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IRFU to spend even more money on their wages.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 19 Oct 2015, 1:15 pm

First topic message reminder :

Irish rugby bosses will hand the four provinces an extra €3.2 million (£2.27m) a year to combat the threat of France's big-spending superpowers.

Philip Browne, chief executive of the Irish Rugby Football Union (IRFU), admitted the four provinces are "all struggling" to keep pace with their French counterparts.

The IRFU reported a surplus in excess of €8.7m (£6.18m) owing to ticket sales, new broadcasting deals and Ireland's two-straight Six Nations titles.

Browne admitted the IRFU have a duty to keep raising investment into Leinster, Munster, Connacht and Ulster where possible.

"At professional game level it allows to start putting a little bit more money into the academy system and the elite player pool," said Browne.

"What we're trying to do with David Nucifora [performance director] is to try and drive the high-performance system through the age groups so that we have contact with kids at an earlier age.

"It obviously allows us to put a bit more money into the provinces who are all struggling to some extent in terms of financial pressures that are coming to bear because of the money in France.

"We're trying to make them financially viable and sustainable but at the same time we've got to try to put competitive teams on the park. So it's about all those things, it's really around the high-performance system and player contracts where that money goes."

In the 2013-14 season, the IRFU posted a surplus of €7.3m (£5.9m). A second-straight surplus leaves the organisation in rude health ahead of next month's Rugby World Cup.

Oh, and just to add a link about spending as our Irish friends on here like us to provide such things, here is the IRFU annual report:-

http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFU ... 201314.pdf
http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFU ... 014_15.pdf

Looks like the Irish will be spending the highest in Europe now.


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Post by SecretFly Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:32 pm

LordDowlais wrote:The WRU pays for the use of the Welsh players, they do not pay the wages of all the players based in Wales and the referees, like the IRFU do in Ireland. OK

Is it money they pay or chestnuts? If it's money - it's payment.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:32 pm

marty2086 wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The principle is the same Marty and you know it. The IRFU pay the Irish refs and the Irish based players, yet if we listen to you it is not true. But now that SS is telling you that Dan Carter is getting paid by two different companies you are trying your up-most to prove him wrong.

What is the difference ?

It's a strong link, LD, with Ovalto being the investment holding company.


Jacky LORENZETTI
Founding President of TERREIS
Lausanne Hotel School
President founder of Foncia Groupe 1972 to 2008: IPO in April 2001 sale of its stake in April 2007
Founding president since 2000 Ovalto Investment holding company of the group's activities (real estate, wine, sport and finance)

Proof

Yep that is certainly proof, however it is proof of what I have been saying since the very start of this, Racing and Ovalto are two separate companies.

How do you come to that conclusion?

How do you not?
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Post by LordDowlais Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:33 pm

marty2086 wrote:So its only dodgy if they pay for all the players? Whys that/ Because it suits you?

What are you on about ?

There is a conflict of interest in our league and a cause for potential bias. But I have never said that the IRFU are dodgy or corrupt. You are reverting back to type again, and trying to swerve away from the topic as you have been caught out.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:36 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The WRU pays for the use of the Welsh players, they do not pay the wages of all the players based in Wales and the referees, like the IRFU do in Ireland. OK

Maybe the WRU should, it might drum up a bit of interest in the game. Playing to full stadiums tends to drum up a good bit of revenue you know......oh no, you don't do you......

Yes we know, we were the most supported side in all the WC pools don't you know ?

Sure about that Lord? I heard a lot of 'Swing Lows' going on in crowds all the way through the competition, even in the Millennium................ were they all Welsh people? Did they all want a Welsh win? The Aussies, the supporters of Australia? The English? The supporters of England? The South Africans? The supporters of South Africa?

Most supported side? Really?

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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:37 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The principle is the same Marty and you know it. The IRFU pay the Irish refs and the Irish based players, yet if we listen to you it is not true. But now that SS is telling you that Dan Carter is getting paid by two different companies you are trying your up-most to prove him wrong.

What is the difference ?

It's a strong link, LD, with Ovalto being the investment holding company.


Jacky LORENZETTI
Founding President of TERREIS
Lausanne Hotel School
President founder of Foncia Groupe 1972 to 2008: IPO in April 2001 sale of its stake in April 2007
Founding president since 2000 Ovalto Investment holding company of the group's activities (real estate, wine, sport and finance)

Proof

Yep that is certainly proof, however it is proof of what I have been saying since the very start of this, Racing and Ovalto are two separate companies.

How do you come to that conclusion?

How do you not?

Your assuming the lack of a proof of one thing is proof of another

marty2086

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:38 pm

SecretFly wrote:Most supported side? Really?

Yes REALLY, and becuase you like this sort of thing, here your link for proof:-

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-3269664/Wales-watched-nation-Rugby-World-Cup-95-cent-seats-filled-1-8m-attend-group-stage-games.html

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Post by Guest Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:38 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The principle is the same Marty and you know it. The IRFU pay the Irish refs and the Irish based players, yet if we listen to you it is not true. But now that SS is telling you that Dan Carter is getting paid by two different companies you are trying your up-most to prove him wrong.

What is the difference ?

It's a strong link, LD, with Ovalto being the investment holding company.


