IRFU to spend even more money on their wages.

First topic message reminder :

Irish rugby bosses will hand the four provinces an extra €3.2 million (£2.27m) a year to combat the threat of France's big-spending superpowers.

Philip Browne, chief executive of the Irish Rugby Football Union (IRFU), admitted the four provinces are "all struggling" to keep pace with their French counterparts.

The IRFU reported a surplus in excess of €8.7m (£6.18m) owing to ticket sales, new broadcasting deals and Ireland's two-straight Six Nations titles.

Browne admitted the IRFU have a duty to keep raising investment into Leinster, Munster, Connacht and Ulster where possible.

"At professional game level it allows to start putting a little bit more money into the academy system and the elite player pool," said Browne.

"What we're trying to do with David Nucifora [performance director] is to try and drive the high-performance system through the age groups so that we have contact with kids at an earlier age.

"It obviously allows us to put a bit more money into the provinces who are all struggling to some extent in terms of financial pressures that are coming to bear because of the money in France.

"We're trying to make them financially viable and sustainable but at the same time we've got to try to put competitive teams on the park. So it's about all those things, it's really around the high-performance system and player contracts where that money goes."

In the 2013-14 season, the IRFU posted a surplus of €7.3m (£5.9m). A second-straight surplus leaves the organisation in rude health ahead of next month's Rugby World Cup.

Oh, and just to add a link about spending as our Irish friends on here like us to provide such things, here is the IRFU annual report:-

http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFU ... 201314.pdf
http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFU ... 014_15.pdf

Looks like the Irish will be spending the highest in Europe now.

As for the standard of the officials in the pro 12 been acceptable ?

How could anyone not see the benefit of having full time professional officials in charge of the games, the biggest problem with most officials is they all seem to interpret the rules differently, having full time professionals, paid a decent wage to do the job, would ensure over time that we end up with consistent interpretations of the rules,  regardless of who is in charge of the game.
Expecting part time officials to control a big money sport is plain crazy, the game went professional ages ago, its about time the officials where given their due part of this as without them the game is unplayable.

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Nope it means we get to keep the players we develop.The NIQ cap restricts how many elite players the provinces can recruit and this cap is being reduced so the only way we can increase the number of elite players is by producing them ourselves.It would not be good for the Pro12 to see the best Irish players go off to play in England or France.

So tell me, how often does this happen to the Irish provinces ? I can only recall Sexton, and now Paul O'Connell but he is coming to the end of his career anyway. So that is just Sexton. Ah yes, that is a mass exodus.

Like I have said, Leinster have just signed a Kiwi second rower, just for cover. It's things like this that I am on about.

Didn't Scarlets sign DTH?

Scarlets did, and we let Snyman and Jacobie Adriaanse go in order to have NWQ space, and cash to bring in DaiTH (by the end of the season I am preying I can make that name stick).

DaiTH? Good luck with that one

Yes, you're similar to Ulster, but we are being reduced by another NIQ spot. Piutau comes in and we have to let two go, although there is a little hope of a change in mind by the IRFU, and we might just be allowed to keep to the present NIQ.

Just asking, is the 40% tax break thingy still available to Irish players?

It is, Dave

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:You're seeing it. It's there in black and white. We can't break IRFU rules concerning NIQ's. So what if they signed a player for cover. It's a world cup year, and I'm not sure that they broke the NIQ in doing so. Ulster are up against it from next season on, because of the NIQ. The problem being which good players for us do we have to get rid because the NIQ is being further reduced by one. We're bringing in one new player, and so two must go!

But you see, this is exactly what it means, you can pay player X from what ever country, to come and cover for the WC, injuries ect. Look at the side Ospreys are putting out at the minute, where is their cover ?

Ospreys just signed Highlanders prop Ma'afu Fia

LordDowlais wrote:I do not use twitter or facebook.

The Irish on here will not accept we have problems in our league because the league as it is suits them. It's just a means of getting into Europe, the competition they adore over anything else. But what do I know, I am a troll.

Yep the Irish in here keep reverting to type and ignore any problems.

Why does anyone disagreeing with you constitute to us "not accepting we have problems in our league."

Everyone understands that the refereeing is not great but to suggest it's much better anywhere else is ridiculous. I've asked you a very simple question to name these incredible refs that seem to be hidden from us in the other leagues because they certainly don't ref on the international scene.

