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QF4: Australia v Scotland, 18 October

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QF4: Australia v Scotland, 18 October - Page 4 Empty QF4: Australia v Scotland, 18 October

Post by George Carlin Sun 11 Oct 2015, 7:26 am

First topic message reminder :

QF4: Australia v Scotland, 18 October - Page 4 Wallab10     QF4: Australia v Scotland, 18 October - Page 4 Scot_f10 
AUSTRALIA v SCOTLAND

18 October 2015
16:00 BST (UTC+01)
Twickenham, London

Live on telly

Ref: Craig Joubert (South Africa)
ARs: Glen Jackson (New Zealand) and Pascal Gauzere (France)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

A. Head to Head

28 Played 28
19 Won 9
0 Drawn 0
9 Lost 19
671 Points 330

B. Recent Form

23 November 2013
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
15 – 21 to Australia

5 June 2012
Hunter Stadium, Newcastle
6 – 9 to Scotland

21 November 2009
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
9 – 8 to Scotland

25 November 2006
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
15 – 44 to Australia

20 November 2004
Hampden Park, Glasgow
17 – 31 to Australia

C. TEAMS:
AUSTRALIA
QF4: Australia v Scotland, 18 October - Page 4 Geoffr10
15 Kurtley Beale; 14 Adam Ashley-Cooper, 13 Tevita Kuridrani, 12 Matt Giteau, 11 Drew Mitchell; 10 Bernard Foley, 9 Will Genia;

1 Scott Sio, 2Stephen Moore, 3 Sekope Kepu, 4 Kane Douglas, 5 Rob Simmons, 6 Scott Fardy, 7 Michael Hooper, 8 Ben McCalman.

Substitutes: 16 Tatafu Polota-Nau, 17 James Slipper, 18 Greg Holmes, 19 Dean Mumm, 20 Sean McMahon, 21 Nick Phipps, 22 Matt Toomua, 23 Quade Cooper.

SCOTLAND
QF4: Australia v Scotland, 18 October - Page 4 Tucker10
15 Stuart Hogg; 14 Sean Maitland, 13 Mark Bennett, 12 Peter Horne 11 Tommy Seymour; 10 Finn Russell,  9 Greig Laidlaw;

1 Alasdair Dickinson, 2 Ross Ford, 3 Willem Nel, 4 Jonny Gray, 5 Richie Gray, 6 Blair Cowan, 7 John Hardie, 8 David Denton. 


Substitutes: 
16 Fraser Brown, 17 Gordon Reid, 18 Jon Welsh, 19 Tim Swinson, 20 Josh Strauss, 21 Henry Pyrgos, 22 Richie Vernon, 23 Sean Lamont.


Last edited by George Carlin on Sun 18 Oct 2015, 3:05 pm; edited 6 times in total
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QF4: Australia v Scotland, 18 October - Page 4 Empty Re: QF4: Australia v Scotland, 18 October

Post by jimbopip Tue 13 Oct 2015, 5:26 pm

Laugh Laugh Laugh Erm Erm

The man is a legend. As if his pole dancing to "We are Warriors, we are Warriors" wasn't enough to lighten the darkest of days he then gives us this nugget of Socratic wisdom.

Shrek: what's not to love.

p.s. Last words on the Samoa game;
Frodo had his best game in a long time, all credit to him. He still takes two steps sideways before passing, mind.
Matt Scott12 looked anything but a 12. Never mind the excellent player he was before his injury. Unless he's pulling up trees in training this week I'd start: Furra Linee, Richie V, Schlong or GC's mildly racist Uncle Doogie.
If we don't have a competitive back row Pooper will slow the ball down to the extent that Frodo will have to kick a lot and then we're fecced. Harley anyone?

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Post by George Carlin Tue 13 Oct 2015, 6:18 pm

Oh my god. Nothing about the citing hearing?
Nothing at all? Do we need to wait for a written judgement?
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Post by RDW Tue 13 Oct 2015, 6:30 pm

Craig Joubert is the ref on Sunday.

picard

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Post by nickj Tue 13 Oct 2015, 7:12 pm

Verdict or not, I've just booked my last minute ticket to Sunday's game. I figured they could do with my slightly over the top fervour to help negate the concrete rigidity of Twickers! Bring on the Mighty McDucks!

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Post by Nematode Tue 13 Oct 2015, 8:43 pm

This is outrageous - it shouldn't take as long as it is. If the players are not guilty then that's a whole day of training they have missed.

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Post by Nematode Tue 13 Oct 2015, 8:59 pm

Btw, does anyone know how the process of a citing works? From my interpretation it's a lawyer without rugby playing experience that makes the decision which doesn't seem proper.