Jacky LORENZETTI
Founding President of TERREIS
Lausanne Hotel School
President founder of Foncia Groupe 1972 to 2008: IPO in April 2001 sale of its stake in April 2007
Founding president since 2000 Ovalto Investment holding company of the group's activities (real estate, wine, sport and finance)

Proof

Yep that is certainly proof, however it is proof of what I have been saying since the very start of this, Racing and Ovalto are two separate companies.

I legal terms I would have to think so. Otherwise how do they exploit the loophole?

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:39 pm

SecretFly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The WRU pays for the use of the Welsh players, they do not pay the wages of all the players based in Wales and the referees, like the IRFU do in Ireland. OK

Maybe the WRU should, it might drum up a bit of interest in the game. Playing to full stadiums tends to drum up a good bit of revenue you know......oh no, you don't do you......

Yes we know, we were the most supported side in all the WC pools don't you know ?  

Sure about that Lord?  I heard a lot of 'Swing Lows' going on in crowds all the way through the competition, even in the Millennium................  were they all Welsh people?  Did they all want a Welsh win?  The Aussies, the supporters of Australia?  The English?  The supporters of England?  The South Africans?  The supporters of South Africa?

Most supported side?  Really?

The most attended, that was Wales. But that does not mean they supported us, they could have been there preying to see us fail.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:40 pm

Not everyone at the game will have supported Wales. wales were the most watched live.

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Post by Guest Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:40 pm

SecretFly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The WRU pays for the use of the Welsh players, they do not pay the wages of all the players based in Wales and the referees, like the IRFU do in Ireland. OK

Maybe the WRU should, it might drum up a bit of interest in the game. Playing to full stadiums tends to drum up a good bit of revenue you know......oh no, you don't do you......

Yes we know, we were the most supported side in all the WC pools don't you know ?  

Sure about that Lord?  I heard a lot of 'Swing Lows' going on in crowds all the way through the competition, even in the Millennium................  were they all Welsh people?  Did they all want a Welsh win?  The Aussies, the supporters of Australia?  The English?  The supporters of England?  The South Africans?  The supporters of South Africa?

Most supported side?  Really?

And a lot of The Fields. We also had the highest attendance figures at the games Cool

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:42 pm

Munchkin wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The principle is the same Marty and you know it. The IRFU pay the Irish refs and the Irish based players, yet if we listen to you it is not true. But now that SS is telling you that Dan Carter is getting paid by two different companies you are trying your up-most to prove him wrong.

What is the difference ?

It's a strong link, LD, with Ovalto being the investment holding company.


Jacky LORENZETTI
Founding President of TERREIS
Lausanne Hotel School
President founder of Foncia Groupe 1972 to 2008: IPO in April 2001 sale of its stake in April 2007
Founding president since 2000 Ovalto Investment holding company of the group's activities (real estate, wine, sport and finance)

Proof

Yep that is certainly proof, however it is proof of what I have been saying since the very start of this, Racing and Ovalto are two separate companies.

I legal terms I would have to think so. Otherwise how do they exploit the loophole?

Thank you. This place is amazing, two pages of Marty and Fly telling me that they are all part of the same company, and finally we have reached a point where it is agreed that I was right way back a the start.

Oh well it has killed an afternoon in the office, and I think we now have a new thread for this sort of nonsense when the other Pro12 thread finally gets closed.
ScarletSpiderman
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Post by Guest Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:43 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The principle is the same Marty and you know it. The IRFU pay the Irish refs and the Irish based players, yet if we listen to you it is not true. But now that SS is telling you that Dan Carter is getting paid by two different companies you are trying your up-most to prove him wrong.

What is the difference ?

It's a strong link, LD, with Ovalto being the investment holding company.


Jacky LORENZETTI
Founding President of TERREIS
Lausanne Hotel School
President founder of Foncia Groupe 1972 to 2008: IPO in April 2001 sale of its stake in April 2007
Founding president since 2000 Ovalto Investment holding company of the group's activities (real estate, wine, sport and finance)

Proof

Yep that is certainly proof, however it is proof of what I have been saying since the very start of this, Racing and Ovalto are two separate companies.

I legal terms I would have to think so. Otherwise how do they exploit the loophole?

Thank you.  This place is amazing, two pages of Marty and Fly telling me that they are all part of the same company, and finally we have reached a point where it is agreed that I was right way back a the start.

Oh well it has killed an afternoon in the office, and I think we now have a new thread for this sort of nonsense when the other Pro12 thread finally gets closed.


Um.....sorry guys Shocked

Run

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Post by SecretFly Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:44 pm

The Group of Death was an easy group to find an audience for. Three big sides bringing their supporters and hangers on with them.... two of them not even needing a plane or boat to get there Wink


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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:46 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:So its only dodgy if they pay for all the players? Whys that/ Because it suits you?

What are you on about ?

There is a conflict of interest in our league and a cause for potential bias. But I have never said that the IRFU are dodgy or corrupt. You are reverting back to type again, and trying to swerve away from the topic as you have been caught out.

picard

We know theres a conflict but your constant argument focuses on how players and refs are paid which suggests corruption, this is in spite of not knowing who actually pays the refs in the league

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:47 pm

Watched/supported, who cares, we had the most bums on seats, and as the irish keep telling us, that is what counts.

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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:47 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The principle is the same Marty and you know it. The IRFU pay the Irish refs and the Irish based players, yet if we listen to you it is not true. But now that SS is telling you that Dan Carter is getting paid by two different companies you are trying your up-most to prove him wrong.

