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Post by majesticimperialman Tue 13 Oct 2015, 4:59 pm

Have just been looking at the World Rankings. England are down to 8th place. Just above Scotland.

I  cannot remember England being so low in the World Rankings. I guess this world cup as been a lot worse for England than it first looked.

What ever the out come of this review into England's world cup exit. Who ever takes over as a lot of work to do to take England back up the World Ranking table.
(1)
New Zealand
NZL
92.89
2
(2)
Australia
AUS
90.93
3
(5)
Ireland
IRE
85.74
4
(3)
Wales
WAL
85.71
5
(4)
South Africa
RSA
84.58
6
(7)
Argentina
ARG
80.49
7
(6)
France
FRA
79.77
8
(8)
England
ENG
79.77
9
(9)
Scotland
SCO
77.94
10

Read more at http://www.worldrugby.org/rankings#Z5ElslLgy5SlhhSf.99

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Post by BamBam Tue 13 Oct 2015, 5:02 pm

There's a thread stickied above maj!

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Post by TJ Tue 13 Oct 2015, 5:03 pm

world cups get double points IIRC so it has a greater effect on your rankings and england were beaten by two sides below them so double double whammy.

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Post by thebandwagonsociety Tue 13 Oct 2015, 5:11 pm

You really could throw a beer coaster over 3-4-5 and 6-7-8 in the rankings. Goes to show how close things are.

Out of curiosity, for Englands games in the RWC did they adjust for 'home' matches or do they treat them as all being neutral ground fixtures?

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Post by TJ Tue 13 Oct 2015, 5:42 pm

erm - not just 6 7 8 but 9 and 10 are not far behind. England have dropped from - chasing NZ to just holding on to the third rank like scotland

I believe they are all treated as neutral grounds

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Post by thebandwagonsociety Tue 13 Oct 2015, 5:45 pm

So if it hadn't been a neutral ground (they were in Twickers after all) then they would have been deducted more ranking points for each loss? Are England ranked too high!?

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Post by SecretFly Tue 13 Oct 2015, 6:01 pm

What about Wales. Were their two home games ranked as 'away/neutral' for WC purposes?

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Post by Guest Tue 13 Oct 2015, 6:28 pm

SecretFly wrote:What about Wales.  Were their two home games ranked as 'away/neutral' for WC purposes?

For all rankings queries and World Cup fixture disputes please contact the IRB directly. Contact details on their website.

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Post by TJ Tue 13 Oct 2015, 6:38 pm

SecretFly wrote:What about Wales.  Were their two home games ranked as 'away/neutral' for WC purposes?

My understanding is all WC games are treated as neutral grounds

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Post by SecretFly Tue 13 Oct 2015, 6:39 pm

It's a simple 'what games were or were not considered 'home' games' question.  If people know, they'll say and be thanked.  If they don't, no harm done..................... I think.

Finding my way around that Goddamned World Rugby (not IRB anymore) site is like trying to get out of the Amazon after being dropped in the middle of it.

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Post by TJ Tue 13 Oct 2015, 6:40 pm

All WC gmes are treated as being at neutral grounds!

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Post by SecretFly Tue 13 Oct 2015, 6:42 pm

Yeah TJ Wink Got that. Just replying to Griff.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 13 Oct 2015, 6:43 pm

..oh and...thanks. OK

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Post by Guest Tue 13 Oct 2015, 9:27 pm

SecretFly wrote:Yeah TJ Wink  Got that.  Just replying to Griff.

I was just trying to be clever/funny. Whoops! Hug Very Happy

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Post by Gooseberry Wed 14 Oct 2015, 8:37 am

This does flag up a point though...if England have a bad six nations / summer tour and slip any further it pretty much garuntees them another stinker of a group for the next world cup...unless changes to the seedings are rushed through (last word was that the review was unlikely to include 2019) theres a chance they could drop to the third pot.

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Post by RubyGuby Wed 14 Oct 2015, 8:48 am

Just like life itself the natural order of things eventually comes around and settles

thumbsup

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Post by Pal Joey Wed 14 Oct 2015, 9:01 am

And the cream rises to the top.
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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 14 Oct 2015, 9:07 am

Because at this stage the rankings mean so much don't they!!!!!?????

They mean didly squat!!!!!

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Post by RubyGuby Wed 14 Oct 2015, 9:09 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Because at this stage the rankings mean so much don't they!!!!!?????

They mean didly squat!!!!!