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Post by RDW Tue 13 Oct 2015, 9:04 pm

O'Brien gets one week ban, so surely in order of magnitude both players will be let off and given a hearty handshake!

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Post by TJ Tue 13 Oct 2015, 9:07 pm

still no decision on the Scots?

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Post by RDW Tue 13 Oct 2015, 9:10 pm

Nope, despite their hearing starting 2 hours earlier! Maybe SoB pleaded guilty (sensible) and ours didn't.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 13 Oct 2015, 9:11 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Craig Joubert is the ref on Sunday.

picard

Oh God! The man who killed us against Wales a couple of seasons ago!

Joubert is an extremely pedantic ref, right up there with Barnes for needing to blow his whistle every 5 seconds. We must stay on the right side of him, no matter what happens.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 13 Oct 2015, 9:13 pm

Can't we just plea bargain?

Tell them they can't have Ford and Jonny but can suspend Strokosch and Wilson for life. You know, send a really strong message!

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Post by Nematode Tue 13 Oct 2015, 9:15 pm

Gray and Ford be looking out the window like:

QF4: Australia v Scotland, 18 October - Page 4 Giphy

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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 13 Oct 2015, 9:21 pm

I'm actually surprised they haven't asked Stuart Dickinson out of retirement to ref this one, perhaps with Lynagh and Campese running the line, and Gregan TMO.

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Post by ME-109 Tue 13 Oct 2015, 9:26 pm

Have you guys not seen the bans yet? Three weeks for each

edit..here's the link http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/news/112209

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Post by cakeordeath Tue 13 Oct 2015, 9:28 pm

ME-109 wrote:Have you guys not seen the bans yet? Three weeks for each

Just seen that, they should have snuck in a sneaky punch first, that way they would have only got a week

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Post by ME-109 Tue 13 Oct 2015, 9:29 pm

cakeordeath wrote:
ME-109 wrote:Have you guys not seen the bans yet? Three weeks for each

Just seen that, they should have snuck in a sneaky punch first, that way they would have only got a week

er...no comment.

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Post by TJ Tue 13 Oct 2015, 9:31 pm

Ouch - 3 wks is harsh. Mind you even one week would mean missing the rest of the WC Doh

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Post by Nematode Tue 13 Oct 2015, 9:34 pm

Just saw on twitter that Andrew Cotter says that Jack Lam wrote a statement in their defence. If that's the case, what a guy, huge respect.

Can't understand though how an accidental incident gets 3 weeks yet a knee to the ribs gets a yellow and a punch 1 week. Disgusting.

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Post by Nematode Tue 13 Oct 2015, 9:37 pm

Also, how come Tulilagi got 5 weeks for a knee which wasn't intended to cause damage, just break a tackle, and Pocock deliberately knees an opponent and gets a retrospective yellow!

Hopefully this travesty of justice will spur on the players.

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Post by Nematode Tue 13 Oct 2015, 9:39 pm

And this got nothing!!

QF4: Australia v Scotland, 18 October - Page 4 CROXil-WIAAelEb

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Post by RDW Tue 13 Oct 2015, 9:43 pm

That is completely outrageous compared to other decisions.

Deliberate knee on a prone player : 0 weeks

Deliberate punch un-provoked - 1 week

Accidental ruck clear out - 3 weeks

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Post by nickj Tue 13 Oct 2015, 9:44 pm

I've got to say I'm hugely disappointed with the ruling. Will we appeal? The wording in the RWC post suggests we haven't much of a chance.

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Post by cakeordeath Tue 13 Oct 2015, 9:46 pm

nickj wrote:I've got to say I'm hugely disappointed with the ruling. Will we appeal? The wording in the RWC post suggests we haven't much of a chance.

I wouldn't bother, has anyone ever won an appeal. No matter what they will miss the semi-final. It's complete bullsh1t though

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Post by Nematode Tue 13 Oct 2015, 9:50 pm

Well I suppose thoughts have to turn to who replaces Gray and Ford. I think Fraser Brown is a good enough replacement, should probably work quite well actually given he can also play 7.

Re Gray, will we roll out big Jim for one last game or maybe call up Fraser Mackenzie?

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Post by GLove39 Tue 13 Oct 2015, 9:51 pm

Excuse me whilst I test out the swear filter.
World rugby really must be the biggest Kumquat out there. Totally Frak farcical. This entire situation stinks.

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Post by cakeordeath Tue 13 Oct 2015, 9:52 pm

Nematode wrote:Well I suppose thoughts have to turn to who replaces Gray and Ford. I think Fraser Brown is a good enough replacement, should probably work quite well actually given he can also play 7.