What is the difference ?

It's a strong link, LD, with Ovalto being the investment holding company.


Jacky LORENZETTI
Founding President of TERREIS
Lausanne Hotel School
President founder of Foncia Groupe 1972 to 2008: IPO in April 2001 sale of its stake in April 2007
Founding president since 2000 Ovalto Investment holding company of the group's activities (real estate, wine, sport and finance)

Proof

Yep that is certainly proof, however it is proof of what I have been saying since the very start of this, Racing and Ovalto are two separate companies.

I legal terms I would have to think so. Otherwise how do they exploit the loophole?

Thank you.  This place is amazing, two pages of Marty and Fly telling me that they are all part of the same company, and finally we have reached a point where it is agreed that I was right way back a the start.

Oh well it has killed an afternoon in the office, and I think we now have a new thread for this sort of nonsense when the other Pro12 thread finally gets closed.

Then Scarlet you'll be happy to tell us who owns Racing 92?

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:51 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:So its only dodgy if they pay for all the players? Whys that/ Because it suits you?

What are you on about ?

There is a conflict of interest in our league and a cause for potential bias. But I have never said that the IRFU are dodgy or corrupt. You are reverting back to type again, and trying to swerve away from the topic as you have been caught out.

picard

We know theres a conflict but your constant argument focuses on how players and refs are paid which suggests corruption, this is in spite of not knowing who actually pays the refs in the league

Who you claim pay the refs, and who actually pay the refs are two different things. Again, you are accusing me of something that I have never said.

You always do this, you get caught out and then make up lies to try and get yourself out of it. I have never used the words corrupt when I complain about my league, corruption means that something is being done wrong on purpose, conflict of interest is something that is happening that nobody is doing anything about. There is a conflict of interest in our league, you know it and I know it, and so do a lot of others. But you do not care about it as it suits you.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:51 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Thank you.  This place is amazing, two pages of Marty and Fly telling me that they are all part of the same company, and finally we have reached a point where it is agreed that I was right way back a the start.

Oh well it has killed an afternoon in the office, and I think we now have a new thread for this sort of nonsense when the other Pro12 thread finally gets closed.

Our loophole is Four Persons in One God. What's the problem? Wink

A Welsh loophole is declaring that Regions get absolutely no money or assistance from WRU but maybe do get some money.
Another Welsh loophole is always hosting WCs that they don't host, and getting two Home games in a WC they're not hosting Wink It's a peculiar world, Scarlet. Enjoy it, it's not going to get any more sane.

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Post by Guest Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:56 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Watched/supported, who cares, we had the most bums on seats, and as the irish keep telling us, that is what counts.

It is, although I think it was the games involving Ireland that had highest attendance. As for the viewing figures? Those figures would be slightly skewed by the profile of the teams in a particular group. No doubt the 'group of death' attracted a higher viewing figure because Australia, Wales and England were all involved.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:57 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Watched/supported, who cares, we had the most bums on seats, and as the irish keep telling us, that is what counts.

I care. Smile  

Who got the biggest crowd in one place?  Who got the biggest crowd in the Millennium?  And who needed boats and planes to do it?  Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo

We win the Smug Large Crowd Award again, Lord!!!!!   guinness guinness music Bubbly Bubbly  Just got you at the finish line.  We went for the lineout and ours worked!!! Ale Ale

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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:59 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:So its only dodgy if they pay for all the players? Whys that/ Because it suits you?

What are you on about ?

There is a conflict of interest in our league and a cause for potential bias. But I have never said that the IRFU are dodgy or corrupt. You are reverting back to type again, and trying to swerve away from the topic as you have been caught out.

picard

We know theres a conflict but your constant argument focuses on how players and refs are paid which suggests corruption, this is in spite of not knowing who actually pays the refs in the league

Who you claim pay the refs, and who actually pay the refs are two different things. Again, you are accusing me of something that I have never said.

You always do this, you get caught out and then make up lies to try and get yourself out of it. I have never used the words corrupt when I complain about my league, corruption means that something is being done wrong on purpose, conflict of interest is something that is happening that nobody is doing anything about. There is a conflict of interest in our league, you know it and I know it, and so do a lot of others. But you do not care about it as it suits you.

I don't disagree on the conflict but again I will say your focus is on the IRFU

You ignore the fact that the SRU own the Scottish teams, so if you're correct about who pays the refs then there'd be a conflict there. As the WRU also pay the wages of a number of Welsh players there'd also exist a conflict there whether you like it or not.

You say nothing is being done about it but you don't know if that's true, in fact the fact that you don't have all Irish officials taking charge of an Irish team against a Welsh team would say that something is being done

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 20 Oct 2015, 4:02 pm

Munchkin wrote:It is, although I think it was the games involving Ireland that had highest attendance

No it was not, if that were the case, then Ireland would be top of the pile, they are not, Wales are, then England. Ireland are a very commendable 3rd, not to be sniffed at, and very well done considering you had to cross the see on a boat or plane. Well done.

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Post by Guest Tue 20 Oct 2015, 4:04 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:It is, although I think it was the games involving Ireland that had highest attendance

No it was not, if that were the case, then Ireland would be top of the pile, they are not, Wales are, then England. Ireland are a very commendable 3rd, not to be sniffed at, and very well done considering you had to cross the see on a boat or plane. Well done.

