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England,NH v SH RWC`s and every thing a discussion thread

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Post by emack2 Fri 16 Oct 2015, 9:58 pm

My knowledge of Rugby such as it is or was has over a period odd 62 years been gleaned from watching,listening too,reading
about from many sources.Despite my critics which are many Cyril,7/1-2 take a bow and friends that are few I try to give
a balanced view.Despite being viewed as some kind of village idiot nearly all my points have been the subject of media
comment at the time.if they bother to look through the pages here it is a fair bet have debated them many times since the
inception of this board.I was bought up in an era where you followed it [RU]by the papers,tour books,the radio,the odd
tv game or live when a touring side came.I was privileged to see NZ 1953-4 in both there modes,1964,Aus 1958,Boks 1961.
Until late 1960`s there were 2 professional sides NZ and SA and the rest. That changed briefly as NH Coaching came and
caught up and overtook SH.It lead first to great Welsh,France,and Lions side of that era,then to England under Jack Rowell,
Geoff Cooke and Clive Woodward all of had 70% averages.
According to whatever media you follow SCW was a great Coach/Manager or a Great Manager and the players coached themselves
also he was the first to have the money no object approach.Certainly he had some of the greatest players England ever had under
him.Again depending on what you read when his Great side disintergrated he bailed out,OR the RFU wouldn't give him the money
to finish the job.
Since then we have had 4 Coaches 2 of whom had better win/loss ratios than SCW when they were sacked SCW was there for
8 years the others less than or just 4.Is it fair to compare them with SCW`s reign?
In that period there were a stream of talented 10`s but they couldn`t live up to the image of the seemingly always injured
"Saint Jonny"so they gave up and in some cases went abroad for cash.
Now whatever you think of the current setup they don`t deserve the current press smear campaign.Latest being a SUIT with
a face you`d love to punch"I told them he wasn't up to the job etc.
Now I`d be interested in honest opinions here,how many thought the selection for the Wales match was wrong especially
Burgess.Does it come across to you as it does to me many teams are playing in a RWC mode safety first play not to lose
rather going all out to win.
"Targetting" games you think you can win rather than saying we can beat anyone as  an example I think SA and AUS have
a RWC winning style rather than NZ  who don`t seem to have.
What do you think would have happened if 1 given it was a difficult kick v Wales tried to set up a Dropped Goal from the lineout
2 if injuries hadn't disrupted England immediately prior to the Wales try .
Versus AUS Hooper should have seen at least yellow possibly red could England have won?,how much did the injury that forced Joseph
to wing matter.?
Hard to tell much from the Uruguay game but impressed with Joseph,Slade,wing with Blue Scrumcap but most of all Danny
Care`s service from Breakdown and Scrum.Also Easter and the combination shame about his age always rated him.
Englands future assuming the current set up is axed the Suits and the Teflon Kid should go too,who replaces him a
Jake White/Eddie Jones combo seems like a good start SCW who`s back biting comments changed from" its working"
during Wales match to "i always said it was wrong during Uruguay match.
Do you think Clubs in France be approached to unlimited access to England qualified players there?
Would you back a ring fenced top 2/4 Premier league clubs as the basis for an England Squad players
on direct contracts on the NZ pattern with limited number say 5.Only Non-Qualified players per squad.
Or a European equivalent of the Super 16 ,3 clubs from each Country and your European clubs
not seeing there Test players except for the odd game,Country before Club.
Which is the single biggest aspect of SH Rugby since going Pro.
Or do you accept that at the moment there isn't really much between any of the 6Ns side and let SLand co.Build for 2019?


Last edited by emack2 on Fri 16 Oct 2015, 10:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by RubyGuby Fri 16 Oct 2015, 10:13 pm

In my profession we occasionally use the term "Word Salad" This post reminds of that term

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Post by emack2 Fri 16 Oct 2015, 10:16 pm

An explanation of the term would be helpful my Pc dyslexia means me,struggling trying to get my thoughts across. Hug laughing

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Post by RubyGuby Fri 16 Oct 2015, 10:27 pm

No the gist is there emack - I just think people's emotions are getting the better of them, much of what you say is true but frustrations for many are running too high to have some decent reasoned debate at the moment. Geordie Falcon to his credit always calls a spade a shovel as does Tight Head. They'll be good guys to talk with

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 16 Oct 2015, 10:56 pm

pc dyslexia is not a thing.

