Craig Joubert

First topic message reminder :

Well he feckin is !  lets make sure we do it boys ?

The running away thing certainly doesn't help him.

I once ran away from a girl on a Uni blind date night. Nearly got run over by a car. Running away rarely sends the right message, although on that occassion I think I got it spot on.

Risking it for the sake of looking tough cos whatever itll prolly be alright isnt a clever thing to do. End of the day this is twice in two world cups that us in the NH ave been calling for a refs head once one of our teams have lost.

There was a disallowed try by Australia where it could apparently have been interpreted as hands in the ruck by Scotland, by which point this would have meant nothing.

I get the anger, but surely the most anger must be how badly decisions were made on that line out, no SH team would have ever done that. Reflecting that onto a ref I cant agree with.

temporary21 wrote:The anger against the ref getting away from trouble only serves to prove his decision as the correct one. Had he stayed, he would have been in deliberate danger.

Would it have been deliberate or accidental?

funnyExiledScot wrote:The running away thing certainly doesn't help him.

I once ran away from a girl on a Uni blind date night. Nearly got run over by a car. Running away rarely sends the right message, although on that occassion I think I got it spot on.

Indeed, makes him an easy target. Speaking of which, sorry but couldn't resist making a couple more edits..
https://vine.co/v/e9DOJVnhJEi
&
https://vine.co/v/e9D1X719Emg

temporary21 wrote:Risking it for the sake of looking tough cos whatever itll prolly be alright isnt a clever thing to do. End of the day this is twice in two world cups that us in the NH ave been calling for a refs head once one of our teams have lost.

I don't think it's really a NH thing. The Kiwis had plenty to say about Barnes in 2007.

And Scotland could have had a knock on called against Laidlaw for his crucial try in the Samoa match...

A few things:

- The vast majority of Scots on here acknowledge that if we hadn’t messed up the restart and lineout we probably would have won – it might not have been said on this thread, but it will have been said elsewhere
- It hasn’t just been Scottish people complaining about his performance and his dash for freedom afterwards – some of the most scathing words have come from other nations. See Matt Dawson’s tweet for example! The press all round the world has ripped into his performance. You can’t therefore say that this is just the Scots moaning.
- This is a rugby forum for discussing rugby – this thread has become the place to discuss the refereeing decisions from the game. I hate the whole ‘you can’t complain about the ref because it is just showing sour grapes’ comments – as my earlier point said, we aren’t the only ones doing the complaining.
- Just to reiterate – Joubert isn’t the only reason we lost that game, we made a lot of mistakes ourselves. That doesn’t mean that we can’t feel aggrieved with how things were dealt with on the pitch.

RDW_Scotland wrote:A few things:

- The vast majority of Scots on here acknowledge that if we hadn’t messed up the restart and lineout we probably would have won – it might not have been said on this thread, but it will have been said elsewhere
- It hasn’t just been Scottish people complaining about his performance and his dash for freedom afterwards – some of the most scathing words have come from other nations.  See Matt Dawson’s tweet for example! The press all round the world has ripped into his performance.  You can’t therefore say that this is just the Scots moaning.
- This is a rugby forum for discussing rugby – this thread has become the place to discuss the refereeing decisions from the game. I hate the whole ‘you can’t complain about the ref because it is just showing sour grapes’ comments – as my earlier point said, we aren’t the only ones doing the complaining.
- Just to reiterate – Joubert isn’t the only reason we lost that game, we made a lot of mistakes ourselves. That doesn’t mean that we can’t feel aggrieved with how things were dealt with on the pitch.

The Ozzie and South African press are the most scathing

I agree with RDW above with a slight proviso - its fine to discuss the refs decisions and even be angry. Its wrong to call the ref biased or incompetent. All refs make bad calls - its the nature of the game. If Scotland had won then I am sure the Aus fans would have been angry about Scots hands in rucks and the use of the creative "john Jeffries" offside line

Its also wrong to say the ref cost you the game especially in this case

TJ wrote:I agree with RDW above with a slight proviso - its fine to discuss the refs decisions and even be angry.  Its wrong to call the ref biased or incompetent.  All refs make bad calls - its the nature of the game.  If Scotland had won then I am sure the Aus fans would have been angry about Scots hands in rucks and the use of the creative "john Jeffries" offside line

Its also wrong to say the ref cost you the game especially in this case

To be fair that is just 21st doing that, and we know what he's like when he gets emotional!