I think you're wrong. I'm pretty sure I have read the figures somewhere, and those figures showed the Irish games being at the top. Willing to be proven wrong though. Do you have the attendance figures?

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Post by SecretFly Tue 20 Oct 2015, 4:05 pm

The moral of this story is don't go blaming bad refs for schyte rugby. Schyte rugby exists when players don't have the skills to do any better. Bang, bang, wallop, bang, a little shimmy or three - maybe - if the weather looks decent - more bang, a touch of whimper at the end.

The teams are to blame not the Irish crooked refs giving more wins to Welsh sides than Irish sides in a season Wink

I don't like the crooked refs, they're too dumb to know it's us they should be letting win.

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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 4:05 pm

And one for Scarlet

The trademark for Racing 1882 is owned by Ovalto
https://tmdb.eu/trademark/010915783/eu/racing-1882

Racings website is owned and paid for by Ovalto
https://www.virustotal.com/en-gb/domain/www.racing92.fr/information/

Whistle

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 20 Oct 2015, 4:07 pm

Munchkin wrote:Do you have the attendance figures?

YES, they are on the link I posted above. Wales had 305,455 people attend their 4 pool games. Ireland had 283,140 attend their 4 pool games.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 20 Oct 2015, 4:11 pm

SecretFly wrote:The moral of this story is don't go blaming bad refs for schyte rugby.  Schyte rugby exists when players don't have the skills to do any better.  Bang, bang, wallop, bang, a little shimmy or three - maybe - if the weather looks decent - more bang, a touch of whimper at the end.  

The teams are to blame not the Irish crooked refs giving more wins to Welsh sides than Irish sides in a season Wink

I don't like the crooked refs, they're too dumb to know it's us they should be letting win.

The bit in bold, yes. It should not be down to the ref to sort out the empathy/spirit of the game, it should be down to the players. If teams went onto the pitch to play the best rugby they could, not to see how much nonsense they can get away with, then the whole sport would be better. Now all we need are refs who will not turn a blind eye to the infringements at the rucks/scrums/mauls.

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Post by Guest Tue 20 Oct 2015, 4:14 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Do you have the attendance figures?

YES, they are on the link I posted above. Wales had 305,455 people attend their 4 pool games. Ireland had 283,140 attend their 4 pool games.

Ah, we were talking at cross purposes. My fault for not being clear in what I was saying.

Ireland recorded the highest attended game, but overall Wales must have had they highest attendance. Not surprising really, considering home advantage, and travelling distance to England. I'm not knocking it. Think it is great for Wales.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 20 Oct 2015, 4:21 pm

marty2086 wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The principle is the same Marty and you know it. The IRFU pay the Irish refs and the Irish based players, yet if we listen to you it is not true. But now that SS is telling you that Dan Carter is getting paid by two different companies you are trying your up-most to prove him wrong.

What is the difference ?

It's a strong link, LD, with Ovalto being the investment holding company.


Jacky LORENZETTI
Founding President of TERREIS
Lausanne Hotel School
President founder of Foncia Groupe 1972 to 2008: IPO in April 2001 sale of its stake in April 2007
Founding president since 2000 Ovalto Investment holding company of the group's activities (real estate, wine, sport and finance)

Proof

Yep that is certainly proof, however it is proof of what I have been saying since the very start of this, Racing and Ovalto are two separate companies.

I legal terms I would have to think so. Otherwise how do they exploit the loophole?

Thank you.  This place is amazing, two pages of Marty and Fly telling me that they are all part of the same company, and finally we have reached a point where it is agreed that I was right way back a the start.

Oh well it has killed an afternoon in the office, and I think we now have a new thread for this sort of nonsense when the other Pro12 thread finally gets closed.

Then Scarlet you'll be happy to tell us who owns Racing 92?

Marty let's put it in simple terms. I own a car and a house. They are both owned by me but they are both different thinks.

Jacky boy owns Racing and he owns Ovalto, but they are two different things.

No matter how much you think it is wrong, that is the truth. They are legally different companies.
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Post by SecretFly Tue 20 Oct 2015, 4:22 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:The moral of this story is don't go blaming bad refs for schyte rugby.  Schyte rugby exists when players don't have the skills to do any better.  Bang, bang, wallop, bang, a little shimmy or three - maybe - if the weather looks decent - more bang, a touch of whimper at the end.  

The teams are to blame not the Irish crooked refs giving more wins to Welsh sides than Irish sides in a season Wink

I don't like the crooked refs, they're too dumb to know it's us they should be letting win.

The bit in bold, yes. It should not be down to the ref to sort out the empathy/spirit of the game, it should be down to the players. If teams went onto the pitch to play the best rugby they could, not to see how much nonsense they can get away with, then the whole sport would be better. Now all we need are refs who will not turn a blind eye to the infringements at the rucks/scrums/mauls.

No Lord.  That's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying the rugby isn't up to it.  The Welsh special ones phone in their performances because they've either had too much high altitude or too much ice when with Gatland... who beats them to death and therefore they take their well earned breaks in Pro12.  Their International form quickly dissipates and we're back to yawns and looking at watches to see when the next International window approaches.
The Irish special players do their own form of resting up for Europe - either in their snug cottonwool cocoons or  taking it easy through games, chillaxing, smoking the odd joint, that kinda thing Wink

So?  How do we change that?  Less famous, younger players used with more hunger in their bones and ferocity in their intent to make a name for themselves.

