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IRFU to spend even more money on their wages.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 19 Oct 2015, 1:15 pm

First topic message reminder :

Irish rugby bosses will hand the four provinces an extra €3.2 million (£2.27m) a year to combat the threat of France's big-spending superpowers.

Philip Browne, chief executive of the Irish Rugby Football Union (IRFU), admitted the four provinces are "all struggling" to keep pace with their French counterparts.

The IRFU reported a surplus in excess of €8.7m (£6.18m) owing to ticket sales, new broadcasting deals and Ireland's two-straight Six Nations titles.

Browne admitted the IRFU have a duty to keep raising investment into Leinster, Munster, Connacht and Ulster where possible.

"At professional game level it allows to start putting a little bit more money into the academy system and the elite player pool," said Browne.

"What we're trying to do with David Nucifora [performance director] is to try and drive the high-performance system through the age groups so that we have contact with kids at an earlier age.

"It obviously allows us to put a bit more money into the provinces who are all struggling to some extent in terms of financial pressures that are coming to bear because of the money in France.

"We're trying to make them financially viable and sustainable but at the same time we've got to try to put competitive teams on the park. So it's about all those things, it's really around the high-performance system and player contracts where that money goes."

In the 2013-14 season, the IRFU posted a surplus of €7.3m (£5.9m). A second-straight surplus leaves the organisation in rude health ahead of next month's Rugby World Cup.

Oh, and just to add a link about spending as our Irish friends on here like us to provide such things, here is the IRFU annual report:-

http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFU ... 201314.pdf
http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFU ... 014_15.pdf

Looks like the Irish will be spending the highest in Europe now.


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Post by PhilBB Thu 22 Oct 2015, 1:50 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Shame.... Very Happy

Must have heard of all the extra cash the Provinces are getting, and imploded. Happens.

Nah, it's just having a new server. It's good to see the IRFU educating its followers in that it is money that buys success and, looking at recent seasons, more money must be needed.
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Post by PhilBB Thu 22 Oct 2015, 1:52 pm

Sin é wrote:Does anyone know why the present owners wanted to invest in the Regions in the first place? To support rugby or did they hope that rugby would become like soccer in England?

Few invested in 'regions', most have been around since 1996.

Why? Because they love their teams and had some money.

Few make money out of soccer in England, so I'm lost as to the point of the question.

Our owners are just like your Good Auld Boys who top up the wages of the players or who pay for training facilities. No different.
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Post by ScarletSpiderman Thu 22 Oct 2015, 1:52 pm

Sin é wrote:Does anyone know why the present owners wanted to invest in the Regions in the first place? To support rugby or did they hope that rugby would become like soccer in England?

Agghhh troll. Whistle
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Thu 22 Oct 2015, 1:53 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Shame.... Very Happy

Must have heard of all the extra cash the Provinces are getting, and imploded. Happens.

Nah, it's just having a new server. It's good to see the IRFU educating its followers in that it is money that buys success and, looking at recent seasons, more money must be needed.
Toulon has educated everybody already.

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Post by PhilBB Thu 22 Oct 2015, 1:55 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Shame.... Very Happy

Must have heard of all the extra cash the Provinces are getting, and imploded. Happens.

Nah, it's just having a new server. It's good to see the IRFU educating its followers in that it is money that buys success and, looking at recent seasons, more money must be needed.
Toulon has educated everybody already.

Many of us knew how Munster and Leinster did it.
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Post by Guest Thu 22 Oct 2015, 1:57 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Shame.... Very Happy

Must have heard of all the extra cash the Provinces are getting, and imploded. Happens.

Nah, it's just having a new server. It's good to see the IRFU educating its followers in that it is money that buys success and, looking at recent seasons, more money must be needed.

Success earns rewards, rewards buys success, success earns rewards, rewards bu......... How it works.

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Post by PhilBB Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:01 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Success earns rewards, rewards buys success, success earns rewards, rewards bu......... How it works.

I'd agree, if each province had that opportunity. But they don't.

Connacht have had no success but huge reward. Ulster have won nothing for 9 years but their Government built them a free ground. Munster can't afford its agreed loan repayments (so had to reschedule, at a cost to the rest of the game in Ireland) and nobody can tell me how much Leinster are paying towards the redevelopment of the RDS or how much they pay to use it.