TJ wrote:I agree with RDW above with a slight proviso - its fine to discuss the refs decisions and even be angry.  Its wrong to call the ref biased or incompetent.  All refs make bad calls - its the nature of the game.  If Scotland had won then I am sure the Aus fans would have been angry about Scots hands in rucks and the use of the creative "john Jeffries" offside line

Its also wrong to say the ref cost you the game especially in this case

....and the scrum. No question we had one or two favourable calls in that regard, partcularly after Dickinson went off.

complaints  about refereeing ofc. However this seems more about venting anger and about him getting off the pitch which I think is completely the wrong focus. The other way around would you all be saying the same things?

temporary21 wrote:complaints  about refereeing ofc. However this seems more about venting anger and about him getting off the pitch which I think is completely the wrong focus. The other way around would you all be saying the same things?

Doesn't matter what we would have been saying - once again see my earlier post about the most explosive comments coming from elsewhere in the world.

People have taken real offence to him running off the pitch straight away - this isn't just the Scots moaning.

Who cares? Standing around taking abuse isnt his job, by all means question his ability in the job at the death, but thats a stupid thing to get mad about, from everyone.

Just gotta suck it up and move on, else it could be dark times for Scottish rugby

temporary21 wrote:Who cares? Standing around taking abuse isnt his job, by all means question his ability in the job at the death, but thats a stupid thing to get mad about, from everyone.

Just gotta suck it up and move on, else it could be dark times for Scottish rugby

It's always dark times in Scottish rugby. Winter has come, settled in and the monsters with the white eyes are already eating our young.

We love the misery.

temporary21 wrote:The anger against the ref getting away from trouble only serves to prove his decision as the correct one. Had he stayed, he would have been in deliberate danger.

Brilliant....thanks for that!

For all the talk about CJ nobody complained about last week's game when Scotland basically robbed Samoa and effectively ended Japan hopes in this world cup.

You can't get lucky every week.

VinceWLB wrote:For all the talk about CJ nobody complained about last week's game when Scotland basically robbed Samoa and effectively ended Japan hopes in this world cup.

You can't get lucky every week.

Must have been some very contentious points in that match...

World Rugby says it was the wrong decision but defends the ref. Not unreasonable.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/rugby-world-cup/11941560/World-Rugby-admit-that-Craig-Jouberts-decision-to-award-a-last-minute-penalty-to-Australia-was-incorrect.html

I hope the seml's and final are not given to Joubet or Barnes both make too many wrong calls

So they accept there was a man sausage up with that. What about the TMO not flagging the late hit on Hogg?

This is still filling me with rage!

Rugby dump have just emailed out an interesting take on it. As can be seen Phipps slaps it back which would then take effect the 11.3c law

Re; the penalty that was.
In the heat of battle, to Joubert it would have looked as though the ball bounced off a Jock shoulder and looped into the welcoming arms of a watching Jock forward in an offside position. Pen to Australia correct decision as far as he was concerned.

Cardiff Dave wrote:Re; the penalty that was.
In the heat of battle, to Joubert it would have looked as though the ball bounced off a Jock shoulder and looped into the welcoming arms of a watching Jock forward in an offside position. Pen to Australia correct decision as far as he was concerned.

The problem is, as much as I beleive that there was a point where Foley was lining up the kick where they commented that Joubert might be reconsidering due to him moving to rewatch the incident on the screen. He watches it and then allows the penalty.

Granted there were a chorus of boo's, but there have been in numerous games at numerous times, no ref has ever thought to himself 'This rugby crowd are abut to hurt me' it's never been a consideration from anyone.

As soon as the ball is played out of the ruck Joubert leaves the pitch before the ball nearly, and ignores Hoggs cries on his way passed.

I feel for Scotland, I feel for the fans in the stadium, and despite commenting on Jouberts performance during the game before the incident being a touch too pro Aus I feel for Joubert too, he's made an error, we've all done it, we've all had that sleepless night when we have done something stupid, we havn't all done it in front of millions, and had a country want blood!

Doesn't help when world rugby comes out and says he has got it wrong

So we were robbed 'officially' then?
I like it. This righteous indignation stuff is excellent.

George Carlin wrote:So we were robbed 'officially' then?
I like it. This righteous indignation stuff is excellent.

Bucky?

nathan wrote:Doesn't help when world rugby comes out and says he has got it wrong

Oh dear. At this rate we'll see all decisions going to the TMO. Then when the TMO gets it wrong, what next? No refs willing to have a go?

David Flatman thinks World Rugby have thrown Joubert under a bus with that statement.

It's hard to know what they aimed to achieve by making it. They haven't felt the need to clarify too many other incidents during this tournament.

Rugby Fan wrote:David Flatman thinks World Rugby have thrown Joubert under a bus with that statement.

It's hard to know what they aimed to achieve by making it. They haven't felt the need to clarify too many other incidents during this tournament.