'NO!!!,' you shout!  'Can't be having that.  We Welsh want to see the stars.  Even though we know they'll probably be playing schyte, we want to see them.  We pay money to see them.  We want autographs after the game and things!!!'

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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 4:22 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:The moral of this story is don't go blaming bad refs for schyte rugby.  Schyte rugby exists when players don't have the skills to do any better.  Bang, bang, wallop, bang, a little shimmy or three - maybe - if the weather looks decent - more bang, a touch of whimper at the end.  

The teams are to blame not the Irish crooked refs giving more wins to Welsh sides than Irish sides in a season Wink

I don't like the crooked refs, they're too dumb to know it's us they should be letting win.

The bit in bold, yes. It should not be down to the ref to sort out the empathy/spirit of the game, it should be down to the players. If teams went onto the pitch to play the best rugby they could, not to see how much nonsense they can get away with, then the whole sport would be better. Now all we need are refs who will not turn a blind eye to the infringements at the rucks/scrums/mauls.

A lot of refs aren't turning a blind eye they just don't understand they are looking at an infringement

How many times do you see guys like Marler scrummaging at angle? Or binding on the arm? I seen Garces looking straight at this from a matter of inches away earlier in the RWC and didn't penalise it

Its like they are watching too much at once

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 20 Oct 2015, 4:23 pm

SecretFly wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Thank you.  This place is amazing, two pages of Marty and Fly telling me that they are all part of the same company, and finally we have reached a point where it is agreed that I was right way back a the start.

Oh well it has killed an afternoon in the office, and I think we now have a new thread for this sort of nonsense when the other Pro12 thread finally gets closed.

Our loophole is Four Persons in One God.  What's the problem? Wink

A Welsh loophole is declaring that Regions get absolutely no money or assistance from WRU but maybe do get some money.  
Another Welsh loophole is always hosting WCs that they don't host, and getting two Home games in a WC they're not hosting Wink  It's a peculiar world, Scarlet.  Enjoy it, it's not going to get any more sane.

Hug too true
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Post by LordDowlais Tue 20 Oct 2015, 4:27 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:The moral of this story is don't go blaming bad refs for schyte rugby.  Schyte rugby exists when players don't have the skills to do any better.  Bang, bang, wallop, bang, a little shimmy or three - maybe - if the weather looks decent - more bang, a touch of whimper at the end.  

The teams are to blame not the Irish crooked refs giving more wins to Welsh sides than Irish sides in a season Wink

I don't like the crooked refs, they're too dumb to know it's us they should be letting win.

The bit in bold, yes. It should not be down to the ref to sort out the empathy/spirit of the game, it should be down to the players. If teams went onto the pitch to play the best rugby they could, not to see how much nonsense they can get away with, then the whole sport would be better. Now all we need are refs who will not turn a blind eye to the infringements at the rucks/scrums/mauls.

A lot of refs aren't turning a blind eye they just don't understand they are looking at an infringement

How many times do you see guys like Marler scrummaging at angle? Or binding on the arm? I seen Garces looking straight at this from a matter of inches away earlier in the RWC and didn't penalise it

Its like they are watching too much at once

Are you telling me a ref who has been around as long as Nigel Owen's has does not know what he is looking at ? Please, pull the other one. No he lets things go, so that the game can flow for the "spirit" of it all. If players did not go onto the field with the sole intention of cheating, then the whole game would be better. It also does not help that the refs in the Pro12 are not up to the task of punishing the sides who base their games on cheating.

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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 4:31 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:The moral of this story is don't go blaming bad refs for schyte rugby.  Schyte rugby exists when players don't have the skills to do any better.  Bang, bang, wallop, bang, a little shimmy or three - maybe - if the weather looks decent - more bang, a touch of whimper at the end.  

The teams are to blame not the Irish crooked refs giving more wins to Welsh sides than Irish sides in a season Wink

I don't like the crooked refs, they're too dumb to know it's us they should be letting win.

The bit in bold, yes. It should not be down to the ref to sort out the empathy/spirit of the game, it should be down to the players. If teams went onto the pitch to play the best rugby they could, not to see how much nonsense they can get away with, then the whole sport would be better. Now all we need are refs who will not turn a blind eye to the infringements at the rucks/scrums/mauls.

A lot of refs aren't turning a blind eye they just don't understand they are looking at an infringement

How many times do you see guys like Marler scrummaging at angle? Or binding on the arm? I seen Garces looking straight at this from a matter of inches away earlier in the RWC and didn't penalise it

Its like they are watching too much at once

Are you telling me a ref who has been around as long as Nigel Owen's has does not know what he is looking at ? Please, pull the other one. No he lets things go, so that the game can flow for the "spirit" of it all. If players did not go onto the field with the sole intention of cheating, then the whole game would be better. It also does not help that the refs in the Pro12 are not up to the task of punishing the sides who base their games on cheating.

No that's not what I'm saying, refs regularly allow collapsed scrums, players laying in places they shouldn't etc but what I mean is that they have one set of eyes and the ARs at times are too far away

At scrums you have to watch the feed, binds, feet, wheel etc at rucks you have to watch the ruck, ball 9, defence etc

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 20 Oct 2015, 4:36 pm

marty2086 wrote:what I'm saying, refs regularly allow collapsed scrums, players laying in places they shouldn't etc

And we are just supposed to accept this are we ?

