to make yards regularly!

You mean 6'2 and 16st?

yeah I was thinking the same thing... mighty mouse!

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Post by Biltong Tue 13 Oct - 11:51

fanster wrote:
It's become a cliche through usage alone, it doesn't have any less truth, SA have been trying to play a far ore open game, through a Pollard, LeRoux Kriel type game that uses DeAllende as a Roberts type focus point, then Habana and JP as strike runners.

The problem with that is that it has proved easy to counter, the forwards have been too easily nullified in the last 12 months by Wales, Ireland, Argentina, NZ, Australia and Japan.

If you need to go back over 2 years to counter my argument that SA have been poor for 12 months do you not think that highlights my point?

Pollard is struggling, De Allende hasn't been the wrecking ball he was last year, Kriel has too many weaknesses and Le Roux and the wings are pretty much spending games watching. Lets be a bit honest with ourselves, SA have played noone yet, the toughest challenge being the 6N wooden spooners.

I generally pay little attention to anyone who uses phrases like 'SA are going to...' or 'we are all reaching form again' after a group that included noone of note, and still a loss to an average Japan team occured.

I agree in the fact that this WAles team will probably highlight the lack in depth in the country, and with a makeshift backline including some 3rd/4th choice players struggle to hold the SA team out, and I don't think they have enough to put enough points on them, but still you have to feel lucky as a bok fan that you have had to play nobody, and a hugely depleted team and made a semi final, where in reality NZ will be a comfortable bet for a win.

Obviously I hope I, and you are wrong, and WAles pack dominates enough for Biggar to tick the boxes and qualify.

Pollard is not struggling, Pollard is not a general yet in the way Sexton or Carter is. He attacks flat and passes, he rarely kicks out of hand. That is what du Preez is there for, he controls the match, South Africa plays off nine, you should know that if you want to start analysing them.

De Allende is not a crashball runner, when needed he will take the ball into contact, but he runs at space.

Kriel is young, he hasn't even played a dozen tests, he has great acceleration and runs through gaps which De Allende and le Roux is there to provide him.

HE is currently suspect in defence as the midfield combination is only beginning to settle, so positionally he is not confident yet, playing with de Villiers who kept tacking the man already covered by Burger against Japan caused him to cover bigger areas than was needed.

Willie just came back from injury, in fact, he didn't play the first matches due to his ankle not being healed yet, this will be his fourth match since his injury.

The last two years doesn't matter right now. The Boks went into the RC unfit, Meyer worked their bodies into the ground to get them fit.

What happened in the last year has no bearing on this match, there is something like 5 players in this starting team that played last November against Wales.

Hold on the the Japan loss, because it blinds your assessment.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 13 Oct - 12:16

Biltong wrote:Pollard is not struggling, Pollard is not a general yet in the way Sexton or Carter is. He attacks flat and passes, he rarely kicks out of hand. That is what du Preez is there for, he controls the match, South Africa plays off nine, you should know that if you want to start analysing them.

Ouch! Laugh

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Post by BamBam Tue 13 Oct - 12:22

fa0019 wrote:
BamBam wrote:I wouldn't have said De Allende was much of a wrecking ball at all, he's not particularly big for a centre but has great footwork and seems to make yards regularly!

You mean 6'2 and 16st?

yeah I was thinking the same thing... mighty mouse!

Compared to other international wrecking ball centres ...

Roberts - 6'4, 110kg
Nonu - 6'0, 107kg
Tuilagi - 6'1 112kg
SBW - 6'4 108kg

Its not a huge difference, he's not small but I think I disagree more that he's a wrecking ball than him being small. Just seems a bit more of a stepper than a crash ball artist


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Post by RubyGuby Tue 13 Oct - 12:23

Du Preez and Gareth Davies should be a feisty little battle there

thumbsup

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Post by Biltong Tue 13 Oct - 12:25

Du Preez is old, him and Ewards remind me of the old bull and young bull standing on the hill admiring the beautiful cows.

The young bull says "lets charge down and grab ourselves a cow or two"

The old bull clamly says " no, we stroll down, open the gate and have all of them"
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Post by RubyGuby Tue 13 Oct - 12:27

If Edwards was playing we'd be favourites


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Post by wrfc1980 Tue 13 Oct - 12:27

Can't see Wales doing much this game. Despiate making it into the quarter finals they have been ordinary at best. They were sloppy against Uruguay, Fiji more than competed witht them and pushed them all the way, they showed no ability to score a try against the Aussies and were outplayed for 60m minutes against England in a game that England botched rather than Wales won.