Therefore, all four are profiteering without hitting that succession of events that you highlighted.
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Post by Guest Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:03 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Success earns rewards, rewards buys success, success earns rewards, rewards bu......... How it works.

I'd agree, if each province had that opportunity. But they don't.

Connacht have had no success but huge reward. Ulster have won nothing for 9 years but their Government built them a free ground. Munster can't afford its agreed loan repayments (so had to reschedule, at a cost to the rest of the game in Ireland) and nobody can tell me how much Leinster are paying towards the redevelopment of the RDS or how much they pay to use it.

Therefore, all four are profiteering without hitting that succession of events that you highlighted.

Aww diddums. It's so unfair Sad


Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo

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Post by PhilBB Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:05 pm

Munchkin wrote:

Aww diddums. It's so unfair Sad


Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo

I'll take that reply as recognition that your previous post didn't apply to the Provinces of Irish rugby.

Just as long as it is recognised for what it is, then nothing more can be highlighted. Other than, of course, the complete shift in the balance of power away from the IRFU's blazers in terms of rugby's wider European appeal.
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Post by SecretFly Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:10 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Success earns rewards, rewards buys success, success earns rewards, rewards bu......... How it works.

I'd agree, if each province had that opportunity. But they don't.

Connacht have had no success but huge reward. Ulster have won nothing for 9 years but their Government built them a free ground. Munster can't afford its agreed loan repayments (so had to reschedule, at a cost to the rest of the game in Ireland) and nobody can tell me how much Leinster are paying towards the redevelopment of the RDS or how much they pay to use it.

Therefore, all four are profiteering without hitting that succession of events that you highlighted.

Profiteering.
So every side that draws up operating money from sponsors, TV rights, backer contributions, audience participation, merchandise, bank loans.... none of that should come the way of a team at all if it's not backed up by being 1st, 2nd or 3rd in a League?

I wonder how all that works in Super Rugby and Top14 and AP?

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Post by PhilBB Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:14 pm

SecretFly wrote:

Profiteering.  
So every side that draws up operating money from sponsors, TV rights, backer contributions, audience participation, merchandise, bank loans.... none of that should come the way of a team at all if it's not backed up by being 1st, 2nd or 3rd in a League?

I wonder how all that works in Super Rugby and Top14 and AP?

You seem to have spectacularly missed the point.

The post I responded to claimed that success was the basis for growth. I pointed out that this is not true in the case of the Irish provinces, certainly not in the way of them paying their way for investment in their facilities.
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Post by SecretFly Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:19 pm

What pays for it then?  Non-growth?  The IRFU are spending billions they never intend to pay back to anyone?

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Post by Sin é Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:19 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Sin é wrote:Does anyone know why the present owners wanted to invest in the Regions in the first place? To support rugby or did they hope that rugby would become like soccer in England?

Few invested in 'regions', most have been around since 1996.

Why? Because they love their teams and had some money.

Few make money out of soccer in England, so I'm lost as to the point of the question.

Our owners are just like your Good Auld Boys who top up the wages of the players or who pay for training facilities. No different.

1996 was when the English (football) Premiership was getting into its stride. And quite a few of the early entrants did make money. (for example, the bloke who owns Tottenham, and certainly JP McManus & Magnier made a fortune on Man Utd (and the Glaziers do still make money). Its only clubs like Man City, Real Madrid & Chelsea who throw good money after bad.

Thats the trouble with private ownership - the owners need to be prepared to top up the wages to survive (though I imagine the owners thought they would be making more money now than what they are doing).

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Post by PhilBB Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:21 pm

SecretFly wrote:What pays for it then?  Non-growth?  The IRFU are spending billions they never intend to pay back to anyone?

In a transparent environment, each individual organisation would pay for it themselves.

The four should be separate entities.
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Post by Sin é Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:24 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Success earns rewards, rewards buys success, success earns rewards, rewards bu......... How it works.

I'd agree, if each province had that opportunity. But they don't.

Connacht have had no success but huge reward. Ulster have won nothing for 9 years but their Government built them a free ground. Munster can't afford its agreed loan repayments (so had to reschedule, at a cost to the rest of the game in Ireland) and nobody can tell me how much Leinster are paying towards the redevelopment of the RDS or how much they pay to use it.

Therefore, all four are profiteering without hitting that succession of events that you highlighted.