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 20 Oct 2015, 4:37 pm

Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The principle is the same Marty and you know it. The IRFU pay the Irish refs and the Irish based players, yet if we listen to you it is not true. But now that SS is telling you that Dan Carter is getting paid by two different companies you are trying your up-most to prove him wrong.

What is the difference ?

It's a strong link, LD, with Ovalto being the investment holding company.


Jacky LORENZETTI
Founding President of TERREIS
Lausanne Hotel School
President founder of Foncia Groupe 1972 to 2008: IPO in April 2001 sale of its stake in April 2007
Founding president since 2000 Ovalto Investment holding company of the group's activities (real estate, wine, sport and finance)

Proof

YES, but as SS has been trying to tell you, they are two separate entities. One is a rugby club, the other is another company altogether. Yes they are owned by the same person, but that is the loophole. Racing are not going to pay Dan Carter 1m a year, they are paying him half that, with the other half coming from another source, albeit, out of the same mans pocket, but that is the loophole, yes it stinks, but that is where we are. It is the same as the Provinces/Branches/Referees in Ireland all come under different things, but at the end of the day they all belong to the IRFU, what is the difference ?

In this case I would think Lorenzetti is the entity. I get what you're saying about the loophole, and if it's possible to get away with it, then a loophole it is.

Yes, the Provinces are owned by the IRFU, and the IRFU ensure that the Provinces play by the rules. No loopholes, just restrictions on what we can spend by enforcing how many NIQ we spend on, and in what positions they play.

It isn't the same, LD. If one of the Provinces somehow removed themselves from IRFU ownership, set up a separate company, and paid players via that company to bypass league rules, then you would be right.

The closest to it would be if there were a cap, and Leinster were under it because of Sextin's private backer being classed as independent sponsorship.

Also just for clarity, I believe most of the Scarlets players are sponsored by outside companies. Gareth Davies for example is sponsored by Cawdor Cars.
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Post by SecretFly Tue 20 Oct 2015, 4:37 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Marty let's put it in simple terms.  I own a car and a house.  They are both owned by me but they are both different thinks.

Jacky boy owns Racing and he owns Ovalto, but they are two different things.

No matter how much you think it is wrong, that is the truth.  They are legally different companies.

Oh we're going to Father Ted Elementary School? Wink Oh right, I'm good at simple....

The Car and the house are both different things. Correct.
They are both owned by you.
Where do you usually keep the keys of the car?

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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 4:43 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The principle is the same Marty and you know it. The IRFU pay the Irish refs and the Irish based players, yet if we listen to you it is not true. But now that SS is telling you that Dan Carter is getting paid by two different companies you are trying your up-most to prove him wrong.

What is the difference ?

It's a strong link, LD, with Ovalto being the investment holding company.


Jacky LORENZETTI
Founding President of TERREIS
Lausanne Hotel School
President founder of Foncia Groupe 1972 to 2008: IPO in April 2001 sale of its stake in April 2007
Founding president since 2000 Ovalto Investment holding company of the group's activities (real estate, wine, sport and finance)

Proof

Yep that is certainly proof, however it is proof of what I have been saying since the very start of this, Racing and Ovalto are two separate companies.

I legal terms I would have to think so. Otherwise how do they exploit the loophole?

Thank you.  This place is amazing, two pages of Marty and Fly telling me that they are all part of the same company, and finally we have reached a point where it is agreed that I was right way back a the start.

Oh well it has killed an afternoon in the office, and I think we now have a new thread for this sort of nonsense when the other Pro12 thread finally gets closed.

Then Scarlet you'll be happy to tell us who owns Racing 92?

Marty let's put it in simple terms.  I own a car and a house.  They are both owned by me but they are both different thinks.

Jacky boy owns Racing and he owns Ovalto, but they are two different things.

No matter how much you think it is wrong, that is the truth.  They are legally different companies.

No he owns Ovalto and through this he owns both Racing and Arena92, if its the truth then back it up

Again your using the absence of proof that Ovalto owns Racing as proof that Ovalto don't own Racing when in fact they own the trademark to their clothing line and their website domain.

If Ovalto don't own Racing then show me where it says that Lorenzetti and not Ovalto owns them?

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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 4:46 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:what I'm saying, refs regularly allow collapsed scrums, players laying in places they shouldn't etc

And we are just supposed to accept this are we ?

Its a judgement call, there are times when its the right thing to do and times it not

Refs regularly overlook or miss things they are and always will be fallible if you want error free officiating your following the wrong sport

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 20 Oct 2015, 4:52 pm

SecretFly wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Marty let's put it in simple terms.  I own a car and a house.  They are both owned by me but they are both different thinks.

Jacky boy owns Racing and he owns Ovalto, but they are two different things.

No matter how much you think it is wrong, that is the truth.  They are legally different companies.

Oh we're going to Father Ted Elementary School? Wink  Oh right, I'm good at simple....

The Car and the house are both different things.  Correct.
They are both owned by you.
Where do you usually keep the keys of the car?  