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Post by Biltong Tue 13 Oct - 12:28

Sorry man, Davies Doh
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Post by Fanster Tue 13 Oct - 12:30

fa0019 wrote:The boks aren't lucky.

They got their tier 1 seeding by their rankings... i.e. by being better than teams like England, Ireland, Wales, Scotland and being equal (at the time to NZ, AUS and France). Thereby missing top teams until the QFs at the very least.

NH teams have to realise that building for the world cup is fine but without tier 1 seeding its literally an everest like ascent to the top.. and that is calculated halfway through a world cup cycle.

You mean like Australia, they deserved their group because they didn't work hard enough... or maybe there was a draw?

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 13 Oct - 12:31

RubyGuby wrote:Du Preez and Gareth Davies should be a feisty little battle there

thumbsup

Definitely. I was screaming for Gareth Davies to get his chance at test level four blydi years ago. I'm glad he's now in the team and getting the recognition he deserves.

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 13 Oct - 12:32

wrfc1980 wrote:Can't see Wales doing much this game. Despiate making it into the quarter finals they have been ordinary at best. They were sloppy against Uruguay, Fiji more than competed witht them and pushed them all the way, they showed no ability to score a try against the Aussies and were outplayed for 60m minutes against England in a game that England botched rather than Wales won.

Look who's back after his 'WiFi went down' lads Laugh.

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Post by Steffan Tue 13 Oct - 12:36

mikey_dragon wrote:
wrfc1980 wrote:Can't see Wales doing much this game. Despiate making it into the quarter finals they have been ordinary at best. They were sloppy against Uruguay, Fiji more than competed witht them and pushed them all the way, they showed no ability to score a try against the Aussies and were outplayed for 60m minutes against England in a game that England botched rather than Wales won.

Look who's back after his 'WiFi went down' lads Laugh.
You should be happy...a member who posts more crap than you...don't knock it

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Post by Fanster Tue 13 Oct - 12:45

Biltong wrote:
fanster wrote:
It's become a cliche through usage alone, it doesn't have any less truth, SA have been trying to play a far ore open game, through a Pollard, LeRoux Kriel type game that uses DeAllende as a Roberts type focus point, then Habana and JP as strike runners.

The problem with that is that it has proved easy to counter, the forwards have been too easily nullified in the last 12 months by Wales, Ireland, Argentina, NZ, Australia and Japan.

If you need to go back over 2 years to counter my argument that SA have been poor for 12 months do you not think that highlights my point?

Pollard is struggling, De Allende hasn't been the wrecking ball he was last year, Kriel has too many weaknesses and Le Roux and the wings are pretty much spending games watching. Lets be a bit honest with ourselves, SA have played noone yet, the toughest challenge being the 6N wooden spooners.

I generally pay little attention to anyone who uses phrases like 'SA are going to...' or 'we are all reaching form again' after a group that included noone of note, and still a loss to an average Japan team occured.

I agree in the fact that this WAles team will probably highlight the lack in depth in the country, and with a makeshift backline including some 3rd/4th choice players struggle to hold the SA team out, and I don't think they have enough to put enough points on them, but still you have to feel lucky as a bok fan that you have had to play nobody, and a hugely depleted team and made a semi final, where in reality NZ will be a comfortable bet for a win.

Obviously I hope I, and you are wrong, and WAles pack dominates enough for Biggar to tick the boxes and qualify.

Pollard is not struggling, Pollard is not a general yet in the way Sexton or Carter is. He attacks flat and passes, he rarely kicks out of hand. That is what du Preez is there for, he controls the match, South Africa plays off nine, you should know that if you want to start analysing them.

De Allende is not a crashball runner, when needed he will take the ball into contact, but he runs at space.

Kriel is young, he hasn't even played a dozen tests, he has great acceleration and runs through gaps which De Allende and le Roux is there to provide him.

HE is currently suspect in defence as the midfield combination is only beginning to settle, so positionally he is not confident yet, playing with de Villiers who kept tacking the man already covered by Burger against Japan caused him to cover bigger areas than was needed.

Willie just came back from injury, in fact, he didn't play the first matches due to his ankle not being healed yet, this will be his fourth match since his injury.

The last two years doesn't matter right now. The Boks went into the RC unfit, Meyer worked their bodies into the ground to get them fit.

What happened in the last year has no bearing on this match, there is something like 5 players in this starting team that played last November against Wales.