Re Gray, will we roll out big Jim for one last game or maybe call up Fraser Mackenzie?

Can you call up replacements for players who have been banned. I don't think you can

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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 13 Oct 2015, 9:53 pm

The law is an ass.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 13 Oct 2015, 9:54 pm

cakeordeath wrote:
Nematode wrote:Well I suppose thoughts have to turn to who replaces Gray and Ford. I think Fraser Brown is a good enough replacement, should probably work quite well actually given he can also play 7.

Re Gray, will we roll out big Jim for one last game or maybe call up Fraser Mackenzie?

Can you call up replacements for players who have been banned. I don't think you can

Is there still time for Wilson and Strokosch to have an "accident"?

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Post by Nematode Tue 13 Oct 2015, 9:57 pm

I just hope we don't see Denton in the SR...

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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:00 pm

Nematode wrote:I just hope we don't see Denton in the SR...

Well if it happens then Cotter only has himself to blame for his silly squad picks. His choice to have only three second row specialists.

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Post by Biltong Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:02 pm

Nematode wrote:Just saw on twitter that Andrew Cotter says that Jack Lam wrote a statement in their defence. If that's the case, what a guy, huge respect.

Can't understand though how an accidental incident gets 3 weeks yet a knee to the ribs gets a yellow and a punch 1 week. Disgusting.

Yep, as far as consistency and logic goes the judicial system has no equal.
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Post by TJ Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:02 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:The law is an ass.

I don't think so. Putting players in danger by turning them upside down has been rightly made a serious offense. Its clear they did tip the guy and the citing panel thought it worth a red card. turn someone upside down you always at risk of a red - see Warburton etc

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Post by Nematode Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:06 pm

Tbh I don't disagree that it was dangerous (on Lam) but when you look at their punishment in context, it's unfair.

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Post by Rugby Fan Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:07 pm

It's a hard ban but there is some precedent for a double-lifting in Super Rugby.

http://www.rugbydump.com/2015/05/4321/waratahs-will-skelton-and-tolu-latu-both-suspended-for-double-lifting-tackle?page=all

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Post by RDW Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:07 pm

The ban explained - 4 weeks, increased to 5 to set an example, reduced to 3 for good behaviour.

SoB - 2 weeks reduced to 1 for good behaviour.

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Post by TJ Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:09 pm

Biltong wrote:
Nematode wrote:Just saw on twitter that Andrew Cotter says that Jack Lam wrote a statement in their defence. If that's the case, what a guy, huge respect.

Can't understand though how an accidental incident gets 3 weeks yet a knee to the ribs gets a yellow and a punch 1 week. Disgusting.

Yep, as far as consistency and logic goes the judicial system has no equal.

Its completely logical and fair guys - understand how the law works and what is intended.  a punch to the abdo is foul play but does not put a persons life and health in danger in the same way as tipping him on his head which could break his spine.  A punch to the head would attract a higher sanction.

In rugby its not the intent that counts, its the outcome  In these two cases the outcome is very different.  One winded the guy with really no chance of any further injury, the other had the potential to kill or paralyse - yes kill.  Break C1 ( top vertebrae) and you are dead

Rugby has rightly clamped down on moves with the potential to severely injure ie break necks and the like.

law 10.4 (j) Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player’s feet are still off the ground such that the player’s head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground is dangerous play.

3 weeks for both of them could be seen to be a bit harsh but as soon as I saw it in replay I thought it looked like a clear tip onto the head / neck thus putting it into red card territory.  Is 3 weeks not about right for a red card incident that was not spotted by the ref?  Seems to me its not too far away.

If SOB had punched to the head he would have received a greater ban


Last edited by TJ on Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Biltong Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:09 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:The ban explained - 4 weeks, increased to 5 to set an example, reduced to 3 for good behaviour.

SoB - 2 weeks reduced to 1 for good behaviour.

You kind of detract from "setting an example" when you then us "good behaviour" to reduce it again, eh?
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Post by Sin é Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:10 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:That is completely outrageous compared to other decisions.

Deliberate knee on a prone player : 0 weeks

Deliberate punch un-provoked - 1 week

Accidental ruck clear out - 3 weeks

Sean O'Brien got 2 weeks reduced to one for good conduct. He also admitted he was wrong unlike your two lads.
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Post by RDW Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:12 pm

Also worth adding one week's ban for Hooper for a shoulder charge to someone' head for comparison

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Post by TJ Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:12 pm

RDW - its not intent that counts - its outcome. punch to the abdo is seen as lower risk than a tip on the head - rightly so

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Post by RDW Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:18 pm

So a clumsy accident is worse that a deliberate act of violence?