All clubs play in grounds that have benefitted from government investment and in some case are owned by the cities they are in. Toulon get a grant of 3m euro from Toulon City as well as the use of a stadium. How much did the Ospreys put into the development of The Liberty?
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Post by Guest Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:24 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Aww diddums. It's so unfair Sad


Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo

I'll take that reply as recognition that your previous post didn't apply to the Provinces of Irish rugby.

Just as long as it is recognised for what it is, then nothing more can be highlighted. Other than, of course, the complete shift in the balance of power away from the IRFU's blazers in terms of rugby's wider European appeal.

Take it any way you choose, but you're wrong.

Remember, none of the Provinces stand alone. We are all owned by the IRFU. The IRFU have been very successful in embracing the professional era, and that success has produced success at the Provincial level, with 5 European Championships between Munster and Leinster. True that Ulster hasn't quite got there, but very close. So I guess we have been successful in reaching a final, but failed in terms of silverware. We have also been hugely successful in attracting and growing the fan base. Something we would not have done without relative success on the field. Connacht are team that has grown despite not getting anywhere near the funding of the other Provinces. It's only very recently that extra funding has been allocated to them. They are a success story, and one that continues to grow.

Don't you just hate success Very Happy

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Post by PhilBB Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:25 pm

Sin é wrote:

1996 was when the English (football) Premiership was getting into its stride. And quite a few of the early entrants did make money. (for example, the bloke who owns Tottenham, and certainly JP McManus & Magnier made a fortune on Man Utd (and the Glaziers do still make money). Its only clubs like Man City, Real Madrid & Chelsea who throw good money after bad.

Thats the trouble with private ownership - the owners need to be prepared to top up the wages to survive (though I imagine the owners thought they would be making more money now  than what they are doing).


I think that you've missed the point there. The owners should cover the necessary investments above and beyond the market rate paid by the International game for player access. The owners should not have to subsidise a Union wanting to get its supply on the cheap.

Nobody at my club bought shares with the thought of ever making a dividend on them, or at least none of the shareholders I have ever met or heard speak at AGMs etc. None.
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Post by SecretFly Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:26 pm

PhilBB wrote:
SecretFly wrote:What pays for it then?  Non-growth?  The IRFU are spending billions they never intend to pay back to anyone?

In a transparent environment, each individual organisation would pay for it themselves.

The four should be separate entities.

Crap Phi... that's an elementary understanding of company structures in the 21st century.... we of course get back to Racing buying Carter but giving him more money still through a different company owned by the owner of Racing. But it's different companies, see??? Wink So Racing ain't paying him twice..............Whistle

One man owning more than one company should be disallowed? Throw Branson in jail.

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Post by PhilBB Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:26 pm

Sin é wrote:

All clubs play in grounds that have benefitted from government investment and in some case are owned by the cities  they are in. Toulon get a grant of 3m euro from Toulon City as well as the use of a stadium. How much did the Ospreys put into the development of The Liberty?

Ospreys pay rent. It's taken directly from the ticket sales and shop sales.

Toulon's grant from VAR is transparent.

Irish rugby? No transparency.
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Post by PhilBB Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:27 pm

Munchkin wrote:

Take it any way you choose, but you're wrong.

Remember, none of the Provinces stand alone. We are all owned by the IRFU. The IRFU have been very successful in embracing the professional era, and that success has produced success at the Provincial level, with 5 European Championships between Munster and Leinster. True that Ulster hasn't quite got there, but very close. So I guess we have been successful in reaching a final, but failed in terms of silverware. We have also been hugely successful in attracting and growing the fan base. Something we would not have done without relative success on the field. Connacht are team that has grown despite not getting anywhere near the funding of the other Provinces. It's only very recently that extra funding has been allocated to them. They are a success story, and one that continues to grow.

Don't you just hate success Very Happy

Ulster won the European Cup as well, don't forget.

I love success. It's what pro rugby should be all about.

As long as it comes with transparency and is the fruit of one's own labour and risk, rather than from a decision made many miles away.
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Post by PhilBB Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:29 pm

SecretFly wrote:

Crap Phi... that's an elementary understanding of company structures in the 21st century.... we of course get back to Racing buying Carter but giving him more money still through a different company owned by the owner of Racing.  But it's different companies, see??? Wink  So Racing ain't paying him twice..............Whistle

One man owning more than one company should be disallowed?  Throw Branson in jail.

In professional sport, you'll note that there are regulations that prevent one owner controlling competing teams in the same competition.