We know that Geordie but sometimes you've just got to roll with it

thumbsup

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Post by Pal Joey Wed 14 Oct 2015, 9:11 am

Especially with Japan nipping at your heels.
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Post by majesticimperialman Wed 14 Oct 2015, 9:14 am

RubyGuby wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Because at this stage the rankings mean so much don't they!!!!!?????

They mean didly squat!!!!!

We know that Geordie but sometimes you've just got to roll with it

thumbsup

Yes Rugby for now Wales deserve their place above England.

For Now. thumbsup

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Post by RubyGuby Wed 14 Oct 2015, 9:23 am

The Real World Rankings

1 - NZ
2 - Aus
3 - SA/IRE
4 - Wales/Eng/Arg
5 - France

The Rest

Hope that helps

thumbsup

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Post by TJ Wed 14 Oct 2015, 9:24 am

Gooseberry wrote:This does flag up a point though...if England have a bad six nations / summer tour and slip any further it pretty much garuntees them another stinker of a group for the next world cup...unless changes to the seedings are rushed through (last word was that the review was unlikely to include 2019)  theres a chance they could drop to the third pot.

Yup - as happened to Scotland - Scotland were in the third pot for this WC ( just lucky the second pot was Samoa)

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Wed 14 Oct 2015, 10:44 am

TJ wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:This does flag up a point though...if England have a bad six nations / summer tour and slip any further it pretty much garuntees them another stinker of a group for the next world cup...unless changes to the seedings are rushed through (last word was that the review was unlikely to include 2019)  theres a chance they could drop to the third pot.

Yup - as happened to Scotland - Scotland were in the third pot for this WC ( just lucky the second pot was Samoa)

Same thing happened to Wales too.

The other way of looking at it is that England theoretically could go through as third seed, but come the RWC they could be back up to one of the top 4 in the world, and they could be against two teams that have slid down the pecking order.
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Post by lostinwales Wed 14 Oct 2015, 10:46 am

The Loaded Dog wrote:And the cream rises to the top.

Other stuff floats pretty well too....

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Post by SecretFly Wed 14 Oct 2015, 10:54 am

Laugh

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Post by fa0019 Wed 14 Oct 2015, 11:01 am

come the end of the RWC all should be close to being accurate. People look into things a little too much during a RWC due to the heavier weighting teams get when they are yet to lose matches midway through the tournament.

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Post by SecretFly Wed 14 Oct 2015, 11:11 am

Spot on, fa. A WC is a yoyo tree of up and down fun.

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Post by Pal Joey Wed 14 Oct 2015, 11:12 am

lostinwales wrote:
The Loaded Dog wrote:And the cream rises to the top.

Other stuff floats pretty well too....

You mean like all those England fan's dreams and aspirations of seeing their team lift the Webb Ellis Trophy in 2015?  Laugh
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Post by lostinwales Wed 14 Oct 2015, 11:13 am

The Loaded Dog wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
The Loaded Dog wrote:And the cream rises to the top.

Other stuff floats pretty well too....

You mean like all those England fan's dreams and aspirations of lifting the Webb Ellis Trophy in 2015?  Laugh

All those dreams and aspirations sank like a stone.. Crying or Very sad

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Post by Pal Joey Wed 14 Oct 2015, 11:20 am

lostinwales wrote:
The Loaded Dog wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
The Loaded Dog wrote:And the cream rises to the top.

Other stuff floats pretty well too....

You mean like all those England fan's dreams and aspirations of lifting the Webb Ellis Trophy in 2015?  Laugh

All those dreams and aspirations sank like a stone.. Crying or Very sad

Don't worry. England will pick things up. Same as us with the cricket. Part of the fun is the rebuilding process.
You should be in a much better position in 4 years time... like us with cricket. Except it's only 1.5 years in our case. Smile
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Post by lostinwales Wed 14 Oct 2015, 11:24 am

The Loaded Dog wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
The Loaded Dog wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
The Loaded Dog wrote:And the cream rises to the top.

Other stuff floats pretty well too....

You mean like all those England fan's dreams and aspirations of lifting the Webb Ellis Trophy in 2015?  Laugh

All those dreams and aspirations sank like a stone.. Crying or Very sad

Don't worry. England will pick things up. Same as us with the cricket. Part of the fun is the rebuilding process.
You should be in a much better position in 4 years time... like us with cricket. Except it's only 1.5 years in our case. Smile

Yes. I don't actually think there is a lot between a lot of these teams at their best, but for whatever reason Australia are operating close to their best and England were a long long way from it.