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Post by Rugby Fan Fri 16 Oct 2015, 11:14 pm

emack2 wrote:My knowledge of rugby - such as it is - has been gleaned from watching, listening to, and reading many sources over a period of around 62 years. Despite what my many critics (take a bow Cyril and 7/1-2), or indeed my few friends might think, I try to give a balanced view.

Although I'm often regarded as some kind of village idiot, nearly all the points I raise are the subject of media
comment at the time. Since this board began, I've touched on the same issues, should anyone want to take the time to look back.

I was bought up following rugby through papers, tour books, radio, the occasional TV broadcast game, or live when I got tickets to see a touring side. I was privileged to see NZ in two different incarnations in 1953-4 and 1964; Australia in 1958 and the Boks in 1961.

Until the late 1960's there were 2 professional sides - New Zealand and South Africa - and the rest. That changed briefly as Northern Hemisphere coaching caught up, and then overtook, the South. This led firstly to the great Welsh, French, and Lions sides of that era, and then onto England under Geoff Cooke, Jack Rowell and Clive Woodward, who all had 70% winning records.

According to whichever media you follow SCW was a great coach/manager, or a great manager while the players coached themselves. He was also he was the first to take the approach that money was no object and he certainly had some of England's greatest ever players under him. Depending on what you read, when his great side disintegrated, he either bailed out, or the RFU wouldn't give him the money to finish the job.

Since then, we have had four coaches, two of whom had achieved better win/loss ratios than SCW when they were sacked. SCW was there for eight years, while the others were all given less than four. Is it really fair to make direct comparisons with SCW's reign?

After 2003, there were several talented 10's but none could live up to the image of the seemingly always injured
"Saint Jonny". Some elected instead to take the money on offer overseas.

Whatever you think of the current set-up, they don't deserve the current press smear campaign (comments about being "a suit with a face you'd love to punch" and endless claims of "I told them he wasn't up to the job" etc). Now I'd be interested in honest opinions here. How many thought the selection for the Wales match was wrong - especially the inclusion of Burgess?

Do people agree with me that many teams are playing in a safety-first mode for the tournament, playing not to lose, rather going all out to win? Targeting games you think you can win, rather than saying we can beat anyone?  I think, for instance, that South Africa and Australia have a Cup-winning style which New Zealand appear to lack.

Things could have easily gone very differently. Perhaps that last penalty chance against Wales wasn't easy but even a dropped goal from the lineout would have changed the outcome. Likewise, if England had kept the same personnel on the pitch to defend that last try as they had done all game. Against Australia, if Hooper had seen red then could England have won? Did the injury to May that forced Joseph to wing ultimately scupper their chances?

It's hard to tell much from the Uruguay game but I was impressed with Joseph, Slade and Nowell, but most of all with Danny Care's service from the breakdown and scrum. Also Nick Easter's inclusion gave a better back row combination. Shame about his age, I've always rated him.

Assuming the current coaching set up is axed, the RFU Suits and Teflon Kid Rob Andrew should go too. A Jake White/Eddie Jones combo seems like a good start rather than SCW, who changed his tune from "it's working" during the Wales match to "I always said everything was wrong" during the Uruguay match.

Should the clubs in France be approached to see if they will offer full access to England qualified players there? Would you back a ring-fenced group of top clubs as the basis for England squad players, or something like direct contracts on the NZ model and limiting the number of non English-qualified players in squads.

Or should there be a European equivalent of the Super 16, with 3 clubs from each country, and clubs not seeing their Test players except for the odd game. In other words, Country before Club. That's the single most important feature of the game in the Southern Hemisphere since the professional era began.

Or perhaps you think that there isn't anything fundamentally wrong, that the Six Nations sides are just very well-matched right now, and Lancaster should be allowed to see it through to 2019?

At least, the above version is what I think he meant.

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Post by aucklandlaurie Fri 16 Oct 2015, 11:20 pm

Thanks Rugby fan Youre a true sport.