Can you think why?

I'm a bit surprised to read an Irish contributor bemoaning third party payments, mind you.
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Post by ME-109 Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:30 pm

Phil loves success once its not Irish.

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Post by Guest Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:31 pm

PhilBB wrote:
SecretFly wrote:

Crap Phi... that's an elementary understanding of company structures in the 21st century.... we of course get back to Racing buying Carter but giving him more money still through a different company owned by the owner of Racing.  But it's different companies, see??? Wink  So Racing ain't paying him twice..............Whistle

One man owning more than one company should be disallowed?  Throw Branson in jail.

In professional sport, you'll note that there are regulations that prevent one owner controlling competing teams in the same competition.

Can you think why?

I'm a bit surprised to read an Irish contributor bemoaning third party payments, mind you.

You miss the point of that argument. It isn't so much about third party payments, but more about getting around the rules. Exploiting loopholes to gain an advantage over the competition.

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Post by PhilBB Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:31 pm

ME-109 wrote:Phil loves success once its not Irish.

Success, based on carrying your own risk, is brilliant.

Success based on a belief that it wasn't bought, however, is just bizarre.
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Post by PhilBB Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:33 pm

Munchkin wrote:

You miss the point of that argument. It isn't so much about third party payments, but more about getting around the rules. Exploiting loopholes to gain an advantage over the competition.

Like tax loopholes?

That LNR choose a salary cap made out of Edam shouldn't really be a concern to a nation without a salary cap and who pay for players with money not generated by themselves or without risk to themselves.

That's the point.
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Post by SecretFly Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:33 pm

PhilBB wrote:The owners should not have to subsidise a Union wanting to get its supply on the cheap.
The owners should subsidise the WRU for putting massive amounts of money into doing a lot of conditioning work and training that pretty much ups every player's rating that goes to them.

It's not a one way process.  Gatland and his boys up standards of players they bring in....and then give them back to owners - who, according to Gatland himself from his own lips, let standards slip again and he's back to square one everytime he gets them.

So...who should be paying WRU for upping the standards of the players that go to International camp?

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Post by ME-109 Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:34 pm

PhilBB wrote:
ME-109 wrote:Phil loves success once its not Irish.

Success, based on carrying your own risk, is brilliant.

Success based on a belief that it wasn't bought, however, is just bizarre.

You're funny and a just a little deranged..

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Post by PhilBB Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:34 pm

ME-109 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
ME-109 wrote:Phil loves success once its not Irish.

Success, based on carrying your own risk, is brilliant.

Success based on a belief that it wasn't bought, however, is just bizarre.

You're funny and a just a little deranged..

Well, that's the intellectual argument all sewn up.
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Post by Guest Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:36 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Take it any way you choose, but you're wrong.

Remember, none of the Provinces stand alone. We are all owned by the IRFU. The IRFU have been very successful in embracing the professional era, and that success has produced success at the Provincial level, with 5 European Championships between Munster and Leinster. True that Ulster hasn't quite got there, but very close. So I guess we have been successful in reaching a final, but failed in terms of silverware. We have also been hugely successful in attracting and growing the fan base. Something we would not have done without relative success on the field. Connacht are team that has grown despite not getting anywhere near the funding of the other Provinces. It's only very recently that extra funding has been allocated to them. They are a success story, and one that continues to grow.

Don't you just hate success Very Happy

Ulster won the European Cup as well, don't forget.

I love success. It's what pro rugby should be all about.

As long as it comes with transparency and is the fruit of one's own labour and risk, rather than from a decision made many miles away.

I won't forget. I was there on that history making day Very Happy

Transparency? I would like to see much more transparency, but lets not pretend that lack of transparency is something unique to the Provinces. It's across the board, at all the major leagues. You yourself bemoaned a lack communication from the Regions. Being kept in the dark.

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Post by PhilBB Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:38 pm

SecretFly wrote:
The owners should subsidise the WRU for putting massive amounts of money into doing a lot of conditioning work and training that pretty much ups every player's rating that goes to them.

It's not a one way process.  Gatland and his boys up standards of players they bring in....and then give them back to owners - who, according to Gatland himself from his own lips, let standards slip again and he's back to square one everytime he gets them.

So...who should be paying WRU for upping the standards of the players that go to International camp?