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Post by Pal Joey Wed 14 Oct 2015, 11:34 am

Timing is everything and maybe we have reached a certain level after years of disappointment.
Like any sports teams there are good times and bad. It seems like half of our game was seen as laughing stock for the last 40 years (a couple of months of peak performance here and there) but now there has been a slight improvement - the rest of our game is beginning to click.

Similar to the Ashes. A couple of stunning performances from a few and then the whole team lifts... crowd support then grows... and the players then start to actually believe they can do the job. This has to be timed to coincide with the most important challenges or tests.
The thing is; it can burst like a bubble at any time and come crashing back down to earth. We all have to live with that same possibility.
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Post by maestegmafia Wed 14 Oct 2015, 11:39 am

The Loaded Dog wrote:Timing is everything and maybe we have reached a certain level after years of disappointment.
Like any sports teams there are good times and bad. It seems like half of our game was seen as laughing stock for the last 40 years (a couple of months of peak performance here and there) but now there has been a slight improvement - the rest of our game is beginning to click.

Similar to the Ashes. A couple of stunning performances from a few and then the whole team lifts... crowd support then grows... and the players then start to actually believe they can do the job. This has to be timed to coincide with the most important challenges or tests.
The thing is; it can burst like a bubble at any time and come crashing back down to earth. We all have to live with that same possibility.

True, in the four years preceding a RWC all we hear about are cycles, perpetrating, building experience and depth.

Truth is you can do bugger all about lots of players getting injured, but not seeing the flaws in the team you are building is an issue that falls flatly at the coaches feet.

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Post by Gooseberry Wed 14 Oct 2015, 12:44 pm

TJ wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:This does flag up a point though...if England have a bad six nations / summer tour and slip any further it pretty much garuntees them another stinker of a group for the next world cup...unless changes to the seedings are rushed through (last word was that the review was unlikely to include 2019)  theres a chance they could drop to the third pot.

Yup - as happened to Scotland - Scotland were in the third pot for this WC ( just lucky the second pot was Samoa)

In Scotlands case they are pretty much always in the third pot rankings bracket, and as you say got a fairly lucky draw (ditto England when they got Argentina for the 2011 cup). A better example wouldve been Wales ... who come tournament start were at the top of pot 2 in a group with two pot 1 positioned teams... but were drawn as a pot 3.

It is worth remembering though that 50% of the teams left in will lose their next game and see their ratings drop ...most likley pushing England back up the rankings. Getting into the top 4 by the time of the next draw is pretty unlikely, but it woudl take a pretty awful 6 nations to push them to 9th or lower. There is of course the chance they will luck out and get a decent draw anyway.


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Post by LordDowlais Wed 14 Oct 2015, 12:51 pm

Gooseberry wrote:but it woudl take a pretty awful 6 nations to push them to 9th or lower. There is of course the chance they will luck out and get a decent draw anyway.

They could very well lose to Wales and Ireland, and perhaps France. If they then did not win an AI against any of the big 3 then they could be looking over their shoulder, but in saying that, they have Wales and Ireland at home, so I would bet on England winning both of those games.

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed 14 Oct 2015, 12:57 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:but it woudl take a pretty awful 6 nations to push them to 9th or lower. There is of course the chance they will luck out and get a decent draw anyway.

They could very well lose to Wales and Ireland, and perhaps France. If they then did not win an AI against any of the big 3 then they could be looking over their shoulder, but in saying that, they have Wales and Ireland at home, so I would bet on England winning both of those games.

I wouldn't bet on it.

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Post by Gooseberry Wed 14 Oct 2015, 1:28 pm

3 distinctly loseable games in Aus, then Argentina ( who should be relatively easy given their inability to field proper sides for Euro tours) and SA and Aus.

Theres a lot of games they have a reasonable chance of losing in the next year, although none youd say they dont have a chance in. So really its wide open where England could end up ranked come the draw. Should they somehow put on a good show and say win 3 of the 4 tough 6 nations games, get a win in Aus, and sweep the AIs that could well see them as a Pot 1 side again ( and sod law ending up in a group with Aus and Wales.....)