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Post by gregortree Sat 17 Oct 2015, 7:29 am

RubyGuby wrote:In my profession we occasionally use the term "Word Salad" This post reminds of that term

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Salad chef in a Truro Sandwich Bar ?

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Post by ebop Sat 17 Oct 2015, 7:48 am

It's 1960s RubyGuby, not 1960's

Good effort thumbsup

Emack, what do mean by SA and the wallabies play a 'winning style' of RWC rugby? You mean scoring rolling maul tries against the lower ranked teams and kicking penalties? Both teams haven't really been tested yet.

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Post by majesticimperialman Sat 17 Oct 2015, 8:16 am

I have all ways thought that ( a )Bringing in Burgess who doe not have much rugby union experince was a gamble too far. ( b )Playing a player out of position should never be tried( playing burgess at centre and not in the pack) England have done that toooooooooo many time for my liking. (Mike Brown on the wing Ugo Monyeh at full back) unless their is any injury in game then it should not be done.

England need to look at a lot of thing's that went wrong, not just in this RWC, but over the last 4 years since SL and co took over.

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Post by eirebilly Sat 17 Oct 2015, 8:59 am

I have admired Lancaster since he became England manager and feel he has done a very good job. The problem, as I see it, with him is he is not a strong enough personality. He really should have dumped Andy Farrell because I always felt that he had too much influence over him in regards to selections and game plans. The game plan against Wales was not one of what I thought could have been Lancaster's. It was a game plan set up to negate Wales instead of trying to beat them. The same happened with Australia.

They were both Rugby League type approaches which in my mind can only come from Andy Farrell.

As a neutral, I was really enjoying the English progress under Lancaster but was devastated for him and the English fans that this all went wrong at the RWC. Changes in the England management are required and I would remove Lancaster simply for his lack of strength in dealing with his coaches but then again, I don't know the ins and outs and quite possibly Lancaster had no option to be the man in charge due to external influences...
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Post by emack2 Sat 17 Oct 2015, 10:26 am

When it comes too RWC`s I`m going on history only 4 teams have won a RWC and
only 5 reached a final.
Looking at the Groups expected,NZ and SA to go through unbeaten and Argentina,
Scotland as other side.England,Australia,and Ireland,France from the other Groups.
Not in any given order ,but expected England and France to reach QF because they
always have.
NOT because of the Fortress Twickham Hype,certain teams no matter how they
are doing outside it.Seem to come good in RWCs SA,Australia,France,England
nearly always make SF at worse.
NZ,i always expect them to reach SF stage but not win it something seems to go wrong
,1999 no NZ supporter realistically expected a win.
2007 the best 12 arguably in the World Aaron Mauger passed over for a shooting star
the rotation policy.Mean`t when the came to it they did`ntknow there best team.
2003 the need to fit in a goalkicker in a position he`d never played against one of the
best 13`s in history Steve Larkham was an accident ready to happen..
This squad great as it is you have the same problem potentially,Naholo experiment
is a failure.Undoubtedly a good player but neither match fit or up to squad speed.
The Burgess experiment smells to much like the Andy Farrell one a few years back.
RWCs agendas vary teams targeting games they think they can win instead of
trying to win every game.
Very understandable given the pressures teams are under to perform and the
media slagging if they fail.
In a group of 3 equal roughly teams in a Group one was going out no shame in
that.In every game there comes a moment get it right you`re a hero,wrong
you`re a clown.
The basic idea of a large defensive unit to negate Roberts was sound but it
needed to create attacking chance to and it didn't.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 17 Oct 2015, 3:10 pm

RubyGuby wrote:No the gist is there emack - I just think people's emotions are getting the better of them, much of what you say is true but frustrations for many are running too high to have some decent reasoned debate at the moment. Geordie Falcon to his credit always calls a spade a shovel as does Tight Head. They'll be good guys to talk with

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Post by RubyGuby Sat 17 Oct 2015, 7:08 pm

gregortree wrote:
RubyGuby wrote:In my profession we occasionally use the term "Word Salad" This post reminds of that term

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Salad chef in a Truro Sandwich Bar ?

Nice one Greg I like that thumbsup

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