LD - the scots have no issue with the league either. Congratulations to the Irish for doing so well over the years Even if Glasgow won last year. Every team and country has an equal chance of success and an equal chance at the money.

Crikey!

marty2086 wrote:So its the IRFU and provinces fault that the regions and WRU take that approach? Thats like the provinces blaming the regions for the IRFU implementing the NIQ slots in the first place.

Also the AP sides can sign injury cover when they need it and it falls outside of the salary cap

There's nothing like feeding time at the troll enclosure.

Where's LD's beloved Chunkles or are LD and Chunky the same troll???

The plot thickens.

Pete330v2 wrote:There's nothing like feeding time at the troll enclosure.

Where's LD's beloved Chunkles or are LD and Chunky the same troll???

The plot thickens.

Yep I am a troll, thats me. I have an opinion so I am a troll.

Some of the Irish members on here are fecking muppets.

Pete330v2 wrote:There's nothing like feeding time at the troll enclosure.

Where's LD's beloved Chunkles or are LD and Chunky the same troll???

The plot thickens.

Nothing like watch these trolls banging on about other trolls. You boys seriously need a mirror

Ooooo touchy

Pete, the thing is with this place it is standard practice to point at someone with an opposition view point and scream 'Troll' at the top of your lungs. And if your lucky and there are a pack of you, you may even force those who have opposing view points to just give trying to debate.

LD, Still waiting on the names of these great refs in the other leagues that have "no influence on the game". I've asked 3 times now.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:LD, Still waiting on the names of these great refs in the other leagues that have "no influence on the game". I've asked 3 times now.

WTF, I do not know all their names, I just watch the games and see that the refs perform a lot better than the dross we have in our league. What will naming the refs prove anyway, unless it's just something you want to know.

It is of course something I want to know because I'm not seeing them.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:It is of course something I want to know because I'm not seeing them.

Well by Sky Sports and BT Sports and you can see them all you like.

I watch every game I can across the other top tier leagues. . I want to hear the names of the refs that you think are so good in the other leagues. Why is this so difficult to answer.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I watch every game I can across the other top tier leagues. . I want to hear the names of the refs that you think are so good in the other leagues. Why is this so difficult to answer.

Because I DO NOT KNOW THEIR NAMES. FFS, why are you being such a tool ?

I'm only asking a very simple question lol. So you claim that the refs in the AP and Top 14 are so much better but you don't know their names? Little odd.

You seem to have a much higher opinion of refs in the top 14 and AP than the fans of those leagues do. If we take just the AP for instance...Barnes and JP Doyle would be considered their top refs because they get the Int games. They are not well rated by AP fans.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Pete, the thing is with this place it is standard practice to point at someone with an opposition view point and scream 'Troll' at the top of your lungs.  And if your lucky and there are a pack of you, you may even force those who have opposing view points to just give trying to debate.

What's the debate?  That the IRFU are the root of all evil in the Pro12 league (shady refs, biased officials, cheating rule-breaking teams, controlling the Pro12 timetable, forcing Dragons to play on Sundays, over-paying their own players) plus probably greedy and selfish too in not sharing around some of their money with other clubs/regions in Pro12 rather than saving it all for Irish Provinces?

That's what the gist of the debate has been for me.  And you'd wonder why a 'pack' of us disagree?

Welsh Regions have been complaining about money now for the guts of two years - not enough of it - never enough of it.  Wanting it but refusing to be told what to do with it.  And that frustration in turn leads to all out war on the Pro12.  Everything that could be wrong with a League is wrong with it.... poor quality, players leaving, players not getting paid enough, players being paid too much, too big an influence for the IRFU.... officials too bad, playing days not the right ones, WRU trying to have too big a say; no trains leaving stations at the right time, over-priced tickets, under-priced tickets, booing at kickers, no booing at kickers...... it's all wrong    

And so the solution to the anger tantrums  between Welsh Regions and WRU over the last two years (and that's what they've been - tantrums at not getting your way in a cot fight)is to ridicule and attack an external Union. 

Better for IRFU to kill off the European competitiveness of its Provinces in order to come down to the funding levels of Regions?  Better for the Pro12 to crumble completely and play into the hands of AP and Top14, playing out a semi-Professional style low salary League, than for each Union and Nation in Pro12 to get its house finally in order and finance the game with clarity, generosity and realism?

"We refuse to be funded by the WRU on their terms!!! Therefore, the IRFU must stop funding their Provinces on their terms."