I agree. They must have regarded this as a cataclysmic horlicks to have gone to the trouble of issuing the statement. The pressure must have been huge.

You can read the statement as either supportive of Joubert or telling fans "don't judge all of our officials by that clown Joubert".

I think honesty is a good thing for everyone and most of us thought like Joubert in real time. He got it wrong, it would be a shame to lose a top ref because of this. Last year a Premier league football ref apologised to a manager for getting a decision wrong. I think that's healthy. Until they have help from technology and have a license to use it what do we expect them to do. They need help for key decisions at key times.

And whilst we're at it Scotland I don't remember too many of you moaning when Joe Jordan handled the ball v Wales in a World Cup qualifier play off and the ref awarded you guys the penalty -

Rugby Fan wrote:David Flatman thinks World Rugby have thrown Joubert under a bus with that statement.

It's hard to know what they aimed to achieve by making it. They haven't felt the need to clarify too many other incidents during this tournament.

4 hour rugby matches including a collective noun of referees/assistants.
Plus commercials.

Was still a scrum that Aussies would have been favourites to put points past though. In other words it may have affected VERY little, Scotlands fault for knocking it on.

Why would they have been favourites to score points if it were a scrum ? They were not exactly dominating the scrum area throughout the match. I'm glad that it has been clarified as the wrong decision and I can accept that CJ called what he thought he saw in real time. He can't ask the TMO as per the rules so he has to go with it.

Yes Scotland messed up but 2 wrongs don't make a right. Would have been much better if the scrum had been awarded and if Australia scored no controversy.

Very good chance to get the ball, they have a drop goal chance Australia are kings at the death, from his angle and no TMO, that shoulder barge forced him to have to make the call he did,

temporary21 wrote:Very good chance to get the ball, they have a drop goal chance Australia are kings at the death, from his angle and no TMO, that shoulder barge forced him to have to make the call he did,

I thought Australia looked out of sorts after giving away a try like that. The barge on Hogg was one sign. We can never know but it is a big reach to say Australia would definitely have had the composure to convert that scrum into points.

temporary21 wrote:Very good chance to get the ball, they have a drop goal chance Australia are kings at the death, from his angle and no TMO, that shoulder barge forced him to have to make the call he did,

In your opinion. However in your opinion it was a definite penalty. As I said I can see why he got it wrong and can accept that. However points were far less guaranteed from a scrum rather than an unopposed penalty kick.

As much as this must hurt the Scottish fans and their team, I really do feel sympathy for Joubert. To those that are calling him a cheat or that he has shown clear bias; you need to steady your horses a little, and think carefully about the implications of such outlandish claims. To those who have sent sheer vitriolic hate hurtling towards him, calling him things such as "maggot" or worse; shame on you. The rugby world would be much better without your kind, and the referees do not deserve such unintelligible nonsense spouted by bitter morons.

This is probably the end of the guy's career. WR have admitted that he made the wrong decision. It was a rather easy (albeit costly) mistake to make and I can obviously understand the anger on behalf of the Scottish fans. I felt a similar feeling (to a lesser extent given the occasion) when Jared Payne was incorrectly given a red card in a Heineken Cup knockout match. However, given the heat of the moment, Joubert clearly saw that the Scottish player was in an offside position when he caught the ball. He had to give the penalty, based on what he had saw. He could not consult the TMO and WR have explained why.

I remember during the game one of the commentary team stated that Joubert was watching the video replay after he had blew he whistle (while Foley was lining up the kick). From what I can gather, it was at this moment he probably saw that he had made the wrong call. To make such a huge mistake, to the booing of an angry mob and to have to face the Scottish players that he had just let down, I can see why he fled the scene. He isn't right for doing this, but boy did he have reason to run, and what I saw was a man who had realised the full extent of his decision and panicking at the outcome.

I really do hope that Craig Joubert can rebuild his career from here and become a well respected referee who will improve far beyond recognition. For those happy to see the guy's career ruined and for him to feel (far, far beyond) the guilt of his actions, you probably have your wish.

thats not what ive said at any time...
in my opinion the penalty was the clearest option in real time...

temporary21 wrote:Very good chance to get the ball, they have a drop goal chance Australia are kings at the death, from his angle and no TMO, that shoulder barge forced him to have to make the call he did,

Just so that I'm clear about what you're proposing as a likely conclusion - so in the remaining 45 seconds of the match, the Aussies would definitely win the scrum when their scrum had been getting crushed the entire match, recycle good possession, make yards, suck in defenders, create a pocket and Foley (who kicked less than 50% the whole game) would slot a clean drop goal.

Whilst fatigued. In the driving rain.

Right. I don't agree that this was the most likely scenario.