Hold on the the Japan loss, because it blinds your assessment.


No offence but you truly sound like your trying to convince yourself...

'Pollard is not struggling' - However they have taken generalship, and leadership roles away from him, he limits options from 10, and heaps pressure on Du Preez (In his defence he is playing superbly since comeback). - This is not discounting my argument, its excusing poor 10 play.

'De Allende is not a crash ball runner' - every crash ball runner hits space, and gaps, De Allende is young and excitable, so has a tendancy to go looking for gaps, at the detriment of backline play sometimes. When I called De Allende a focus point, it doesn't mean he merely crashes, as Roberts doesn't merely crash, they threaten, command defences to keep them under wraps, then try to outwit the D.

'Kriel is young' Did I say he was old? He is just defencively weak, and makes too many mistakes at this level, if you didn't want mistakes select someone else, being young is no excuse for not being up to standard, as I'm sure Tyler Morgan, Cory Allen, Matthew Morgan have, or will all find out.

And your right, the midfield partnership is just beggining to settle, it is individually pretty good, but not a gret unit, it's a RWC quarter final, if theyre not settled yet theyre not good enough.

I never said Le Roux wasn't injured, again your making another excuse for poor performances, you either judge the players on what they have produced over 2 weeks or so, and what they are likely to produce saturday, or you just discount them as world class despite the evidence.

I also agree the last 2 years matters nothing, so I'm still unsure why you brought up 2013, what does matter is what has happened within the last 12 months, the trends of styles of play, results, and especially what has happened in the tournament!

If one loss blinds an assesment then Wales won their group, because the Australia game blinds everyones assesments, to discount the loss, and it's effects on player and coaching team mindset is foolish, SA bounced back with decent performances against some weak teams, thats all you can ask of them right now, yet there are still question marks over them, how they play and whats going on behind closed doors (I bet you think all is rosy as they sorted things out in a meeting).

I have never said SA are a bad team, I said they are bad by their standards, which you have to agree with, I never said Wales would win, Wales are big underdogs due to injuries, but SA will be more nervous come Saturday than Wales will be, pressures off for Wales, qualified out of the group of death with stupid injury record, going into a RWC quarter final against a very powerfull team, with 3rd/4th choice players on the park...

SA lose and heads roll, it's been a disaster of England 2011 proportions, and a decent number of players retire under a question mark cloud.

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Post by Guest Tue 13 Oct - 12:49

wrfc1980 wrote:Can't see Wales doing much this game. Despiate making it into the quarter finals they have been ordinary at best. They were sloppy against Uruguay, Fiji more than competed witht them and pushed them all the way, they showed no ability to score a try against the Aussies and were outplayed for 60m minutes against England in a game that England botched rather than Wales won.

I actually agree with this. We've not played a good game yet. Stuttered against Uruguay; England gave too many penalties which kept us in the game and we had perhaps a good last 10 mins but created very little; struggled v Fiji after the first 15 mins and just hung on for dear life; created very little v Aus and couldn't punish 2 man advantage, although we did fairly well to contain them. I'm hoping we're due 1 good game this tournament so hope it will be against the Boks! Big ask though.

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Post by Biltong Tue 13 Oct - 12:49

Fanster wrote:
Biltong wrote:
fanster wrote:
It's become a cliche through usage alone, it doesn't have any less truth, SA have been trying to play a far ore open game, through a Pollard, LeRoux Kriel type game that uses DeAllende as a Roberts type focus point, then Habana and JP as strike runners.

The problem with that is that it has proved easy to counter, the forwards have been too easily nullified in the last 12 months by Wales, Ireland, Argentina, NZ, Australia and Japan.

If you need to go back over 2 years to counter my argument that SA have been poor for 12 months do you not think that highlights my point?

Pollard is struggling, De Allende hasn't been the wrecking ball he was last year, Kriel has too many weaknesses and Le Roux and the wings are pretty much spending games watching. Lets be a bit honest with ourselves, SA have played noone yet, the toughest challenge being the 6N wooden spooners.

I generally pay little attention to anyone who uses phrases like 'SA are going to...' or 'we are all reaching form again' after a group that included noone of note, and still a loss to an average Japan team occured.

I agree in the fact that this WAles team will probably highlight the lack in depth in the country, and with a makeshift backline including some 3rd/4th choice players struggle to hold the SA team out, and I don't think they have enough to put enough points on them, but still you have to feel lucky as a bok fan that you have had to play nobody, and a hugely depleted team and made a semi final, where in reality NZ will be a comfortable bet for a win.