They do subsidise the Union for that by the loss of the players and the huge investment into the Academies. On top of that, the conditioning for the national game is in direct contrast with what is needed for the clubs as Gatland's squads are trained to peak during the AI and 6N, meaning fitness is an issue outside of those times. Club conditioning is all about seeing through the season whereas national team conditioning is the opposite. It's a real problem in Wales, compounded by Gatland's awful style of play.

As for upping standards, that's not something that I can agree with, sorry. The idea that 6 weeks here and 6 weeks there suddenly transforms the players is ludicrous.
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Post by PhilBB Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:39 pm

Munchkin wrote:

I won't forget. I was there on that history making day Very Happy

Transparency? I would like to see much more transparency, but lets not pretend that lack of transparency is something unique to the Provinces. It's across the board, at all the major leagues. You yourself bemoaned a lack communication from the Regions. Being kept in the dark.

It looked like you forgot when you wrote about not being successful but reaching a final.

The finances of PRW teams are transparent. The arrangements of the Provinces and the IRFU are less so, significantly.

My issue was about communication so you cannot claim that is analogous to financial dealings.
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Post by Guest Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:45 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

I won't forget. I was there on that history making day Very Happy

Transparency? I would like to see much more transparency, but lets not pretend that lack of transparency is something unique to the Provinces. It's across the board, at all the major leagues. You yourself bemoaned a lack communication from the Regions. Being kept in the dark.

It looked like you forgot when you wrote about not being successful but reaching a final.

The finances of PRW teams are transparent. The arrangements of the Provinces and the IRFU are less so, significantly.

My issue was about communication so you cannot claim that is analogous to financial dealings.

No, I didn't forget. It's just that Ulster men are not allowed to talk about it, or pretend it means something. Otherwise we are reminded that the English were absent, and so it doesn't really count picard

Are the finances of PRW transparent? Is this a new thing? Do you know exactly how much is paid for each player? We are less transparent than the WRU and the Regions? Break that down for me. Comparing like for like. I'm genuinely interested.

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Post by PhilBB Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:48 pm

Munchkin wrote:

Are the finances of PRW transparent? Is this a new thing? Do you know exactly how much is paid for each player? We are less transparent than the WRU and the Regions? Break that down for me. Comparing like for like. I'm genuinely interested.

Yes, the finances are transparent. Is it a new thing? No, it's a legal requirement.

Individual salaries are not listed but the combined salaries for the company are.

We've danced this dance before regarding transparency. You know full well the differences.
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Post by SecretFly Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:50 pm

PhilBB wrote:

As for upping standards, that's not something that I can agree with, sorry. The idea that 6 weeks here and 6 weeks there suddenly transforms the players is ludicrous.

Well when you compare what these players have done over the years at Regional level, and what they've then managed at International level, I'd say you're being ludicrous in saying Gatland and the WRU and the investment put in aren't a big part of their development as players.

Plus do the WRU contribute anything to grassroots level rugby from which Regions establish their academies? Do the WRU provide any contribution to academy budgets btw? I don't know the answer genuinely so?? Do they?

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Post by Guest Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:51 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Are the finances of PRW transparent? Is this a new thing? Do you know exactly how much is paid for each player? We are less transparent than the WRU and the Regions? Break that down for me. Comparing like for like. I'm genuinely interested.

Yes, the finances are transparent. Is it a new thing? No, it's a legal requirement.

Individual salaries are not listed but the combined salaries for the company are.

We've danced this dance before regarding transparency. You know full well the differences.


Laugh

Yeah, so it's no different then, and you can't compare like for like.

I also think your claim that WRU is more transparent than IRFU is hilarious and ironic, coming from you Very Happy

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Post by PhilBB Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:54 pm

SecretFly wrote:

Well when you compare what these players have done over the years at Regional level, and what they've then managed at International level, I'd say you're being ludicrous in saying Gatland and the WRU and the investment put in aren't a big part of their development as players.

Plus do the WRU contribute anything to grassroots level rugby from which Regions establish their academies?  Do the WRU provide any contribution to academy budgets btw?  I don't know the answer genuinely so??  Do they?

That's a really dumb argument regarding the relative success of the international versus domestic teams as it ignores the basic of rugby in that it is a team game. Since 2010, we've been a net exporter of talent (thanks to Lewis) that drastically weakened our domestic game but had no effect on the national team. Had the money been paid, by paying the market wage for player access, then the domestic teams would have been significantly stronger from 2011 onwards.