Wife's handbag most the time
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Post by SecretFly Tue 20 Oct 2015, 4:52 pm

LordDowlais wrote: It also does not help that the refs in the Pro12 are not up to the task of punishing the sides who base their games on cheating.
Which sides base their game on cheating?  You obviously have a list on your person in your house.... or maybe in the glove compartment of your car?

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 20 Oct 2015, 4:52 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:what I'm saying, refs regularly allow collapsed scrums, players laying in places they shouldn't etc

And we are just supposed to accept this are we ?

Its a judgement call, there are times when its the right thing to do and times it not

Refs regularly overlook or miss things they are and always will be fallible if you want error free officiating your following the wrong sport

Thats not an answer. Again you go around the houses and fabricate answers. I can accept the odd missed call or bad decision, but in the Pro12 it's the norm, and it decides games far too often. Because of this, teams try to cheat more to beat the cheats, it's a never ending circle. I was at the Liberty Stadium to watch Ospreys play Munster a few weeks back, the ref more or less allowed Munster to do what they wanted, even the players were looking at him in a bemusement. The ref had a barring on the result.

This I cannot stomach anymore, it's making our league a laughing stock. Anyway, how have I come to talk about referees in this debate, I have again been taken away from the original subject by members who sidetrack me because they have been caught out.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 20 Oct 2015, 4:54 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Marty let's put it in simple terms.  I own a car and a house.  They are both owned by me but they are both different thinks.

Jacky boy owns Racing and he owns Ovalto, but they are two different things.

No matter how much you think it is wrong, that is the truth.  They are legally different companies.

Oh we're going to Father Ted Elementary School? Wink  Oh right, I'm good at simple....

The Car and the house are both different things.  Correct.
They are both owned by you.
Where do you usually keep the keys of the car?  

Wife's handbag most the time

So an concealed offshore account in other words?? See? Corruption.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 20 Oct 2015, 4:57 pm

marty2086 wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The principle is the same Marty and you know it. The IRFU pay the Irish refs and the Irish based players, yet if we listen to you it is not true. But now that SS is telling you that Dan Carter is getting paid by two different companies you are trying your up-most to prove him wrong.

What is the difference ?

It's a strong link, LD, with Ovalto being the investment holding company.


Jacky LORENZETTI
Founding President of TERREIS
Lausanne Hotel School
President founder of Foncia Groupe 1972 to 2008: IPO in April 2001 sale of its stake in April 2007
Founding president since 2000 Ovalto Investment holding company of the group's activities (real estate, wine, sport and finance)

Proof

Yep that is certainly proof, however it is proof of what I have been saying since the very start of this, Racing and Ovalto are two separate companies.

I legal terms I would have to think so. Otherwise how do they exploit the loophole?

Thank you.  This place is amazing, two pages of Marty and Fly telling me that they are all part of the same company, and finally we have reached a point where it is agreed that I was right way back a the start.

Oh well it has killed an afternoon in the office, and I think we now have a new thread for this sort of nonsense when the other Pro12 thread finally gets closed.

Then Scarlet you'll be happy to tell us who owns Racing 92?

Marty let's put it in simple terms.  I own a car and a house.  They are both owned by me but they are both different thinks.

Jacky boy owns Racing and he owns Ovalto, but they are two different things.

No matter how much you think it is wrong, that is the truth.  They are legally different companies.

No he owns Ovalto and through this he owns both Racing and Arena92, if its the truth then back it up

Again your using the absence of proof that Ovalto owns Racing as proof that Ovalto don't own Racing when in fact they own the trademark to their clothing line and their website domain.

If Ovalto don't own Racing then show me where it says that Lorenzetti and not Ovalto owns them?

Ok yes you must be right Dougal. Get in touch with the FFR and LNR and let them know that you have it right, not them, and Racing are in breach of their salary cap.

Congratulations, hopefully you will be the saviour of the rest of us, as once Racing tumble the rest will too. And players wages won't be over inflated by these French clubs clap clap
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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 4:59 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:what I'm saying, refs regularly allow collapsed scrums, players laying in places they shouldn't etc

And we are just supposed to accept this are we ?

Its a judgement call, there are times when its the right thing to do and times it not

Refs regularly overlook or miss things they are and always will be fallible if you want error free officiating your following the wrong sport

Thats not an answer. Again you go around the houses and fabricate answers. I can accept the odd missed call or bad decision, but in the Pro12 it's the norm, and it decides games far too often. Because of this, teams try to cheat more to beat the cheats, it's a never ending circle. I was at the Liberty Stadium to watch Ospreys play Munster a few weeks back, the ref more or less allowed Munster to do what they wanted, even the players were looking at him in a bemusement. The ref had a barring on the result.

This I cannot stomach anymore, it's making our league a laughing stock. Anyway, how have I come to talk about referees in this debate, I have again been taken away from the original subject by members who sidetrack me because they have been caught out.

I'm not talking about the Pro12 I'm talking about the game in general. Where is this increase in cheating? Which incidents have incensed you?

Players push boundaries, McCaw has made a career out of it and is lauded for it

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 20 Oct 2015, 4:59 pm

SecretFly wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Marty let's put it in simple terms.  I own a car and a house.  They are both owned by me but they are both different thinks.

Jacky boy owns Racing and he owns Ovalto, but they are two different things.

No matter how much you think it is wrong, that is the truth.  They are legally different companies.

Oh we're going to Father Ted Elementary School? Wink  Oh right, I'm good at simple....