Obviously I hope I, and you are wrong, and WAles pack dominates enough for Biggar to tick the boxes and qualify.

Pollard is not struggling, Pollard is not a general yet in the way Sexton or Carter is. He attacks flat and passes, he rarely kicks out of hand. That is what du Preez is there for, he controls the match, South Africa plays off nine, you should know that if you want to start analysing them.

De Allende is not a crashball runner, when needed he will take the ball into contact, but he runs at space.

Kriel is young, he hasn't even played a dozen tests, he has great acceleration and runs through gaps which De Allende and le Roux is there to provide him.

HE is currently suspect in defence as the midfield combination is only beginning to settle, so positionally he is not confident yet, playing with de Villiers who kept tacking the man already covered by Burger against Japan caused him to cover bigger areas than was needed.

Willie just came back from injury, in fact, he didn't play the first matches due to his ankle not being healed yet, this will be his fourth match since his injury.

The last two years doesn't matter right now. The Boks went into the RC unfit, Meyer worked their bodies into the ground to get them fit.

What happened in the last year has no bearing on this match, there is something like 5 players in this starting team that played last November against Wales.

Hold on the the Japan loss, because it blinds your assessment.


No offence but you truly sound like your trying to convince yourself...

'Pollard is not struggling' - However they have taken generalship, and leadership roles away from him, he limits options from 10, and heaps pressure on Du Preez (In his defence he is playing superbly since comeback). - This is not discounting my argument, its excusing poor 10 play.

'De Allende is not a crash ball runner' - every crash ball runner hits space, and gaps, De Allende is young and excitable, so has a tendancy to go looking for gaps, at the detriment of backline play sometimes. When I called De Allende a focus point, it doesn't mean he merely crashes, as Roberts doesn't merely crash, they threaten, command defences to keep them under wraps, then try to outwit the D.

'Kriel is young' Did I say he was old? He is just defencively weak, and makes too many mistakes at this level, if you didn't want mistakes select someone else, being young is no excuse for not being up to standard, as I'm sure Tyler Morgan, Cory Allen, Matthew Morgan have, or will all find out.

And your right, the midfield partnership is just beggining to settle, it is individually pretty good, but not a gret unit, it's a RWC quarter final, if theyre not settled yet theyre not good enough.

I never said Le Roux wasn't injured, again your making another excuse for poor performances, you either judge the players on what they have produced over 2 weeks or so, and what they are likely to produce saturday, or you just discount them as world class despite the evidence.

I also agree the last 2 years matters nothing, so I'm still unsure why you brought up 2013, what does matter is what has happened within the last 12 months, the trends of styles of play, results, and especially what has happened in the tournament!

If one loss blinds an assesment then Wales won their group, because the Australia game blinds everyones assesments, to discount the loss, and it's effects on player and coaching team mindset is foolish, SA bounced back with decent performances against some weak teams, thats all you can ask of them right now, yet there are still question marks over them, how they play and whats going on behind closed doors (I bet you think all is rosy as they sorted things out in a meeting).

I have never said SA are a bad team, I said they are bad by their standards, which you have to agree with, I never said Wales would win, Wales are big underdogs due to injuries, but SA will be more nervous come Saturday than Wales will be, pressures off for Wales, qualified out of the group of death with stupid injury record, going into a RWC quarter final against a very powerfull team, with 3rd/4th choice players on the park...

SA lose and heads roll, it's been a disaster of England 2011 proportions, and a decent number of players retire under a question mark cloud.

No mate, I am not trying to convince myself of anything, I am providing you with information you chose to negate.

But, believe what you will
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Post by Fanster Tue 13 Oct - 12:49

wrfc1980 wrote:Can't see Wales doing much this game. Despiate making it into the quarter finals they have been ordinary at best. They were sloppy against Uruguay, Fiji more than competed witht them and pushed them all the way, they showed no ability to score a try against the Aussies and were outplayed for 60m minutes against England in a game that England botched rather than Wales won.

That is truly staggering, considering they were held up over the line 3 times, a try was dissalowed for a knock on, and they were a phase or 2 away from scoring a few times. To claim that was Wales inability for not looking threatening, and not applaud what was an astounding effort and easily best defencive effort of the tournament if not of the last few years by Australia...

Wow, just wow!

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QF1: South Africa v Wales, 17 October - Page 4 Empty Re: QF1: South Africa v Wales, 17 October

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