The WRU pay £150k to each of the four towards academy costs that are typically 5 or 6 times that. The WRU pay a significant sum into the grassroots of the game for which very little translates into the professional game.
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Post by PhilBB Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:55 pm

Munchkin wrote:


Laugh

Yeah, so it's no different then, and you can't compare like for like.

I also think your claim that WRU is more transparent than IRFU is hilarious and ironic, coming from you Very Happy

You seem to be wilfully missing the context of finances in this discussion.

The difference in financial reporting is enormous and you'd be wilfully disingenuous to try to think otherwise. Up to you, I guess.
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Post by Guest Thu 22 Oct 2015, 3:04 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:


Laugh

Yeah, so it's no different then, and you can't compare like for like.

I also think your claim that WRU is more transparent than IRFU is hilarious and ironic, coming from you Very Happy

You seem to be wilfully missing the context of finances in this discussion.

The difference in financial reporting is enormous and you'd be wilfully disingenuous to try to think otherwise. Up to you, I guess.

So you can compare? Excellent! Just post the difference between the two, and your point is proven ( and this is coming from someone who has claimed to know the finances of the Provinces enough to argue that players budgets are huge....).

As you know, I have looked at both the breakdowns of IRFU and WRU finances, and there's virtually no difference in how transparent they are. Check them for yourself. Although you must have already done so in order to make the claim you're making. So tell me how one is more transparent than the other?

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Post by PhilBB Thu 22 Oct 2015, 3:08 pm

Munchkin wrote:

So you can compare? Excellent! Just post the difference between the two, and your point is proven ( and this is coming from someone who has claimed to know the finances of the Provinces enough to argue that players budgets are huge....).

As you know, I have looked at both the breakdowns of IRFU and WRU finances, and there virtually no difference. Check them for yourself. Although you must have already done so in order to make the claim you're making. So tell me how one is more transparent than the other?

You've from being disingenuous to being misrepresentative. How pleasant..... and pointless.

I have not claimed to know the finances of the Provinces at all. That's been the very point all along. I do have a copy of Leinster's Branch Accounts, however, which seems to have caused this logic gap in your thinking.

You seem to have gone from seeking clarification on the finances of PRW teams to claiming no difference between IRFU and WRU. That's another logic leap. Are you doing this on purpose to hide your reluctance to admit the cloudy nature of Irish rugby financials or is this your genuine level of comprehension?

If you're genuinely being this confused (which would make me question why you seem to act like an enthusiastic puppy, or a child who thinks that he's won an argument) then you should seek to clarify one thing in your mind: how much does the IRFU pay for player wages and how much does the WRU pay for player wages.

Start with that one and come back to class to confirm your belief of "virtually no difference" whilst also explaining why you've removed PRW (you know, the context of the comparison with the Provinces) from your posts.

Thanks in advance.
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Post by SecretFly Thu 22 Oct 2015, 3:14 pm

PhilBB wrote:
SecretFly wrote:

Well when you compare what these players have done over the years at Regional level, and what they've then managed at International level, I'd say you're being ludicrous in saying Gatland and the WRU and the investment put in aren't a big part of their development as players.

Plus do the WRU contribute anything to grassroots level rugby from which Regions establish their academies?  Do the WRU provide any contribution to academy budgets btw?  I don't know the answer genuinely so??  Do they?

That's a really dumb argument regarding the relative success of the international versus domestic teams as it ignores the basic of rugby in that it is a team game. Since 2010, we've been a net exporter of talent (thanks to Lewis) that drastically weakened our domestic game but had no effect on the national team. Had the money been paid, by paying the market wage for player access, then the domestic teams would have been significantly stronger from 2011 onwards.

The WRU pay £150k to each of the four towards academy costs that are typically 5 or 6 times that. The WRU pay a significant sum into the grassroots of the game for which very little translates into the professional game.

No it ain't 'dumb', and it ain't 'ludicrous'.

The players play better for Wales because they get more high value coaching and conditioning.  It's no secret.  Gatland creates the stars... not the other way around. You might not enjoy hearing that concept put to you because it suggests WRU and their investments throw value back at Regions, rather than sucking it out of Regions.  
The players at Regions now, or the ones that have left Regions, are and were the price they are in the market because of exploits at International, not because of their work at Regional level.
Your argument is that WRU get away with 'using' Regional players below their true 'access' rate.  I say the WRU invested in these players and gave them their very value in the first place.