That's the gist of the debate.  Carry on with the debate.  But there'll certainly be a pack ready to attack the details of it.

You see SF, this is where you and your fellow countrymen get things wrong, you assume that we are attacking Ireland/Irish. When in-fact, the set-up that you have in Ireland is pretty darn good, and it suits you/Ireland/Irish.

The thing is your system does not suit the league, because, in said league, there are differently run subsidiaries, and they all clash. The IRFU supply the league with players, referees, ect. Scotland and Italy do half of what Ireland do, and Wales do not do what Ireland do.

The Irish, like the league the way it is, because at the moment they way it is run suits the Irish and the system they use. It does not suit the Welsh, but when we point out why it does not suit the Welsh, we get called trolls or tin hat waring loonies. See, if you and your countrymen just took a minute to show some understanding of where people are coming from, instead of just throwing stones, then we could all debate a little better.

So Wales are the odd one out?

P.s it isn't us that's throwing stones. That would be a few of you.

Munchkin wrote:So Wales are the odd one out?

You could say that, along with Glasgow and Treviso.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:So Wales are the odd one out?

You could say that, along with Glasgow and Treviso.

Why Glasgow?

Munchkin wrote:Why Glasgow?

Haven't they got a private owner ?

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Why Glasgow?

Haven't they got a private owner ?

No, I don't think so.

So, are you saying that because the Regions are the odd one out, the rest should change shape to make it an easier fit for the Regions?

Munchkin wrote:So, are you saying that because the Regions are the odd one out, the rest should change shape to make it an easier fit for the Regions?

No, what I am saying is, it should change to make it fairer for the privately owned teams.

What is fair though and who decides it?

Sin é wrote:What is fair though and who decides it?

Well, a salary cap we can ALL decide on would be a start.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:So, are you saying that because the Regions are the odd one out, the rest should change shape to make it an easier fit for the Regions?

No, what I am saying is, it should change to make it fairer for the privately owned teams.

So you are saying that the rest should change shape. Why should we change shape to fit the Regions? What is it that the Regions can't do that the rest of us can?

From what I can see, salary caps don't work. What the IRFU do in restricting importing players is far more effective at producing a level playing field as its visible.

Munchkin wrote:So you are saying that the rest should change shape. Why should we change shape to fit the Regions? What is it that the Regions can't do that the rest of us can?

Spend almost 10 million quid of the union's money on players.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:What is fair though and who decides it?

Well, a salary cap we can ALL decide on would be a start.

How is a salary cap going to keep the best Welsh players in the league?

And I think the league should have a group of fully pro referees.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:What is fair though and who decides it?

Well, a salary cap we can ALL decide on would be a start.

Why a salary cap? Do you really think the AP and T14 are good models? They aren't. The salary cap is too easy to abuse. A cap on imports is far more effective.

SecretFly wrote:Welsh Regions have been complaining about money now for the guts of two years - not enough of it - never enough of it.  Wanting it but refusing to be told what to do with it.  And that frustration in turn leads to all out war on the Pro12.  Everything that could be wrong with a League is wrong with it.... poor quality, players leaving, players not getting paid enough, players being paid too much, too big an influence for the IRFU.... officials too bad, playing days not the right ones, WRU trying to have too big a say; no trains leaving stations at the right time, over-priced tickets, under-priced tickets, booing at kickers, no booing at kickers...... it's all wrong  

Aggghhhh troll

The bit I quoted could almost be lifted from quotes from Irish posters during the 'HEC/RCC' debates, well if you change IRFU/WRU to LNR or PRL.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:What is fair though and who decides it?

Well, a salary cap we can ALL decide on would be a start.

How is a salary cap going to keep the best Welsh players in the league?

It all depends on where the salary cap is at. If the unions want to keep the best players in their country, then they should pay towards them.

TJ wrote:LD - the scots have no issue with the league either.  Congratulations to the Irish for doing so well over the years Even if Glasgow won last year.  Every team and country has an equal chance of success and an equal chance at the money.

Equal chance at what money, sorry?

LordDowlais wrote:And I think the league should have a group of fully pro referees.

And where would the money come from to pay fully pro refs (who would probably need about 50K per annum, considering it isn't a job for life).

PhilBB wrote:

TJ wrote:LD - the scots have no issue with the league either.  Congratulations to the Irish for doing so well over the years Even if Glasgow won last year.  Every team and country has an equal chance of success and an equal chance at the money.

Equal chance at what money, sorry?

You're back!