Well I dont agree that it should be a given that this one decision made it nailed on Scotland would have won, not easy to bet against Australia.

Though once again, Ive have not said once it was a clear penalty, it was certainly an infringement but dont start making stuff up.

temporary21 wrote:Well I dont agree that it should be a given that this one decision made it nailed on Scotland would have won, not easy to bet against Australia.

Though once again, Ive have not said once it was a clear penalty, it was certainly an infringement but dont start making stuff up.

Neither do I. I've watched Scottish teams for too long. I even said at home after they went ahead that it wasn't over. Yes Australia could have scored but it was not a given. I accept that you never said it was a clear penalty but you definitely thought by the rules that it was one.

Joubert hung out to dry by World Rugby. Sets a new precedent doesn't it. They were behind Barnes and Lawrence 100% for 1,000x worse performances.

It WAS a knock on, what the penalty for that is was not clear to me. So the match woud have still been live with an attacking scrum, all because of a terrible line out...
I mean the point is this is like the anger stage of grief, I think some of the stuff being said about a man for an understandable and uncorrectable mistake are out of order

I agree with that. He wasn't biased or didn't choke on the big stage like Barnes and Lawrence. He made a tricky call. I personally wish he hadn't been so trigger happy but it's too late now. Barnes would have called that a penalty because he is the most pedantic ref around.

This is my first comment this WC, but I feel I need the cathartic powers of an internet forum to help me get through this loss. In all my years of suffering through Scottish defeats, this has to be the toughest. For all those who think that the Scottish posters are going slightly OTT, spare a thought for just how rubbish we have been for such a very, very long time. We have stuttered from one inept performance to the next, gathering a long and noble succession of rubbish coaches and wooden spoons along the way. It is from that perspective that a lot of this anger stems.

Despite all of this, I actually think that there is not a lot that CJ could have done with that last penalty. I have looked at it from numerous angles at speed and in slow - motion, its almost impossible to tell who was at fault. He made a judgement call, it was wrong - but these things happen in rugby. Getting on with it and respecting the referee is what marks this game out as special. OK, he could have referred it - but as has been discussed adfinitum the laws prohibit him from doing so.

What does anger me is his fleeing from the pitch and the stone wall penalty on Hogg that was completely ignored. if Maitland's attempted interception was worthy of a yellow, I am struggling to see how the TMO could view Mitchell on Hogg as anything other than a penalty.

Ultimatley, the greatest source of anger and frustration is at our own ineptitude at performing basic skills under pressure. Only Scotland could conceive to throw the ball to the tail of the line out, with 60 seconds remaining, in the pouring rain, in the quarter final of a world cup, leading by one point. In the anger at Joubert I don't think we have really comprehended just how ridiculous a call that was. One line out. We had to win one lineout. How desperately predictable. How depressingly Scottish.

I don't think it's nailed on that Scotland would have won, but I do think it's very likely, given time left, conditions and the fact that the Aussie scrum was under pressure.

Scotland were robbed. If not in the win, then at least in the chance.

Joubert made a mistake. Refs make mistakes all the time. The difference with this one was the occasion, and the timing. No way back.
I can understand the anger, and saying things that wouldn't normally be said, but he isn't a cheat. Just another ref who made a mistake. He shouldn't be sacked, and he definitely shouldn't be abused on social media or anywhere else.

Scotland didn't lose this game because of Craig Jouberts decision. They lost because their defence was like a sieve - conceding 5 tries in world cup 1/4 final is 3rd rate - and they were impotent in attack. If they were slightly better in these areas they would have won and his decision wouldn't have mattered. Scotland were gifted 2 tries by Australia and had the benefit of Joubert not caring about the boring in of the prop, Nel. Despite this, they still weren't good enough to win. Easy to blame the ref instead of facing up to your own failings.

Ben Kay walks us through the moment.

https://twitter.com/RugbyTonight/status/656187324686991361

Icu wrote:Scotland didn't lose this game because of Craig Jouberts decision. They lost because their defence was like a sieve - conceding 5 tries in world cup 1/4 final is 3rd rate - and they were impotent in attack. If they were slightly better in these areas they would have won and his decision wouldn't have mattered. Scotland were gifted 2 tries by Australia and had the benefit of Joubert not caring about the boring in of the prop, Nel. Despite this, they still weren't good enough to win. Easy to blame the ref instead of facing up to your own failings.

Score in the 78th Minute 34-32
Referee gives incorrect penalty, as proven by World Rugby
79th Minute 35-35
Final Score 35-34.

They 100% did, there's no argument there. Whether or not a "better team" would be further ahead of Australia and as a result the decision would be inconsequential is completely irrelevant.