Second point.... even at £150k per Region, why should they pay that if everything is separate and Private and the Regions look after themselves based on their own sustainable budgets?

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Post by PhilBB Thu 22 Oct 2015, 3:20 pm

SecretFly wrote:
No it ain't 'dumb', and it ain't 'ludicrous'.

The players play better for Wales because they get more high value coaching and conditioning.  It's no secret.  Gatland creates the stars... not the other way around. You might not enjoy hearing that concept put to you because it suggests WRU and their investments throw value back at Regions, rather than sucking it out of Regions.  
The players at Regions now, or the ones that have left Regions, are and were the price they are in the market because of exploits at International, not because of their work at Regional level.
Your argument is that WRU get away with 'using' Regional players below their true 'access' rate.  I say the WRU invested in these players and gave them their very value in the first place.

Second point.... even at £150k per Region, why should they pay that if everything is separate and Private and the Regions look after themselves based on their own sustainable budgets?

No, the players play better for Wales because they are surrounded by better players. If you wish to claim McBryde and Howley as 'high value coaches' then be prepared for most of Wales to point and laugh at you. The stars are created by the academies before they ever get to Gatland, a man who has been lucky to ride the wave of the production of those academies.

It's funny that you claim those who left Wales are solely the internationals, priced because of their international exploits. It's an interesting mindset to think that they'd have no exposure to potential future employers were it not for the international game. The guts of the Welsh game have been as much ripped out by the loss of the non-international players from PRW, players that were unable to be kept because the internationals were being paid whilst not being used.

Furthermore, you miss the point that the market rate of payment from the Unions is not dictated solely by the player wages of those in the international squads. In transparent countries, like England and France, the payment is made regardless of the player wage.

Why should the WRU invest in its supply chain? That's the question you've just asked. Have a think about that for a moment as it is quite an incredible question.
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Post by ME-109 Thu 22 Oct 2015, 3:24 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

So you can compare? Excellent! Just post the difference between the two, and your point is proven ( and this is coming from someone who has claimed to know the finances of the Provinces enough to argue that players budgets are huge....).

As you know, I have looked at both the breakdowns of IRFU and WRU finances, and there virtually no difference. Check them for yourself. Although you must have already done so in order to make the claim you're making. So tell me how one is more transparent than the other?

You've from being disingenuous to being misrepresentative. How pleasant..... and pointless.

I have not claimed to know the finances of the Provinces at all. That's been the very point all along. I do have a copy of Leinster's Branch Accounts, however, which seems to have caused this logic gap in your thinking.

You seem to have gone from seeking clarification on the finances of PRW teams to claiming no difference between IRFU and WRU. That's another logic leap. Are you doing this on purpose to hide your reluctance to admit the cloudy nature of Irish rugby financials or is this your genuine level of comprehension?

If you're genuinely being this confused (which would make me question why you seem to act like an enthusiastic puppy, or a child who thinks that he's won an argument) then you should seek to clarify one thing in your mind: how much does the IRFU pay for player wages and how much does the WRU pay for player wages.

Start with that one and come back to class to confirm your belief of "virtually no difference" whilst also explaining why you've removed PRW (you know, the context of the comparison with the Provinces) from your posts.

Thanks in advance.

In other words you can't answer

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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 22 Oct 2015, 3:27 pm

Beyond thick

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Post by SecretFly Thu 22 Oct 2015, 3:32 pm

Transparent countries.........  England and France???

I think you once told me you do read and keep up to date on rugby stories.  Nothing you ever say concerning the 'integrity' of the English and French systems leads me to believe you ever read a word though.

The winner of the AP last season and one or two more were actively paying more to players than they were declaring.  The official forms said they were within the rules of their League but the payments seem to have bubbled over the top of the forms Wink
The French -- well Racing will only be paying Carter 500,000 allegedly...but he'll somehow manage to come out still with a guaranteed 1 million per year.  Neat!  Plus all the rumours going last year and into this one about shady dealings on the 'performance' front......


Don't talk to me about transparency in England and France, Phil.  I'm not about to remotely believe it.

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Post by Guest Thu 22 Oct 2015, 3:32 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

So you can compare? Excellent! Just post the difference between the two, and your point is proven ( and this is coming from someone who has claimed to know the finances of the Provinces enough to argue that players budgets are huge....).