Is twitter broken?

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Why Glasgow?

Haven't they got a private owner ?

No, I don't think so.

So, are you saying that because the Regions are the odd one out, the rest should change shape to make it an easier fit for the Regions?

Hands up, that myth is my bad. I am the one who has said that they were privately owned in most the Pro12 debates. It used to be Edinburgh Gunners that were private, Glasgow were possibly going to follow suit, before the SRU took Edinburgh back.

LordDowlais wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:What is fair though and who decides it?

Well, a salary cap we can ALL decide on would be a start.

How is a salary cap going to keep the best Welsh players in the league?

It all depends on where the salary cap is at. If the unions want to keep the best players in their country, then they should pay towards them.

Salary caps are unworkable in leagues with different cost bases, different legislatures, different tax systems and where the entry teams have different priorities.

The Irish do well as they do not export their top talent. The IRFU pays for it. Under Roger Lewis, the WRU decided to pay Barclays instead. Before Lewis got really into it, i.e. up to 2010, we were doing OK.

Hopefully we will return to that level of common sense from the WRU and the Irish sense of superiority will further diminish once they realise their success was built on money and now the French and English have more than they do.

The problem is, is its pointed out that the IRFU have been able to make more money available for wages and the WRU haven't/won't- and this is just put forward as a 'bad thing' with no real clarity of thinking as to why. It seems more obvious that the bad thing is the poor management of Welsh Rugby that has led to their current financial impasse, which of course has nothing to do with the Irish provinces.

The implicit suggestion is that the Irish provinces should being themselves down to the Welsh salary levels despite the fact that that has been a disaster for the regions and let several of your best players move overseas. Even now, the Dragons are seeking permission to sell their best player for around £150k due to their financial situation. Why is that level of funding of the regions something we should emulate? It needs to be explained why the IRFU should seriously handicap themselves in terms of what they spend on players wages because the WRU and the regions are now suffering the effects of being poorly managed.

I am a massive fan of salary caps in general and in an ideal world we would compete on an even footing in European rugby across all Six Nations with the same number of foreign players per squad and the same salary cap, which would be rigorously enforced. I think that the English salary cap is a good idea and I am sad that is being undermined. The French salary cap is so high as to make no difference and allegedly big French clubs are extremely capable of supplementing salaries through other avenues anyway.

To ensure the continued success of Irish Rugby we need to a) be able to retain our best players for the purposes of competing in test rugby and b) continue to be competitive in the European Cup.

Those are the two drivers that determine the amount of money we spend on wages, because without doing those two things our business model will be in trouble. Any salary cap cannot compromise those two essential objectives for Irish Rugby. Thats what we need to do to survive and prosper in the currently very broken, very unideal world of European Rugby.

Can an argument be made as to why a) we shouldn't do that and b) why Pro12 rugby would benefit from Irish Rugby being as weak as Welsh Rugby?

I would take the position that the more money is spent keeping the best homegrown players from the Celtic Nations in those nations, the better. I would love to see competent management of the regions and the co-operation of the WRU bring Welsh spending on wages up to Irish levels. Bringing our spending down just means we're all in crisis together. Which just benefits nobody.

Munchkin wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

TJ wrote:LD - the scots have no issue with the league either.  Congratulations to the Irish for doing so well over the years Even if Glasgow won last year.  Every team and country has an equal chance of success and an equal chance at the money.

Equal chance at what money, sorry?

You're back!

Is twitter broken?

No, but Gwlad is down.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Why Glasgow?

Haven't they got a private owner ?

No, I don't think so.

So, are you saying that because the Regions are the odd one out, the rest should change shape to make it an easier fit for the Regions?

Hands up, that myth is my bad.  I am the one who has said that they were privately owned in most the Pro12 debates.  It used to be Edinburgh Gunners that were private, Glasgow were possibly going to follow suit, before the SRU took Edinburgh back.

Easy done. We all make mistakes, except for me










I wish

Does anyone know why the present owners wanted to invest in the Regions in the first place? To support rugby or did they hope that rugby would become like soccer in England?

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

TJ wrote:LD - the scots have no issue with the league either.  Congratulations to the Irish for doing so well over the years Even if Glasgow won last year.  Every team and country has an equal chance of success and an equal chance at the money.

Equal chance at what money, sorry?

You're back!

Is twitter broken?

No, but Gwlad is down.

Shame....

Must have heard of all the extra cash the Provinces are getting, and imploded. Happens.