So if I hold a plank of wood over my shoulder and turn round suddenly and knock someone out, that is worse than deliberately hitting someone with said plank of wood but not hurting them?

Not a rugby comparison but I'm sure you get my point.


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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:18 pm

TJ - I hear what you say, my comment was more directed at the inconsistency of application, and the slightly random nature of the sentencing.

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Post by RDW Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:19 pm

Also, it is ridiculous that intent isn't more important - can't remember which comedian said that it is ridiculous that attempted murder is less of an offense than murder - they still tried to kill someone, they just weren't very good at it!

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Post by RDW Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:24 pm

Another comparison - this was deemed worthy of a 1 week ban:

https://twitter.com/RugbyGlasgow/status/654039634217967616

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Post by tigertattie Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:29 pm

Siting commissioner Austalian

Sean o'brien is Irish

I love rugby but the muppets that are in charge of it are ruining the thing.

This World Cup was supposed to be about opening rugby to the masses. Why would the masses want to get involved in a sport where the ruling body is as corrupt as FIFA???
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Post by RDW Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:41 pm

Having watched it again I think it is incredibly harsh on Ford - he goes to clear the guy out in the upper side of the Samoan'a chest - he doesn't actually lift the guys leg at all. Because Gray did he then falls on the guy awkwardly. I don't see how he can be banned therefore for a leg lift when he didn't lift a leg.

Very harsh, and a real shame given it is probably his last world cup

Gray is in a worse predicament, but that's not the contention here - it is the length of ban compared to other offenses.

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Post by TJ Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:42 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:So a clumsy accident is worse that a deliberate act of violence?


.

yes it is if the clumsy accident puts them in life threatening danger and the deliberate act does not.

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QF4: Australia v Scotland, 18 October - Page 4 Empty Re: QF4: Australia v Scotland, 18 October

Post by TJ Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:43 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Having watched it again I think it is incredibly harsh on Ford - he goes to clear the guy out in the upper side of the Samoan'a chest - he doesn't actually lift the guys leg at all. Because Gray did he then falls on the guy awkwardly. I don't see how he can be banned therefore for a leg lift when he didn't lift a leg.

Very harsh, and a real shame given it is probably his last world cup

Gray is in a worse predicament, but that's not the contention here - it is the length of ban compared to other offenses.

I agree that Ford can feel hard done by. Gray cannot - he is in clear breach of the law

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QF4: Australia v Scotland, 18 October - Page 4 Empty Re: QF4: Australia v Scotland, 18 October

Post by RDW Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:44 pm

TJ wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:So a clumsy accident is worse that a deliberate act of violence?


.

yes it is if the clumsy accident puts them in life threatening danger and the deliberate act does not.

So Bosh tackling a player onto his head wasn't putting him in life threatening danger?

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QF4: Australia v Scotland, 18 October - Page 4 Empty Re: QF4: Australia v Scotland, 18 October

Post by yappysnap Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:49 pm

TJ wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Nematode wrote:Just saw on twitter that Andrew Cotter says that Jack Lam wrote a statement in their defence. If that's the case, what a guy, huge respect.

Can't understand though how an accidental incident gets 3 weeks yet a knee to the ribs gets a yellow and a punch 1 week. Disgusting.

Yep, as far as consistency and logic goes the judicial system has no equal.

Its completely logical and fair guys - understand how the law works and what is intended.  a punch to the abdo is foul play but does not put a persons life and health in danger in the same way as tipping him on his head which could break his spine.  A punch to the head would attract a higher sanction.

In rugby its not the intent that counts, its the outcome  In these two cases the outcome is very different.  One winded the guy with really no chance of any further injury, the other had the potential to kill or paralyse - yes kill.  Break C1 ( top vertebrae) and you are dead

Rugby has rightly clamped down on moves with the potential to severely injure ie break necks and the like.

law 10.4 (j) Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player’s feet are still off the ground such that the player’s head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground is dangerous play.

3 weeks for both of them could be seen to be a bit harsh but as soon as I saw it in replay I thought it looked like a clear tip onto the head / neck thus putting it into red card territory.  Is 3 weeks not about right for a red card incident that was not spotted by the ref?  Seems to me its not too far away.

If SOB had punched to the head he would have received a greater ban

If it's out come that's important why does that matter? The out come was that the player was fine.

If it's potential out come that you mean well that's different, yes being lifted and landing on a certain part could be fatal. But then so could a punch to the head, or a knee.

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QF4: Australia v Scotland, 18 October - Page 4 Empty Re: QF4: Australia v Scotland, 18 October

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