As you know, I have looked at both the breakdowns of IRFU and WRU finances, and there virtually no difference. Check them for yourself. Although you must have already done so in order to make the claim you're making. So tell me how one is more transparent than the other?

You've from being disingenuous to being misrepresentative. How pleasant..... and pointless.

I have not claimed to know the finances of the Provinces at all. That's been the very point all along. I do have a copy of Leinster's Branch Accounts, however, which seems to have caused this logic gap in your thinking.

You seem to have gone from seeking clarification on the finances of PRW teams to claiming no difference between IRFU and WRU. That's another logic leap. Are you doing this on purpose to hide your reluctance to admit the cloudy nature of Irish rugby financials or is this your genuine level of comprehension?

If you're genuinely being this confused (which would make me question why you seem to act like an enthusiastic puppy, or a child who thinks that he's won an argument) then you should seek to clarify one thing in your mind: how much does the IRFU pay for player wages and how much does the WRU pay for player wages.

Start with that one and come back to class to confirm your belief of "virtually no difference" whilst also explaining why you've removed PRW (you know, the context of the comparison with the Provinces) from your posts.

Thanks in advance.

So, instead of coming up with the evidence to back up your nonsense (obviously you can't. There isn't any), you try and hide this fact with waffle, sprinkled with abuse, in the hope that your nonsense is lost. Obfuscation and distraction when you have been found out.

Just like the last time when you did a runner Very Happy

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Thu 22 Oct 2015, 3:35 pm

SecretFly wrote:Transparent countries.........  England and France???

I think you once told me you do read and keep up to date on rugby stories.  Nothing you ever say concerning the 'integrity' of the English and French systems leads me to believe you ever read a word though.

The winner of the AP last season and one or two more were actively paying more to players than they were declaring.  The official forms said they were within the rules of their League but the payments seem to have bubbled over the top of the forms Wink
The French -- well Racing will only be paying Carter 500,000 allegedly...but he'll somehow manage to come out still with a guaranteed 1 million per year.  Neat!  Plus all the rumours going last year and into this one about shady dealings on the 'performance' front......


Don't talk to me about transparency in England and France, Phil.  I'm not about to remotely believe it.

If they were not transparent about these things though, you would not have known them.
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Post by SecretFly Thu 22 Oct 2015, 3:38 pm

PhilBB wrote:

Why should the WRU invest in its supply chain? That's the question you've just asked. Have a think about that for a moment as it is quite an incredible question.

You're being tripped up on your own logic, as always happens when someone tries to present a holier-than-thou attitude after a lifetime of sin Wink

Nice sentence above. Try applying IRFU to it and it works as smoothly....

Finally, you're seeing the light.

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Post by SecretFly Thu 22 Oct 2015, 3:47 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Transparent countries.........  England and France???

I think you once told me you do read and keep up to date on rugby stories.  Nothing you ever say concerning the 'integrity' of the English and French systems leads me to believe you ever read a word though.

The winner of the AP last season and one or two more were actively paying more to players than they were declaring.  The official forms said they were within the rules of their League but the payments seem to have bubbled over the top of the forms Wink
The French -- well Racing will only be paying Carter 500,000 allegedly...but he'll somehow manage to come out still with a guaranteed 1 million per year.  Neat!  Plus all the rumours going last year and into this one about shady dealings on the 'performance' front......


Don't talk to me about transparency in England and France, Phil.  I'm not about to remotely believe it.

If they were not transparent about these things though, you would not have known them.

About what? Do you have the contracts now that I've looked for concerning Carter? Wink Transparency? Do you have the minutes of the meetings that supposedly wanted to keep the AP Cap Scandal undercover - for the good of the game. Whistle ? Transparency? Do you have details from the specificed French Club on the accusations made by the ex French player last year, or details of the ongoing investigation into the Pharmacy stores in Toulon? Transparency?

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Post by Guest Thu 22 Oct 2015, 3:57 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:Beyond thick

aha! Phils other half! Welcome back! Very Happy

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Post by Sin é Thu 22 Oct 2015, 4:28 pm

PhilBB wrote:

The WRU pay £150k to each of the four towards academy costs that are typically 5 or 6 times that. The WRU pay a significant sum into the grassroots of the game for which very little translates into the professional game.

So Pro players come fully formed out of the womb in Wales. They don't learn to play in their local clubs. Fascinating.
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