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Post by SecretFly Wed 14 Oct 2015, 1:33 pm

ranking gains in the 6n will have a lot to do with what ranking the present 6N contenders end up with

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Post by rodders Wed 14 Oct 2015, 1:58 pm

RubyGuby wrote:The Real World Rankings

1 - NZ
2 - Aus
3 - SA/IRE
4 - Wales/Eng/Arg
5 - France

The Rest

Hope that helps

thumbsup

Let me fix it for you ruby

1 NZ
2 Pooper
3 Wayne Barnes
4 Sean O'Brien's right fist

The rest.
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Post by Gooseberry Wed 14 Oct 2015, 5:17 pm

RubyGuby wrote:The Real World Rankings

1 - NZ
2 - Aus
3 - SAJAP/IRE
4 - Wales/Eng/Arg
5 - France



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Post by SecretFly Wed 14 Oct 2015, 5:29 pm

I'll try this:

1. NZ
2. SA
3. AUS/IRL
4. FR/ARG/WALES/ENG

I have a funny feeling that SA have more completeness than Australia.  And although we have different qualities/strengths, I think Australia and Ireland look roughly on par for now.

I could be proven wrong (again) on all that but a hunch remains a blasted hunch.

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed 14 Oct 2015, 8:00 pm

SecretFly wrote:I'll try this:

1. NZ
2. SA
3. AUS/IRL
4. FR/ARG/WALES/ENG

I have a funny feeling that SA have more completeness than Australia.  And although we have different qualities/strengths, I think Australia and Ireland look roughly on par for now.

I could be proven wrong (again) on all that but a hunch remains a blasted hunch.

Based on....

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Post by SecretFly Wed 14 Oct 2015, 8:02 pm

Based on constructive/destructive aggression - like wot Australia used against England. Wink

I knew someone would be offended....

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed 14 Oct 2015, 8:15 pm

Not offended... But astounded......by your delusion Wink.

Ireland haven't really beaten worthy opponent for a while. France are France, but the France of the past four years has been easy to nullify. I think after the final four face-off against one another in this competition we shall have a better idea of how the teams rank.

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Post by maestegmafia Wed 14 Oct 2015, 8:43 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Not offended... But astounded......by your delusion Wink.

Ireland haven't really beaten worthy opponent for a while. France are France, but the France of the past four years has been easy to nullify. I think after the final four face-off against one another in this competition we shall have a better idea of how the teams rank.


France had nothing to offer once Ireland scored their try. They couldn't get back into the game. I fear for them that they are going to get an absolute pasting this weekend when the all blacks unleash their full game.

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Post by mrsuperclear Wed 14 Oct 2015, 8:58 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Not offended... But astounded......by your delusion Wink.

Ireland haven't really beaten worthy opponent for a while. France are France, but the France of the past four years has been easy to nullify. I think after the final four face-off against one another in this competition we shall have a better idea of how the teams rank.

Does winning the last two six nations and coming first in our last two world cup pools count for nothing?

Other opponents we've beaten in the last 12 months include Australia, South Africa and England.

We'll see how the thing pans out, but don't think it's delusion at all, on the basis of the last two years 6N and the world cup thus far, don't think it's a far fetched order.

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Post by SecretFly Wed 14 Oct 2015, 9:23 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Not offended... But astounded......by your delusion Wink.

Ireland haven't really beaten worthy opponent for a while. France are France, but the France of the past four years has been easy to nullify. I think after the final four face-off against one another in this competition we shall have a better idea of how the teams rank.

This is not about having a better idea next week, it was about making a call this week on perceptions.
 
You've trapped yourself in your own logic.  How have Wales done in the worthy opponent front?  

England?
Wales just about scraped past England who were then obliterated by Australia.  Incidentally, an England also beaten recently by France, the team you rate lower than England itself.  So not great news for Wales, who beat England and think it worthwhile. Wink  

Ireland?  Twice.  Well we know what you think of them.  You think that they're ordinary and that they haven't beaten worthy opponents.  Well, they beat Wales recently.  Now if Welsh fans can use their beating of us (and have been doing so on these very threads in recent weeks) - then I think we can add beating Wales to our list.  Do you count yourselves worthy opponents?

Ireland topped their group and pummelled a supposedly much superior French aggressive outfit into the ground in the second half (the word 'superior' based on the number of people here last week who promised us we'd be beaten) - with no Paulie or Sexton, the two players every outside observer said Ireland couldn't possibly survive without.
We're double 6N champions, playing mostly what our critics regularly say is 'non-rugby' against dynamic chase/harry and counter-attacking sides.  Australia are 4N champs.

Yeah, I think I got things roughly right. Wink

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Post by whocares Wed 14 Oct 2015, 10:18 pm

Ok I'll a have a go as well:
NZ
AUS SA IRL
WALES
ENGLAND ARGENTINA
RCT
SCOTLAND FRANCE
REST
Whistle

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed 14 Oct 2015, 10:26 pm

.


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