The Car and the house are both different things.  Correct.
They are both owned by you.
Where do you usually keep the keys of the car?  

Wife's handbag most the time

So an concealed offshore account in other words??  See?  Corruption.

Corrupt to the core, learnt it from my granny from Wexford Run
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Post by SecretFly Tue 20 Oct 2015, 4:59 pm

LordDowlais wrote: I have again been taken away from the original subject by members who sidetrack me because they have been caught out.

You've been given the runaround Lord. It's all in the loop.

What did people get caught out on? That more money is going to go to Provinces? I should think so. We need it after that WC! We need a good bit to get ourselves back in a good mood and prepare ourselves for four year's time.
Will Regions get any of the lovely profit you were talking about a month back that the WRU made for hosting the WC games?


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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 5:00 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The principle is the same Marty and you know it. The IRFU pay the Irish refs and the Irish based players, yet if we listen to you it is not true. But now that SS is telling you that Dan Carter is getting paid by two different companies you are trying your up-most to prove him wrong.

What is the difference ?

It's a strong link, LD, with Ovalto being the investment holding company.


Jacky LORENZETTI
Founding President of TERREIS
Lausanne Hotel School
President founder of Foncia Groupe 1972 to 2008: IPO in April 2001 sale of its stake in April 2007
Founding president since 2000 Ovalto Investment holding company of the group's activities (real estate, wine, sport and finance)

Proof

Yep that is certainly proof, however it is proof of what I have been saying since the very start of this, Racing and Ovalto are two separate companies.

I legal terms I would have to think so. Otherwise how do they exploit the loophole?

Thank you.  This place is amazing, two pages of Marty and Fly telling me that they are all part of the same company, and finally we have reached a point where it is agreed that I was right way back a the start.

Oh well it has killed an afternoon in the office, and I think we now have a new thread for this sort of nonsense when the other Pro12 thread finally gets closed.

Then Scarlet you'll be happy to tell us who owns Racing 92?

Marty let's put it in simple terms.  I own a car and a house.  They are both owned by me but they are both different thinks.

Jacky boy owns Racing and he owns Ovalto, but they are two different things.

No matter how much you think it is wrong, that is the truth.  They are legally different companies.

No he owns Ovalto and through this he owns both Racing and Arena92, if its the truth then back it up

Again your using the absence of proof that Ovalto owns Racing as proof that Ovalto don't own Racing when in fact they own the trademark to their clothing line and their website domain.

If Ovalto don't own Racing then show me where it says that Lorenzetti and not Ovalto owns them?

Ok yes you must be right Dougal.  Get in touch with the FFR and LNR and let them know that you have it right, not them, and Racing are in breach of their salary cap.

Congratulations, hopefully you will be the saviour of the rest of us, as once Racing tumble the rest will too.  And players wages won't be over inflated by these French clubs clap clap

Who said they broke the salary cap?

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 20 Oct 2015, 5:05 pm

Fair play Marty your like a dog chasing its tail, funny to watch to begin with but after a few hours it gets tiresome.

As many a dragon has said, I'm out.
ScarletSpiderman
ScarletSpiderman

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Post by Guest Tue 20 Oct 2015, 5:05 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The principle is the same Marty and you know it. The IRFU pay the Irish refs and the Irish based players, yet if we listen to you it is not true. But now that SS is telling you that Dan Carter is getting paid by two different companies you are trying your up-most to prove him wrong.

What is the difference ?

It's a strong link, LD, with Ovalto being the investment holding company.


Jacky LORENZETTI
Founding President of TERREIS
Lausanne Hotel School
President founder of Foncia Groupe 1972 to 2008: IPO in April 2001 sale of its stake in April 2007
Founding president since 2000 Ovalto Investment holding company of the group's activities (real estate, wine, sport and finance)

Proof

YES, but as SS has been trying to tell you, they are two separate entities. One is a rugby club, the other is another company altogether. Yes they are owned by the same person, but that is the loophole. Racing are not going to pay Dan Carter 1m a year, they are paying him half that, with the other half coming from another source, albeit, out of the same mans pocket, but that is the loophole, yes it stinks, but that is where we are. It is the same as the Provinces/Branches/Referees in Ireland all come under different things, but at the end of the day they all belong to the IRFU, what is the difference ?

In this case I would think Lorenzetti is the entity. I get what you're saying about the loophole, and if it's possible to get away with it, then a loophole it is.

Yes, the Provinces are owned by the IRFU, and the IRFU ensure that the Provinces play by the rules. No loopholes, just restrictions on what we can spend by enforcing how many NIQ we spend on, and in what positions they play.

It isn't the same, LD. If one of the Provinces somehow removed themselves from IRFU ownership, set up a separate company, and paid players via that company to bypass league rules, then you would be right.

The closest to it would be if there were a cap, and Leinster were under it because of Sextin's private backer being classed as independent sponsorship.

Also just for clarity, I believe most of the Scarlets players are sponsored by outside companies.  Gareth Davies for example is sponsored by Cawdor Cars.

Yep, although Sexton would be breaking league rules, rather than IRFU. IRFU have come out and stated that they sanction private investment because of the threat the T14 poses with rising costs. I don't see an issue with it so long as we aren't breaking any rules, and the last thing I want is the Provinces, or any Pro12 sides, getting heavily into debt in trying to keep up.

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